Audio Research discontinuing lower lines components?

May The Schwartz Be With You...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVz1kBnIDd0

Its a dog eat dog world. Always has been, always will. Mother nature can be cruel that way and always wins. We’ve just managed to change the paradigm to money and wealth as the main weapon to help determine the winners.   You can both play the game that you may have little control over and attempt to change it in any way you can by striving to do the right thing and not let the dark forces like greed and ego win. No wonder Star Wars is so popular? It abstracts human nature pretty well but in a galaxy far far away where things are really not that much different other than the technology and weapons in play.

Nothing to debate papa, one either believes humanity should be a slave to gold or one does not . Black and White thinking is like writing a film review  on the basis of one fuzzy snapshot of one scene .

There is nothing made or no job done that the Asian tigers can not make,or do, as well or better than anyone in the world .

jafreeman , you hit the proverbial nail on the head with your great post ! 

I agree that China is a leader in producing high quality products.  I have seen many examples of well-made Chinese audio gear.  They also make a lot of really cheaply-made gear, but, unlike the Mac stuff, it sells for a really low price.  In other words, with cheap Chinese gear, one gets a lot of value FOR THE MONEY, something that is NOT the case when one pays BIG bucks for shoddy gear.

Here comes the made in China bashing again.The Chinese people have been producing high quality products...for thousands of years. They have been innovators in just about everything ever produced throughout history since the dawn of man. Pick up a book or use your google search engine and look into the Chinese culture,past and present...you may be amazed at their accomplishments.

I also saw that show and I was surprised how shoddy the amp was put together. If I didn't know better I would have thought it was made in China. 

I don't know if WoM, or perhaps some predecessor, is responsible for hollowing out the McIntosh brand, but, I hope the same fate does not await the other brands under their roof.  Mac now employs extremely shoddy manufacturing processes and use ultra cheap parts in at least some of their gear.  

Google the television show "How it is Made" for the episode on the manufacture of the current 275 tube amp; if you know what you are looking at, it is a pretty sad story.  They no longer hand wind the output transformers, interleave the windings and put insulation between the layers of winding; a machine winds multiple transformer cores in a matter of seconds.  The wiring to both the input jacks and to the speaker binding posts does not really exist--rather, a printed circuit board is used and the coupling is done by pressing the circuit board into place.  I have not seen anything this shoddy anywhere else.  It is unbelievably cynical of the WoM folks to allow the filming of this manufacturing process--it is free advertising and most viewers won't even recognize the travesty being committed.  

Schubert ...,

Wow! 180 degrees out of sync. Love to debate you ... but not on this site,.

jmcgrogan2 ...

Yes, I had several posts deleted. None were in violation of "the rules." Most likely they don't want political discussions on the site. Can't say I blame them though. 

I would not be surprised if ARC lost a fortune in the past year due mainly to the total confusion generated by the introduction of the GS series to "sit alongside" or below the Reference series. Sometimes they even sit above the Ref series---like the GS 150. I for one, have decided not purchase any item of ARC gear until it shakes out. For example, how can ARC sell a new Ref 250se to an educated buyer if the buyer thinks they may come out with 300 wpc GS monoblocks in the next year or 2 that may be better, more powerful and fit in with a new GS look that will be standard across the board for all ARC products very soon. Don’t these foreign buyers (the money part of old and new Fine Sounds) have any business sense? Do they really think a retro design alone will quickly capture enough young "lifestyle" buyers and/or Asian buyers to offset the temporary or possibly permanent loss of the core U.S. and western European ARC buyer? Do they think they will capture the young "lifestyle" buyer with lots of $ by introducing him to the brand through a townhouse in a cool city--when in fact that new buyer is not so much into sound as the image of quality, say perhaps the higher end McIntosh gear with their cool faceplates.
WOM should have been and should be more forthcoming about a clear goal of the GS series. If they wanted to introduce a new look, they should have announced its clear place in the ARC hierarchy and come out with the new line across the board---all within 1 year. That way they would not have holdouts like me who would have purchased last year or this year, but are afraid to. I feel bad for Dave Gordon and the ARC team. These bean counters have foolishly and needlessly put them in a bind. They push ARC to sell, but handcuff them with incredibly self-defeating business plans. Maybe someone inside WOM will get it and formulate a clear and profitable business plan which takes into account ARC’s niche in the marketplace. Maybe someone will come in and purchase ARC, straighten out the mess and make some money in the long run. But for now I, and I am sure others, are lost and in a holding pattern
ARC devotees love the great engineering that comes out of Plymouth which usually results in great sounding products at a fair price. We do not care for more and more expensive cutting edge advertising and we don’t want to pay for townhouses across the world that are set up mainly for the bling of McIntosh faceplates. ARC will never sell nearly as much as Mac that way. (Mac is now, in addition to being the hoped for domain of the rich "in" crowd at the townhouse, being sold at Magnolia stores in Best Buys ---say what?--another brilliant idea).
WOM should stop pushing ARC to sell to a crowd that will never be interested. ARC will always sell enough to music lovers young and old who appreciate great sounding gear and don’t mind that it is not a "lifestyle" product and indeed requires some effort if and when a tube fails.
ok---I’m done.

"No changes from the basic circuit design from years past"

I guess that is why my audio technician says he doesn't understand why people buy new ARC gear. He claims the older equipment is better than what they are making now.

HiFi products in general are a luxury, and ARC is more of a luxury brand now than ever before, even though their MN headquarters and plant reside in a light-industry business park of single story buildings with modest office fronts. I have been to their parts desk/freight door and have seen the dozens of their white boxes with blue lettering waiting to go out.  Their prices are not high due to inflation--there hasn't been any in years--but to the ever-shrinking middle class that is surviving not on pay raises, but on borrowing. Housing, food and clothing prices have gone up and up, with salaries and wages staying flat--for decades.  There is a much smaller segment of America that can go out and buy a luxury item, so WOM/ARC is going to target an upper-income, international market.  There's a lot of money out there, but in the hands of fewer people.  This should not be a surprise, unless you get your news from the channel that will accuse you of having class envy.     

I think Bernie Sanders had my posts deleted.  LOL!

Wow! Look at all the removed posts! My last post was deleted!

Heavy moderation here, must be someone throwing some money Audiogon's way to make things look as they wish.

oregonpapa, you had any of your posts deleted? I doubt it.
Maybe ARC is on the case. Time to make this thread disappear.

Wrong, people are in effect "herded" into areas where money goes , if there is supply and demand its in people not dollars .
Austrian is a fantasy, there is not ever been such a thing as a free-market nor will there ever be .
Adam Smith himself ,under pressure, admitted "invisible hand" was the British Empire .That doesn’t mean Keynesian econ is all that either, in any event our debt is a function of "crony Capitalism " .
" Unfunded" is like Austrian, a fantasy, few strokes of a pen= what SS ?. what Medicare,, What VA?, what penion, etc,etc etc
The steaks cost 50 bucks because the material used in agriculture is price controlled by Monsanto. Cargill ,etc,etc
and the market will bear it in CA. Goes double for the college .

Schubert ...

I've been in the real estate business for the past 38 years. I can assure you that real estate firms do not control the prices of houses. Supply and demand does. And quite honestly, if you think free market economics (Austrian School) takes a back seat to Keynesian economics, all one has to do is take a good look at the national debt of 20 trillion and unfunded liabilities in excess of 200 trillion. 

Hopefully there isn't anything offensive in the above post that would cause it to  be removed by the mods. 

Again ... why are steaks over 50 bucks for three steaks at Costco, college tuition over 40 grand a year and a new ARC REF-6 four thousand dollars more than what the REF-3 cost in 2008?

don c55, very well put !
Oregonpapa, real estate firms control prices on a what the market will bear basis and that alone . Same house in rustbelt city under 100K .
There is little more discredited than Austrian School . Only socialization is Private Firm losses to public debt .

ARC has not been the same since the founder passed and the company was sold.

Now all the "upgrades" are expensive capacitors that take 500 hours to "break in"!

No changes to the basic circuit designs from years past.

There is little affordable audio equipment from anyone today because, the middle class was wiped out, and only old farts have home stereos. 

orgegonpop, profits are not evil per se , amounts made by Wall Street are profoundly so .

Asian Markets are stronger because serious music is FAR more popular in Asia than USA . Percentage of Japanese who listen to Classical Music
is 4 times what it is in USA . 

In the US, interest in audio is waning and this would include both the high end and lower-priced markets.  This is NOT the case in Asia where new money is being made.  In particular, the ultra high-end market is doing quite well in Asia.

Supposedly, Audio Note (uk) sells more of their top end stuff in Vietnam than they do in the US.  I suspect that the Asian consumer is quite different from US buyers. There, a purchase is treated more like an investment--the buyer intends on holding on to the product for a very long time and high quality is important. The item will NOT be replaced in a few years. Brands, like Audio Note, are favored because the manufacturer DOES not come out with new upgraded versions after a short time period which means that the purchase holds its value.  

I don't think that Audio Research fits this model well; they fairly frequently upgrade their gear.

cleeds
No bashing my friend. I call it get the bang strategy! 
Got around servicing SP-3(great preamp used to be affordable!) myself with no help of ARC. Vinyl engine did it all with schematics and circuit elements IDs. Chris from partsconnexion(Sonic Frontiers) was also very helpful.
If you send unit to ARC to repair -- they'll be happy and friendly, but if you're asking questions and parts they won't pick up phone. Same thing happened to VTL and especially Accuphase of US(worst s-holes on the planet!). I totally understand get the bang strategy in details: if you really want to bang someone ye gotta be very nice and polite. Listen to all these commercials on TeeVee and learn...
Sorry but no need for their 'friendly brainwash' -- savvy myself and ain't their 'female dog'. Serviced legendary PH1, PH3s -- great units(used to be affordable), and happy to say no need any ARC help at any time.

Its not hard to get good sound these days. If you are targeting high end, whatever that means, you probably have to be pricey and build Lamborghinis. But how many people really want or need a Lamborghini? Gotta make your money somehow.

Really sorry to hear that this has affected one off my favorites  ARC to such an extent though. Should have left good enough alone IMHO. But that ain’t the way things go  these days though.

Even one of my other favorites, good old blue collar OHM has raised prices considerably in recent years, at least for new stuff, but they also provide many ways to get the same quality sound for less via upgrades, trade-ins, refurbs, sales etc.     Gotta look out for your customers always.  That's the main thing.

I haven't found this to be true at all, either with new units or older ones. Do you have any actual experience that you can cite, or is this just the usual ARC-bashing that's so common here?

What do you think??   Not true from my ACTUAL experience.

No biggie. They've also become less reliable, less helpful and certainly less useful when it comes to servicing discontinued units. 
Figure they will become same level brain-washers as other companies. They're not alone and there will be certainly more. 
EBM, are you ready for nu ARC REF?

Great points jmcgrogan2 - good job expressing economics.  I am ready for a revolt!  

The other issue for a company like ARC is the ceiling they reach when economies of scale have run out.  The necessary step to keep growing and making money is to reinvent, innovate, and have a long term growth plan.  That takes cash and upfront investment.  Don't forget about rising costs Jmcgrogan mentioned because that is reality!  So now for a fictitious example, maybe they were spending 31 cents on every dollar they made,  At some point to maintain that ratio or improve it, again, you need a plan.  You sure as hell cannot survive if it goes the other way.

 Now I could be wrong about ARC reaching their ceiling but when your brand is is global with a  good distribution network there are not a lot of gaps to fill.  Time to sell to new owners who have a strat plan and rarely if ever is it business as usual.  My favorite audio company Thiel is another example.  But they are going the other way, value versus premium.  

Interesting information from Elberoth.... 

"The market obviously wants to spend a lot more money on gear these days"

I agree with you're statement. The 64k question is why?

oregonpapa, no need to be so defensive for ARC. We all know that you love ARC.

As I mentioned in my first post, ALL high end companies are following this business model. Perhaps due to the lesser numbers of audiophiles, and the lack of desire to compete with Chinese products, but all high end companies are spiraling upwards at an alarming rate.
Nordost came out with Odin line, Tara Labs released all their Grandmaster stuff, even my favorite company, VAC, released their Statement line with ridiculous pricing.

I don’t blame the high end market, why shoot the messenger? It is the economy that is driving them to change their business model. Adapt to what the market demands. The market obviously wants to spend a lot more money on gear these days.
It is NOT a simple matter of inflation though.

Elberoth2,

What do you think they did to kill the cash cow?

taters,

They did. But it is for sale again. Supposedly they are loosing money on ARC now. They killed the cash cow ARC used to be when Fine Sounds first bought it.

Oregonpapa,

ARC wishes they could sell a million units of their 30k preamp. I would be surprised if they sold over 1000 units worldwide.

Elberoth2,

I thought Fine Sounds just acquired them a few years ago. Are you saying they are for sale again? Plus they just recently discountinued there lower priced line. This all seems to be happening to fast.

From what I’ve heard, ARC is for sale since October 2015.

They had introduced the new, much priced higher Galileo series, discontinued the budget products, and sales have just collapsed worldwide.

^^^ Sorry, but you guys are looking at apples vs oranges. The top of the line ARC preamp is a different animal.  One box vs two. More electronics and state of the art doesn't come cheap. For those who can afford 30k for a preamp, more power to them. If ARC dealers can sell a million of them at 30k more power to them as well. Its called capitalism ... and believe it or not, even in today's world, capitalism isn't a dirty word. 

oregonpapa, top of the line is top of the line, don't let model numbers confuse you.
2008 ARC's most expensive line preamp was $10K.
Today, ARC's most expensive line preamp is $30K.
Forget the names, just look at the cost.

^^^ I don't want to get into a pissing match with you rodman ... but where can you find a suitable building these days in Milan, Tokyo or Berlin for less than "multi-millions?" 

And by the way, I don't think the employees of ARC are enjoying those "rooftop gardens" in Minnesota this time of year. 

Do you belong to the "profits are evil" crowd???  How's Bernie Sanders looking to you these days?? *lol*

@oregonpapa-  Yep!  Prices certainly do go up when a company starts buying multi-million Dollar buildings in Milan, Tokyo, and Berlin, like they did in downtown New York City.   Then decks them out with indoor pools and roof-top gardens.     I didn't mind spending my money for those great sounding ARC preamps I owned, years back.   Damned if I'd invest in Fine Sound Group's excesses though.