Audio Forums, On-line Store Fronts, and the Art-of-Deception


I have absolutely no problem with dealers on Forums in general; in fact, I think they perform a very important role in providing information to buyers about their product and insights about the competition. The key is to maintain full disclosure and an environment that encourages open discourse.

However, I am curious as to whether other members of our hobby have observed "supposed" Audio Forums that in reality are nothing more than a store-front for the Forum owner's equipment dealership which, in turn, uses business practices established to cloak the owner's profit objectives to appear as unbiased forum commentary. Do others feel this way or am I seeing things wrong?

I see the approach going something like this:

1) Start an Audio Forum with a few colleagues to help with the scheme;
2) Have the owner run large amounts of audio gear through their room for very short auditions to create the "appearance" of a knowledge-base to be used, in turn, to create the "appearance" of credibility regarding the advice offered by the Owner on the forum;
3) Have the Owner's colleagues play the role of shills, cheering the Owner's advice and the unsuspecting member's purchases from the store-front, as the Owner goes about denigrating the product he doesn't sell and lauding the product he does; 
4) Run the Forum in a manner that immediately quashes anyone who challenges the absurdity of the Owner's comments by shutting down threads and banning all challengers to the absurdity under the guise of keeping the forum a friendly place to exchange objective views.

I obviously consider this business model to be.....(well I won't use the words I am thinking). I would like to say, however, I do find humor in the ignorance of the approach strictly as a commercial enterprise.  

Sadly, I believe these types of business practices are often used on less sophisticated customers in today's retail world, but high priced audio gear is typically purchased by fairly astute individuals. As such, the model I describe above is the opposite of what an intelligent business person would develop to serve a sophisticated customer base. Yet we see this kind of nonsense employed in an attempt to sell sophisticated products to sophisticated people.

Maybe it just shows brains, business acumen, and ethics go hand-in-hand.

In the mean-time, a word of caution to all those fellow hobbyists looking for an objective advice on line; it is more important than ever to remember the time-tested cliches:

--caveat emptor
--follow the money
--things are not always as they appear

and so on.






wattsperchannel
I stared reading this thread and realized I could be listening to music instead.

Not to dismiss the intent or the importance of this issue, but on a Sunday, on a non-workday? I'd much rather be listening to music than trying to solve an issue that won't ever be resolved.

Happy Listening!
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I love money but I despise using underhanded tactics to attain money. These two are also very different things. Evil is spawned from depravity; its effects are many. The pursuit of money of its own accord is not the problem.


Technically the correct saying is, "the love of money is the root of all evil." Which is a different sentiment from "money is the root of all evil."

Good point Jerry, if people are being too nice they have something to gain...your $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$!
"I know money is the root of all evil
Do funny things to some people
Give me a nickel, brother can you spare a dime
Money can drive some people out of their minds!"

Moneymoneymoney by the O'Jays

I thought it was truly weird when (I think it was) Mazda used this behind one of their tv commercials.  Given the rest of the lyrics, it didn't seem an intelligent choice...in fact, downright disturbing, as if they wanted to toss feces into your face and see if you still smiled...a true WTF moment.

Google for the rest, and it speaks for itself.  Still haunts me, and does inform my viewpoint on things financial...

...'Course, they only used the refrain....

"Money, money, money....MONEY!"

Buyer, do more than beware....be near paranoid.  Just sayin'...;)
Liking sites like AG or AA and also wanting a venue void of conflict are by no means mutually exclusive.

knghifi
1,408 posts
05-30-2016 4:26pm
@bifwynne,

"Agon is a FREE INTERNET OPEN ACCESS website, do you understand what that means? For all we know, you can be a dealer or Queen of England ... Members can identify themselves but without a thorough bad ground check, it’s meaningless."

Can one assume a "bad ground check" is a Freudian slip?

But seriously, who cannot like sites like this and say AA and Stereophile? It’s the action. Hel-loo! 



@knghifi -- I think we are talking past each other.  I agree with you that Audiogon cannot be the truth or full disclosure police.  

That said, as I mentioned above, in the past, many reputable members who happened to be dealers or manufacturers oftentimes voluntarily identified themselves as such.  I hope any member who catches this post and who happens to be a dealer or manufacturer consider my suggestion, especially if he or she makes an equipment recommendation in which they have a vested interest.  



BIF
@bifwynne, 

Agon is a FREE INTERNET OPEN ACCESS website, do you understand what that means?   For all we know, you can be a dealer or Queen of England ...    Members can identify themselves but without a thorough bad ground check, it's meaningless.
@knghifi , you just posted:
That's fine and dandy but do you think Agon is going to waste time and
Answer:  NO.  Hence, all we can do is hope that manufacturers and dealers will disclose their status for the sake of full disclosure and transparency.  

I admit to having been away for a while.  There are many new names I haven't seen before.  Others have posted that there are a lot of dealers who are posting comments in the Forum.  I hope they voluntarily disclose their status, especially when recommending gear they sell or manufacture.  
I think Audiogon should require folks with potential conflicts of interests to disclose such information.  And regardless of whether Audiogon makes such a rule, it would be courteous if folks with commercial interests would disclose such information.  

That's fine and dandy but do you think Agon is going to waste time and money performing a background check on a FREE website?
Perhaps just wishful recollection, but I seem to remember that several years ago, either because of simple courtesy, custom and practice, or perhaps because of prior Audiogon rules, dealers and manufacturers disclosed their commercial interest.  For example, Ralph Karsten made no secret that he was associated with Atmasphere. Or Duke LeJuene disclosed that he owned Audio Kinesis.  

I think Audiogon should require folks with potential conflicts of interests to disclose such information.  And regardless of whether Audiogon makes such a rule, it would be courteous if folks with commercial interests would disclose such information.  

BIF
Women: For + Golf: For + Politics: Against = Divorced ;-)

@sbank , Divorced, Married, Single, it doesn't really matter.

Just as with everything else in life, there is positives and negatives to everything. I am married, and some days that's great, some days I envy the divorced. I'm sure many divorced/single feel the same way.

That's probably for another forum though. ;^)
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kng,


Ummm, that's basically the concept this thread discusses---A member funded, not-for-profit, hobbyist only discussion forum.
What does anyone expect from a FREE internet site? 

wattsperchannel, why don't you start an exclusive audiophile website, do personal background check on all members and fund it yourself?
Caveat Emptor, well said. In one of my writing courses in college I'll never forget a professor talking about "nothing is objective, if you think one source has the straight story, you're wrong. You need to read both sides...the extremes, then form your own conclusion."
New York Times balanced with the Wall Street Journal, National Review balanced with Mother Jones etc. 
blb, 

As my OP states, these are personal thoughts based on personal observations; my objectives are awareness and open, honest discussion among hobbyists--pure and simple. Also in the OP, I ask if I might be seeing things wrong. Based on many of the posts, I am not.

My decision to not be specific has been explained---namely, I prefer pursuit of the objectives stated above as opposed to wasting time arguing with the source of the problem.  

You are correct, there is no doubt I abhor the behavior I describe (I certainly have made that clear). However, I have no interest in "getting even" with anyone (this is also why I have no interest in focussing on any particular forum). 

I have no idea why you think I am a shill.  To the contrary,  I am proposing an alternative approach to the "dealer-controlled forum" that would intentionally exclude such industry participants. I am am strictly a hobbyist with a bug up my bottom when it comes to candor.

I feel I have made my interests clear--I am sorry you find this so troublesome.
I wonder where you got your info. You clearly have an axe to grind against someone in particular but don’t have the guts to stand behind your claims, accusations and assumptions. I’m betting that you are the shill trying to hurt someone for whatever advantage you or your cohorts may gain.....Or maybe you are just bitter and trying to get even.
@jmcgrogan2 
Women: For + Golf: For + Politics: Against = Divorced ;-)

Cheers,
Spencer
I think the 'super' shills are fairly obvious to spot. You will note that 428 of their 456 posts on Audiogon are on one thread dedicated to Brand X. Where Brand X is the best thing in the Universe, and music never existed before Brand X came along.
I can think of at least 3 members right off the bat, primarily cable related. Where the cables are so incredibly good that you don't even need electronics or speakers to enter 'heaven'.

Yeah, they are irritating, but after a while the regulars find them amusing. I'll read them, just like the funny papers. Sure a few newbies will be scammed along the way, that's part of the initiation process.

However, some shills can sometimes be disguised as overly-enthusiastic audiophiles. Again,  time and experience is the only teacher. There are only a handful of members who I know from experience over the years, whose opinion I hold in high regard. Most of these gentleman I chat with offline as well.

Sure, a world were everyone were honest and could be trusted would indeed be a wonderful world. I think that could be said for any avenue though, politics, cars, boats, relationships, etc.
I believe that deceit is a common human trait though, and has been bred into the human DNA. You can find deceit going back in history to the Trojan horse, probably even earlier.
I believe any attempt to eliminate common human traits will be an unsuccessful exploit. Human instincts will always win.
sw,

Yes I am not aware of any owners that don’t disclose themselves as dealers. That is not my point and I am sorry if I gave that impression. Its about the way the forums are run as described in points 1-4 in my OP.  Its just not cool IMO and I long for a more hassle free way for hobbyists to share views without the crud.
I'm curious, because the OP clearly hinted which forum he was (mainly) referring to.

And if I got the hint correctly, the owner of that forum makes it very clear that he's an audio dealer. So the situation there doesn't seem very sneaky to me.
Precisely the point. A shill is a con dressed as an enthusiastic audiophile. This discussion is about the former. You keep reverting to the later. To what end? 
wattsperchannel OP
81 posts
05-25-2016 5:41pm
"geo, Dude get a clue. A shill acts in a deceitful way screwing the unsuspecting buyer through a con."

An enthusiastic audiophile can sometimes appear to be a shill. He praises the device or cables or whatever, even over praises it.  So, there’s frequently no discernible difference between an enthusiastic audiophile and a shill. But the enthusiastic audiophile is not shilling. If you perceive someone is shilling a product you can always ignore the post, one supposes.
czar,

True but it sucks when you see people get creamed for just trying to kill some time.
geo,

Dude get a clue. A shill acts in a deceitful way screwing the unsuspecting buyer through a con. This has nothing to do with your question. I presume your’s is an act.

How do I become a shill? Are there fanboys that hope to graduate in to being shills? I can recall a couple times where that seemed to be the case, but not sure of the mechanics.


"You can't cheat an honest man"

 

UCLA and Under Armour just closed on a $280 million deal. That’s $280 million Under Armour pays UCLA to wear their shoes and uniforms for the next 15 years. Is that wrong?

it's particularly difficult in this world where businesses can do stuff like purchase Facebook "likes".

Or purchase your stock of shills by selling them gear at huge discounts.
Back in 1979 I was a commissioned salesman at a high-end audio shop in DC, and behind the counter we had a small plaque with "There are Lots of Liars in this Business" on it.  True then, and true now, but now with the internet as our vehicle for knowledge, it's particularly difficult in this world where businesses can do stuff like purchase Facebook "likes".
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I had a bad experience with a very small audio boutique company. I trusted forum reviews, a few magazine reviews and thought? this company was a great small audio outfit. After many many months of trying to get three pieces of equipment fixed which I had purchased the owner/engineer ignored me. Finally he took the stuff back and never admitted the hum and spurious had come from his equipment. I took a big $$ loss on selling back to him! He has a forum, I posted my experience. Now I am banned from posting on his forum.
Funny, he never banned the positive comments. Mostly, I suppose it was great advertising for his company. So I agree, many forums are there for advertising, not for an honest exchange of opinion and experiences shared by owners. Most are for fanboys and really helping the audio company sell more stuff. What was the comment that got me banned from this guys forum? I said I agree he is almost impossible to get in contact with. A completely truthful experience.

Pretty remarkable; you could be my twin brother.

I must confess though I actually enjoy a challenging political discourse but it must be with an intelligent counterparty.  
I guess I didn't see the post before it was deleted.

Work: Against.
Music: For.
Women: For.
Golf: For.
Religion: Against.
Politics: Against.
Environment: For.
jmc, I was curious about your thoughts????

Thoughts about what? Work? Music? Women? Golf? Religion? Politics? Environment?
 
  I suggest that you take your talents to Washington DC then, as there is a rigged system, full of corruption that could use some fixing too.
Sounds like "Mr. Smith goes to Audio Forums." Maybe I will make a movie.
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Fact is this site IS for profit mainly so there you go.

The are other sites in the sea as well but not sure if any are any better in this regard.  The main thing here is probably average cost of items discussed is significantly higher than most other sites and more people willing to pay any amount if they think it might improve their sound.

@wattsperchannel , if you are successful cleaning up all the corruption in the forums, I suggest that you take your talents to Washington DC then, as there is a rigged system, full of corruption that could use some fixing too.
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