Yes GShep, but reading between the lines is the tricky part and its a shame we hobbyists constantly must do so. The tactics used by some recently have gotten ridiculous; just surf around. I would love (even pay) to have a forum that consisted exclusively of hobbyists. Maybe where manufacturers and/or dealers were invited in for scheduled interactions and then depart; a place where we could go for honest advice from other audiophiles and not have concern about the BS agenda.
I will say not all Forum owners (who are also dealers) are as bad as others. I can think of one who is quite professional but another who sets the standard for the absurd; it would actually be comic if not for the intent. (I wonder it it is the one to which you were referring prior to your deletion.) In any case if someone ever starts a hobbyist only forum, I am all in!!! |
Well maybe "astute" is the wrong term but would you agree they are generally not stupid? In other words not stupid enough to fall for the such sophomoric schemes. To me it speaks volumes about the ignorance of the Forum owner. |
GShep, I am curious, do you mind if I ask why you removed your post??? |
MP, Let me just say you will know it when you see it. It is not subtle. |
Yes sharks indeed.....I don't perceive the kind of crud happens to the same degree here on AG mainly because central orchestration of the charade doesn't exist like it does at other places where the conflict is directly tied to the management/owner. Still as you point out its all about your own ears. I do feel its a shame we can't carve out some isolation on a place like AG to let some objectivity rise to the top.
I have had dialogue with many friends about this mess. I am not certain a fee-based not-for-profit model for hobbyists only would not fly. |
Hew, Ya but I am not aware of one that is exclusively committed to the hobbyist.
Like I said above, the problem is not when a dealer is forthright and willing to engage in reasonable discussion; it is the few that employee subterfuge and shills to manipulate audiophiles trying to just make a sound decision. It ruins a part of the entire hobby and it doesn't have to be this way. |
Jed,
Thanks for those forum sites. I will check them out. My issues have most definitely been with the "non-maker" forums as you describe where the owners is a dealer. I am not saying AG in its current form is a shill-free zone by any means, but what I would love to see is one of the major forums provide such a venue. On the other hand AG IMO is as clean as a baby's behind compared to the crud that I see at owner/dealer forum. |
Gshep & Hew, Thanks for those two. Suffice it to say I have been frequenting the wrong fish tank. BTW, Hew very true, very true regarding the poker table.
I wish there was a card game where the peddlers where stopped at the door. I don't understand why this sort of thing couldn't happen. There are so many hobbyist that just want to share personal views and experiences with out the underhandedness. |
His deleted post above..... and those things too would be nice. |
geoffkait, Sorry, I didn't catch that??
jmc, Its all about the money, money, money; don't listen to Jessie J:
"It's not about the money, money, money We don't need your money, money, money We just wanna make the world dance, Forget about the price tag Ain't about the (uh) ch-ch-ching ch-ching Ain't about the (yeah) bl-bling-bl-bling Wanna make the world dance, Forget about the price tag"
Ya right Jessie, not when it comes to sharks and us fish. |
mapman13,321 posts05-24-2016 8:26amHow about a spin free zone here like that nice unbiased O’Reilly guy does? But what I propose is a program run by its Non-Shill members, not a central authority with their own agenda. In the case I refer the Owner/Dealer is all about a spin-full not spin-free zone. |
jmc,
You raise the heart of the issue: the profit motive and human nature. I am a big fan of the profit motive generally driving the best outcomes for society, but I do prefer a modicum of ethical behavior.
I don’t consider my pursuit of a "Shill Free Zone" to be that of a naive Utopia which assumes a change in human nature per se; I see it more as a simple rules based program that would keep the slime away from those who prefer an environment (from time-to-time) that doesn’t have to deal with constantly being fed a line of BS.
Legitimate dealers, manufacturers and reviewers (i.e., those with a profit motive) would be welcome to scheduled events at the Shill Free Zone; if they behave themselves they would be invited back.
Would this program be perfect, of course not; but relative to the killing fields I see today where unsuspecting hobbyist get bamboozled by nefarious players, I believe it would be a huge step forward. |
geoffkait3,473 posts05-24-2016 8:39amShill Free Zone? There is no discernible difference between shilling and enthusiasm. Get over it. Maybe we should have name tags for Shills, Trolls, Pseudo Skeptics and Enthusiasts.
geoff, As mapman points out you could not be further form the truth with that comment. Honest enthusiasts are exactly of what the forum I propose would consist: like-minded hobbyist looking for experience based feedback void of deception and profiteering by flimflam men and their cadre of helpful charlatans. Maybe rather than directing me to "get over it," you could be so kind as to offer a logical position as to why such a thing would be bad for hobbyist whom want to participate. Oh wait, other than the fact it would make life more difficult for the scammers.
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Peter (pdnaudio),
Please let me be very clear, if you read my OP carefully I am absolutely not impugning reputable dealers, manufacturers and/or others whom make a living from our hobby. These people play a very important role on forums. They disclose their roles and engage in meaningful discourse regarding differences of opinion and experience. There is a wide crevasse between these folks and the other stuff I reference. They have very little in common. |
wcc,
I feel your pain. What I fail to understand is the argument that says "well that's just the way the system works." First, that is simply not true; that's the way the rigged system works and that is the position championed hardest by those that don't want it changed.
When the architect of the rigged system is also the governor of the forum, its simple to halt reform by just hitting the ban button and the charade is maintained for the next innocent victim whom stumbles along in search of objectivity. Instead they get a well choreographed bag of doo-doo. |
mapman,
I do not argue for a regulation of existing forums. I get that forum owners are of various ilk and some are going to behave as they see fit often out of ignorance as to sound business practices (to their own detriment). I frankly could care less about these individuals. Rather I propose a separate forum to augment the current condition that would be member controlled, not for profit, and Shill-Free. |
I suggest that you take your talents to Washington DC then, as there is a rigged system, full of corruption that could use some fixing too.
Sounds like "Mr. Smith goes to Audio Forums." Maybe I will make a movie. |
jmc, I was curious about your thoughts???? |
Pretty remarkable; you could be my twin brother.
I must confess though I actually enjoy a challenging political discourse but it must be with an intelligent counterparty. |
it's particularly difficult in this world where businesses can do stuff like purchase Facebook "likes".
Or purchase your stock of shills by selling them gear at huge discounts. |
sw,
Yes I am not aware of any owners that don’t disclose themselves as dealers. That is not my point and I am sorry if I gave that impression. Its about the way the forums are run as described in points 1-4 in my OP. Its just not cool IMO and I long for a more hassle free way for hobbyists to share views without the crud. |
czar,
True but it sucks when you see people get creamed for just trying to kill some time. |
geo,
Dude get a clue. A shill acts in a deceitful way screwing the unsuspecting buyer through a con. This has nothing to do with your question. I presume your’s is an act. |
Good post jmc. I am going to go listen to some music for a while. :) |
Precisely the point. A shill is a con dressed as an enthusiastic audiophile. This discussion is about the former. You keep reverting to the later. To what end? |
blb,
As my OP states, these are personal thoughts based on personal observations; my objectives are awareness and open, honest discussion among hobbyists--pure and simple. Also in the OP, I ask if I might be seeing things wrong. Based on many of the posts, I am not.
My decision to not be specific has been explained---namely, I prefer pursuit of the objectives stated above as opposed to wasting time arguing with the source of the problem.
You are correct, there is no doubt I abhor the behavior I describe (I certainly have made that clear). However, I have no interest in "getting even" with anyone (this is also why I have no interest in focussing on any particular forum).
I have no idea why you think I am a shill. To the contrary, I am proposing an alternative approach to the "dealer-controlled forum" that would intentionally exclude such industry participants. I am am strictly a hobbyist with a bug up my bottom when it comes to candor.
I feel I have made my interests clear--I am sorry you find this so troublesome. |
kng,
Ummm, that's basically the concept this thread discusses---A member funded, not-for-profit, hobbyist only discussion forum. |
Liking sites like AG or AA and also wanting a venue void of conflict are by no means mutually exclusive. |
I love money but I despise using underhanded tactics to attain money. These two are also very different things. Evil is spawned from depravity; its effects are many. The pursuit of money of its own accord is not the problem.
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