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Bieber or Death Metal...
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Audio as a weapon
I would like to deviate a bit from the normal audio equipment conversation and delve into the phenomenon of the recent audio "weapon" that appears to have been deployed in Cuba upon State Department employees and now, it appears, in China. I know that very low frequency can be dreadful to listen to but anyone out there have any ideas with regard to how audio could be used as a weapon? It is not my intention to draw speculation of a political nature, I am only interested in the technical aspect of audio as a "weapon". Anyone have any thoughts?
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For the record peeps, I was not far off: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/09/us-intelligence-thinks-russia-may-have-microwaved-us-emb... Someone get me a cookie. |
A number of decades ago, the military experimented with subsonics as a weapon. As I recall, the idea was arrived at after reports that some elderly people were losing control of their bowels at high end theaters that were using super massive subwoofers, pumping out high volume subsonics. The idea was to use this technology as a source of crowd control. The idea was dropped, not because it was totally ineffective, but because the subsonics could not be aimed. Those deploying the weapon were equally as affected as the targets. What a crappy outcome, eh. You tax dollars at work. |
All you need is a cannon to fire the bowling balls and slits big enough for them to pass through. It’s not rocket science. 🚀 it’s really more of a thought experiment. Yeah, I know, ouch, right? Besides, you actually don’t even have to do the experiment at all. All you have to do is understand the original Double Slit experiment, what it means and it’s implications. |
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You might have a point. All photons and actually all atomic particles and all non atomic objects, even bowling balls, behave like particles and waves, e.g., Double Slit Experiment. Whether that’s the same thing as saying particles exist in vibrating particle fields, or whether that’s the same as saying mass is really energy I’ll leave that to the student. |
Thank you for your insight geoffkait, If you would like to start your own thread regarding these topics I would be interested. If you do, start a thread, and I am not posting please PM me so I can join in... I never said mass vibrates, you have. I stated that all matter is made up of particles that are arranged in particle fields that are vibrating. Einstein has interesting views on relation of matter/energy... @falconquest , I am done with physics debate/thread jack with geoffkait and would very much like to return to your topic "audio as a weapon". |
jeffrey75 @geoffkait , thank you once again for taking a interest in what I have to say. Matter is made of particles and particles are a vibration of a field, caries mass, and takes up space. Energy is the capacity to cause change and carries no mass and has capacity to do work when produced by matter. Realivistic mass or total energy is not the equivalent of rest mass, that is the inertial mass of object at rest, which is what you are stating. No new pseudo-physics are being claimed by my post... >>>Actually, I’m not (rpt not) claiming/stating relativistic mass or total energy is equivalent to rest mass. What I said was, according to the famous Einstein equation, energy and mass are related by E=mc2, so one can CALCULATE the equivalent Energy of a given Mass. But that does not (rpt not) mean mass is the same thing as energy. And just because a mass vibrates at some frequency doesn’t alter the fact that it’s mass. It doesn’t mean the mass is energy. Mass CAN be converted to energy using fusion or fission, obviously, or by burning. Mass is not just another form of energy. Also, I didn’t really say pseudo-physics, but point well taken. 😀 A black hole is purely mass, sometimes 3 billion solar masses of mass. But there is no energy, only mass, spin and electrical charge, which is probably zero. And gravity is a consequence of mass, not energy. The gravity waves detected a couple years ago, the so called ripples in spacetime, were produced by mass, not energy. |
@geoffkait , thank you once again for taking a interest in what I have to say. Matter is made of particles and particles are a vibration of a field, caries mass, and takes up space. Energy is the capacity to cause change and carries no mass and has capacity to do work when produced by matter. Realivistic mass or total energy is not the equivalent of rest mass, that is the inertial mass of object at rest, which is what you are stating. No new pseudo-physics are being claimed by my post... |
I really appreciate the comments. Physics is really amazing both for what we know and don’t know. It appears to me that some sort of "audio" (or microwave or...???) weapon has been invented that induces hearing and brain related problems that operates outside of the range of human hearing. My sense is, we must know what this technology is. I find it interesting that after dying down in Cuba, this has sprung up again in China. |
@geoffkait , thank you for pointing this out but I never mentioned mass only matter. Matter observed under a microscope is inert material but mostly made up of energy and is vibrating. The denser the matter, humans and steel walls of a embassy for ex.,the more it will vibrate. This combined with a soundwave made to do harm was the first thing I thought about when reacting to falconquest question, but I left it out for brevity. Obviously my segue into what I posted was much broader but it was my line of reasoning pertaining to question asked. A photon carries zero mass at rest only, but photons are never at rest, so when a photon creates energy it has a realivistic mass that is not zero and is affected by gravity. So inside a photon field the newly discovered Higgs boson particle and it's field help give photons and other particles their mass. But this only observed by causing the Higg's field to vibrate and observing the vibrations of field not the particle itself. |
teo_audio Well constructed logic can look like poetry. But, more importantly, I managed to park Geoff’s mouth. Do I get some sort of Agon Kewpie Doll award for that? >>>>Well, shut my mouth and call me Corn Pone! What I can bestow on you is the Laughing Goat award. From the men who stare at goats. No goats, no glory. 🐐 |
Ah, a self taught theoretical physicist. Good on ya, mate! 🙄 One does not have to wear an earned label (degree, doctorate, etc) to be able to analyze. But it does help. If only people with earned degrees and doctorates can comment or be allowed to think and express, then it’s possible to consider it as some form of dictatorial religion, at it’s most ugly. "The council speaks for all of you", kind of insanity. OTOH, those who don’t understand it can also make a mess of things when they try and express via whatever means they may employ. The solution is not evident, in any event. Humanity meanders, I guess you could say. The death of having/being perfect order ...and the death of unmitigated chaos where coherence of any kind cannot emerge. Both are utterly useless for the idea and expression of life. Meandering in a soup of ordered individuality ..which is pretty well all we’ve got that keeps us alive and moving. "Music is the same. All the fantasy you want - But with order." Music is important to humanity. Fundamental in fact. One informs the other. Which is why manipulation of the music generas can be so effective. Akin to interrupting the ego loop. |
Audio as a weapon. Of course, I would give up at one when I would be forced - to listen to records via Garrard Turntable or - to listen to records via MySonic Lab Cartridges or - when someone would read reviews loudly for hours and hours from J.Valin & A. Dudley or - they will show me a Pair of Magicos connected to Pass Amps ... I would say everything "they" want to hear |
More like: Does mass bother to involve itself with photons? Think of mass as an aftereffect of the frame of reference...... Same for gravity. And time. Ergo the speed of light is finite, and as a wall (constant).... but only in the frame of reference. ~~~~ Put the whole question and answer set on backward, and see where the train of thought takes you.... There is research that finds the speed of light to not be constant or as a limit. We have it as a stable data point, yes. (lots of experiments in this area) And we have dimensional models, where the constants are not the fundamentals that they are ’here’ (so to speak). And we have the violations, happening all over the place, bits of oddities, here and there...throughout pretty well all branches of science, these anomalies exist. As well as existing in places science is uncomfortable with. Millions of examples. (Reality is not limited by objective models. But science is) Ie ’dark matter’ may not be anything but a dimensional placeholder, a spacer where the translation into Einsteinian reality is bridged, across a dimensional fulcrum. As dark matter is not following the rules and it’s protrusion or act of being is also causing problems in the current standard model itself. If one starts going down that road of trying to figure this out, then they might find themselves arriving at Musk’s conclusion of this not being a fundamental reality, that the odds of this place ’we all understand as being reality’ being the ultimate original frame of reference.. the odds of that..are so close to zero that it is not worth bothering with the idea. (billions to one, is the deal. This is what the meta-studies of the 'compleat' extant/emergent science says. Ie, not where we've been, but where we're going, intellectually and in observation of our space) History, ie, the past, and unidirectional time, and an unknown future...this violates energy conservation laws as an idea and observation, alone. If the universe is symmetrical, energy wise, thermodynamics, and so on, then unidirectional time cannot exist, as unidirectional time inherently indicates an asymmetrical frame. To paraphrase Dire straits, "Two theories say they are Jesus, one of them must be wrong..." Then it really gets strange, as this above....is the simple stuff. The cheap seats. |
Elizabeth- Are you saying the US Govt or the US military does not already have these types of weapons??? Or the capability to detect them? I would be curious as to what you know. It's not Elizabeth that's saying. it's the US Gov't that's not saying. Because to do so would be an admission. And sometimes the diplomatic corp talks too much or brings unwanted attention to themselves that have unintended consequences. |
Trelja, it is interesting that you have the same experience. I did find it amazing that sound frequencies can have such an effect on our bodies. But I guess in the grand scheme, sound can take the blame for the hearing loss we all realize with age. But in the end to the credit of sound in musical form, I maintain the going up is worth the coming down. |
jeffrey75 Absolutely, quantum physics is showing that everything in the universe is energy, so on the sub-atomic level we do not find matter we find only energy. This pure energy or light is everything comprised in universe and is resonating at a different speeds. Everything you see or touch is vibrating at one frequency or another including yourself. >>>>Whoa! Dude! Not sure I go along with your detective work. Sub atomic particles actually do have mass. Now there is such a thing as mass-energy equivalency but that’s not what you just said. Besides light can only travel at one constant speed. The speed of light, which is the constant in the famous equation relating E to m. The units of energy are entirely different than the units of mass. The black hole in the center of the Milky Way is pure dead mass, 3 Million Solar Masses to be exact. You can convert mass to energy, for example burning a log of wood and coverting it to heat, radiant light and ashes (different form of mass). Pop Quiz - Does a photon have mass? |
Stealth applications: ATC built noise cancelling speakers for the British Navy at least 30 years ago. The device could reduce a ship ‘s engine external noise from the funnel significantly by 20db but required 135 dB at 30Hz. They continue on other military projects due to their unique capabilities in regard to transducer technology... |
I believe Elizabeth is referring to whether or not the technology exists to detect such a weapon, keeping the technology classified, the R&D involved, the government contracting and procurement process that would take forever. If such technology does exist, there are military and diplomatic protocol issues surrounding the use and deployment of such technology in a foreign country or anywhere else for that matter. Just because you’re a diplomat does not entitle you to know everything your government is doing. Actually, let me step back a bit: Let's say someone in our government, after some research and studies (feasibility of such technology) determines there is justification to explore technology X. Before technology x can get off the ground there has to be 1. A request (most likely a branch of the military) 2. Written justification and probably a conceptual design or theory 3. Green Light given to explore and develop technology x. That means you gotta develop, produce and test a working prototype. Then there is the question of money. Whose Budget and how much. Budget approval process. Procurement and contracting process: Who does it? Getting the picture? Think about the Manhattan Project and the development of the first atomic bomb. |
@theo "The folks putting on the display stated that at below 12 hertz, they would play short bursts and because of the low level and concentration of vibration warned us against stomach upset and asked if we felt queasy to leave the room. They also stated that below 12 and the sustained exposure of a steady 12 hertz Or less could cause unreversible stomach or intestinal damage. They indicated that below seven they could actually cause, for the lack of a better expression, liquefication of the intestines resulting in death. I do recall that feeling in my lower stomach that did create a very uncomfortable feeling." My friend Bill Legall of Millersound has a pair of Ohm Walsh A. Something like 11 pairs were in prototype mode, and various states of completion when Lincoln Walsh passed away in 1971. As someone who inherently knows how drivers function in the real world, Bill seems to truly understand the intent of the Walsh driver, offers a simple visual explanation of how they work, and how most every other driver seems wrong in comparison. Bill "completed" his pair of Walsh As in a way very different from how Ohm has functioned since Walsh’s passing. I can tell you Bill’s pair of Walsh A work in a particularly stunning manner, and that single driver’s range stretches from basically DC all the way up through the top end of the musical spectrum and beyond, and in addition to incomparable imaging, play splendidly on a very few watts. As much as I feel the Quad ESL57s play music better than most any other loudspeaker, the Walsh A climb to another level. The low frequency effects you relayed certainly come through. A couple of times, when hitting a bass note, I felt the contents of my intestines taken hold of and rattled, with the instantaneous feeling I was losing control of my innards. It’s shocking to say the least, and one of the scarier things I’ve experienced |
Absolutely, quantum physics is showing that everything in the universe is energy, so on the sub-atomic level we do not find matter we find only energy. This pure energy or light is everything comprised in universe and is resonating at a different speeds. Everything you see or touch is vibrating at one frequency or another including yourself. As dekay's article points out
Intermodulation distortion occurs when two signals having different
frequencies combine to produce synthetic signals at the difference, sum,
or multiples of the original frequencies.
A very smart way of saying somebody has come up with sum of frequencies to damage and make a human sick... A quick google search of "heavy metal guantanamo" will give you play lists of music used in "enhanced interrogation." |
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@geoffkait It may have been a writer who was not writing for Audio during WWII, but who did write for them later. I used to be a subscriber to Audio and I believe it is in this magazine that I read the story. Yes, his idea was describing sonar, but he did not name it as such at the time, it had no such name in the public domain. As I recall the story, the US navy was already working on or using sonar, but the Audio writer did not know it. He just wrote an article and published it saying it would be a clever idea, which caused some branch of the US to interview him at length about how he came to his ideas. |
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erik_squires BTW, I believe that during WWII a writer at Audio magazine suggested using sound waves to detect submarines, which was actually a highly classified secret at the time. >>>Wow, I didn’t realize Audio magazine went all the way back to WWII. 🙄 How about Sonar? Would that work? I saw that in Run Silent Run Deep. I used to be in boomers. |
It may not be acoustical. It could be microwave. Theoretically (and I’m out of my depth) frequency modulated microwaves could move the fluid in the head, causing acoustic like side effects. It is considered by the alternative press to already exist (almost 20 years, now) and there have been numerous books that cover this subject. Easily found. Basically the microwave RF as a carrier frequency and then audio modulation. I believe there was a fully blown test done in this area, a while back. I tend to read physorg every day, and I think it was covered. almost 100% sure on that one. Meaning, it hit the mainstream. Mainstream does not mean real, it just means mainstream. Like life itself, the vast majority of existence is outside of the mainstream. Things can be real when they are not widely known. Popularity does not make fact or reality, unless a person anchors themselves in herd stupidity. And, to add, things in the mainstream are considered quite psychotic and unreal at times, by those who do not center their lives in the mainstream. And so on. Back to the microwave carrier audio modulation thing. Basically, black ops stuff, the subject of ridicule, barbs and spit flung at the explorers of the fringe data. Always remember that the CIA, deeply involved in DARPA, was the actual creator of the term ’conspiracy theory’. And that many of the inventions considered to be conspiracy by the mainstream, and as reported by the fringe..turned out to be real. Ie, the ’heart attack gun’, to remotely trigger a heart attack in people in range (same room, etc) turned out to b a real functional invention. And much much more. Eg, to say there are ’controls’ injected into forums on website, to control the discussion is considered conspiracy theory. Yet the military of the USA admits freely and directly on this subject, and also stating that the biggest area of warfare to open up for the next 100 years, is cyberspace, forums, and similar stuff that has yet to evolve. so, various groups freely admit to being involved in some forms, in an attempt to steer the narrative out of areas they don’t want explored. Ridicule, straw man arguments, ganging up, being a moderator, and so on. All avenues of narrative control that are outside of common noticing. And many hundreds more of articles and pages of text to find and read on, if you want t know more about this very real and very current subject. |
A few years back at a RMAF There was a company demonstrating a new type of sub woofer which was really a fan blade driven but they could achieve as low as three hertz. The demonstration involved Playing a series of samples of different levels of hertz. They started out at about 25 and working their way down to three. The folks putting on the display stated that at below 12 hertz, they would play short bursts and because of the low level and concentration of vibration warned us against stomach upset and asked if we felt queasy to leave the room. They also stated that below 12 and the sustained exposure of a steady 12 hertz Or less could cause unreversible stomach or intestinal damage. They indicated that below seven they could actually cause, for the lack of a better expression, liquefication of the intestines resulting in death. I do recall that feeling in my lower stomach that did create a very uncomfortable feeling. So I believe that it could be used as a lethal weapon based on the information they provided. On a lighter note, I believe that continual playing of “Achy Breaky Heart” could force some into to committing suicide |
It may not be acoustical. It could be microwave. Theoretically (and I’m out of my depth) frequency modulated microwaves could move the fluid in the head, causing acoustic like side effects. Or it could be microwaves being used to excite a local acoustical device, kind of like the famous State Dept. Seal bug, but in reverse. |
This is one of the better reads I've found on the matter (not just the article, but the comments as well). https://spectrum.ieee.org/semiconductors/devices/finally-a-likely-explanation-for-the-sonic-weapon-u... DeKay |
Making people deaf is not something that shows, like a knife in the gut, or a blown off leg. So they can use sonic attacks as a deterrent and punishment of a group, and get away with the non existent pr issues. Sonic attacks seemingly roll around in the same realm that the audiophile argument is in. Since people can’t actually see it our touch it, then in their mind it probably did not happen, if they have no "real" data on the source point.. (define real -please and thank you. Good luck with that. A place where science trips over its own psychological stance... and has to deal with being ensconced in a subjective human reality -as all human reality is) Even if it is all too real. Like the audiophile conundrum, it is a conundrum not because it is false ....but that the given mind has to weigh in on the subject, with no hard solid object that they can grab and sense directly. A case where objectivity taken to an illiterate extreme delivers a form of circular insanity to the position holder. |
