Aric Audio Custom 300b PSET and Aric Audio Super 6sn7 preamp.
@earthbound Horns had better not be bright with that! In many rooms that amp would be a bit power shy on AN loudspeakers just so you know, based on the fact that any SET with zero feedback has about 20-25% usable power before distortion causes them to sound ’dynamic’.
Subs are often a good idea. By getting the bass right, you’ll find the mids and highs to be calmer due to the built-in tone control of the human ear. IOW if the bass is lacking the highs will seem louder.
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Be wary of manufacturers Voltage sensitivity ratings, they can be quite misleading see here page 1 sec: C 
Mike
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Thank you Ralph. I thought I was crazy. Having had an AB push pull prior to this and feeling the grunt a bit more, I felt like I might be missing something. On songs with a lot of bss, Sade Ordinary Love for example, the bass is great. It really just disappears with some songs and particularly any 80’s rock unless it’s cranked. Now I’m not blaming anyone but myself or saying AN or Arics gear isn’t great, because it is. I’ve learned that I’m not a low powered set amp guy. I will probably miss that awesome sound and presentation when I move to whatever’s next, but hopefully I can find a happy medium.
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So I’ve heard ditusa. I’ve read some AN people stating they are probably closer to 92-91db. Definitely on the border for low powered amps in a large room like mine.
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I don't know if you've seen measured specs and/or reviews from Stereophile, but here is one account, https://www.stereophile.com/content/audio-note-e-lexus-signature-loudspeaker-audio-note-espe-he-august-2008 May, 2006 issue has specs on Lexus version, Atkinson measured 92.5db sensitivity, also stated, "I don't think the speaker will make significant demands for current on the partnering amplifier, which, in combination with the high sensitivity, makes it very suitable for use with flea-based single-ended amplifiers". Based on those specs and Atkinson's conclusions the 300B should work with the AN-E. I'd try out some subs before concluding your not a SET guy. I'd also suggest REL's, they are unique in their designed to connect to high level connections on amp binding posts. I use two with my modded Khorns and they made all the difference, not just lower fundamentals in bass, but sound stage, imaging, better tonal balance as well.
Now I did run Merlin VSM speakers some years ago, somewhat similar specs to the AN's, used those with both push pull and 845 SET amp, always preferred them with 845, bass much better than any EL34 and mids better than any KT series. Just for kicks tried them with some 2a3 monoblocks I had, no way, sounded like one of those pocket transistor radios. Of course 300B somewhere in the middle. I just wouldn't be so quick to get rid of what you have, your Aric audio amp and pre are fine pieces, almost pulled the trigger myself on his two enclosure 300B amps.
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What 300B's are you running? The 'premium' tubes make all the difference. I originally ran the Shuguang Black Treasures, generally considered one of the best or best of the 'affordable' 300B. Then moved to Psvane Acme, wow, that woke up my custom build 300B monoblocks, just far more insight, micro, macro dynamics, then I move to the Western Electric, notable increase in transparency. Power tubes make a big difference in SET, the same with my 845 SET's.
I should also note since REL's designed to connect to speaker binding post, they take on sound characteristics of amp to some extent, most seamless integration of subs I've tired, this vs. far more powerful subs using dsp. Some speakers just need a little bit more oomph, reach in bass, these not like bookshelf speakers that need crossover set at higher freq. don't need these massive subs My listening room 13'W x well over 30' L, I sometimes listen to electronic dance music and hard rock, my 'little' T9x pair of REL's do just fine, don't shake the room like my larger Genesis clone subs (Wyred4Sound), but the integration on all genres of music better.
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As I mentioned above, I have not heard your amps, but the description suggests that it is very well done--the construction is good, it uses an interstage transformer to help drive the 300B properly, etc. Nonetheless, if you find the sound is not quite what you want, it is worth exploring alternatives. I would not automatically assume it is the speaker that should be replaced, particularly since it is not that easy to find speakers that have all of the positive attributes of the AN-E. I would at least try different speaker placement, room treatments, perhaps different tubes in the amp, even different amps if you can find loaners. In looking at different amps, don't automatically assume that SET amps are "magical" and cannot be touched by other topologies. I've heard great pushpull amps that also sound great with high efficiency speakers and OTL amps that also deliver killer sound.
At Deja Vu, I've heard the AN-E's with Synthesis Audio amps (pushpull KT66) and prefer them over Audio Note amps because they have a punchier sound. Perhaps you can find something like that to try.
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Sns, I use 4 Western Electric, Telefunken as my 6v6 and 2 6sn7 Raytheon’s as the I put tubes(supposed to be bass heavy). In the preamp I use 2 Raytheon and 2 RCA’s. I really love the sound of this particular set up. I’ve tube rolled a bit and found this arrangement quite nice.
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Larry. My first tube amp from Vu was a Synthesis push pull el84 amp. It had that punch for sure. I matched it with Zu Soul Supreme speakers and had extreme ear fatigue really quickly. Headache would last hours. I tried all sorts of treatments around the room. In my rush to find a fix, I sold the Zu’s and decided to sell the amp as well. The amp had to be biased by hand, by going in with a screw driver next to that power storing transformer! It also had a built in dac. At the time, I wanted to play around with various sounding dacs and find one that really was my sound. So off it went. That Synthesis a-40 gets great reviews but same situation.
So, depending on trade in or personal sale, I may try the Soro se signature or scrap tubes and try a Pass Labs int-60. Both are 1 box solutions.
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Btw sns, I might be leaning towards the Kef kc-92. I’d like to start with one sub and the dual opposed provides a bit more. More research before I pull the trigger though. I’m an impulsive person when it comes to these things but amp sale or trade in forces me to slow down. That process will dictate the direction I head I suppose.
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I have never heard a Zu speaker that I could stand--very bright, lean and harsh sounding. I think it gets attention because it is extremely lively sounding, and that is a BIG contrast with most modern speakers which tend to sound lifeless.
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Yep. They are good party speakers for big rooms and young ears. I enjoy my buddies when I’m in the next room but not in front of.
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What’s weird is checking the frequency response of the all Zu’s, they have a spike at both the 2 and 5khz. This is total ear fatigue area. Not sure why any speaker designs it this way. From my very limited understanding, it’s not necessarily the curve but spikes in that region that humans are susceptible to ear fatigue. Please don’t quote me though. I did read up on it when I was suffering but that was awhile back.
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I like Volti I have heard. Zu not so much. Agree with the ear fatigue comment from what I have heard over the years, but will say they finally sounded more acceptable to me last time I heard at CAF 2024.
Personally for better bass, if I were you, keeping the ANs and adding a powered sub or two is a very practical option to consider. Or Volti might be a nice change. Either way. Have fun!
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It would be wrong not to listen to DeVORE speakers. They are manufactured near you. Not horns but you are looking for speakers that offer more resolution and perhaps a little more bass...check out the o baby's.. do not underestimate the output or the bass they are capable of.
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Thanks Mapman. I’m looking at the Kef kc-92. Might just be the easiest. Only drawback, I don’t have an input on the amp. So, I will run speaker level connection. Means I can control how high I want the sub to go but no cutoff level for speakers. So down low they will both be playing in that range. Not optimal
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Hey Sounds. I’ve read up on Devore a lot. I think they have a similar design with the ported bass. I’m not looking to change any sound from the AN’s. They’re awesome. Just want to add bass.
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Good choice @earthbound. External crossover like minidsp can solve sub integration effectively if needed. DSP/eq another option. Always a way to skin the cat….
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I just watched a review and he’s an av guy. Ran some measurements and found a 12 millisecond delay, which apparently is quite significant. That worries me since I have to run the sub simultaneously with the speakers. Might not sync well. I’m going to try to find the signal delay times with various subs I’m looking at. Could be what makes one mesh and the other not. Not sure I know enough but this was quite an informative video. The search continues…..
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I’m not looking to change any sound from the AN’s. They’re awesome. Just want to add bass.
If that’s the case, add a subwoofer. Other speakers including horns will sound different
But if you still want to look elsewhere, a Volti vs Klipsch debate here
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Thanks Kenny. Might change amps first and see how speakers perform then. If I feel unsatisfied, I may go horn route. Too many variables. So, for the time being, probably sub or subs. Calling Rythmik tomorrow. They appear to have a delay of only 3 milliseconds. Fastest I’ve seen yet. I hope that equates to easier integration.
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Maybe get a subwoofer first, then see if you’re moving in the right direction.
If so, maybe think about adding another subwoofer to even out nodes. If not, then can try a different speaker and maybe use the subwoofer also.
I’m not familiar with Audio Note Sonics (soooooo many variations), but I believe they are highly musical. If you’re looking for a “musical” speaker, I find the Devore O/96 Speaker is One of the most “musical” speakers I ever demoed.
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If you are ever in the DC , northern VA area you are welcome to come and hear my Joseph Crowe horns driven by a set 45.
same trip you could visit Vu at DejaVu . He custom makes some amazing horns too and almost always has one available for playing. That is in addition to the audionotes.
glen
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Thank you Glen. One of my amp options is a Pass Labs for sale in that area. Things might be getting interesting!
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I have been using high end horn speakers (Cessaro) and SET 300B mono amps for quite a while. It wasn’t until I discovered the benefits of proper chassis and AC grounding, that I uncovered much more bass and a very “you are there” balance to the music. I use Puritan products but there are many available. I would also look into EMI RFI devices. Some are plug in, and really help in the bass and soundstage area. Even if you buy new speakers, I would still explore this. Hope that helps.
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Thank you lab pro. I do have all my equipment, except for the amp, plugged into emi/rfi devices. I was told the amp is better right into the wall socket.
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earthbound
One thing I found out as a dealer for 20 years is that there is a huge difference between horns and soft dome tweeters. You might think you should find a horn for more efficiency and end up with less of what you really appreciate from your current speakers.
something to think about. you best listen first.
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Thank you sounds real audio. Absolutely will have to listen for awhile and probably many speakers. I had B&W’s for 23 years, AR’s for 5 or so, then Zu for 15 minutes and now Audio Note. Just starting to figure out what sound I really like. There’s a gentleman near me that has Volti and I reached out to him. Hopefully I will get a listen. I will go from there.
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@earthbound
This is Charles from the Tannoy or Volti post, be sure and let me know how you like the Volti …
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I will Charles. I might get a local listen soon. Member reached out. If I like the sound, I will hop on the bike and make a trip to Tennessee.
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From reading everything here, if it were me. I'd first try the sub route with present AN. If that didn't work I'd listen to Volti's, (and listening anytime is great idea) with your present amp and pre, try to demo in your listening room. Other horns are an option as well. And not sure I like your idea of going with Pass. I think Pass is great and all but fairly recently I purchased Pass XP-22 pre to have as backup or replacement for my Coincident Statement (DHT tube) pre. While it was nice, all tubes for horns is best IMO, just lost a bit of that presence of live musicians in room that is calling card of DHT and horns. Now some people don't like this presentation, they prefer more distance from the musicians, this upfront sort of presentation too much in face. I get it, I've heard other presentations that I quite like, I'd have multiple setups if I had the money and room.
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I have been using Altec Lansing 604Cs for 45 years.
When they get honky, it means something is not set up right, or something is failing.
As my entire system has been refurbished (except for the tonearm) from top to bottom within the last two years, the sound is now silky smooth and startlingly lifelike. No 2-3K bump whatsoever.
See the about page:
https://theaudioatticvinylsundays.com
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Thanks guys. The gentleman reached out and I will have a listen on Wednesday. So, no decisions with subs or speakers until then. I get to step back and reset. By this coming Thursday I will have a new perspective, whatever that may be.
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@earthbound sounds great, did he say which speaker he has for you to listen too?..If I go there it will be the Lucera or the Rival…
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Sns, I will keep the amp and pre. Instead of doing my usual sell everything and start again routine. I do love the sound of the 300b set amp. Who knows, perhaps my bass issue can be resolved another way. This is my first foray into the set amp world so I don’t know what characteristics are attributable to which device. Caution, thought and slow action is probably prudent. I will listen to various speakers going through similar types of amps and see if I can achieve what I want without selling everything.
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@unreceivedogma
Re your comment above: When they get honky, it means something is not set up right, or something is failing.
I'm interested to learn just how you approached this issue. I've owned Altecs on & off since 1960. I currently have a pair of 604Es in my system and also use Mastering Labs crossovers. The speakers have a distinct, cupped-hands sound that I cannot get rid of. My amps range from a solid state Hegel H-20, to an Elekit 300B. My preamps are EAR 912, CJ PV5A, and ASL. They all sound different but don't change the basic sound ot the speakers.
So, I'm curious to find out what you did
Many thanks,
Fred
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Not sure Charles. They may be Khorns, which I’m assuming are Klipsch. Greg said that they have Volti something or others in them. Since I’ve never heard horn speakers before, I thought it might be a good place to start. I can listen to horns and pick his brain and ears as well.
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@earthbound
I’ve had a pair of AN-Es with custom crossovers from Vu for years. I also have a pair of restored/modified Altec Santiago horn speakers in another system, so I have a few thoughts:
1) For deep bass, unless you have them in the room corner, per AN recommendations, AN-Es will not have nearly as much bass as a DeVore O/96, and the DeVores are more room friendly (unless you want to plant them in a corner). The problem with AN corner placement is you don’t get great soundstage, so if that’s important to you… I would also note that Art Dudley replaced his Es with DeVore O/93s a number of years before he passed.
2) Someone mentioned Cessaro speakers - they’re sublime, and expensive. If you want to have a good time, visit Jeffrey Catalano of High Water Sound in NYC. He carries amazing stuff.
3) Tennessee - you need to visit Gestalt Audio in Nashville if you’re doing a road trip. They carry a number of really top-notch, highly efficient speakers, including some horns, that you could listen to (e.g., Wolf Von Langa, Zeiler, Horning, Cinnamon, etc.). They also carry Cessaro! And if you’re gonna see all of the state, there’s a dealer in Kingsport, TN called YFS that carries Aretai speakers, which is an interesting horn design.
Good luck!
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@earthbound --
Higher efficiency needn’t see the necessary use of horns. While I’m not sure there is a U.S. distrib for these, the Stage Accompany M57 speakers are excellent and not very well known around here. They’re 97dB sensitive in the passive version, and around 97/100dB actively (woofers and ribbon sensitivity respectively). Locally they retail in the vicinity of $15k/pair, which is very fair considering the competition from JBL and others - against which they compare favorably, I find. Ideally I’d pair them with higher eff. subs, actively all the way through and with the SA1205 woofers high-passed in the 80-100Hz region, but passively and unassisted they’re still a very neat package.
I like what’s basically a 2-way design in a main speaker, which the M57’s are. A higher efficiency solution with large air radiation area will typically grant you the opportunity to cross over lower to the woofer section, while maintaining HF-extension from a single driver element that takes over. Should augmentation be needed in the frequency extremes the crossover points here are usually outside of critical areas; that’s the case with my own setup that houses 2-way high eff. main speakers that are augmented at ~11.5kHz on up and ~85Hz on down. HF-augmentation is not needed with the M57’s from Stage Accompany, although the limited vertical dispersion of the SA8535 ribbon (and its very clean, lack of smear sonic properties) necessitates for one to sit with the ears level to them.
Joseph Crowe’s designs have been mentioned - they look very interesting, not least these. I have no personal experience with them, but they are made in the U.S. (not the drivers, which are mostly EU-based) and by all accounts should give you the benefits of (very) high efficiency - with excellent craftsmanship to boot. I’d love to listen to them, and paired with SET’s they’re no doubt very capable sounding.
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Thank you mdalton. I sort of assumed the Devore, based on a similar design would have similar bass as the Audio Notes. Would you say you can feel the bass with Devores?
As far as horns go, I may get a listen and not like them. If I do, NYC is a quick train ride away. I will look on the website and perhaps go in for some auditioning. I appreciate the tips!
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My experience of them is limited to show conditions, so take with a grain of salt. But I would say they definitely have energy below 30hz, which is quite good. And if you take a look at Atkinsons measurements in the 2006 stereophile review, he shows the bass response of Art Dudley’s AN-Es vs. O/96 in his room (ANs in corner, 96s out in the room), the responses were identical. There’s a relatively new DeVore dealer in Brooklyn, btw.
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@earthbound wrote:
[...] Not set on horns but want efficient speakers with substantial bass.
This (i.e.: the issue with the size of speakers needed to accommodate above quoted section, with reference to Hofmann's Iron Law) has been addressed already, but in continuation of my recommendation of the Stage Accompany speakers should include their bigger sibling, the M59's to give you more "substantial bass." Big speakers? Yes, but once you've said A what follows is B.
@larryi wrote:
My number one pet peeve about speaker manufacturers is the lack of driver controls on multi-way speakers. Do they really think the levels they chose are optimal for all listener preferences, all rooms, all locations of the speaker, all upstream equipment choices? [...]
Good point, and which is one of the reasons why outboard active speakers are so compelling; here, with a quality DSP, you can adjust the level of every driver section pre-amplification in 0.1-0.25dB increments from the listening position via your laptop/tablet (that's what you need to do anyway when level matching the driver sections actively). Not only that, but one can make small amplitude corrections/notches at a single frequency point with varying Q's in each of the driver bands. So, no post-amplification adjustments via tone control add-ons.
Please note that what I'm referring to above isn't Digital Room Correction, but simply "equalization" measures done manually by the listener. When used this way that's what a DSP basically is, an equalizer, but as part of the digital crossover itself with many more options and, again, prior to amplification. So, not an extra measure post- or pre-amplification as you would in a passive speaker context.
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Was just thinking of that yesterday as I took my morning walk. Such a shame audiophile equipment frowns upon tone controls. My right ear doesn’t hear as well and I would love to just move a balance knob a hair. Or turn down the treble a bit on a bad recording etc…Anyway they are nice from the videos I’ve seen and the few reviews I’ve read. Professional level gear for sure. A shame not very popular here and none around.
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My JBL speakers have Voltage controls for mid frequency level @ 2000 Hz and high frequency level @ 12000 Hz I also have a 10 band White 4100 EQ. 😎
Mike
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I remember my old AR 10’s had an increase and decrease switch for each high, medium and low drivers. Was a cool feature. I remember having to adjust them when I moved and had hard wood floors vs carpeting.
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I have a one-off pair of Altec Super Big Reds (604E2s) in furniture cabinets (oak) that are tri-amped with a one-off electronic crossover and one-off passive eq units to go between the amp and the horn drivers.
I drive them with vintage Marantz equipment including two 170DCs for the four woofers and an 1180DC to serve as the preamp and power amp the horn drivers. I bought these from a recording studio that went out of business. I also have the matching 2130 tuner with the scope.
I was trying to track down their origin, but Doug Sax passed away a couple years prior to when I got them.
When we had a meeting here of the JBL people, everyone agreed that these were the best 604s they had ever heard. If you were on the west coast, you would be welcome to come by and hear these.
BTW, I really don't listen to these much and they could be had, but only as a complete set. All amps were recently serviced. Would be he-- to ship those 15.5 cu ft, exterior volume, cabinets from the left coast!
 
https://youtu.be/iGa9259pz-I
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Perhaps I can get the landlord to help me move these into my apartment!
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Getting a 15'' woofer to blend seamlessly with a horn requires great engineering and manufacturing.
Requirements for integrating a horn with a 15'' woofer per James B. Lansing Sound, Inc. See below: 😎
Mike
''(1) Constant coverage angle with consistent polar patterns, both horizontally and vertically controlled over the total operating range [1000 Hz to 16,000 HZ). (2) Coverage angles wide enough to mate at crossover with a cone woofer [90 to 100 degrees square or a Directivity Index [DI] of about 8 dB). (3) Faster flare than previously used, for lower second-harmonic distortion. (4) Shorter length to place woofer and horn in the same acoustic plane.''
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I’m a Khorn AK7 owner. When I added a pair of subs; like wow. For years I was a single sub user. Given your equipment and comments that’s my best guess for you.
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