Today I picked up my Atma-Sphere Class D Amps. These aren’t broken in yet. And they are simply amazing. I’ve listen to a lot of High End Class D. Some that cost many times what Atma-Sphere Class D costs. I wasn’t a fan of any of them. But these amps are amazing. I really expected to hate them. So my expectations were low. The Details are of what I’ve never heard from any other amps. They are extremely neutral. To say the realism is is extremely good is a gross understatement. They are so transparent it’s scary. These amps just grab you and suck you into the music. After I live with them some and get them broken in. And do some comparisons to some other high end Amps Solid State, Tubes and Class D’s, also in other systems I’ll do a more comprehensive review. But for now, these are simply amazing amps.. Congrats to Ralph and his team. You guys nailed on these.
Seems like you made a subjective judgment - at best similar performance - about the Atmasphere amp without having heard it. Nothing objective about that.
I said:
"I would not pay $5000 for an amp that offers me at best similar performance to one priced at $1000- it’s a non-starter."
What makes you think this is a subjective statement? I have been asking for measurements consistently and have said ad nauseam there is no value in discussing, debating, or arguing, subjective opinions about amp performance. Clearly if you had read and understood my comments you would have realized I am referring to objective performance above. Since the manufacturer has refused to produce the measurements, we can not compare the performance, thus my "at best" qualifier.
However, neither Ralph or any other designer has to be beholden to the design approaches that you favor. And, if they feel that their differently designed amps warrant a different price point that is their choice; they understand the market and their business objectives. No one is forcing anyone to buy anything. If you get musical satisfaction with Class D at the $1000 price point, great; if someone else gets Class D musical satisfaction at $3000, $5000 or whatever, great. There’s no right or wrong in that.
I don't believe I have said anything that contradicts the above, which is all obvious on its face. I have stated that the amp, from an objective performance standpoint, provided that at best it performs as well as the current state of the art, is a poor value at 4x the price. That's MY opinion, based on fact. As you astutely remarked, "There’s no right or wrong in that."
If you get musical satisfaction with Class D at the $1000 price point, great; if someone else gets Class D musical satisfaction at $3000, $5000 or whatever, great. There’s no right or wrong in that. Likewise, everyone is entitled to their own assessment and value criterion; again nothing right or wrong in that.
If anyone lives in the MA or NH area and wants to hear the Atmasphere class d amps IN THEIR system, PM us for a listen. No obligation then you can report back your thoughts.
@kuribo"I have tried to move the discussion to the objective arena where discussion on the merits can take place based on facts and debatable parameters. I have mentioned such things as design, cost, value, performance, etc., in an effort to draw logical comparisons to other class d amps- rationale, objective parameters that apply to all amps and all listeners- things that can be legitimately discussed and debated, unlike opinions on how something sounds."
"Clearly there is a lot larger market segment at $1000 than at $4000-$5000. I am sure I am not alone in saying that I would not pay $5000 for an amp that offers me at best similar performance to one priced at $1000- it’s a non-starter."
Seems like you made a subjective judgment - at best similar performance - about the Atmasphere amp without having heard it. Nothing objective about that. Also, you’ve made it abundantly clear that you are fan/proponent of other designers approaches. That’s fine, and good for you that you have found some that suit what you value. However, neither Ralph or any other designer has to be beholden to the design approaches that you favor. And, if they feel that their differently designed amps warrant a different price point that is their choice; they understand the market and their business objectives. No one is forcing anyone to buy anything. If you get musical satisfaction with Class D at the $1000 price point, great; if someone else gets Class D musical satisfaction at $3000, $5000 or whatever, great. There’s no right or wrong in that. Likewise, everyone is entitled to their own assessment and value criterion; again nothing right or wrong in that.
@kuribowell done on that post sir.
I think that there may be some effort going towards getting measurements done, but it will take a couple of months and the party needs to reach out to Amir.
nice post @sdl4 - But for some new here, Ralph is unknown, and taking his word on things from the 40 years of effort(s) is somewhat a “trust me” proposition when they are not involved with atmasphere.
I just became aware of them in the last year or so myself… but I am interested in them.
I found a review of the Prima Luna (with measurements) and therefore I would like to see the measurement of the Atmasphere. Then I could try and move the PrimaLuna on. If not I’ll keep it, and if I did, then I could consider making the jump.
I’d still have the tube front end, and I do not intend on that going anywhere in other than in a Charlton Heston fashion.
You've shared your opinion repeatedly: yes, you like the Atmasphere class d amp after not liking others, which to you is something significant. Yes, you like it better than some Pass amps, which in your opinion also means something significant.
Your opinions have been noted.
I have provided an alternative view: subjective opinions carry no factual information. We must each listen for ourselves to find our own truth.
I have tried to move the discussion to the objective arena where discussion on the merits can take place based on facts and debatable parameters. I have mentioned such things as design, cost, value, performance, etc., in an effort to draw logical comparisons to other class d amps- rationale, objective parameters that apply to all amps and all listeners- things that can be legitimately discussed and debated, unlike opinions on how something sounds.
As a result, we have learned several things- what was patented in the design, why the amp costs significantly more than other class d amps, why a linear power supply was chosen when many class d amps use a smps. Unlike hearing how fabulous and great the amp sounds, this is interesting and useful information. Additionally, the designer has been patient and comes across as an intelligent and thoughtful person. Also good to know.
I am disappointed however in the lack of transparency regarding the measured performance of the product. In today's market, with several companies backing up their marketing department with a wide battery of test results, I can't help but wonder why this company refuses to share such detail, nor even give any explanation as to why they do not publish a more comprehensive set of measurements. Ultimately the measurements will be made by a third party and shared, so again, hard to understand the secrecy, but clearly, it is the company's prerogative so it is what it is...
I wish Atmasphere the best of luck with their product.
All this fuss. Class D is the affordable ticket to music heaven these days. That includes Hypex and Purifi. You can bank on that. It’s just a fact. Not to say others cannot still compete. Good sound is largely a subjective determination but all really good sound excels in the same fundamental areas that can be easily measured. Looking forward to see and hear how the Atmasphere product compares.
I've learned a few important things from this thread.
I've been impressed by the consistently positive comments about the sound quality of the new Atma-Sphere Class D amps from users who have owned or heard these amps in a variety of audio systems.
I have been extremely impressed by Ralph Karsten's intelligence, patience, and skill in explaining the design principles he's used in creating and building these amps. He's also been effective in correcting misconceptions about his amps by posters who have been quick to question Ralph's choices in component parts, business models, and retail pricing.
At the same time, it has been concerning to read posts that question Ralph's honesty and transparency in providing sufficient information to potential customers who want more detailed measurements of the Class D amp. A number of basic measurements have been provided on the Atma-Sphere website, as is typical for Ralph's other amps. The amount of measurement information is more than provided by some manufacturers and less than provided by others. To suggest that Ralph is being insufficiently transparent about the functioning of this amp (for some dark reason) is silly and irresponsible. Ralph deserves greater respect than that, given his long career as an honest and talented designer of electronic gear.
Based on the user opinions in this thread, as well as reading reviews and measurements of other Class D amps (some GanFET and some MosFET based), I look forward to listening to both the Atma-Sphere Class D amp and one of the Orchard Audio amps in my own system. Other listeners may prefer to focus on other products, but the Atma-Sphere and Orchard amps appear to offer the best balance of sound quality and cost in relation to my current budget and needs. As usual, other users may have different opinions.
Just curious what is your agenda here? Just curious. You obviously have one. You’ve turned a good thread into one of the worst ones I’ve ever seen on Agon. You continue this circular conversation. I am going to stay away from the thread I’ve posted.
But before I sign off this thread. I’ve posted the numerous Class D Amps I’ve had within my system. Within this thread. And I can say I didn’t like any of them. Until the Atma-Sphere Class D. I am keeping the Atma-Sphere Class D over the Pass Class A XA60.8’s and XA30.8 I’ve had in my system. Let that speak for itself. As those amps in my humble opinion are truely excellent amps.
I thank those who had a legitimate conversation, questions, points and tried to keep those alive. I have some good things to also say about the Aqua LaScala DAC but seeing how this thread went…. I think I’ll keep my opinions to myself.
"Conclusions
It was just a few years ago that people scuffed at class-D amps not being very clean or good for audiophile use. How the situation has changed. First with Hypex modules and now with the Purifi 1ET400A. Audiophile myths are shattered with use of large amount of feedback and high bandwidth to produce an amplifier which brings transparency to anything you throw at it.
Importantly, the 1ET400A does all of this while producing a ton of power and staying cool and efficient to boot.
There is a subjective aspect to measurements that doesn't come across in the graphs. When I run these tests with switching amplifiers, I often watch the analyzer struggle to get reliable reading, or there are jumps and glitches in measurements. None of that was here. The amplifier basically acted like a traditional class AB amplifier. Indeed, I measured it with and without my AES-17 40 kHz filter and the analyzer was happy both ways. This is when I know there is quality engineering that has gone into design of this amplifier.
Overall, it is my pleasure to strongly recommend the Purifi 1ET400A to DIY and OEM manufacturers."
@jjss49, I am too far from electronics, but a common sense says that there may be something rational in some critical suggestions. Of course, someone like, you, better understanding the technical background, may really be true that such "suggestions" have no technical soundness. But, at least, I think that they do not harm. So, what is the point in the sarcastic notes?
Value picking seems to be easier when applied to established technology. Class D amp tech seems to in an evolutionary trajectory.
Current state of the art class d has performance with distortion at the limits of human hearing. Purifi, a leading class d amp company, is focusing their attention on drivers these days because in their opinion improving their class d amp has reached the point of diminishing returns. Speaker drivers are the weak link in the chain, thus I wouldn't worry about buying a state of the art class d amp only to have it materially improved in 2 years. Besides, one can get the state of the art for around $1000 these days.
If that is so either the opamps were really terrible or the designer didn't know what he was doing! With any module you really don't need a lot of gain, so why would decent opamps affect the sound?? Answer: if the buffer is properly designedand if decent opamps are used, they won't.
Plenty of people have bought in to the "everything matters, everything has a sound" mantra. As I am sure you are well aware, audio people can be quite insecure and easily influenced by the siren song of other's wacky claims. Just look at all the audio voodoo on the market- if snake oil could only be refined into gasoline we would have $0.25/gal gas again.
What a sad train-wreck of a thread. I feel bad for Ralph having to try to educate a bunch of keyboard warriors all because someone said something nice about his gear.
I agree with that whenever SQ can be affected, but making thick chasis just to protect the amp during the shipping seems to me unreasonable - just pack it well!
We've always packed our equipment well to survive FedEx/UPS treatment. But experience has shown that even though its packed well, the chassis can be deformed by the mounting bolt for the transformer if the transformer is heavy enough and the chassis thin enough.
These are the claims of customers- they prefer the "sound" of certain op amps over others, not mine!
If that is so either the opamps were really terrible or the designer didn't know what he was doing! With any module you really don't need a lot of gain, so why would decent opamps affect the sound?? Answer: if the buffer is properly designedand if decent opamps are used, they won't.
If they can ’tune’ the sound just by changing opamps they are either using really terrible opamps or don’t know what they are doing!
These are the claims of customers- they prefer the "sound" of certain op amps over others, not mine!
I would think that a module with a high PSRR would reduce any deleterious effects of the smps, at least that is what Bruno claims with his modules. Based on their measurements, it seems to be true.
@atmasphere, I agree with that whenever SQ can be affected, but making thick chasis just to protect the amp during the shipping seems to me unreasonable - just pack it well!
I think what @kuribo saysis very reasonable, and this is not something in what he can have some personal interest. If you manage to lower the price of your product (without sacrificing SQ) , given its good or even outstanding sonic characteristics, your product will become much more competitive and you will be able to sell much more of them having higher overall gain, talking in pragmatic terms, unless you wish to have a product for a very selected amount of people.
Indeed, those marketing Hypex, Purifi, and several other class d amps using the modules of others can "tune" the sound through the input buffer op amp choices
@kuriboIf they can ’tune’ the sound just by changing opamps they are either using really terrible opamps or don’t know what they are doing!
We’ve had the idea of a SMPS meant for the amp for a couple of years. That’s not a trivial design project although its certainly an one than the module itself was! Of course we looked at available SMPSs including those meant for audio, but again we ran into not only performance (which impinges the sound and performance of the module) and protection issues but also cost issues! If we make it ourselves then we solve three problems at the same time. In the meantime the toroidal supply is less expensive, works right and we have the right protection although we need a more expensive chassis to support it. IME though, that chassis helps with the mancave/WAF issue. In my case this means that I don’t have to have a mancave to run my stereo (although I do have to be careful about cargo shorts); it can be in the living room without inciting ire. Ya picks ya poison I suppose.
I should also mention we're concerned about noise. For example Bruno uses a current pump to create lower voltages for opamps and the like. We found that is noisier than using a more expensive supply for the same task. As a result the amp puts less noise on the AC line than most tube amps.
This really is rich. First we have ricevs telling Ralph how to redesign his amps, and now kuribo has a go.
Meanwhile, Ralph is model of restraint and superhuman patience.
I haven’t really told him how to redesign his amp have I? I merely suggested ditching the expensive case and power supply and offering a more competitively priced product. Clearly there is a lot larger market segment at $1000 than at $4000-$5000. I am sure I am not alone in saying that I would not pay $5000 for an amp that offers me at best similar performance to one priced at $1000- it's a non-starter.
In any case, it’s just a suggestion, put forth with good intentions. There is no reason for you to have a stroke over it...since you are such a fan, I would think you would be pleased to see Ralph successful.
So we didn’t skimp on the power supply or the chassis. We just built it to proper engineering standards without cutting corners. IMO one of the reasons you see such variable comments about how Hypex and Purifi amps sound is because of how they are executed.
Thanks for the insight. Indeed, those marketing Hypex, Purifi, and several other class d amps using the modules of others can "tune" the sound through the input buffer op amp choices. I suppose it is a clever marketing technique to appeal to different tastes, rather than offering any color the customer wants, as long as it’s black. Of course most of them degrade the performance of the amp modules to some extent, but as we can see here, there are those who aren’t concerned with high fidelity to the input signal. Other such differences, like type and style of case, input mains filters, mounting configurations, etc., surely do vary widely, from head scratching to immaculate. No doubt these differences play some role in the final result as well-how much, I do not know.
No doubt with the weight of the transformer you would need a stout case. I suppose that can certainly add to the costs, though it is hard as a consumer driven by performance to justify spending 3-4 times as much as a competing product for things like a dealer network and a stouter case, neither of which in my opinion makes it "go faster". You might consider using a smps, a lighter, cheaper case, and offer your amp for half or 1/3 the price. Surely there is a sizeable market at the lower price point.
@kuriboThe cost has to do with how the equipment is marketed. We use a dealer network and have worldwide distribution. That requires that we have it priced accordingly. Dealers can be quite valuable because they can provide support!! FWIW if we were to use a Purifi or Hypex module, the amp would actually be more expensive than it is now due to the markup we would have to pay on the module. The cost of the chassis, built extra rugged so it will survive abuse in UPS while being built in limited quantities, is a big reason the amp is more expensive. The funny thing here for me is for decades we were always docked on cosmetics. I was always resisting installing a 1/2" thick front panel on our stuff since it would have raised the cost so much, but that is what our competition has been doing all this time. And we still don't have the 1/2" panels!
So we found a way to limit that cost a bit, but the simple fact is that if you do this stuff in the way that we are (the chassis is formed of 3/16" aluminum for example, to prevent deformation with the weight of the power transformer) its simply more expensive. Now if we were to use a SMPS it would allow the chassis to be cheaper, but our research has shown that if you really want the amp to perform the way it should, the SMPS will be custom built for the job. Otherwise it will current limit or other such nonsense and we certainly experienced that!
So we didn't skimp on the power supply or the chassis. We just built it to proper engineering standards without cutting corners. IMO one of the reasons you see such variable comments about how Hypex and Purifi amps sound is because of how they are executed.
He did state that he likes Purifi and Hypex, and that they also have published specs and graphs.
So I do not think it is out of line to ask for the graphs.
Being a fanboi of those brand does not automatically exclude one from liking, for instance, Atmasphere or Benchmark. It seemed more like “he has no objective proof that he should like them,” which if that is really what he means, then I cannot find a cogent argument to oppose that view. And I like them without an objective and rational reason to do so.
Hypex, Orchard, and Purifi are some of the current state of the art performance wise. The publish detailed measurements that give a great deal of insight into the abilities of the designer, the behavior of the product, and how the amp will play with other components. Additionally, they outline and highlight the performance envelope for users. Clearly these companies believe there is some value added by documenting the performance of their products and I for one agree. All properly engineered commercial amps are rigorously tested and measured by their designers so this is not asking for anything they haven't already done. I fail to see any legitimate reason to not share such data. Not everyone can or does find value in such information but that is no reason to piss and moan about those who do. I happen to appreciate products with state of the art performance and elegant engineering, both of which often go hand in hand with transparency from the manufacturer.
No I am running Cullen Cables Power Cord. Hope this doesn’t open up a can of worms…. I use them on everything
No it is all good. I appreciate your post.
I just assume that it doesn’t matter a whole lot, and it seemed like it would be good to have in here.
If people like their off the shelf Hypex or Purifi based class d amps then they need not look for a superior sounding amplifier.
He did state that he likes Purifi and Hypex, and that they also have published specs and graphs.
So I do not think it is out of line to ask for the graphs.
Being a fanboi of those brand does not automatically exclude one from liking, for instance, Atmasphere or Benchmark. It seemed more like “he has no objective proof that he should like them,” which if that is really what he means, then I cannot find a cogent argument to oppose that view. And I like them without an objective and rational reason to do so.
And let’s be a bit realistic here; we are talking about the best in Class-D…all of which are very good by most standards whetherb they are objective or (unsighted) subjective.
It is not like being about as good a Purifi and Hypex, as good, or a bit better, is very different… they are all very modern amplifiers showing the best of the topology.
and I thought that @pstores posted that he had also tried Purifi and either Hypex or Benchmark, so I am sure that the graphs are likely nothing to be embarrassed about.
@juanmanuelfangioii, allow different points of view. Do you think that it would be better if everyone will repeat the same? It is good to have different opinions and some criticism. By the way, @kuribonever said that he does not like Atmosphere class d.
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