Are cable recommendations worth anything?

12g zip cord and keep the money in your pocket. On the other hand if someone insists maybe I can cook something up and apply lots of flowery words and a big price tag and since you will spend lots of money that alone means it is superior.

@thyname 

Hey @audio2design... or @dannad, or @atdavid, or whatever... it did not take you long after they banned your most recent moniker (Dannad) to resurface again here. Why on earth keep insisting over and over and over coming back here to spread your venom and hatred to everything audio and audiophiles?? This is way beyond my understanding and imagination. Get a life.

yep...  new username... same b.s.

@audio2design,

'It will of course be noted that "Audio Reviewers" did poorly. Retail audio sales, better, but not great. Selected and trained did by far the best. Selected mainly by good hearing (which I suspect many here no longer have), and trained to listen for specific defects for loudspeakers.'



This could be a major problem with all of our opinions, learned and experienced as they might be. Just how good is our hearing? Can you imagine how skewed our impressions might be if we were to have one or two dips at various frequencies?

Perhaps it's high time someone put out a comprehensive online listening test measuring both our ability to hear not only comparitive loudness but different frequencies. 

I mean where would it leave the opinions of someone whose hearing becomes irregular above 8kHz? You'd think it would be mandatory for reviewers (and anyone working in pro audio) to have thorough hearing tests, but apparently it is not.

Floyd Toole's work might not get us all to the audio promised land, but nevertheless it remains a valuable map for anyone attempting to navigate their way to sonic excellence.

It's not really too surprising that in addition to the importance of a flat on-axis performance and smooth off axis performance, listeners also gave bass a 30% weighting when assessing overall performance, is it?

In my experience, cables do have a sound of themselves when connected to the same components...although they may very well sound different connected to different componets.  In ,my system, Purist made the system sound much like tubes with  sweet rolled off highs...but with a texture.  Cardas closed in and flattened the sound, Audioquest Sky seemed perfect, but their WmFLowe top of the line was awful for me. Blue Jean's told me they are in the cable business, not in the Audiophile business.  Try them all and choose the one you like.

As I have said before, such arguments are a waste of life. 

If people think I know how to establish superior audio systems, they will listen to my recommendations. If people think someone else has the best methods, they will listen to them. 

I used to care about people with poor sound. I used to try hard to convince them they could have better. It was nothing but contention, argument. No need for that. So, I quit it. 

Have fun waging your war, people.   :) 

ahofer

... These things happen all the time and are quite legal. The double blind host gets compensated for his time. I pay him if I lose, but I ask that you do so if you can’t tell the difference. There is no DA on earth who would call it a scam.

You’re pursuing a scam.
Beware the audio guru.

No one serious about exploring valid double-blind tests would taint them by introducing elements of financial loss or gain. Remember, you want to avoid as many variables and outside influences as possible. That’s the whole point of doing a scientific test.

Nothing here has convinced me that you are anything but petrified to face reality on this point.

Still casting bait, eh? It’s best to give it a rest.

ahofer,

From what I understand, anything that looks like a "bet" is frowned upon here. Period. This is a commercial site. I can see why they avoid any potential to appear to be facilitating something like that. They don't have Facebook's lawyers. It is easier and safer just to discourage it. Whether what you suggested was good, valid or otherwise is not the point. Best to just let this one go.

This cable stuff is tiring and really seems to bring out the worst in people.  Why can't people share their listening experiences and make their cable recommendations without it turning into a competition and argument? 

Is is so hard to simply try the cables, listen for yourself, and then buy/keep what you like best, without the perpetual arguments between science and hearing, good ears and bad ears, resolving systems and boom boxes, expensive and cheap cables, and the contribution a cable makes to the overall sound of a system?  Why care if somebody else has a different opinion? 

I always get a kick out of this slide in Floyd’s presentation. Start watching at this time location:

https://youtu.be/zrpUDuUtxPM?t=3220

It will of course be noted that "Audio Reviewers" did poorly. Retail audio sales, better, but not great. Selected and trained did by far the best. Selected mainly by good hearing (which I suspect many here no longer have), and trained to listen for specific defects for loudspeakers.

Listen very closely to what he says at 56:38.

Before you try to refute someone who has forgot more about audio and sound than most of us will ever remember, he said the two most important things for a speaker are flat on-axis performance and smooth off axis performance.  Someone in this very thread appears to be presently having a love affair with a speaker that for whatever other faults it may have, its on axis is quite flat, and its off axis is very smooth.

“Their system sucks, and everyone knows it- except for them! Because they haven’t learned to listen. “

It always comes back to this. “My ears are better than yours/better than thousands of others”. It’s pure nonsense, incredibly juvenile, and contains no useful or compelling idea, let alone scientific logic.

Stereo Review started debunking the cable myth in 1983, Head-if tests hundreds of people and only one can correctly identify cables from the sound, and on and on (within the links in the thread I posted above) but all you’ve got is your claimed exceptional abilities.

Look, you can argue there is a problem with blind tests (i reluctantly disagree, but ok). You can argue that all the tests done so far are flawed (large task, but at least it makes sense), but combatting science with snobbery is kid stuff.

And I enjoy the hell out of my system, especially as I’ve learned where applying money actually makes a lasting difference for me, instead of a temporary placebo hit that inevitably fades and keeps you on the hedonic audio jewelry treadmill.

The Archimago link within the text above is a great place to start on how to actually think about finding truly audible differences, as well as the story of a fellow audio junkie’s search for an audible difference in any kind of cable (power, interconnect, digital, etc.).

ahofer

Seems that the moderator has taken sides here and spuriously deleted multiple posts that contained no abuse, no profanity, and no personal attacks, unlike some of the responses.  They are facilitating the epistemic closure evident among some on this site. Shame on him/her, whoever they are.

I think the mods here do a great job.  Your posts weren't "spuriously deleted." The moderators deleted your posts because you were trying to hatch a scam, a financial hustle, the audiophile equivalent of Three-card Monte. I know you may have thought it was a clever approach, but it really wasn't and has been tried here many times before.  You'll have to find your marks somewhere else.

Beware the audio guru.

There's an old saying, those who can do, those who can't whine about double-blind blah blah blah.

In my opinion:

In a true double blind test, nobody on this site - or any other - could identify cables based on the way a system “sounds”.

Save your $$$

As you have also noticed, it does NOT make any sense and you will not hear any difference. A $50 cable is good enuf as long as properly shielded. Any similar priced phono cable will do just as well.

millercarbon is from another planet who can hear even negative frequencies. He can hear the collision of the air molecules depending on the temperature gradient. So, nobody should equate their hearing to his and feel inferior :-)

For most other humans, my first paragraph applies.

Some seem to have a great deal of trouble, accepting their own limitation*.               Then, it appears; "Misery loves company" becomes an agenda            (*a variable)

Listen with what? 😂😂. How can possibly a good power cord make their $50 China DAC sound like a SOTA DAC? 

They talk and argue and insult because they cannot bear the truth: that there are indeed differences, and that learning to hear them will allow you to build a better more satisfying music system.

This they find is infinitely frustrating. Because, think about it. Imagine. Here they are spending thousands of dollars, not to mention investing who knows how many hours, all for something they cannot even begin to hear. Their system sucks, and everyone knows it- except for them! Because they haven’t learned to listen.

And since they cannot listen they don’t even have any idea how to make it better. It must feel like the kid who wants in the worst way to join the game, but insists we change all the rules just for him. Its no longer about how it sounds, its about whatever impossible to prove proof these misfits insist upon. Its the most epic fail of all time. Of course they are frustrated, angry, butt hurt beyond imagining.

Oh well.

And yet, here you are: in a thread about cables. If you have concluded (in whatever way, not my business) cables are worthless, why do you worry about them? Why do you talk about cables? 

Seems that the moderator has taken sides here and spuriously deleted multiple posts that contained no abuse, no profanity, and no personal attacks, unlike some of the responses.  They are facilitating the epistemic closure evident among some on this site. Shame on him/her, whoever they are.

Suffice it to say that the people who are “dug in” are those who a) deny that the mountain of evidence against their subjective opinions even exists and b) don’t have the guts to prove that they have the golden ears they claim.  Dissing other people’s ears (if I had a dime for every time some super-annuated snob pulled that one) while purposely holding his hands over his own.

The null hypothesis has been clobbering the faith in cable differences for decades.  

Hey @audio2design... or @dannad, or @atdavid, or whatever... it did not take you long after they banned your most recent moniker (Dannad) to resurface again here. Why on earth keep insisting over and over and over coming back here to spread your venom and hatred to everything audio and audiophiles?? This is way beyond my understanding and imagination. Get a life.

Cleeds,

That Michael Fremer article like most of what comes out of his mouth is idiotic.

Even the most staunch anti cable people know that turntable cables are highly impactful on the sound. The article proves nothing really. His comment about leveling I find ludicrous.  Funny of all is his making fun of the guy saying he measured his azimuth being off and Fremer saying that's ludicrous. While unlikely, if there is high frequency channel say at 15-20Khz that is not there are lower frequencies then that can indicate the azimuth is off.

I wouldn’t waste my time on this anymore guys.  @ahofer is clearly dug in like an Alabama tick and no amount of evidence or experience will convince him otherwise.  His ears obviously aren’t good enough to hear differences in cables, so good for him.  He gets to live happily in ignorance.  He probably thinks there’s no difference between DACs either.  Oops, there I went and opened a whole other can o’ worms.  Heh heh.  Anyway, why bother to continue banging your bleeding heart against some mad bugger’s wall is all I’m sayin’ here.  Peace out. 

Unless the recommendation is to try upgraded interconnects/PCs/speaker cables/etc, in your system/room, with your own ears and recordings; it’s not worth anything!         The variables are myriad.

2020-11-06 20:35:17 UTC

you don’t provide any examples except one from a very suspect website where no such reward is offered....The description of differences is purely s...

Content may be removed for one or more of these reasons:

• It looked like spam
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I did none of these things. I did provide a lot of links, and I will assume good intent that somehow you mistook that for spam.  

I see, you’re promoting a gambling scheme.and requiring I have "skin in the game." That’s a far cry from your hook:

... the scientific evidence covers audibility as well, with thousands of blind tests. And if you are confident, there are many opportunities to prove that you can hear a difference for money.

You're not the first to promote this type of wagering here on Audiogon. It's always a scam.

audio2design

I have participated in blind amplifier tests where there was no difference noted, statistically absolutely random, and I have participated where the differences were statistically significant, with some bordering on readily apparent.

Same here. I was also part of a preamp test and could easily distinguish between the two units. Units in both tests were matched for level and an ABX Comparator was used for switching.

I have found detecting cable differences to be more challenging. Those who might want to experiment for themselves might enjoy Michael Fremer’s "It’s Just Wire" experiment.

ahofer,

I have participated in blind amplifier tests where there was no difference noted, statistically absolutely random, and I have participated where the differences were statistically significant, with some bordering on readily apparent.

I will see if I can pull the details up, but the no difference test was exclusively solid state, Krell, Parasound, a NAD, and I want to say a more "consumer" but not really low end offering, what I would consider "medium" volume, and while I don't remember the model, they were Harbeth's which are generally "easy" to drive speakers.

In the test with apparent differences, there was a mix of amplifiers, included Mac, Pass, Audiosphere, and 2 others and both Magnepan 3.6 and I believe Wilson Sophia. Admittedly this second test was set up to show that there are differences.

ahofer

You’d have to be hiding under a rock or willfully avoiding them not to have seen them, after decades.

I understand completely. You’ve claimed "thousands of blind tests. And if you are confident, there are many opportunities to prove that you can hear a difference for money," but don’t provide any examples except one from a very suspect website where no such reward is offered.

It’s worth doing this for yourself.

That’s dubious, because conducting or participating in a scientifically valid blind test is a tedious, arduous task. I have participated in a few blind tests, though, and have found the results interesting, if sometimes unexpected.

... claims of "night and day" differences in the chain prior to the loudspeakers really don’t have an evidentiary leg to stand on.

The description of differences is purely subjective, so your claim doesn’t really make sense. Incidentally, the results of listening to something is itself "evidentiary." That you don’t care for that kind of evidence is another matter.

Please tell us who is conducting these blind tests, especially those offering prize money. Please also tell us the details of the blind tests you have conducted yourself.

You'd have to be hiding under a rock or willfully avoiding them not to have seen them, after decades.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/catalogue-of-blind-tests.8675/

I've blind-tested all my amps and did so with cables until I stopped buying anything fancy (but not DACs, I really should get to that).  I was unsurprised to hear no difference in the old expensive cables I own (Cardas and..Opus, I think it was?) and anything else I could find. That was a long time ago and I never looked back, given that the third party evidence is just..monumental.  There's a great test in that thread where the listeners prefer a coat hanger, and another where they can't distinguish a rube goldberg connector made of very thin transformer wire, a paper clip, and some alligator clips. Cables are pretty easy with level-matching, obviously, but the time between swaps can be pretty hard on audible memory.  If you are willing to live with hi-res digital files using each cable, go on over to Archimago's site and take a trial yourself with rapid A/B.

Amps were really a shock for me. I swore I heard differences sighted but utterly failed to get it right blind (Adcom, VTL, Bryston, March Audio).  Just used a hand-held db meter for level matching, marked off the pre-amp settings and had my son swap the amps.  I was imagining the difference, apparently.

Since then, I've offered $10k to charity to pass blind tests in a properly set up trial.  The initially interested always stomped off in a huff over the terms (I initially got Amir over at ASR and Archimago to agree to help set up the trials, and they and many others offered to chip in, you can see the details over at ASR, but that limits us to two places in the world).  Of course James Randi famously offered a lot more money.

It's worth doing this for yourself.  I still think there could be minor differences that show up in rapid A/B testing, but claims of "night and day" differences in the chain prior to the loudspeakers really don't have an evidentiary leg to stand on. Sad, as an equipment enthusiast, but the truth often is.

ahofer

... the scientific evidence covers audibility as well, with thousands of blind tests. And if you are confident, there are many opportunities to prove that you can hear a difference for money.

Please tell us who is conducting these blind tests, especially those offering prize money. Please also tell us the details of the blind tests you have conducted yourself.

Well, I listen with my ears not scientific instruments.  Not too hard to hear differences between cables IME.  

I don't find that argument at all compelling, as the scientific evidence covers audibility as well, with thousands of blind tests.  And if you are confident, there are many opportunities to prove that you can hear a difference for money.  No money has been claimed.  There's just zero evidence that such a claim is true, so the reasonable assumption is that the difference you are hearing is a placebo effect.

Those are the only things scientific evidence suggests at this point, despite the occasional furious snowstorm of denial.

Well, I listen with my ears not scientific instruments.  Not too hard to hear differences between cables IME.  Whether the differences are improvements or not is another matter entirely. 

I think the short answer is they are only worth something if the recommendations are a) to make sure the connectors are well-made b)wider gage for longer runs, and c) the cable you already have is probably fine.  Those are the only things scientific evidence suggests at this point, despite the occasional furious snowstorm of denial.

@soix 

Thanks.

@tony1954 — Thank you Tony.  All good.  Water under the bridge.

It's all good folks. 
Sometimes it's difficult to discern what the intention is from behind a keyboard.

All the best,
Nonoise

@soix 

I took your advice and read through your previous responses and I humbly offer you my apologies. Unfortunately, I overreacted to a perceived lack of character that doesn't exist and for that I am truly sorry.
Despite what you may think, this is not what I am about and I hope you can forgive my rudeness. 

@tony1954 — Due to your complete and ongoing inability to understand my post here you’re making unfounded and inaccurate accusations about me, my motives, and the posts I make here.  You’re just completely and utterly wrong and seem unable to process information properly.  Go read through my responses here that are always respectful and as helpful as I can make them, then go eat your uninformed and ignorant words.  Sorry you got your panties all in a bunch over nothing.

@soix 

20+ years of doing something does not necessarily make someone more caring or more willing to answer a simple question Sometimes it just makes them jaded. Have a good night and remember to wear a mask.

I would never blame the cables.

@tony1954 — Wow, you really wanna push a bad hand eh? Ok.

According to your profile you have asked 32 questions, but have provided 3,208 responses. According to those metrics, it seems that there are very few instances of you not sharing your opinion.

So I’ve been on here for like 20 years trying to help people. Guilty. What’s your point? You’ve asked 4 questions and given 78 responses, which makes you an expert on, what? You’re still in diapers here dude, and you’re making yourself look like a bit of a fool gotta tellya.

"Garbage in, garbage out. He got exactly what he deserved IMO." Yes, very sincere.

Again, because this still doesn’t seem to be penetrating the cranial armor, I wasn’t speaking to the guy who wrote it but more to you in the hope you might learn something about how to ask a question here and actually get helpful responses since you don’t seem to understand why the “poor slob” as you call him (not very respectful BTW) got unhelpful recommendations that were all over the place. And yes, my GIGO comment was very sincere and very true. Big-boy pants. Use’em.

@soix 

According to your profile you have asked 32 questions, but have provided 3,208 responses. According to those metrics, it seems that there are very few instances of you not sharing your opinion.

"I’d never approach someone like that by being mean or dismissive, and I always try to provide sincere help to everyone I respond to here"

"Garbage in, garbage out.  He got exactly what he deserved IMO."

Yes, very sincere.

@audio2design - you've really burst onto the scene here with gusto, huh? since you know everything, are you participating in these threads for the pure joy of smug lectures and dismissive takedowns?  do you think that by rudely 'setting everyone straight,' you are providing us all a useful service?  or are you righteously fighting the good fight against 'audiofoolery' for the good of all mankind?  seriously dude, please chill out...

Aw Tony, let’s put on our big-boy pants here and get our facts straight, shall we? I wasn’t speaking to the OP of that post, rather I was trying to convey to YOU on THIS THREAD how he might have asked his question so he got a better answer.  But the fact that you don’t know why it wasn’t a good question explains a lot.  I’d never approach someone like that by being mean or dismissive, and I always try to provide sincere help to everyone I respond to here. I remember that post and probably didn’t respond, but if I did it’d be along the lines of this, which is a response I made to a similarly vague post so I could try to provide more useful recommendations to the guy...

Let’s back up a bit. What would you most like to improve upon over what you have now, and what aspects of sound reproduction are most important to you? You’ll get much more useful and targeted recommendations if you can specify these crucial things.

I have asked similar questions in response to countless threads here in an effort to provide them with more helpful recommendations. Does that sound inflexible, arrogant, or abusive to you? In the context of YOUR post I was expressing my frustration over the sheer amount of vague questions that get asked here.

Am I the only person that is confused when someone asks an open-ended question like this about cables?

So yeah, most likely you are. I think most people are not surprised that when you ask an open-ended question you’re gonna get a wide range of answers, but somehow in your surprise you’ve construed it to mean that interconnects are less important. Huh. But to answer your initial question more directly — yes, cable recommendations can be extremely helpful if the question is asked in a way that allows someone to provide a useful response. Hope this helped clear up your confusion.