+1 Charles, be interested in reading comments of a side by side comparison.
Aqua 'La Diva' ($9k) or Gryphon 'Ethos' ($39k) versus. Pro-Ject CD Box RS2 T ($3k)?
What sensible rationale is there for buying either of the two above-mentioned VERY COSTLY CD spinners (Aqua ’La Diva,’ a CD-only transport, and the Gryphon ’Ethos,’ a CD player with built-in DAC) when we can get the same pure Red-Book CD digital output from the Pro-Ject CD Box RS2 T for FAR less money?
What is a potential buyer getting for their significantly increased expenditure other than fancy packaging and possibly a boost to their egos from ownership of a prestige brand-name item? The one component (and a crucially-significant one at that) which all three of these products have in common is the new Philips-based Stream Unlimited CD Pro 8 CD player mechanism. Aside than that, what one appears to get with the two far-higher-priced components is little more than pure window-dressing, not substantive gains in performance over the CD Box RS2 T.
It is little wonder that one reviewer of the RS2 T thinks of it as nothing less than a "giant killer," in that it makes it nearly impossible for any level-headed purchaser, even one with the means to spend lavishly, to rationalize spending thousands of dollars more on these two competing products (or on others like them) when one can get the same sonic results (which from most reports are splendid) from the humble little CD Box.
Any thoughts? Do we audiophiles finally have good reason to come to our buying senses? To me, Pro-Ject Audio Systems may have struck a true winning vein with their CD Box when prospecting for gold.
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I don’t know why Gryphon Ethos is part of this discussion. As a one box solution, Gryphon Ethos with a built in DAC is a ultimate choice for anyone with means. On a scale of 10, it’s a 11 once you consider its aesthetics and performance. I’m not trying to justify its asking price but one shouldn’t overlook its intended audience. As far as La Diva, one needs to hear La Diva with Formula xHD DAC to appreciate its virtues especially through their proprietary i2S AQLink. I am sure RS2 offers great value and performance. And it’s performance can be further enhanced and appreciated by the associated DAC’s….and folks, when it comes to DAC, sky is the limit in terms of performance and price. |
I wish I had the disposable income to try them both out and see for myself. That's the part of being an audiophile that's left out of the discussion of what it means to be one: the detective work. It's the curiosity of what can be, of what lies around the corner that can make this a better and more fulfilling experience. For a true audiophile, it's not one and done. It's the process. All the best, |
That is precisely the point of this type of discussion. The impact a high quality transport contributes when paired to a high quality DAC (Same point can be made for the impact of High quality music servers). I don’t accept the premise that it is merely "all" about the DAC as some believe. What’s feeding the signal to the DAC has a vital role. "Bits are bits" sounds cute but there is so much more to the process that really matters and influences the ultimate sound quality of this digital signal chain. Transports and servers are crucial partners and their level of quality matters. Charles
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The YouTube video of the Swiss Albula Railway to which I posted a link in my comment above to illustrate how we can avoid being derailed off the primary topic in this thread (by placing the heavy electric locomotive at the FRONT of our train of thought in difficult weather conditions) is, in and of itself, a remarkable find and well worth viewing in its own right. It never occurred to me, until I came across this video quite by chance, that someone somehow was motivated to and managed to get themself and their hi-rez 4k 2160p video camera on board the locomotive of a train as it began its journey through the Swiss Alps in midwinter. The planning, surveying and engineering that went into the building of this world-heritage railway way back in 1903, is nothing less that spectacular. The builders, with the limited tools they had available to them at that time, nonetheless let nothing deter them from their determination to build their line to completion. If they ran head-on into an impassable mountain, they tunneled straight through it. If they reached a point where they had no choice but to gain or reduce altitude to continue along their surveyed route, they bored spiral tunnels inside a mountain, like a corkscrew, to solve the problem. They built massive stone viaducts across valleys, and snowsheds (galleries) above the tracks where avalanches were a constant threat. You get to see all this for yourself on this journey - if you choose to watch this video, be sure to start it at its beginning - YouTube has a way of landing viewers in the middle rather than at the starting point of its videos.
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Charles, you are right to separate the truly absurdly-priced Gryphon ’Ethos’ at $39k from the far more reasonably-priced (by comparison) Aqua ’La Diva’ transport at $9k, which is four times less costly. You can buy yourself a pretty decent automobile for $39k! I myself am becoming curious to know what Aqua has done with its build incorporating the CD Unlimited Pro-8 drive, also used in Pro-Ject’s RS2 T. I must confess that I was initially blown away by the price differential among these three machines. |
I'll differ with you on one point. I don't feel that the Gryphon ETHOS CD player is ridiculously priced. It is targeted for those shopping in a very specific and exclusive segment. Everyone is free to determine their discretionary spending budget. My interest and focus is toward the common ground utilization of the newest tech, the Stream Unlimited CD Pro-8 drive. There are currently 3 brands that have selected for their dedicated CD transports. Accustic Arts Drive II. 18K Aqua Hifi La Diva M2. 9K Pro-Ject CD BOX RS2T.3K My singular curiosity is what are the two higher cost transports doing with the excellent CD drive unit above and beyond Pro-Ject' s implementation, and if and how does it impact the sound quality and to what extent? Just pure interest,. The Pro-Ject transport comes with a wall wart power supply and sounds terrific. An optional LPS is available which is said to improve the sound quality. The Accustic Arts and Aqua Hifi transports have LPS as standard. Both are noticeably larger, heavier and in my opinion more visually appealing/attractive compared to the diminutive and understated Pro-Ject. Further curiosity is how do the Accustic Arts and Aqua Hifi differ between each other? I'm awaiting a Fidelizer Nikola 2 LPS and will see what I hear with it compared to the SMPS wall wart. Charles |
Immersed in watching the video I posted above, I see a connection between the kind of inspired talent those railway engineers of so long ago displayed so spectacularly and courageously applies in a different but equally impressive way to what the best minds of today are doing when confronting the challenges of converting digital "ones and zeros" into analog sound that our ears and brains can perceive as a true-to-life replication of the original recorded event. Pioneering efforts all the way around. |
“Transports and servers are crucial partners and their level of quality matters.” I am in complete agreement. I love to own a player like Ethos or La Diva but instead I’ve taken a slightly different approach to digital playback. Instead of relying on CD transports, I bought a high quality CD ripper with SSD storage last year. After extensive A/B, I could not discern any audible differences between a CD playback and the ripped tracks of the same albums played through my DAC. BTW, I am still buying CD’s that offers superior recording quality and ripping them to SSD for playback :-) Late last year, I’ve upgraded my DAC that eliminated the need for a external server or streamer. It has also eliminated the need to rely on vulnerable digital protocols like USB, AES or SPDIF. I couldn’t be any happier! |
@lalitk: Which CD Ripper did you get, and do you know what kind of CD-reading mechanism it uses? You describe your Ripper as being "high quality" - therefore you must be reasonably confident that the device inside your Ripper which reads the data off your CDs is trustworthy, and not merely some generic off-the-shelf Blue-Ray, CD-ROM or DVD-ROM mechanism. If your Ripper uses the same transport mechanism found in the Pro-Ject CD BOX RS2 T, then you’re likely getting the best transfer currently possible of your CDs’ data into your SSD storage. Is your CD-ripping machine a top-loader, or does it have an opening/closing tray which slides out the front of the unit to receive your CDs, or does it have a narrow slot into which you insert your CDs, which are then "swallowed" (drawn in) by your Ripper? |
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I am using Aurender ACS100 to rip my CD’s. You can read up about this player here, https://aurender.com/acs100/ |
This is a very interesting observation.
Question. You are comparing the same file format, one ripped on a PC and one ripped on the Aurender… and both played by streaming from the Aurender?
If true. To me it would imply differences between the file translation software between the two. Which would be very interesting.
I ripped all of my CDs as I acquired them over a couple decades to lossless files, using a PC… many different PCs.. I have an Aurender W20SE streamer and can directly compare a streamed version of a red book CD, one of my ripped CDs, and one playing on my CD player / DAC (you can see my system if you click on my ID). I have cannot detect a difference. This observation brings up some interesting questions to me.
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ANYONE electing to "RIP" (copy) a Red Book Compact Disk to a mechanical HD or SSD has two primary options or means to do so: either on a standard PC which uses a built-in generic CD-ROM, DVD-ROM or Blu-Ray tray mechanism into which we insert our CD and UPON WHICH we totally DEPEND to faithfully read the "ones and zeros" off our CD and transfer them to hard-drive storage for later retrieval. OR one can take a different approach to ripping their CD collection to a storage hard drive besides using a standard PC and use a machine specifically designed and constructed for the sole purpose of ripping CDs, which does essentially the same thing as a PC, only in a presumably far more uniquely purposeful and high-quality manner (such as amadeus888’s Aurender ACS100, whose SOLE raison d’être is ripping CDs). HOWEVER, the point of this discussion of CD rippers is to evaluate the nature and quality of the laser transport mechanism used in generic computer CD-ROMS and dedicated machines like the Aurender ACS100 alike. My contention is that if the new Philips-based Stream Unlimited CD Pro-8 drive makes such a radical difference to how well Red-Book CDs sound as compared to playing them over older, less advanced-design CD-spinning mechanisms, then the quality and nature of the CD-reading mechanism in the Aurender could very likely affect how a ripped CD sounds when played back from its storage drive. I can’t personally attest to any sonic difference, if there is one, since I have no way to directly compare the sound of a CD played over my new Pro-Ject CD Box RS2 T to the sound of the same CD ripped on an Aurender ACS100. Until someone does a direct comparison of the two, this discussion will remain at a subjective guessing-game level. |
"I have not heard either one of the two far-more-expensive alternatives, and I am curious as to why they are so much higher-priced than the CD Box." Why? Because they sound a lot better, that’s why. If you are happy with the CD Box, be grateful. By the way, you do realise the Gryphon incorporates a high quality DAC. A DCS Dac plus the CD Box will cost more than the Gryphon. What is comparable to a Gryphon is a Playback Design. |
@ laoman: Are you saying that the two higher-priced machines sound better because YOU have auditioned them and can personally vouch for their sonic superiority, or are you saying so because you BELIEVE that, BECAUSE they cost more, they SHOULD AUTOMATICALLY sound better? Whenever you make a strong, definitive statement like this one, you owe it to your readers to stand behind your assertion with some form of proof.
@ david_ten: The Aurender ACS100 is a purpose-built CD ripper, costing far more than a standard PC, so it stands to reason that we can PRESUME that it does its job in a higher-quality manner of execution, far better than we should expect a standard, run-of-the-mill PC, to do. |
“I get "purposeful." High-quality manner ripping??? Please explain....” IMO, The differentiator is Aurender’s proprietary CD ripping software, which is custom engineered to work with ACS100 internal high-quality TEAC CD-ROM drive. The ripping software’s sophisticated error detection and correction ensures accurate rips that are technically superior to rips made on a general purpose computer. One can argue that a PC or laptop CD-ROM drive is perfectly capable of bit perfect rips but we both know results can possibly varies by ways of how these identical processes of CD ripping are executed to nth degree. |
I recently purchased a la diva mk2, I also own a CEC tl5 and was lucky enough to home demo the project rs2. Firstly, each transport, in my system was preferable to my antipodes ex/cx solution, even with the ridiculously convoluted chain I seem to have acquired. (Melco switch, spdif converter, linear supplies, high end Ethernet cables, usb etc) the CEC is excellent, but does give up some detail to the other two transports. the project is a crazy good transport for the money, really exceptional, and was very close to the Aqua. I had the Aqua on a 30 day return at the same time I had the project. Straight out of the box the Aqua dug up even more detail than the project, but it done it in an almost distracting non musical way, pushing the detail forward in an unnatural way. The Aqua dealer told me that the unit does require around 200 hours burn in. After about a week, the Aqua seemed to have settled down, and I had a week of direct comparison. IMO the Aqua had a slightly lower noise floor, I could distinguish slightly more detail, the sound stage was slightly bigger, but also had more depth, that was probably the most distinguishable feature. Both are a joy to listen to but I opted for the Aqua, it is the best digital playback I have heard to date. However, bear in mind I was using stock psu with the project, may have been different with their upgraded power supply. Also I used the coaxial spdif output on all transports. I have not heard the Gryphon, it is way out of my price range, but it would be fun to see what, if anything, those extra bucks get you. Slightly off topic, but I would like to add, that while I have no doubt that in the fullness of time server based playback will exceed cd transports, in my opinion, on a £ for £ basis, and contrary to popular opinion, it is no where near cd at the moment! I was someone who jumped on the server and hires bandwagon, and it wasn’t until I had an issue with my home network and borrowed a transport did I realise what I was missing. I hear lots of people say their server is way better than their CD player, but when you drill down they are often comparing a £10000 plus server setup against the digital out of their CD player. Maybe I exaggerate slightly, but my point is people rarely compare like for like, value wise, these two technologies.
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Transports are important, no doubt about that, but let us not forget that there are brands which use cd rom transports in some of their top models (Meridian comes on mind as obvious one) and that does not seems to affect the quality of music reproduction. So, as much as I prefer to have big clunky machines like Dcs or Burmester I guess I would not object to have Meridian as well. Some saying about skin and cat comes to a mind.... Trying to put different machines 'in the sam bag' on basis of their transports (or to wonder about reasons of their cost differences) is kind of funny, no offence |
This is exactly what is of value, a "direct" comparison between the Pro-Ject RS2 and the Aqua Hifi La Diva M2 in the same audio system. And granted even then it’s one listener’s opinion but that’s okay. We know by its very nature it can only be subjective. This However is still more meaningful than comments and strong opinions from those who’ve heard neither or certainty did not hear them directly. In your assessment you used the term slightly several times when describing the difference between the two CD transports. This narrow gap does not surprise me. I believe the Stream Unlimited CD Pro-8 drive and Blue Tiger servo control card shared by both transports is the dominant factor responsible for the superb sound quality of both. I can see the Aqua La Diva M2 being "slightly " (As you put it) better due to additional fine tuning. What is quite telling is your RS2T was compared utilizing the stock SMPS wall wart. And yet results were very close. What happens when you instead use a linear power supply (LPS) which the Aqua utilizes internally? Both exceeded your CEC CD transport (Other listeners on this forum have reported the same). It seems very apparent to me that this latest Stream Unlimited CD technology has undoubtedly elevated the performance bar. @theburbster1 , same as you I’m highly impressed with the sonic performance of the RS2T. It has surpassed my high expectations. All of this with the tiny (Humble) wall wart supply. My Fidelizer Nikola 2 LPS will be shipped to me soon, I’m very curious to discover where things go from there. Thanks again for taking the time to post your insightful listening experiences with two wonderful CD transports. Charles |
The Gryphon Ethos is a complete CD player. What would be another interesting comparison is the Aqua La Diva M2 and the Accustic Arts Drive II. This is a dedicated CD transport that incorporates the CD Pro-8 drive unit and retails for 18K USD. What might it offer above and beyond the La Diva M2? Aesthetically it's very attractive and elegant. Charles |
@ghdprentice Before I decided on purchasing my Aurender N20 I exhaustively explored every avenue for ripping/streaming/storage. I auditioned Aurilic, Weiss, Lumin, Naim everything basically. I was drawn to the Aurender ACS100 initially because it has two HDDs programmable in RAID format and since I wanted back up protection I valued this feature. So I extensively compared the ACS100 against my smallish already ripped CD collection (ripped using DbPoweramp) by downloading onto the ACS100 HDD and from a USB and also freshly ripping CDs directly to the ACS100 HDD. The differences were very, very subtle but they were there in favour of the ACS. So I decided to rip my whole CD collection on the ACS100 and buy an N20. I have never subscribed to the bits is bits BS because a really resolving system will reveal many differences in digital cables etc. YMMV. |
@charles1dad: Where do you insert your Fidelizer Nikola 2 LPS unit into the chain link of your audio system, between transport and speakers, and what is it supposed to "do" or "add" to the performance of your current setup that you sense it presently may lack or could potentially use some "help" with? (I realize you haven’t yet received your Fidelizer, so I’m not asking you to comment on its performance - just on how you’re hoping it might improve the already-very-good sound quality of your system.) |
Hi, Fidelizer Nikola 2 is just a direct plug in LPS to use into the RS2T in place of the supplied wall wart. No different than if I used Pro-Ject's own optional LPS in place of their wall wart. Virtually everyone who's tried a LPS with the RS2T says the sound quality takes a step upward. I will soon find out. Charles |
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Ah, Charles, now I understand - I, too, am getting an LPS (from Linear Tube Audio - their LPS+Linear Power Supply). For a moment I was thinking you were inserting a device into the audio chain itself! Instead, you are improving one you already have. So, we’ll both soon be finding out what an LPS does to enhance the performance of our little CD Boxes. Another thing: I am finding that sometimes my CD BOX cannot read standard Red-Book CDs which, when I carefully inspect them, are free of fingerprints, dirt and scratches and appear to be pristine. Whenever this happens, I find that shutting off and re-starting my transport sometimes helps. I also have a de-static-ing tool I bought some time ago from Mapleshade in Baltimore, MD, which neutralizes built up electrostatic charges on LPs and CDs. When I click my static-charge neutralizer, it generates a high voltage which jumps across its little terminals like tiny bolts of lightning and neutralizes static charges which can build up in cold, dry winter weather (try walking across a carpet in your stockinged feet and touch a metal object like a doorknob with your hand - you’ll hear a ’snap!’ and feel an electric shock). These tactics seem to work to clear up the problem and my CD BOX is again able to read my CD instead of showing that large green or red "X" superimposed over a yellow CD outline. |
@erictal4075 - Just curious if you will be contacting the Project team about the problem you are encountering, and, if so will you be willing to pass on to the Forum the response/correction? |
my apologies, I had assumed the gryphon was also just a transport. indeed, it really would be interesting to see how much more performance can be squeezed out of the humble silver disk, and I agree that acoustic arts transport certainly looks very nice. I would also be interested to hear what difference your LPS makes. |
@ facten: I haven’t so far thought to contact the Pro-Ject Audio Team about this issue, because it seems to me to be a localized issue related to living in the freezing-cold Midwest, where right now the relative humidity is very low (< 30% in sub-zero windchill readings in the Chicago area, where I live), and where in my condo, the heat has to be constantly on to defend against the strong winds buffeting my building and further drying the air). All you have to do under these conditions is walk across a carpeted room while wearing socks (no shoes) and you’ll build up a major charge of static electricity. When I take a CD out of its jewel case and insert it into my Pro-Ject Audio CD Box transport, I must be giving it a static charge which somehow prevents the laser pickup from "reading" the CD, causing my transport to eventually stop trying to load it and declare "NO CD" present in the drive (indicated by a big green or red letter ’X’ superimposed over a yellow outline of a CD on the front panel). By "zapping" my CD with the little static-charge neutralizer I bought from Mapleshade Audio of Baltimore, MD, several years ago, I am once again able to get my CD Box to recognize and play my CDs. You make a good point, though - I should let Pro-Ject’s people know about this problem, and then find out what they have to say about it. If I learn anything from them regarding this matter, I’ll make sure to post it here.
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Hi I'll post my listening impressions of wall wart power versus LPS differences (Or lack of) via the Pro-Ject CD Box RS2T. Charles |
@erictal4075 - Thank you. |
I owned the Aurender ACS100 and compared the rips from it to my iMac using DBpoweramp. Zero difference in sound quality. The ACS100 has a cheap TEAC CD drive and and a HDD. There is nothing special about the ripping architecture in the Aurender, and Aurender doesn’t make any claims about the ripping quality of the ACS100 compared to other methods. By the way in my system and in my opinion the ACS100, which I purchased new didn’t sound good to me as compared to my PS Audio Directstream DAC w/bridge II. I sold it at a loss. |
