Both of you ask very good questions.
Answering yours first, jperry, I have the Pro-Ject CD Box RS2 T feeding via AES/EBU a Holo Audio 'MAY' KTE version DAC, connected to a Holo Audio 'Serene' KTE version preamp driving a pair of ATC self-powered 3-way studio monitor loudspeakers. I listen as well using an ifi iCAN headphone amp, fed from the MAY DAC, powering Meze Audio's Empyrean ELITE headphones, so I'm able to hear very well what this little CD transport can do. I have not heard either one of the two far-more-expensive alternatives, and I am curious as to why they are so much higher-priced than the CD Box.
In response to your equally good question, thyname, I am making a statement about how absurd I find the differential in price among these three CD players to be while at the same time asking if anyone else on this forum has any deeper knowledge of or experience with either of the two higher-priced components, who could shed light on their performance and possible reasons why they might recommend one or the other over the Pro-Ject despite their far higher cost.
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Well said, Charles! Spot on.
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I will not be overly surprised to see China’s Jay’s Audio, sooner rather than later, come ’round to the realization that, as word of the Pro-Ject CD Box RS2 T spreads ever wider, they will have to relent from their current stance and start building their CDT2-MK3 (or its as-yet unnamed successor) around the latest and greatest top-loading transport mechanism used in the CD Box and elsewhere.
If Jay’s Audio continues on its present course, my guess is they will soon find themselves left far behind in the sales dust as customers in the know no longer will voluntarily settle for their beautifully-made CD transport, but one unfortunately handicapped by its technologically obsolete and no-longer-manufactured top-loading CD mechanism. This outcome is all the more likely because the Jay’s in its present form is priced so closely with the CD Box RS2 - and also because nearly everyone agrees that its sound is no match to the CD Box’s.
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It is distressing to me to see this thread, which I as its initiator intended to be a robust and honest debate over price-for-value considerations in three CD transports (ok, the GRYPHON is technically a PLAYER because it has an in-built DAC), But, unintentionally, this discussion has, for reasons indecipherable to me, devolved into an anti-semitic rant.
Such is life on the Internet, which is open to ALL comers, including those who are very easily derailed by the slightest pebble left on the railway tracks, which causes them to veer off the rails into discussions totally unrelated to the subject at hand (do as the Swiss Albula Railway does - put your heavy locomotives at the FRONT of your trains whenever there is a heavy snowfall along your railway’s routes: ★ 4K 🇨🇭Samedan - Albulabahn - Chur; cab ride after over 1 meter snowfall [12.2020 - YouTube )! It is filmed in 2160p 4k.
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The YouTube video of the Swiss Albula Railway to which I posted a link in my comment above to illustrate how we can avoid being derailed off the primary topic in this thread (by placing the heavy electric locomotive at the FRONT of our train of thought in difficult weather conditions) is, in and of itself, a remarkable find and well worth viewing in its own right.
It never occurred to me, until I came across this video quite by chance, that someone somehow was motivated to and managed to get themself and their hi-rez 4k 2160p video camera on board the locomotive of a train as it began its journey through the Swiss Alps in midwinter.
The planning, surveying and engineering that went into the building of this world-heritage railway way back in 1903, is nothing less that spectacular. The builders, with the limited tools they had available to them at that time, nonetheless let nothing deter them from their determination to build their line to completion. If they ran head-on into an impassable mountain, they tunneled straight through it. If they reached a point where they had no choice but to gain or reduce altitude to continue along their surveyed route, they bored spiral tunnels inside a mountain, like a corkscrew, to solve the problem. They built massive stone viaducts across valleys, and snowsheds (galleries) above the tracks where avalanches were a constant threat. You get to see all this for yourself on this journey - if you choose to watch this video, be sure to start it at its beginning - YouTube has a way of landing viewers in the middle rather than at the starting point of its videos.
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Charles, you are right to separate the truly absurdly-priced Gryphon ’Ethos’ at $39k from the far more reasonably-priced (by comparison) Aqua ’La Diva’ transport at $9k, which is four times less costly. You can buy yourself a pretty decent automobile for $39k!
I myself am becoming curious to know what Aqua has done with its build incorporating the CD Unlimited Pro-8 drive, also used in Pro-Ject’s RS2 T.
I must confess that I was initially blown away by the price differential among these three machines.
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Immersed in watching the video I posted above, I see a connection between the kind of inspired talent those railway engineers of so long ago displayed so spectacularly and courageously applies in a different but equally impressive way to what the best minds of today are doing when confronting the challenges of converting digital "ones and zeros" into analog sound that our ears and brains can perceive as a true-to-life replication of the original recorded event. Pioneering efforts all the way around.
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@lalitk: Which CD Ripper did you get, and do you know what kind of CD-reading mechanism it uses? You describe your Ripper as being "high quality" - therefore you must be reasonably confident that the device inside your Ripper which reads the data off your CDs is trustworthy, and not merely some generic off-the-shelf Blue-Ray, CD-ROM or DVD-ROM mechanism.
If your Ripper uses the same transport mechanism found in the Pro-Ject CD BOX RS2 T, then you’re likely getting the best transfer currently possible of your CDs’ data into your SSD storage.
Is your CD-ripping machine a top-loader, or does it have an opening/closing tray which slides out the front of the unit to receive your CDs, or does it have a narrow slot into which you insert your CDs, which are then "swallowed" (drawn in) by your Ripper?
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ANYONE electing to "RIP" (copy) a Red Book Compact Disk to a mechanical HD or SSD has two primary options or means to do so: either on a standard PC which uses a built-in generic CD-ROM, DVD-ROM or Blu-Ray tray mechanism into which we insert our CD and UPON WHICH we totally DEPEND to faithfully read the "ones and zeros" off our CD and transfer them to hard-drive storage for later retrieval.
OR one can take a different approach to ripping their CD collection to a storage hard drive besides using a standard PC and use a machine specifically designed and constructed for the sole purpose of ripping CDs, which does essentially the same thing as a PC, only in a presumably far more uniquely purposeful and high-quality manner (such as amadeus888’s Aurender ACS100, whose SOLE raison d’être is ripping CDs).
HOWEVER, the point of this discussion of CD rippers is to evaluate the nature and quality of the laser transport mechanism used in generic computer CD-ROMS and dedicated machines like the Aurender ACS100 alike.
My contention is that if the new Philips-based Stream Unlimited CD Pro-8 drive makes such a radical difference to how well Red-Book CDs sound as compared to playing them over older, less advanced-design CD-spinning mechanisms, then the quality and nature of the CD-reading mechanism in the Aurender could very likely affect how a ripped CD sounds when played back from its storage drive.
I can’t personally attest to any sonic difference, if there is one, since I have no way to directly compare the sound of a CD played over my new Pro-Ject CD Box RS2 T to the sound of the same CD ripped on an Aurender ACS100. Until someone does a direct comparison of the two, this discussion will remain at a subjective guessing-game level.
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@ laoman: Are you saying that the two higher-priced machines sound better because YOU have auditioned them and can personally vouch for their sonic superiority, or are you saying so because you BELIEVE that, BECAUSE they cost more, they SHOULD AUTOMATICALLY sound better?
Whenever you make a strong, definitive statement like this one, you owe it to your readers to stand behind your assertion with some form of proof.
@ david_ten: The Aurender ACS100 is a purpose-built CD ripper, costing far more than a standard PC, so it stands to reason that we can PRESUME that it does its job in a higher-quality manner of execution, far better than we should expect a standard, run-of-the-mill PC, to do.
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@charles1dad: Where do you insert your Fidelizer Nikola 2 LPS unit into the chain link of your audio system, between transport and speakers, and what is it supposed to "do" or "add" to the performance of your current setup that you sense it presently may lack or could potentially use some "help" with? (I realize you haven’t yet received your Fidelizer, so I’m not asking you to comment on its performance - just on how you’re hoping it might improve the already-very-good sound quality of your system.)
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Ah, Charles, now I understand - I, too, am getting an LPS (from Linear Tube Audio - their LPS+Linear Power Supply). For a moment I was thinking you were inserting a device into the audio chain itself! Instead, you are improving one you already have.
So, we’ll both soon be finding out what an LPS does to enhance the performance of our little CD Boxes.
Another thing: I am finding that sometimes my CD BOX cannot read standard Red-Book CDs which, when I carefully inspect them, are free of fingerprints, dirt and scratches and appear to be pristine. Whenever this happens, I find that shutting off and re-starting my transport sometimes helps. I also have a de-static-ing tool I bought some time ago from Mapleshade in Baltimore, MD, which neutralizes built up electrostatic charges on LPs and CDs. When I click my static-charge neutralizer, it generates a high voltage which jumps across its little terminals like tiny bolts of lightning and neutralizes static charges which can build up in cold, dry winter weather (try walking across a carpet in your stockinged feet and touch a metal object like a doorknob with your hand - you’ll hear a ’snap!’ and feel an electric shock). These tactics seem to work to clear up the problem and my CD BOX is again able to read my CD instead of showing that large green or red "X" superimposed over a yellow CD outline.
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@ facten: I haven’t so far thought to contact the Pro-Ject Audio Team about this issue, because it seems to me to be a localized issue related to living in the freezing-cold Midwest, where right now the relative humidity is very low (< 30% in sub-zero windchill readings in the Chicago area, where I live), and where in my condo, the heat has to be constantly on to defend against the strong winds buffeting my building and further drying the air). All you have to do under these conditions is walk across a carpeted room while wearing socks (no shoes) and you’ll build up a major charge of static electricity. When I take a CD out of its jewel case and insert it into my Pro-Ject Audio CD Box transport, I must be giving it a static charge which somehow prevents the laser pickup from "reading" the CD, causing my transport to eventually stop trying to load it and declare "NO CD" present in the drive (indicated by a big green or red letter ’X’ superimposed over a yellow outline of a CD on the front panel). By "zapping" my CD with the little static-charge neutralizer I bought from Mapleshade Audio of Baltimore, MD, several years ago, I am once again able to get my CD Box to recognize and play my CDs.
You make a good point, though - I should let Pro-Ject’s people know about this problem, and then find out what they have to say about it. If I learn anything from them regarding this matter, I’ll make sure to post it here.
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The fact that the Gryphon ETHOS CD Player is priced at U.S.$39,000.00, speaks to the reality that there ARE people roaming the surface of our Planet Earth to whom PRICE IS TRULY NO OBJECT. Please bear in mind that you can buy yourself a pretty handsome and decent automobile for this amount of money
Therefore, it is incumbent upon manufacturers who cater for these people’s obsessive desire and need to pay the maximum conceivable amount for a product, whether in U.S., Canadian or Australian Dollars, Euros or British Pound Sterling, to price it accordingly!
There really is no other rational explanation for this phenomenon.
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@ notlistening:
Interesting point you make: my guess is that Elon Musk and his Tesla brand of electric cars (and the move toward electric-powered cars in general) are driving up the average new-car price.
I know it’s off-topic, but with respect to transitioning from gas-fueled to electric cars, "range anxiety" plus the time it takes to fully recharge an electric car versus "gassing up" a petrol vehicle, remain full game-stoppers for me. Hybrids currently offer us the best climate vs. practical convenience option we have right now.
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No, lordmelton, your buying those $15k interconnects didn’t magically transform you into a ’bad’ person in any way. It’s far more likely that you might have been scammed out of your hard-earned money, but as charles1dad has pointed out, that is for you to decide.
I do have to wonder why some audio gear is priced as astronomically highly as it is ($100k for a DAC). The audiophile world is reknowned in some quarters for its unrestrained extravagance. Take a look at the INVICTUS NEO record turntable, listed at US$189,995.00. Invictus Neo - Acoustic Signature That price is for the turntable alone. You want a tone arm for it? Then you’ll pay more.
Fortunately, most of us manage very well with far less costly gear. The Pro-Ject CD Box RS2 T is a stellar example of a truly excellent value-for-money purchase.
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Yes, agreed, Charles - the photo nonoise has posted on Page 2 of this thread on 01/05/’22 shows the newer AA transport. Perhaps earlier-on he’d posted an image of the older AA machine, perhaps the one acresverde saw, and then later on realized he’d made a mistake and edited/replaced it.
According to AA’s website, both CD transports are shown as presumably still available, but the older version, the Drive I, has the obsolete, no-longer-manufactured CD laser transport mechanism, which is also a tray-loader.
It looks like AA went for a complete redesign effort when they decided to employ the newest CD laser-reading mechanism, since it called for a major re-think of all the components serving it. The AA Drive II is one hefty chunk of machinery weighing in at > 40 lbs!
What I find rather odd about the AA Drive II is that it offers only one Toslink Optical and one COAX digital output. Even the humble Pro-Ject CD Box RS2 T has an AES/EBU and an i2s port. My guess is the engineers at Accustic Arts must have decided that a good, well-designed COAX digital out is all one really needs; the Toslink optical output strikes me as a concession to older technology. Does anyone today take optical digital transmission seriously?
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@ acresverde: Which version of the Accustic Arts CD transport do you have, and how long have you had it - plus, of course, how do you like it?
For a CD transport costing USD$18k, if that is the version you own, it seems to me that it ought to offer its owner more than just one optical and one COAX digital output.
An i2s HDMI port seems to be logically the next best additional digital-out option made available, but perhaps because 1), there IS no standard configuration for i2s HDMI ports, and 2), because so many of the i2s ports that ARE included on CD transports are useful ONLY with a proprietary DAC made by the same company, I can see why your AA machine doesn’t include one. AES/EBU is nice to have but sounds no better or worse than COAX.
Do you other participants on this thread find that i2s HDMI ports are an overblown feature which most of us can quite happily live without?
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@ acresverde: Yours is the best tribute I can imagine anyone giving a piece of audio equipment they have owned and used for as long as you have, your AA CD Drive 1 - with no problems whatsoever! Says a lot about the quality of your transport and the excellence of its design, as well as the care you’ve given it.
I suppose at this point your transport won’t have much trade-in value against the cost of a new CD Drive 2 - but the fact that it still performs as well and sounds as great as it does is a huge plus.
Now we are all waiting with bated breath for charles1dad to give us his report on how his Pro-Ject CD Box RS2 T sounds since he received his new linear power supply for it! I’m sure he’s giving it time to break itself in before he says anything about the difference it makes to the sound compared to that from his original "wall-wart" switching power supply.
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@ charles1dad : Thank you for sharing with us your updated impressions - it's good for those who prefer to stick with their switching-power-supply wall-warts to know that they're not missing out on too much, while those of us, like myself, who are upgrading to quality linear power supplies for our RS2 transports, have some subtle yet not insignificant new sonic experiences to look forward to.
This is what I'd call a "win-win" situation all around.
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I just got notice tonight that my Linear Tube Audio power supply for my CD Box is due to arrive on Monday, so I'm about to embark on my own auditory voyage of discovery. I'm very glad and impressed to hear your story, Charles, as your setup continues to break in so impressively. Seems to verify everything we've heard about the improvements "going linear" can make to our little CD Boxes (don't be fooled by how small they are)!
Big boys sometimes arrive in small packages.
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@ tommylion: A very good question, needing more insight than perhaps most of us here have. It’s worth asking the Pro-Ject people themselves. If the inability to program tracks on the RS2 T is also duplicated on any or all of the other transports discussed in this thread which also employ the CD Pro 8 drive mechanism, then it COULD be a limitation built into the laser mechanism itself.
It’s also possible that transports using the CD Pro 8 CAN be made programmable, but this option has been omitted perhaps because very few people buying premium-grade CD transports and players have asked to have it included. Programmability may be viewed as a "consumer-grade" option found mainly on cheap, inexpensive CD players.
Thinking more about it, it seems to me that if you can select tracks using the remote, the ability to program them should also be there - it simply has to be accommodated - but for the possible reasons described above, it has been left out as being of little interest to most users.
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@ charles1dad and anyone else interested in reports of improvements to the sound from their Pro-Ject RS2 T CD Boxes by powering them with a linear power supply instead of the included switching wall wart:
Here’s how I describe my experience so far - I just received my Linear Tube Audio Model LPS + power unit, customized to supply 20 volts D.C. rated at 3 amperes to my CD Box.
First of all, Linear Tube Audio was excellent at fulfilling my order in a very prompt and timely manner - to me they represent the kind of honest business that we can all be proud of - they "delivered the goods." On their website they say that they break in their power supplies before they ship them so that their users can enjoy their full benefits right out of the box.
In the 24 hours since I received it yesterday and connected it to my little CD transport, I can say that I immediately had the sensation of hearing a more solid "underpinning" to the sound - that the CD Box is now resting upon a far more solid "foundation" than the one offered by its little wall wart (which is still adequate).
The QUALITY of electric power appears to make a big difference to how well the Pro-Ject RS2 T transport performs and sounds - my way of describing the improvement in sound I’ve experienced so far is analogous to the difference between a misty spray of water, full of air bubbles, coming from a faucet versus a steady, clear flow of water, both supplied at the same pressure (20 volts). It’s like the transport NEEDS and TAKES FULL ADVANTAGE of the additional energy a good linear power supply is able to provide it.
This is my way of describing the difference my new power supply is making - the music I’m hearing is coming from a SOLID FOUNDATION rather than from one made from squishy Styrofoam! A GOOD, well-designed linear power supply with ample power reserves is precisely what these CD Box transports appear to need to perform at their full capacity.
I’m sure, broken-in as my new power unit is already claimed to be, it and my transport will continue to evolve sonically upward over time. I’m very happy with my fresh-out-of-the-box results so far.
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@ tommylion : You’ve made it abundantly clear by now that your PRIMARY objective is to own a CD transport or player which lets you select ONLY those tracks on a CD which you want to hear, whilst skipping over (OMITTING) all the rest.
With a little due diligence, perhaps aided by doing a Google search, you should be able to lay your hands on a half-way-decent programmable CD player.
You may have to sacrifice some degree of sound quality in order to satisfy and fulfill your other, far more urgent, requirements.
Such is life!
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@ charles1dad: The programmable alternatives you’ve suggested tommylion consider are all fine and good, but the P.S. Audio and Aqua HiFi units are far more costly than I suspect he’s willing to pay for a good-sounding programmable CD player. His best option price-wise at our talking level would be the Jay’s Audio unit, which costs approximately the same (US$3k) as our little CD Box does.
He’d be better off going for a "mid-fi" CD player of some kind or other at this point, which would have the added benefit of costing him less than US$1k.
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@ facten
You’re right - I was dismissive toward tommylion when I suggested that he take his search for a CD player down the "mid-fi" road. I was reacting to the impression he gave me that having a programmable feature in a CD player was far more important to him than how good that player sounded.
Thank you for giving tommylion very possibly the opportunity to "have his cake and eat it, too." I don’t know how much your Simaudio transport cost you, nor how much that cost might deter him. He strikes me as being rather price-conscious - which is why I suggested he take the mid-fi route. I wasn’t being so much dismissive as practical.
Contributors like yourself, facten, are who make this Audiogon discussion forum so valuable - it gives everyone the chance to suggest alternatives that others, like myself, did not know about. I have learned a great deal from reading the many other comments here.
Finally, in the quote below, I must address a common grammatical error I see all the time: when we confuse "compliment" with "complEment," especially when the latter is the word we want to use:
I’ll offer another that has programmable functionality - Simaudio 260DT. I have this transport. it has Sim’s proprietary mechanism and software and to my ears it is a very nice compliment to my Mojo Audio EVO DAC.
We COMPLIMENT (praise) people for their good looks, fine wardrobe and thoughtful behavior.
On the other hand, when you have an excellent piece of audio equipment (like your Simaudio 260DT) in your sound system, its presence COMPLEMENTS (adds greatly to, fleshes out) your system’s overall performance and thus your enjoyment of it.
Amazing how substituting just one letter for another in a word (like that ’i’ for an ’e’) can so completely alter that word’s meaning!
It’s no wonder the English Language is so very difficult to learn for people not raised on it.
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@ facten
Thanks for the price info.
In response to your reaction to my comment about your spelling error, I owe you an apology because I clearly made you feel that I was singling you out for criticism and to embarrass you in front of the community - when my intention was instead to take this opportunity to point out that this kind of spelling error is a completely understandable and very common mistake which we, ALL of us, make!
We’re seeing the same thing a LOT now with the confusion surrounding the meaning of "their," "there" and "they’re," and when and where to use which. All too often these days we’ll see someone write, "My cousins invited me and my girlfriend to spend the weekend at THERE home." Enough said!
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