Aqua 'La Diva' ($9k) or Gryphon 'Ethos' ($39k) versus. Pro-Ject CD Box RS2 T ($3k)?
What sensible rationale is there for buying either of the two above-mentioned VERY COSTLY CD spinners (Aqua ’La Diva,’ a CD-only transport, and the Gryphon ’Ethos,’ a CD player with built-in DAC) when we can get the same pure Red-Book CD digital output from the Pro-Ject CD Box RS2 T for FAR less money?
What is a potential buyer getting for their significantly increased expenditure other than fancy packaging and possibly a boost to their egos from ownership of a prestige brand-name item? The one component (and a crucially-significant one at that) which all three of these products have in common is the new Philips-basedStream Unlimited CD Pro 8 CDplayer mechanism. Aside than that, what one appears to get with the two far-higher-priced components is little more than pure window-dressing, not substantive gains in performance over the CD Box RS2 T.
It is little wonder that one reviewer of the RS2 T thinks of it as nothing less than a "giant killer," in that it makes it nearly impossible for any level-headed purchaser, even one with the means to spend lavishly, to rationalize spending thousands of dollars more on these two competing products (or on others like them) when one can get the same sonic results (which from most reports are splendid) from the humble little CD Box.
Any thoughts? Do we audiophiles finally have good reason to come to our buying senses? To me, Pro-Ject Audio Systems may have struck a true winning vein with their CD Box when prospecting for gold.
In response to your reaction to my comment about your spelling error, I owe you an apology because I clearly made you feel that I was singling you out for criticism and to embarrass you in front of the community - when my intention was instead to take this opportunity to point out that this kind of spelling error is a completely understandable and very common mistake which we, ALL of us, make!
We’re seeing the same thing a LOT now with the confusion surrounding the meaning of "their," "there" and "they’re," and when and where to use which. All too often these days we’ll see someone write, "My cousins invited me and my girlfriend to spend the weekend at THERE home." Enough said!
You’re right - I was dismissive toward tommylion when I suggested that he take his search for a CD player down the "mid-fi" road. I was reacting to the impression he gave me that having a programmable feature in a CD player was far more important to him than how good that player sounded.
Thank you for giving tommylion very possibly the opportunity to "have his cake and eat it, too." I don’t know how much your Simaudio transport cost you, nor how much that cost might deter him. He strikes me as being rather price-conscious - which is why I suggested he take the mid-fi route. I wasn’t being so much dismissive as practical.
Contributors like yourself, facten, are who make this Audiogon discussion forum so valuable - it gives everyone the chance to suggest alternatives that others, like myself, did not know about. I have learned a great deal from reading the many other comments here.
Finally, in the quote below, I must address a common grammatical error I see all the time: when we confuse "compliment" with "complEment," especially when the latter is the word we want to use:
I’ll offer another that has programmable functionality - Simaudio 260DT. I have this transport. it has Sim’s proprietary mechanism and software and to my ears it is a very nice compliment to my Mojo Audio EVO DAC.
We COMPLIMENT (praise) people for their good looks, fine wardrobe and thoughtful behavior.
On the other hand, when you have an excellent piece of audio equipment (like your Simaudio 260DT) in your sound system, its presence COMPLEMENTS (adds greatly to, fleshes out) your system’s overall performance and thus your enjoyment of it.
Amazing how substituting just one letter for another in a word (like that ’i’ for an ’e’) can so completely alter that word’s meaning!
It’s no wonder the English Language is so very difficult to learn for people not raised on it.
It is just frustrating from my perspective that Pro-Ject came so close to hitting a grand slam in terms of what I’m looking for in a CD transport, but then messed it up with an error or bad decision. Including track programming for those who want and appreciate it is a no-brainer, IMO. If it doesn’t impact sound quality, what's the downside?
Ignore the dismissive comment made above with respect to you settling for a midfi $1K player.
Aside from the options that Charles mentioned, I’ll offer another that has programmable functionality - Simaudio 260DT. I have this transport, it has Sim’s proprietary mechanism and software and to my ears it is a very nice compliment to my Mojo Audio EVO DAC. I use AES/XLR connection ; prefer it slightly to the SPDIF. Anyway, I have no idea how it sounds vis a vis the Project as I have not heard a Project in my system. Just offering it up as a possible consideration if you haven’t done so already as you explore your options. Good luck finding a transport that suits your overall requirements.
I do completely understand that individuals have their specific needs and programmability is a requirement for tommylion, no problem. I believe that Pro -Ject has probably concluded that it is a very low demand requested or utilized feature.
Why would you listen to CDs if you don't care about hearing an album as a complete work, instead of cherry-picking a few songs here and there? You have streaming and playlists for that, a vinyl/CD experience is the opposite of that. With physical formats, you take your time, like a good conversation with a friend. You don't say to them "please stop talking, I've heard the same story a hundred times and I want to talk about X that interests me more than your ramblings" do you?
Throwing a tantrum and making everything about yourself like a child... It's clearly a feature that 99.9% of the people don't use and including it would make the transport more expensive for everyone else. I don't see why Pro Ject or Stream Unlimited would like to spend additional money to cater for a minuscule minority of an already minuscule market of audiophiles.
And for transparency, I don't own the Pro Ject transport
@ charles1dad: The programmable alternatives you’ve suggested tommylion consider are all fine and good, but the P.S. Audio and Aqua HiFi units are far more costly than I suspect he’s willing to pay for a good-sounding programmable CD player. His best option price-wise at our talking level would be the Jay’s Audio unit, which costs approximately the same (US$3k) as our little CD Box does.
He’d be better off going for a "mid-fi" CD player of some kind or other at this point, which would have the added benefit of costing him less than US$1k.
The Pro-Ject transport is marvelously good!!! The lack of CD track programmability is simply a non factor (For me). @tommylionI'd give a serious look at P.S.Audio CD/SACD transport or the Jay's Audio CDT MK III as excellent sounding alternatives. If you want the CD Pro-8/Blue Tiger servo mechanism, it's also available with the Aqua Hifi La Diva M2 transport.
@ tommylion : You’ve made it abundantly clear by now that your PRIMARY objective is to own a CD transport or player which lets you select ONLY those tracks on a CD which you want to hear, whilst skipping over (OMITTING) all the rest.
With a little due diligence, perhaps aided by doing a Google search, you should be able to lay your hands on a half-way-decent programmable CD player.
You may have to sacrifice some degree of sound quality in order to satisfy and fulfill your other, far more urgent, requirements.
Virtually every player/transport since the dawn of CD has been programmable. It is one of the key advantages the format has over LPs or tape. Sure, some people don’t use, or care about, this feature, but having it available for those who do doesn’t hurt them in any way. Honestly, if it was a deliberate decision, I think it’s a pretty stupid one. I think the more likely scenario is that someone messed up, and they decided to act like it was deliberate, or no big deal, instead of fixing it.
The reports of this transport’s sound quality obviously have me very interested. If it had track programming, I’d be all over it. Yes, I value sound quality over features, but the omission of such a basic feature, that I highly value, and can’t see having any negative impact on sound quality, is hard to swallow.
Thanks for taking the time to report your early listening impressions with the Linear Tube Audio (LTA) power supply. You and I are using different brands of LPS but getting very similar positive results. This of course reinforces the significance of using high quality power for audio components. Every sonic parameter improves from A to Z.
Both of us were highly impressed with the Pro-Ject RS2 transport powered by the stock wall wart SMPS. This excellent transport is pushed to a higher tier of sound quality when used with a high quality linear power supply.
@ charles1dad and anyone else interested in reports of improvements to the sound from their Pro-Ject RS2 T CD Boxes by powering them with a linear power supply instead of the included switching wall wart:
Here’s how I describe my experience so far - I just received my Linear Tube Audio Model LPS + power unit, customized to supply 20 volts D.C. rated at 3 amperes to my CD Box.
First of all, Linear Tube Audio was excellent at fulfilling my order in a very prompt and timely manner - to me they represent the kind of honest business that we can all be proud of - they "delivered the goods." On their website they say that they break in their power supplies before they ship them so that their users can enjoy their full benefits right out of the box.
In the 24 hours since I received it yesterday and connected it to my little CD transport, I can say that I immediately had the sensation of hearing a more solid "underpinning" to the sound - that the CD Box is now resting upon a far more solid "foundation" than the one offered by its little wall wart (which is still adequate).
The QUALITY of electric power appears to make a big difference to how well the Pro-Ject RS2 T transport performs and sounds - my way of describing the improvement in sound I’ve experienced so far is analogous to the difference between a misty spray of water, full of air bubbles, coming from a faucet versus a steady, clear flow of water, both supplied at the same pressure (20 volts). It’s like the transport NEEDS and TAKES FULL ADVANTAGE of the additional energy a good linear power supply is able to provide it.
This is my way of describing the difference my new power supply is making - the music I’m hearing is coming from a SOLID FOUNDATION rather than from one made from squishy Styrofoam! A GOOD, well-designed linear power supply with ample power reserves is precisely what these CD Box transports appear to need to perform at their full capacity.
I’m sure, broken-in as my new power unit is already claimed to be, it and my transport will continue to evolve sonically upward over time. I’m very happy with my fresh-out-of-the-box results so far.
It’s also possible that transports using the CD Pro 8 CAN be made programmable, but this option has been omitted perhaps because very few people buying premium-grade CD transports and players have asked to have it included. Programmability may be viewed as a "consumer-grade" option found mainly on cheap, inexpensive CD players. Simply a lack of demand for this option.
I obviously don’t know for sure but this is a very plausible explanation.
@tommylion - you are missing out on a great transport (Pro-Ject RS2 T) by not considering it because of a lack of programability. Doesn’t make sense to me to give up great sound for functionality that I would use for perhaps one out of a couple hundred CDs. Even then I could just use the skip track button to get what I need.
I have only seen programability on lower end CD players, which I never used when I owned one back in the 80s.
@ tommylion: A very good question, needing more insight than perhaps most of us here have. It’s worth asking the Pro-Ject people themselves. If the inability to program tracks on the RS2 T is also duplicated on any or all of the other transports discussed in this thread which also employ the CD Pro 8 drive mechanism, then it COULD be a limitation built into the laser mechanism itself.
It’s also possible that transports using the CD Pro 8 CAN be made programmable, but this option has been omitted perhaps because very few people buying premium-grade CD transports and players have asked to have it included. Programmability may be viewed as a "consumer-grade" option found mainly on cheap, inexpensive CD players.
Thinking more about it, it seems to me that if you can select tracks using the remote, the ability to program them should also be there - it simply has to be accommodated - but for the possible reasons described above, it has been left out as being of little interest to most users.
Something I’d like to figure out; is the lack of the ability to program CD tracks inherent to the CD Pro 8 mechanism, or is it just a “feature” of the Pro-Ject RS2T?
Very apropos! It so fittingly characterizes the Pro-Ject RS2 transport. You are going to cherish your LTA LPS. Patience and burn-in is all that's required.
I just got notice tonight that my Linear Tube Audio power supply for my CD Box is due to arrive on Monday, so I'm about to embark on my own auditory voyage of discovery. I'm very glad and impressed to hear your story, Charles, as your setup continues to break in so impressively. Seems to verify everything we've heard about the improvements "going linear" can make to our little CD Boxes (don't be fooled by how small they are)!
I’m just past the 100 hour burn-in point with the Fidelizer Nikola 2 LPS. It is obviously evolving and continuing to improve its sound quality. Take what I wrote in my last post (50 hours) and honestly add an additional 10% improvement. As impressively good the Pro-Ject is with its supplied SMPS wall wart, the high quality LPS is simply the superior choice.
That is saying a lot but is the unadulterated truth. Given the progression I am hearing, I unequivocally recommend obtaining a good LPS. I wouldn’t try to go cheap here. Power supply quality is too important and vital to acquiring good sound. It will advance the Pro-Ject RS2 transport to its fullest sonic potential. The manufacturer told me 200 hours to achieve complete burn-in of this LPS, so I’m halfway there.
How much more is there to gain? I’ll find out. This Pro-Ject with LPS is a tremendous package. Truly stunningly good sound quality. An exceptional audio value if there ever was one.
@ charles1dad : Thank you for sharing with us your updated impressions - it's good for those who prefer to stick with their switching-power-supply wall-warts to know that they're not missing out on toomuch, while those of us, like myself, who are upgrading to quality linear power supplies for our RS2 transports, have some subtle yet not insignificant new sonic experiences to look forward to.
This is what I'd call a "win-win" situation all around.
I've have about 50 hours on my Fidelizer Nikola 2 LPS (Manufacturer said 200 hours for complete burn-in). Directly out of the shipping box with the initial listening exposure a few things were apparent within the first few hours and have gotten gradually better. In my opinion the Pro-Ject RS2 transport sounds excellent with the standard wall wart power supply. If someone decided to stop there they'd have a top level performing CD transport.
With the use of the Nickola 2 LPS there is not a "night and day" difference. It did not cause the wall wart powered Pro-Ject to sound broken. There are clearly noticeable improvements that elevate the sound quality from an already high standard.
1 The sound presentation opens up and the 3-dimensional aspect is heightened.
2 You are aware of distinct spacing and separation between the musicians.
3 Dynamic contrast is improved particularly lower level or micro dynamics, the overall sound is more nuanced. The subtle and small details are more apparent.
4 What's already excellent resolving ability is taken further.
5 The very good organic nature of the transport becomes more organic and the musical flow is just impressively natural. The antithesis of mechanical/electronic/canned.
6 The Pro-Ject straight out of the box with the wall wart has beautiful natural tonality of instruments and human voice. This my top sonic priority. I was actually surprised that this was improved. Wonderful fleshed out harmonically rich and fully expressed tone and timbre. Increased instrument reverberation and a very tactile/palpable presentation.
This is what I hear specifically with the Fidelizer Nikola 2 LPS. I suspect that other high quality LPS would do similar things. The Pro-Ject CD BOX RS2 transport with a very good LPS similar to mine paired with a high DAC is going to provide "superb " Redbook CD playback sound quality.
@ acresverde: Yours is the best tribute I can imagine anyone giving a piece of audio equipment they have owned and used for as long as you have, your AA CD Drive 1 - with no problems whatsoever! Says a lot about the quality of your transport and the excellence of its design, as well as the care you’ve given it.
I suppose at this point your transport won’t have much trade-in value against the cost of a new CD Drive 2 - but the fact that it still performs as well and sounds as great as it does is a huge plus.
Now we are all waiting with bated breath for charles1dad to give us his report on how his Pro-Ject CD Box RS2 T sounds since he received his new linear power supply for it! I’m sure he’s giving it time to break itself in before he says anything about the difference it makes to the sound compared to that from his original "wall-wart" switching power supply.
@erictal4075 I have the AA CD transport Drive 1. I bought new from Galen Carol at least 15 years ago. It has never had a service or a failure. I love it's substantial feel and heft. At 25 lbs., it's a chunk. And it has always delivered the goods sonically. I'd buy the new Ref Drive II in a heartbeat if not for the insurmountable cost factor. The Drive I has been a rock for me.
An i2s HDMI port seems to be logically the next best additional digital-out option made available, but perhaps because 1), there IS no standard configuration for i2s HDMI ports, and 2), because so many of the i2s ports that ARE included on CD transports are useful ONLY with a proprietary DAC made by the same company, I can see why your AA machine doesn’t include one. AES/EBU is nice to have but sounds no better or worse than COAX.
I believe that those are the primary issues with i2s. There are 4 different (Possibly more) iterations in use and the intent seems to be, use with a sibling -companion product. Good quality S/PDIF input/outputs and cable are proven capable of providing superb CD playback sound quality.
@ acresverde: Which version of the Accustic Arts CD transport do you have, and how long have you had it - plus, of course, how do you like it?
For a CD transport costing USD$18k, if that is the version you own, it seems to me that it ought to offer its owner more than just one optical and one COAX digital output.
An i2s HDMI port seems to be logically the next best additional digital-out option made available, but perhaps because 1), there IS no standard configuration for i2s HDMI ports, and 2), because so many of the i2s ports that ARE included on CD transports are useful ONLY with a proprietary DAC made by the same company, I can see why your AA machine doesn’t include one. AES/EBU is nice to have but sounds no better or worse than COAX.
Do you other participants on this thread find that i2s HDMI ports are an overblown feature which most of us can quite happily live without?
I'm in the stuartk camp. I have an AA transport now and want something similarly chunky and substantial the next go round. I'd be all over a Jay's with the SU CD Pro 8
Be optimistic. The 2 transport comparison review a few days ago by @theburbster1confirms the stellar performance of the affordable Pro-Ject transport and its high value proposition. All he described was with the wall wart to boot. I just got a LPS for my Pro-Ject and good Lord! It even better!!! Don't despair. Or were you just referring primarily to the aesthetic appeal?
@nonoise My bad. I was looking into this transport (the AA) two or three months ago and I swear they had the Ref II cd drive in the livery of their previous style they've been selling for years. But the entry level Drive 1 sported the new cosmetics as you pictured. Back to the website today and now both versions sport the new cosmetics. Sorry for the misinfo. Sadly, there is no scenario where I can see myself being able to pull off owning this kit, though. Even the AQUA La Diva would be a major stretch.
Yes, agreed, Charles - the photo nonoise hasposted on Page 2 of this thread on 01/05/’22 shows the newer AA transport. Perhaps earlier-on he’d posted an image of the older AA machine, perhaps the one acresverde saw, and then later on realized he’d made a mistake and edited/replaced it.
According to AA’s website, both CD transports are shown as presumably still available, but the older version, the Drive I, has the obsolete, no-longer-manufactured CD laser transport mechanism, which is also a tray-loader.
It looks like AA went for a complete redesign effort when they decided to employ the newest CD laser-reading mechanism, since it called for a major re-think of all the components serving it. The AA Drive II is one hefty chunk of machinery weighing in at > 40 lbs!
What I find rather odd about the AA Drive IIis that it offers only one Toslink Optical and one COAXdigital output. Even the humble Pro-Ject CD Box RS2 T has an AES/EBU and an i2s port. My guess is the engineers at Accustic Arts must have decided that a good, well-designed COAX digital out is all one really needs; the Toslink optical output strikes me as a concession to older technology. Does anyone today take optical digital transmission seriously?
There are so many things I cannot afford in this world. But I do NOT protest. I only look, then buy, only things I can afford. I do not consider people who own those things I cannot afford gullible, being scammed of hard earned money, etc. etc. It’s absolutely not my business
Yes, my assessment as well. I'm just happy to let others know that the Pro-Ject RS2T is simply excellent on sonic grounds and affordable for many.
@nonoise The AA transport you posted the pic of is not the Drive II reference (the one that uses the Stream Unlimited CD 8 Pro) but their entry level unit. The Ref Drive II is considerably more substantial (weighs double) and even better looking.
There are so many things I cannot afford in this world. But I do NOT protest. I only look, then buy, only things I can afford. I do not consider people who own those things I cannot afford gullible, being scammed of hard earned money, etc. etc. It’s absolutely not my business
No, lordmelton, your buying those $15k interconnects didn’t magically transform you into a ’bad’ person in any way. It’s far more likely that you might have been scammed out of your hard-earned money, but as charles1dad has pointed out, that is for you to decide.
I do have to wonder why some audio gear is priced as astronomically highly as it is ($100k for a DAC). The audiophile world is reknowned in some quarters for its unrestrained extravagance. Take a look at the INVICTUS NEO record turntable, listed at US$189,995.00. Invictus Neo - Acoustic Signature That price is for the turntable alone. You want a tone arm for it? Then you’ll pay more.
Fortunately, most of us manage very well with far less costly gear. The Pro-Ject CD Box RS2 T is a stellar example of a truly excellent value-for-money purchase.
OMG I've got a massive hard on for rich people and I'm just a poor person on a hifi forum and I've got a secret I paid $15k USD for a pair of interconnects once, does that make me bad? Should i have given the money to Bob Geldof or Sting?
Listen Douche go and have a listen if you don't think you're getting your $39K's worth just tell them you're going for a dump and don't go back.
Thanks. The comparison between the two vehicles you test drove weren't nearly as close as the two transport comparison mentioned above. Lucky for us music lovers. 😊 @erictal4075 a friend of mine recently purchased the MSB Select II, a 3 chassis (2 power supplies) DAC that retails for 100K and he is very happy with it and I'm happy for him. We all find the market niche that suits our desires and comfort zone .
Interesting point you make: my guess is that Elon Musk and his Tesla brand of electric cars (and the move toward electric-powered cars in general) are driving up the average new-car price.
I know it’s off-topic, but with respect to transitioning from gas-fueled to electric cars, "range anxiety" plus the time it takes to fully recharge an electric car versus "gassing up" a petrol vehicle, remain full game-stoppers for me. Hybrids currently offer us the best climate vs. practical convenience option we have right now.
Charles, glad you asked! I did drive both cars in 2004 and the Porsche was very comfortable but slow as molasses at 9+ seconds 0-60; R32 around 5 seconds. Cayenne with the turbo 8 cyl was quick enough but twice the $$$.
erictal, it's worth noting that the average new car price was $46,329- in November!
The fact that the Gryphon ETHOS CD Player is priced at U.S.$39,000.00, speaks to the reality that there ARE people roaming the surface of our Planet Earth to whom PRICE IS TRULY NO OBJECT. Please bear in mind that you can buy yourself a pretty handsome and decent automobile for this amount of money
Therefore, it is incumbent upon manufacturers who cater for these people’s obsessive desire and need to pay the maximum conceivable amount for a product, whether in U.S., Canadian or Australian Dollars, Euros or British Pound Sterling, to price it accordingly!
There really is no other rational explanation for this phenomenon.
I do not see how the Gryphon ETHOS CD player fits in this thread (As was pointed out earlier in this thread. Different type of prroduct and market segment ). Rather, I was referencing the insightful comparison of the Pro-Ject and Aqua La Diva M2 that @thebursrer1 was kind enough to share on this thread a few days ago.
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