Onhwy61: More proof that no good (or witty) post goes unpunished, eh? ;^) If this speaker is only half as great as some of its proponents are grim, they've really got a winner there! |
I wish I had a nickel for everytime someone used the old "I don't have a spare $500,000" line on me. |
Eldartford. You are right with these examples..but most every crossover I have seen dangles on the postive side only..Some very complex first order x-overs such as those found in some T---l speakers are tied across the positive leg and this may be part of why they are so reactive and difficult to drive..Having a symmetical crossover with components on both legs so as to balance the circuit {and the speaker becomes a part of the amp circuit} could only better serve the inner action of the amp and speaker..Tom |
Scotty333, Having heard the Caravelles on your tubes and on Hifimaniacs Big Krells, which sound do you prefer? I still don't know if I want to go tube or SS. |
Pal, ever hear the phrase "easy does it" or "one step at a time?" If Scotty heard the Caravelles with tubes and loved them; would you buy tubes? If I told you I prefer SS with the Caravelles more than tubes, would you buy them? Now after you go through the tube vs ss debate and decide: what SS or what tubes should I buy? What I'm trying to say is relax and hold on to what you've got. When you get your Caravelles with their dedicated stands, set them up, break them in, and become intimate with your new baby. Take it from there. The Caravelles will, in due time, let you know where you have to go. Fasten your seatbelt. This will be the first of some major audio aquisitions for you. Trust your tympanics. Sure there are going to be audiophools who may not like the Caravelles. Show the color black to enough people and someone is going to see blue. There won't be many, though. Keep us posted with your impressions. happy listening...warren |
Theaudiotweak...I didn't mention it before, but why should the amplifier care where the crossover network is located? Try hooking up the speaker with red and black wires reversed, so that the crossover is in the return leg. Does it sound any different? (Assuming that you have accounted for the inversion elsewhere in the system)
Having, as a DIY guy, played around with both series and parallel crossovers I don't see a performance advantage of one over the other. The series is more difficult to execute in practice (not harder to design), and we all have the gut feeling that if something is difficult to achieve it must be of great value. This is an opening for marketing. Actually, I like low level electronic crossovers, or, in the ideal, a full range speaker (where the crossover is mechanical in the form of cone breakup).
Vive la difference. |
Warren, You're getting to be a real Oracle, are you from Delphi? :-)
Pal, Warren is totally on point. I would add to his comments that if these speakers are as revealing etc as reputed they should be as critical of the sonic quality of the components attached to them as are most other quality high end speakers. One of the things that (should) make them great is their ability to dig out the detail from the software. Unfortunately that same ability will allow them to dig out all of the qualities, good and bad, of the electronics. That same ability also makes auditioning difficult unless you already have some kind of reference point, you won't know if something you don't like is because of the speaker or the (?) amp. If the speakers like your present electronics, sonically speaking, you are at a great starting point. FWIW, on paper at least, these speakers should be great for medium powered tube amps which are available on the used market in, or close to, your price range. Take your time and have fun. |
Newbee, well said. We Oracles have to stay together..... |
Pal, I am partial to tubes. IMO - more presence, detail and 3 dimensionality. But the Caravelles sounded great on the Krell. The most 3 dimensional Krell I have heard. I don't want to get into a tubes vs. ss.....but I do prefer tubes, your mileage may vary? |
Onhwy61: Your nickel's in the mail ;^) |
Eldartford..if you invert the phase the amp is still out of balance with the speaker because of all the crap hanging on one leg ..doesn't matter which leg..Tom |
Pal, I have the Caravelle and I LOVE this thread.Please keep it up. (It all WARREN fault,he was the first owner.) I`ve been Happy every since I got them.)
|
Theaudiotweak...Unless the amp is bridged, or is one of the new digital amps, the output is unbalanced anyway, and I don't see how location of the crossover would affect it.
If you really think this is important it would be easy enough to split the crossover components between legs... for example: a 4 mH inductor could be implemented as two 2mH inductors. Such a crossover would look PERFECTLY symetrical in a schematic. You can't say that about a series crossover because either the woofer or the tweeter must "come first".
Actually I think all this is academic, and good crossovers (to the extent that any crossover is good) can be made either way. |
Try what? Imagine what? Create what? It's all been done before.Its all black and white..No shades of gray ..no color...boundaries ..no boundaries.Who'da thunk it, its purely academic. Tom |
Pal, I'll answer your question of tubes or solid state having heard the Caravelles with my Krell and Scotts VAC, go with tubes...the musicality, inner detail and lushness is the best. I have to admit, I have never enjoyed my Krell more than with the Caravelles because of the sweetness in the tweeter, the voicing of the midrange and the big, 3D sound stage. I have owned Watt/Puppy 5.1's, B&W 801 Matrix III's and now the MAXX from Wilson and truly the musicality with the Caravelle was the best. |
Thanks guys for the information. I have to look into an amp now because I sold my old amp and speakers. All I have is a CD player and preamp. I am asking about the amps because I want to give the speakers a fair chance. I was leaning toward tubes but have never owned any tube amps before. I have had tube preamps with SS amps and that worked well. I might try it the other way around this time. I am not at all familiar with tube amps, so I can use advise on some good amps. How are the less expensive VAC amps. The PHI series is a little out of my current price range. I am also looking at the Butler 2250 and Music Reference RM 9. |
I'll chime in here. Pal, if you are looking at the RM9, you are a smart man. Blcube is using one with his Caravelles and you wouldn't believe how great it sounds. Great match. I have an RM9 as well with my Montanas and I love this amp. If you can find one, I'd say go for it.
Oz |
Pal, which stands did you purchase for the Caravelles? I suppose (the most popular choice) you're getting the dedicated stands, but I'm waiting to find an audiophool who went for their Sistrum Mini Platform stands. Those are the ones on their website, that look like black dunce caps with audiopoints. Acutually I had my Revel M20s on those babies a long while before the Caravelles were even born. Didn't take long to sell my Revels once I heard the Caravelles. I get ooldles of great reaction (of course the sound too) to the visual of the speakers/stands. (the Sistrum component stands, as well) Really makes for quite an esoteric, lean and unique look. |
Pal, most amplifiers, whether they are tube or transistor, will work fine with the Caravelles, as long as there is enough power for the 89db sensitivity of the Caravelles.
I'm sure that most audiophile amplifiers over 40 watts would do the job(at least as a "minumim"). We have been using our prototype Harmonic Precision HP-110 amplifiers on the show circuit, which are 100wpc solid state monoblocks.
Thus, I suspect that a very high quality 100wpc amplifier from other companies may be quite satisfactory in this application.
The impedance curve on the Caravelles is very flat(non reactive) and will be a very easy load on any amplifier at 7 ohms nominal, with very very little variation in impedance over the band. This characteristic would make them an excellent match with many tube amps, as well.
As any excellent speaker should do, the Caravelles will play what goes into them, from any amp you choose. Make your amp(and the rest of the signal chain) high-quality, and you'll receive the benefits of the speakers.
Speaking on a personal note here, as a Berning amp owner myself(Berning 45 SET-ZOTL), I'd love to hear what a Berning ZH-270 would sound like with the Caravelles. I'll bet that would be an unbelieveable combination.
Another possibility might be one of these new "ICE module" digital amps, or tri-path amps which are gaining alot of sonic acclaim these days. They can be affordable, too. There are alot of very good amps out there, and I don't mean to really single any out, but just mentioned some things that seem to be "all the buzz" right now. Just remember that the amp is a very important part of the signal chain, so pick a nice one. Your Caravelles deserve it.
Tom Lyons
Starsound Technologies |
Warrenh, I did go with the dedicated stands. The stands on the website do look interesting. It must be kind of tough to adjust speaker position, but once they are set up that is no longer an issue. I am sure they work quite well.
Ozzy62 or Blcube what is the difference between the RM 9 and the MK II version? |
I forgot to add the SS amps I was considering Sim W-5, Plinius SA 102, Ayre V5X, Pass X150.5 or X250. |
My stands are downright impossible to place once the Caravelles are atop them and a bear to place by themselves. The most minor adjustment, with my stands, requires speaker removal. Each of the three legs moves individually. A real pain in the ass for set up. The sound, however, beautifully molifies the perspiration and the "oh shit" or two that are required. The dedicated stands have to be easier to deal with. Never-the- less: it will be worth it.... |
I have had someone tell me that because this is a ported design, I will be able to hear the port. He said because it is a small speaker that I would hear it in the mids. Can anyone explain what he means by this? |
"I have had someone tell me that because this is a ported design, I will be able to hear the port."
I had someone tell me something equally idiotic once. As a result, I no longer speak with him. |
Pal...It probably means that he doesn't like ported speakers, and this is one potential problem he can cite about them. I suggest that you listen for yourself. By the way I prefer sealed speakers myself, but it's your nickle. |
PAL if you find a Music Reference RM9 MK11 to go with the CARAVELLE.I Promise you want be Disappointed at all.We`re talking about Rich Rich musical sound quality here.Not dark,not a warm sound.A full Rich sound.I`ll let Ozzy62 expland the difference,he has the RM9 and I have the RM9 MK11. |
Man, this thread has being going on so long, I forgot what we were talking 'bout. Oh yeah, the Caravelles. BTB, there is a Yba Integre on the 'gon for sale. I owned this baby for 7 hears. 50 of the best SS watts these ears have ever heard. You won't be disappointed. And if you are? Sell it back on the 'gon for what you paid. Also, there's a few Brystons, as well. Owned the 4B in my Maggie days. Another nice one, though I'd grab the integre over the Bryston. just a little fwiw. Pal, this is a very personal choice. You'll get recommendations up the whazoo. And all probably worth checking into. You're soon going to have a pair of speakers that will do justice to just about anything you hook up to them. Fasten your seatbelt. You may, also, be disappointed in some amps. Great speakers have a way of showing up the inherent weaknesses of other components, as well. |
Don't tell Warren they have cheap drivers, he'll go ballistic! ;-) |
You know how exspensive the drivers are in the Jm lab Altos? The Utopia Be Micros? Those toxic Beryllium super marketing hoopla tweeters? The Wilson Maxx? The Sonus Faber Cremonoas? How do you figure the Caravelles have em all beat? (I confess, I have not heard the Wilsons, but you've heard it already in this thread about the Maxxes vs the Caravelles.) Hey I realize this has sounded like a Caravelle reunion and it needed some disparaging remark or two from the "usual suspects." Don't matter. These babies are the real deal, regardless of the innards. I'd be more concerned how come some speakers costing a lot more don't hold up vs the Caravelles. Let's wait to see what Srajan says. When he goes ga ga over them, the usuals can beat the verbal s... out of him....i love Audiogon...peace, warren |
"How do you figure the Caravelles have em all beat?"
Only you and few people here who say that.
Whatever you do with the $39 Peerless and $27 Seas it won't sound good, let's not say great please.
"see what Srajan says"
Ussualy, he will describe the parts and components in detail with some photos and prices on his review. Let's wait wheter he will make an exception in this case to cover it up something or not.
$132 (MSRP) for all drivers and sell it for $5,000?
I'm just wondering how much did you really pay for it?
If it's even needed it ! |
Gendut3...I think that a "$39 Peerless and $27 Seas" with the right enclosure and crossover might sound good, and I bet that a few people have already put their orders in to Madisound. It's the price that seems out of line. But as I said before "it's your nickle". |
Eldartford,personally,i haven't heard the CSC-X but i owned the HDS 850467,it's still cheap at $62.80. (top of the line with the same cone material).
I always test the drivers (except tweeter) with no X-over to get the original timbre/tonality.
The HDS was a shamed compare with SS 18W/8531G-00.
If the top of the line was unlistenable,what do you expect from his brother? |
Gendut3, my man. You are very naive if you think that the sole determing factor of speaker pricing rests on the cost of the drivers, alone. I'm not going to go into Economics 101 with you, but it seems you're a tad angry about the $5k. How is it that a Mont Blanc pen (parts are $4.50) sells for $100. Have any idea what the driver/price ratio of other hi end speakers is? The core, the DNA, the soul of a two way (or any speaker) speaker is in the crossover. You think a crossover, like the one, developed for the Caravelle comes from Radio Shack? Also, you obviously do not have a clue about the dedicated stands, their complexity, cost and their sonic relationship to the Caravelles. I could go on, but I think I should wait 'til a professional reviewer puts their tympanics on the line. You can take it up with him. 'tis late, and I'm getting tired. Tomorrow, after a good nights sleep, my grey matter reignited, I'll (maybe) go at it some more if this thread still lives...good night..peace, warren |
Please send me a sample of your rendition of this product so I may compare with the original..Tom |
I believe this speaker should be compared with the SP Tech Timepiece 2.1's and, the Lipinski L707's. Although both of these are less expensive than the Caravelle, they are similar in that they belong to the larger monitor full range type speakers. The on-line reviews and comments that I have come across point to the Timepiece's and L707's being superb examples of very high-end relatively full range speakers with the purpose of spelling out the truth. No doubt all three are very good, just a matter of subjective preferences. |
Warrenh,what do you think inside your speakers? I'm even surprised if there is any Mundorf Silver Supreme cap or silver coils in it to match with those drivers.
I'm not angry with 5K speakers as long as they are reasonable priced.
Let's say Mini Utopia Be retail for 6K,they are imported from France. They have a US distributor and their speakers needed to be shipped plus custom tax. And look at their ads which cost them much more than the speakers it self every month on many magazines around the world!
If JM labs eliminate the US distributor,they can sell Mini Be for around 3.5K to 4K and still make a huge profit.
If they eliminate their ads,they can sell less than 2.5K.
There is no comparison between the Caravelle drivers and Mini Be drivers,not the performance and not the cost.
(I pick JM labs for example purpose only !)
Don't fool anyone with telling $27 low cost Seas Tweeter is better than Be tweeter !
I heard their top of the line Millenium Tweeters in many speakers and they cannot match with the Be,not even closed.
The cabinet,binding post, and X-over for Mini are also much more costly.
"Mont Blanc pen (parts are $4.50) sells for $100"
I'm OK with that even at $200. Look at their cost for bringing up their brand name ! Ads ! Elegant high-end Stores ! Etc.
|
I heard the Jmlabs Micro Bes for a good one hour demo at Sound by Singer. I was very impressed and set to buy them. After listening to the Caravelles I changed my tune. I preferred the Caravelles top to bottom. In fact, I listened to the Altos for a good while. Wasen't impressed for the $17k. Hey, whatever rocks your boat. I go with my ears; and they NEVER steer me wrong. Living in the NYC area, I've be able to listen to some serious speakers. The Caravelles are among the best I've heard. I know you picked the Jmlabs, just to make your point, but while we're on the subject?-they are, for my taste, great, but VERY overpriced speakers. Look, we can beat this to death. Bottom line? You never heard the Caravelles. I've heard them and all the speakers I mentioned. Look before you leap! Somehow, I think that after YOU listen, You won't want to pay the $5k+. Let's just wait and see. This is America. Starsound can charge anything they want. You can buy anything you want. Too costly? People won't buy them. There's capitalism/supply and demand in action. I would suppose, for most audiophools, regardless of the innards, the test comes down to listening to your tunes. If you got the dough you're going to buy these babies. Or at the least, put them on your top 5 list. peace, warren |
Warrenh...Agreed that this is America, and people can charge whatever other people are willing to pay. Just the same, the information about the modest guts of the Caravelles is of interest, if only to encourage the many people who can't afford them to get into the DIY speaker game. |
|
Pal, you will not hear the ports, ever. Period.
BTW I have compared the Caravelle's with other monitors, and full range speakers and its strengths are WAY beyond 'subjectively' better, imo. |
The drivers are good, and the key to this speaker is the not so modest cabinet. I guess we want to overlook the considerable expense in that.
The box has nearly 8 times the radiating surface of the largest driver even in a small speaker like the Caravelle. So its inertness is no small feat and a big advantage to clarity. Personally I laugh at most of the puck cone BS that goes on because this is where it matters, the speaker box, not a bad box on $900 stands and cones.
The speaker is what it is, I've heard and it is very good. I think anyone who hears it will think its very good. Unless they are just being contrary or since we're dealing with audiophiles, don't know what good sound is.
Just so we're clear where I stand, Would I buy it? No, but that is due to my preference which has no ramifications on anyone else.
Better than JM Labs ? well the JM labs is got its own sound and better is more a question of preference than performance also.
I'd like to see a real measurement of the Caravelle but it does sound flat to me, +/- 1.5 dB is quite an achievement for a passive loudspeaker and it deserves a chance if you're looking for a speaker that does many things very well.
Waiting for what a reviewer has to say is pointless when you have a 30 day trial. Either you have the $$$ or you don't to have the priviledge to really know how these speakers sound like. |
Scotty333: "Its strengths are WAY beyond 'subjectively' better......IMO!!!" hehehehehe |
I was going to pour a pair of Caravelles when they came to rip up my old driveway and form a new one..I figured before they put the gravel down they usually put down some steel reinforcement. I could make some dedicated Sistrum stands from that.These guys can even help me make the forms for my new speakers they are great at calculating complex shapes and certainly they can figure the rate of contraction as the pour drys..A few percent here and there certainly won't change the way the bass may sound..Tom |
How about that cabinet? What about the mold to cast that cabinet? How much to make that mold? A thousand? No. Ten thousand? No... More? Yes..How many pours can you expect out of one mold before you have to replace the mold? When do they pour the quart of Micro-Bearing Conductor into the mix that makes up the back panel? How many man hours to prep the cabinet before it goes to the automotive paint booth.? How many coats of paint and clear coat? Whats that cost? You gotta be damn careful in moving that black beauty around. That crossover.. those select matched parts..the Sonoran hook-up wire with Micro-Bearing, The Riehl copper solder thats lead free, the Sistrum mounting method of the crossover to the inside of the cabinet..no dampening there.Want to be consistent in ridding all the nasty vibrations away to those crazy looking conductive stands.The brass conductive rod that is threaded into the back of the woofer and tensioned thru and terminated into the back plate of the cabinet..Gee another conductor.No dampening..Have to be consistent..Dampening the inside of the cabinet, hardly not ..no foam, no fiberglass, nothing dangerous to exit that port ..all natural..carded wool..How much are those sheep? No steel mounting screws..Why is that? Why are these speakers boltled to those crazy stands? How come when you tap on those stands they ring? I thought speaker stands were to be dead and filled with sand or lead shot..Seems as if these stands were meant to be conductive..Of what? Vibration of course..Whats left to be heard? Music . I sell these speakers and really enjoy telling their story..Tom |
"I sell these speakers and really enjoy telling their story."
Then tell the story using the proper terminology:
Dampening: n : the act of making something slightly wet.
Damping: Physics. To decrease the amplitude of (an oscillating system). |
Right now the "HYPE" meter is running very HIGH on the Caravelles and the DK Integrated Amplifer! Add in an Audio Aero Prima CD Player and use AudioQuest DBS Cables and you will have the ULTIMATE IN HIGH FIDELITY PERIOD! End of Story! Class A Hype System!
Sorry Could Not Resist! Found it humorous! I am sure the Caravelles are great speakers! 94 Posts and Going strong, they better be!
Chris
Chris |
Touche' Speakerdude! I have a pet peeve about these things too. Another favorite (not) of mine.
"These speakers have great base respones"....
Don't you HATE that one?
Oz |
And I can't even spell response.....too much budweiser tonight....
Oz |
"natural..carded wool" is certainly a plus. But, are the sheep organically raised, and bred by natural insemination? |
"I sell these speakers and really enjoy telling their story"
No wonder.... |
