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pinwa I also have that Elekit pre that was given to me because the owner of it that didn’t realize it was a fairly complex kit, and way above his pay grade to make up, so he gave it to me for fixing his Pass Labs power amp. I made it up with even better coupling caps and a better tube compliment, I had to beef up the heater current circuit though, for the beefier tubes I used, and yes for a tube pre it is very very good, and very silent, but as you found also, direct was better. Maybe on bad recordings the Elekit would be more forgiving, but that’s not what I want, "to lower the best, so the worst is a little more acceptable but still bad". Cheers George |
arafiq Yes, understand i said design is key. Not all GAN amps are are equal. The AGD design is excellent which equals excellent SQ. Hope you understand now. Don't let one particular member muddy the water for you, he's continuing to bury himself. |
@rh67: Class D can dazzle in the beginning but as your experiencing the typical class D faults start to raise their ugly head even with GAN. Design is key there is no way around it just because it it uses GAN does not mean great sound. I'm a little confused. Are you not the same person who owns the Audion amps which I believe are class D/GaN? I thought you really liked them and preferred them over some big $$$ amps you've owned or heard in the past. |
rocray, I generally run my DAC straight into the amplifier. I do have the Schiit Freya, Elkit TU-8500DX, and DIY Wayne's BA2018 preamps that I have tried with the GaN 400 etc. but generally I find I like the sound straight from the DAC better. I mostly use the SMSL SU-9 but I also have the Denefrips Ares II and I find it very difficult to hear a difference between them although the Ares II does sound a touch better but the convenience of the SU-9 really tops any sonic difference. The Elekit TU-8500DX does give the GaN 400 wonderfully liquid vocals but I seem to lose that holographic soundstage when I use a preamp. |
rocray, The First Watt F5 definitely has more "meat on the bones" than the GaN 400. But if you start doing an A/B comparison with other First Watt amps I think you will conclude that the F5 isn't a particularly nuanced or accurate amp. I felt it had a very specific sound that was a lot of fun to listen to but ultimately I replaced it with the Aleph J. I think First Watt amps in general have very good soundstages and imaging but the GaN 400 truly excels there. Comparing it to the M2x, I often felt like the sound was being unveiled. It is the most appealing part of the GaN 400. If you have heard the F6 I would say the GaN 400 sounds most like the F6 with a kind of purity and clarity that is fairly unique. But it does come at the cost of that fat, liquid, rounded sound that good tube amps give you. So far I have yet to find the perfect amp but then I'm not willing to spend 5 figures on an amp either so it may well be out there. And remember, a lot of this is personal preference. If you want that bass slam that the F5 offers then that would be a better fit for you. |
rixthetrick Not saying your wrong but myself having once been in the industry as a manufacture i'm looking at it from a manufactures point of view. Nothing more. |
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pinwa, Thanks so much for your comments. I am very impressed with the soundstage of the F5,and even more so with the J2. To hear that the Peachtree GaN 400 has a deeper soundstage compared to the M2 is very impressive. I have never heard the M2, but the two FW amps I have posses stellar (IMHO) separation,pinpoint imaging, and soundstage. I think the J2 does this a little better than the F5,but I find the F5 to have a little better detail. After reading your comparison, would you say the FW has more”meat on the bones” than the GaN 400? I am really in love with the FW amps,however I always try to have an open mind. |
What most people don’t understand is that all products need modding....yes, everything I have ever seen....I can make sound better. When you buy a $70K corvette.....you might not blink an eye spending another $40K to get 1100+ horsepower and 8 second quarter miles. That is because everything in drag racing is known. NOTHING is known....he he...in high end audio. Every single thing you do makes a difference sonic wise and most things cannot be measured......so, everyone is afraid to mod.....they think "only the manufacturer knows enough about this product to improve it." Actually, the truth is the opposite. There are tons of people out there that can improve the amp or whatever. There is a guy on What’s Best who took his $25K Audio Research Anniversary preamp and did thousands and thousands of $ worth of mods to it. He says it is in another world.....compared to stock. Why did D’Agostino put big heavy brass binding posts on his $250,000 Relentless amps? Why would he run the signal through a hunk of brass rather than a low mass WBT copper connector? Why would he screw up the sound? Maybe he does not know better. Probably is the truth. So, put some WBT output connectors on a Relentless amp and you have a better sounding amp. Please send me your Relentless amps (575 lbs. each) so I can mod them......NOT!!!!! By the way, the Audion amps use low mass WBT copper output connectors.....yeah for them. Most people have never tweaked anything.....most don’t even take off the cover and look inside. The first thing I do when I get a new component is take off the cover and see what I can change to get better sound. I have been doing this since 1980. Most manufacturers have a set goal. A lot of them do not even believe in subjective tweaking. Several of the class D modules (GaN and otherwise) were designed purely for specs or specs plus what they consider "low distortion parts"....mostly gotten by inference. The Voyager and the Peachtree use the same modules and power supply. They will sound similar but not the same. The chassis and its resonance, the footers, the jacks, wiring, etc. all have a sound. |
@rh67 - However, I don't think it's going to stop people purchasing it if they think it's a good deal, and knowing that a well respected modifier as ricevs has proven to be, can make it even better for not an insulting extra fee. An example from back home was the sale of upgraded PrimaLuna DiaLogue Premium HP integrateds, it came with a neat Duelund capacitor upgrade that really gave it a substantial bump in performance. They were being sold new, with the upgrade done in house, some waited for warranty to expire, many just went for the upgrade. I suppose even I would prefer to have the upgrades performed by the manufacturer so that warranty issues would be avoided. But if you want the performance right away, and it's there to be had, many will not wait. |
A product would never come to market. There is a price segment for each component, a manufacture could have added another 1k by adding an extra this and that but now it’s no longer a 3k amp which was the attraction in the first place, this being done to a new to the market product is not what the manufacture wants to see, it’s different if you have an outdated product and wish too upgrade to current performance. Otherwise it shows that said product is ok but needs help which in this instance seems to be the case. |
If I were manufacturing these amps and saw posts about mods making the amps sound so much better I would really be upset. Most consumers will not view this as a positive but as a negative.If it is the case, where building is never a no cost objectivity, when making a profit is a consideration, perhaps it might be a driver in better future products? Which will cost more, which the modification also does. We're still in the early days of the developing GaN amplifiers, I doubt we've seen even close to the pinnacle of SQ in sound available in the near future?? But then, who knows. |
Class D can dazzle in the beginning but as your experiencing the typical class D faults start to raise their ugly head even with GAN. Design is key there is no way around it just because it it uses GAN does not mean great sound. Too many think GAN is a stairway to heaven it can be but only if your good at designing ones circuit, these off the shelf boards in my experience come up short. There is less than a handful of class D amps that can play with the big boys. Most buying these lesser class D amps are looking for a bargain and will convince themselves that they have found it and for them maybe they have. If i were manufacturing these amps and saw posts about mods making the amps sound so much better i would really be upset. Most consumers will not view this as a positive but as a negative. |
@rocray I have DIY FirstWatt F4, F5, F6, Aleph J and M2x. And I have the Peachtree GaN 400 and Mini GAN 5. I compared the GaN 400 directly against the First Watt M2x which had been my favorite of the First Watt amps. I preferred the GaN 400 for its deeper soundstage and greater sense of separation but as I have listened to it more I confess I am starting to be bothered by its somewhat thin, albeit very pure and transparent presentation. The F5 is a beast with a very distinctive sound signature. It isn't a particularly nuanced amp. It is a lot of fun to listen to but in many ways my least favorite of the First Watt amps. If you love the F5 my guess is the GaN 400 will sound very different and you might not like it. Certainly comparing those two amps will clearly contrast the strengths and weaknesses of each amp in a stark way. |
I ordered the Mini Gan yesterday. It checked these boxes for me. I am in need of an amp. I want to find out what this class D stuff is all about. The specs seem to be a good match for my gear and I love the small footprint. Ideally I will use this amp as a bridge in the rapidly evolving class D world. Hope I like this class D stuff. |
There is already someone who A/Bed the Peachtree with the GaN 5 and someone else A/Bed the AGD Audion's with the GaN 5. The difference between the amps was similar.....so I would say the Peachtree/Voyager would be closer to the AGD than the GaN 5. and no mods to any amps.....I will be modding the GaN 5 soon, as well. |
I find this thread fascinating. I am a big fan of class A amps. Especially paired with tube preamps. These new generation of amps appear to be opening new doors. I would love to do a direct comparison against my First Watt amps. Any insight to how the GaN amps in similar price range would stack up to a FW J2 or F5? This,at least for now is just hypothetical. |
The AGD amps are already into a second generation, at the same pricing I believe. I'm on the sideline as to jumping in to GaN amps. If I do it would be for an AGD, as I simply put more value into this manufacturer's resume. The proof is already in the pudding: the AGD offerings are first class. Of course, if Atma-Sphere, and others, do the same and properly design their product, then I'm open to consider them. Again, though, Alberto sure knows best with this new technology. I know I don't want to invest in a guy who just slaps in eval boards in a case and calls it a day. |
@pinwa The LSA Voyager has no home trial period and comes with a hefty restocking fee. The electronics inside the Voyager and the Peachtree are identical; only things different are the cases, the wire, and the connectors. My guess is that the Voyager/Peachtree would slot in between the Class D Audio and the AGD, but closer to the Class D GaN 5. Orchard has an interesting stereo unit coming but it isn't out yet. |
I thought these eval boards were not optimized for audio? At least the first generation one.@art_boston They are meant to be for audio, but also to allow a designer to evaluate the GaNFET capabilities. One of the ways they show that off is the board is supplied without heatsinks- it can run full power into 8 ohms without damage. This is also why the power supply that comes with that kit is current limited (so the amp is limited to 114 watts/channel into 4 ohms) so as to not overheat the output devices- which they would do if putting out 400 watts (the devices can handle that power if heatsinked). Overall the product ticks the boxes set out by GaN Systems but if you are looking for a high end audio class D amp you're better off looking elsewhere. Not that this board is bad by any means, just that other products not meant for evaluation are better for audio. |
I thought these eval boards were not optimized for audio? At least the first generation one. In any case, I doubt these boards possess the design magic and proprietary GaN's that AGD has. I consider the AGD amps the current standard for GaN amps. Until one can build a pair of amps for, say, $3K with the same performance as the AGD Audion, I see no reason to consider them. |
jjss49 Here’s something interesting, your MiniGaN 5 has the "EAS eGaNAMP2016 Gallium Nitride Class-D Amplifier Module" in it. https://ibb.co/2n5wTKK And now they’re bringing the newer "EAS eGaNAMP 2.1 Reference GaN modules" out https://ibb.co/P6WmMZS And there’s the original one I showed GaN by GaN with power-supply dac, pre etc etc. https://ibb.co/9gmXdcS Things are really heating up for a congested GaN amplifier choice, great thing is most are going to be well below $1k Cheers George |
jjss49 Very good review of the Class-D Audio USA amps. If know how to mount these into a box that's basically it, these "should" for $940 be much better as they are GaN made by Gan!!! And they have in them a dac, preamp, volume, and dsp with "Audio Curtain" laptop adjustable audio parameters) https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/GaN-Systems/GS-EVB-AUD-BUNDLE1-GS?qs=%2Fha2pyFaduh5O8IrjWWQf9kM... they just sold out 36 weeks lead time https://www.richardsonrfpd.com/Products/Product/GS-EVB-AUD-BUND they still have 5 https://www.mouser.com/pdfDocs/GS-EVB-AUD-xxx1-GS_Technical-Manual_Rev-200526.pdf Cheers George |
@jjss49 Very nice review of the Mini GAN 5 and it matches my experience of the amp. It is an amazing value at $750. I have the Nuprime IDA-8 and I would be shocked if you found it competitive with the Mini GAN 5. I also have the Peachtree GaN 400 which I like very much. You might want to give it or the Voyager GaN 350 a try, I think both companies offer a 30 day return policy. I love pretty much everything about the GaN 400 except it also lacks that juicy fat midrange which is especially noticeable on male vocals. On the other hand the amount of separation and amazing purity, clarity, and tonal accuracy are huge positives. It would be very interesting to see how you felt it compared to the AGDs. |
jjss49 I share your thoughts about the AGD's, you can have your cake and eat it too. |
reporting back on the mini gan 5 top-line -- for 750 bucks it is very very good... but not close (and with very different voicing) to the agd audions in overall performance, i would say perhaps 60-70% of the way there to the really superb agd’s i have not yet compared to the full bevy of ss and tube amps i have on hand, but so far i have let the mini 5 run in for 48 hours and listened to it for 3 days exclusively, enjoyed it a lot, then i made a swap, changing in the agd audions, then went back and forth a few times to confirm what i was hearing (reminder - source is chord hugo tt2 w m scaler in amp mode, straight into the amps’ xlr inputs, driving spendor sp100r2 speakers, i know 9 grand worth of dac front end, into 10 grand plus speakers, but this allows for a clear comparison/revelation of sonic deltas) - the spendors are not a difficult load but are very revealing throughout the range - i do not have ’torture test speakers’ needing gobs of current into low impedance at troubling phase angles... on purpose, i might add :) the mini 5 is a superbly clear amp, you can hear the speed, the openness, ultra low distortion, the excellent image it throws, wide and fairly deep, locates instruments quite well, nice timbral purity and excellent bass control - the treble is especially clean and impressive, it is clean without stridency - no typical class ab type of hardness, minimal grain here, very impressive in this regard - it is also very dynamic, the black background allow notes to hang in the air, and leading edges are exceptionally clean and expansion of loudness in music happens effortlessly the build quality is what i would call good, well conceived budget gear... solid case, not too resonant, decent feet, plugs and binding posts are what you would expect at this price level, solid choices made here... on/off button feels fine, is positive -- the only thing that feels notably ’cheapie’ is the plastic jumper plugs on the back that allow for choice of input gain (a nice feature!)... they kinda stick out some from the back panel and can be broken or hit if not careful now... swap in the agd’s... immediately you get a sense of a different voicing and ’a tier above’ kind of sound... the agds are clear, but also notably rich and ’full fat’ while the mini 5 is leaner -- more a tasty ’ice-milk’ than luscious haagen daz through the midrange and midbass... one hears the agd’s are ’luxurious’ where the mini is crisp, cheerful and clear with more prominent, forward (but very clean) lower treble ...thus a more ’solid state’ presentation from the mini 5 whereas the agd’s are quite tube-like (in the best possible way) from highs through mid bass - the agd’s have more of a sense of relaxedness/ease, effortlessness, richness to the music - both are built on a very solid tuneful powerful (when called for) bass foundation... in terms of imaging, the agd’s have a magic where the music is saturated in tone but the image is deep and location and specificity is also superb... once again, it is a ’no tradeoffs’ kind of sound - you get everything that tubes give (sweetness, density/body, holography, tonal truth) but with effortless speed, and inner light and deep powerful ’no excuses’, ’best of solid state’ quality of bass another way to describe the mini 5 is it is a fairly miraculous 750 dollar amp with a sound that would qualify as outstanding mid-to-upper middle tier solid state (think mccormack dna or belles class ab) type of sound, sibilance very well controlled, excellent spatial capabilities (more wide than deep), transparent nuanced, if a slightly lean midrange, and great bass whereas the agd’s are a true ’highest order’, you-can-have-everything-you-hoped-for kind of amp - what so many of us has sought and pursued, best of tubes and solid state, at the same time, nothing sacrificed (except 7500 bucks hahaha) what i will do now is compare the mini 5 to some others such as the nuprime ida-8, w4s st series ice power amp, belles sa-30 class a, arc 100.2 (old stalwart and fave)... |
To me nothing beats out Linear SS Pure Class-A to at least >50w then you have your "warmth" and "fleshiness" but also with hyper detail and sense, immediacy, slam, and startle factor.I’m a fan of Class-A amps’ sound as well — not so much the electric bill that comes with them tho. Similarly a fan of tubes but not a fan of their limitations on which speakers they’re comfortable driving or tube cost/maintenance. Maybe I’m just kidding myself, but I’m hopeful for the first time these new GaN and Purify amps can finally and effectively bridge the gap enough between both technologies and at a lower cost while being more Earth friendly. The fact that a guy like Ralph is finally building one and has so many positive things to say about the new tech’s potential is especially encouraging to me. Hey, I’ve got a wife, a mortgage, and two kids soon headed for college so gotta be able to dream about something. |
Alberto PURPOSEFULLY used 400kHz in the first version because he noticed no improvement in sq beyond that. His amps were considered awesome with that frequency. The newer tubes now use 800kHz, purportedly offering increased resolution across the frequency board.By the way, the use of these frequencies certainly disproves George’s position of go 1.5MHz or don’t go at all.As you increase the switching frequency you run into an issue with deadtime. I'm not going to go into what's actually going on here but I'll just say that the output filter plays an enormous role in the switching. So you may find that if you increase the switching frequency you may have more need for deadtime, not less! If you increase the filter frequency you get on a different part of its discharge curve and this will have a direct effect on the deadtime required. But the overarching issue is controlling noise and ringing as you increase the switching frequency! @georgehifi You might consider that because you heard one particular tube amplifier, that does not mean you've heard them all! I'm not a particular fan of SETs either, although I'm very aware of some of their strengths. I think their weaknesses outweigh their strengths and like you, I want more detail and impact than they seem capable. |
Been down that path with massive Amprex 805 SET monoblocks, and yes it was very novel for a couple of years, but music seem to loose itself of sense, immediacy, slam, and startle factor. To me nothing beats out Linear SS Pure Class-A to at least >50w then you have your "warmth" and "fleshiness" but also with hyper detail and sense, immediacy, slam, and startle factor. The rest can be A/B out to 200w. Like a Gryphon Antillion switched to 50w-A or even better 100w-A Class-A mode, (10w-A was a little bit artificial but good for non serious listening dinner music), mind you this is on Wilson Alexia’s Cheers George |
@soix short answer yes... it is crystal clear now... very nice... just trying to judge its various subtler characteristics in comparison to my references @rh67 i think we who have spent much time with tube amps, and in particular super sweet single ended low powered ones, have ears that to some degree have been conditioned to tube-borne 2nd order harmonic distortion, which gives a special sense of warmth, fleshiness and body to the music... super clean solid state, even the really top stuff that is not hampered by odd order harmonic and im distortion (heard as hardness, harshness and stridency) amplify the music with the ’sweetening’ even order distortions to varying degrees... so i understand what you are saying as you term ’the missing link’ -- to some degree when we get really top ss amps, we may need to relearn how to listen and appreciate well recorded music is presented with almost no distortion at all... |
Is it any wonder that the AGD products are superior to other GAN amps out there? Not if you consider the following: 1. Alberto worked for the inventor of the GAN. 2. He uses a PROPRIETARY audio GAN version. 3. His circuit layout AND pcb are specially designed with RF in mind. As for ther new power "tubes" rendering the old ones "outdated", seriously? Alberto PURPOSEFULLY used 400kHz in the first version because he noticed no improvement in sq beyond that. His amps were considered awesome with that frequency. The newer tubes now use 800kHz, purportedly offering increased resolution across the frequency board.By the way, the use of these frequencies certainly disproves George’s position of go 1.5MHz or don’t go at all. Of course that assumes one loves AGD’s sq! Do I think Bruno will match AGD’s performance? No. His knowledge and experience with the GAN simply cannot compete with Alberto’s. |
