Any truth to my feeling that MM carts are possibly better than MC on rock recordings?

The best cartridge for rock will also be the best cartridge for classical. It can be no other way. 

@mulveling , My experience pretty much mirrors yours. rauliruegas is right about phono stages. I think there are stages that sing with moving magnet cartridges but do not do so well with MC and vise versa. But, it takes a great moving coil to match the rock performance I get out of my old AR PH3 SE and the Clearaudio Charsima. I have yet to here a MC top that level of punch. No, the high end does not quite have the air of a good MC but the bass more than makes up for it. The Soundsmith Voice almost displays the same dynamic but sounds more like a MC cartridge. High output cartridges with top stylus/cantilever assemblies can do an amazing job considering the low price. The Goldring 1042 has got to be the best cartridge for the money made. I am about to order a Channel D Seta L Transimpedance phono stage in red powder coat. Galen Carol has ordered me an Atlas Lambda SL. God knows when it will show up. The combination has a reputation for being extremely dynamic and I am hoping this gets me past the Charisma for dynamics with all the magic the cartridge is known for. It is a sure bet for 20 large. There is no way in h-ll that this is going to be16 large better. Aren't there much more important things to spend that money on? Second thoughts?  The problem with ordering items that are not going to show up for 6 months is the 6 months you have to argue with yourself.

Not for me.

I had one of the best MM cartridges in an Ortofon 2M Black.  Sounded very good compared to other MM cartridges I had but compared to my LOMCs the black was left in the dust for all music but especially rock.  It lacked dynamics, sounded clear but anemic and was unrefined compared to my MCs which added more distortion to compressed rock recordings. 

The best MC i had for rock was the Audio Technica ART9 which had amazing bass, a huge sound stage and explosive dynamics.  

I think this is just a quirk of the Ortofon MC line. Some 12 years ago when I "upgraded" from Ortofon Kontrapunkt "c" (Cadenza Bronze) to Jubliee (Cadenza Black), I definitely did not feel as engaged in the music - and yes, rock music fell flat. Then I upgraded to Windfeld MC and it helped but did not mitigate all my issues - the lower Kontrapunkt "c" was a better all genre listen. That Jubilee uses a Shibata like your Quintet Black, btw. I definitely stayed away from the Cadenza Black (Shibata) because of my past experience here.

But that is NOT at all representative of MCs!! I now have many other MCs (Koetsu, Shelter, Benz) which all sound beautiful and satisfy completely with rock and heavy metal. I borrowed a VanDenHul Colibri XGW and that was great too. I even now have a higher-end Ortofon that I love too: the A90.

To be fair also, part of the problem back then was certainly in my phono stage. As you move up in the Ortofon MC line, the output level also tends to go down, and going from a heathy 0.4mV output to 0.26 can be trouble if your MC phono stage or SUT is not well suited to that. My old phono stage back then (Sonic Frontiers Phono 1) definitely lost punch and dynamics below 0.4mV.

no

I find that my Ortofon Cadenza Bronze MC plays rock quite well with good impact and dynamics. In addition it is wonderful with well recorded voices.  Come to think of it it is great with all genres of music.

zero truth to OP's question. If you like muddy bass from a cheap cart, it will sound better to you

I only have two MM cartridges. I'm not certain going MC would give me any sonic benefit unless I go quite a bit higher in price range than my MM's. I thought of trying a standard Denon 103 just to see what I hear.

There are trade-offs of course.  I have both MM and MC and go back and forth all the time.  If your really want to know the truth, though, both are easily eclipsed by MI.  Try to listen to either a SoundSmith or a Grado or if you can find one a NOS Bang & Olufson and the truth will be revealed.

I have six different carts that I can switch around and two arms to put them on. Half are MM and the others are MC. I would think, it all depends on your combo of arm, cart and sut set up. I'm running two MC cartridges right now and I'm not thinking of changing that in the near future. I do run a second smaller audio system with a more modest turntable arm combo, and I must admit, it sounds better with a MM cart. A MC on that system, sound a bit anemic. Not much presence. The MM has a much better base and warmth on that set up. That cart is  Audio-Technica AT95E   

Thanks for the great responses. I have some cartridges to look at. 

+1

No.

dunno

generalities as such are useless

I am in the initial stage of comparison of MM to my 1st new MC for various types of music.

I get instant comparisons from my single TT with 3 arms/cartridges to identical system via SUT with 3 inputs and Pass for MM.

shown in photo in my eBay listing of an LP I'm selling

https://www.ebay.com/itm/BAD-COMPANY-Vinyl-LP/133587830551

To properly proceed, I need to pinpoint volume differences, adjust volume precisely before switching, then listen to very familiar music.

What, if anything, does my MM Shure V15VxMR body with Jico SAS on boron do better than my new MC AT33PTG/II Microline on aluminum? Then, swap in the MM AT440ml I now use in my office, nearly new OEM Microline on aluminum, find the precise volume difference, now what?

I am buying new LP’s of worn LP favorites, and new LP’s of favorite CD’s, and new LP’s with superb engineering, some I learn about here.

So far, I am finding the MC to have everything and more than the MM, and find this particular MC’s superior separation and tighter channel balance giving more enjoyable imaging. That is also true between the two MM, the AT’s imaging just slightly better than the Shure’s, although I prefer the Shure’s brush feature in the main system to catch air borne dust just in time.

There’s also the MM Shure 97xe, elliptical on aluminum to compare, it might have some punch, or apparent punch, because of it’s different positioning in the grooves, who knows.

 I stand corrected- an 881! Thanks Chakster. 

Every cartridge designed for all genres of music, the rest is personal preferences.
As @zavato posted mastering engineers (disk cutting) are using MM because of their neutrality. I must admit that Doug Sax choice was the 881 stereohedron tip (not 681 elliptical ) from Stanton in the 80’s.
Regarding the lowest moving mass people should look for MI , but Technics made fairly low moving mass MM too. And not only Technics with its superlight Boron Pipe cantilever.

I would not consider a cartridge that favored one genre of music over another.  That being said, there are excellent examples of all types of cartridges.  I tend to prefer low output moving coils.  I believe that lower moving mass tends to sound best to me.

I love experimenting with different cartridges and have recently ventured into the MC with the Hana SL. The Nagaoka MP 500 is an absolute fantastic MM for all types of genres including rock/metal.

Doug Sax probably knows what’s he’s talking about.  I have so many cartridges, and I think $1100.00 is the most I’ve ever spent,  but the one that gets the most play time by far is an early 80’s Nagaoka MP11 Boron.  It does everything exceptionally well. At least to me, and that’s what’s counts.

N. 

FWIW, Doug Sax, a recording engineer of the first caliber, was a strong advocate of Stanton 681 EEE cartridges as the most faithful to master tape. 

@big_greg    Absolutely part of the fun. I'm enjoying the ride and trying to let my ears decide. Sometimes i don't agree with the majority it seems. I will continue to experiment but mainly I just want to listen. Thanks for the input.

Better is subjective.  So is thinking that one type of cartridge, speaker, amp, etc. is "better" for a particular genre of music.  There may be certain characteristics about a piece of gear that make it "better" for your particular listening tastes, so that is what's most important - finding the right gear to match your tastes (and your budget of course).  

I have a VPI Classic 2 with a Kiseki Blue NS MC cart on it, and it is the "best" to my ears out of all the 5 turntables I own and about a dozen cartridges.  It's dynamic, does soundstaging and imaging very well, has good channel separation, is quiet, doesn't get bright or sibilant, and is fairly neutral without any one region being over-emphasized.  

That doesn't stop me from liking other things that maybe aren't as "good". 

I've had my Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood MM cart mounted on my Technics SL 1200 MK2 recently and have been enjoying that immensely.  It's not as refined as the Kiseki, but it's "punchy" as you described and energetic and has a lot of the same qualities I like in the Kiseki Blue.  When I want to listen to something more "refined", I go to my Hana SL (MC), which sounds almost as good on the SL 1200 MK2 as the VPI/Kiseki combo.  

I'm currently using a Manley Chinook tubed phono stage with the SL1200 MK2 and a Pass Labs XP-15 solid state with the VPI.  Both are great, but also different.  The Pass is a little more refined and quiet, while the Chinook has a little more tube goodness and maybe a little more of that "punch".  I really can't decide which one I like better and they sound great with either table.

I have not switched the cartridges from one TT to the other. I feel that the PS Audio Stellar phono is a good phono stage to show either cartridge at close to it's best. I guess it would be a lucky break if that's the sound I'm drawn to considering the price differences of MM to MC.  @mulveling I might need a warmer presentation considering some of the harder rock recordings being a little hot sometimes.
@noromance Ortofon Red Vs. Ortofon Quintet Black should be a fair jump in quality without having to get too in depth in comparing I would think. The black isn't worse I'm just not sure it's better.
@millercarbon I like your thoughts on the subject. I can't say that hearing the common refrain that MC blow away MM hasn't got me thinking I'm wrong somehow. I would love to experiment some more though.

A little more punch is a good way to describe it. The magnet on the end of a MM cantilever is usually more massive than the coils on the end of a MC. They use this to generate a lot more voltage. Voltage is pressure and pressure is impact. So there you go. 

MC also have this problem of ringing that tends to exaggerate the top end making it sound tipped up. Since there is not a lot of power for punch in the top end, but we do get a sense of volume from it, this is another way of understanding what you're hearing. 

Fundamentally, MM starts out with a big advantage in higher output. This is a big advantage in that the signal is much less vulnerable to noise, and requires much less amplification. But MC has a big advantage in better tracking of fine detail due to its lower moving mass. Which one is better comes down to the quality level of each, the capabilities of your phono stage and, as you pointed out, personal preference.

MC cartridges have very diverse sounds across different brands (sometimes even within brands), so you can’t really make a blanket statement for that side, at least. Rock sounds best on my Koetsu (Coral, Blue Lace), for my tastes, I know I like it way way WAY better than Ortofon 2M Blue, Black (though I know not a fair comparison). I tend to gravitate to MC cartridges that are warmer and can rock well - Koetsu, Shelters, Benz, Ortofon Cadenza Bronze (NOT the higher end Ortofons!).

You said you have a Quintet Black, which uses their shibata on boron or sapphire. Funny, I didn’t like their Jubilee MC (shibata on boron, and predecessor to the Cadenza Black) for rock, or much of anything else force that matter - but especially on rock. Generally anytime I’ve heard an Ortofon with a more rigid boron/sapphire cantilever I’ve though it fell kind of flat with rock.

Also a tube MM stage plus SUT plus MC cartridge can have amazing warmth and punch; awesome for rock. Pair the right stuff together and you will be in rock Valhalla.

I use serious OLD MM carts. Shure V15 III on Russco TTs they were brand new carts from a FM radio station decommission. I was there.  6 Russco pieces.. 4 complete.. Heavy arms, Shure carts, every one..

I love um.. wonderful sound, YES ROCK ON!!! Carts.. The old MM carts and aluminum platters.. good combo..

The early Thoren 124s, strong MM carts would get SUCKED down to the magnetic platter.. Weird..BUT it happened..

Regards

Assuming you've only changed the cartridge on both tables on one system and then tried the same on the other system - without introducing other factors, then you have reached the correct conclusion. That is: All other things being equal, there is a specific difference between one cartridge over the other. Or is it? Could the MC amp in one be impacting the performance? Yes. So the best you can hope to say is that in your rigs, the MM sounds better on rock.