@bdp24, all that is true. Very few speakers make it to even 40 Hz gracefully. Most are already down 3-6 db by then and rolling off fast.
There are electronic instruments that play very low and as you mention the mighty pipe organs, what fun! To get the proper feeling I run 5 dB hot at 20 Hz. Something you could never due without subwoofers.
@paulgardner@ In a smaller room you can get away with smaller subs if they are properly designed. Check out Audio Kinesis 's system. |
No thing wrong with a bit hot ... artistic license ... could even improve an
effect ... also more subs has a similar effect similar to equalization and smoothing any size room. |
For a reference, the lowest note the standard 4-string bass (electric and acoustic) plays---the E string played "open"---is located at 41Hz. The fifth string on a 5-string (played open is a B note) makes a 31Hz wave. Some electronic keyboards play that low, and the mighty pipe organs with 32ft. pipes create a 16Hz wave. The resonant frequencies of large venues (such as cathedrals and concert halls) are also very, very low. You can hear the sound of those large spaces in well recorded Classical works if your speakers/subs play that low. |
@mijostyn
Damn. That must sound incredible. I can absolutely see how things can get sloppy in a hurry if you’re not careful. I’m in a condo so going to 4 subs is a little overkill in terms of both performance and aesthetics. I only have so much room for speakers and subs in my current living situation. Even with just two subs and playing around with placement I beloved I am able to achieve pretty good bass that you can feel without getting too sloppy (depending on the recording) unfortunately some recordings are mixed and mastered like trash so there’s not much that can be done in those situations. I’m a relatively new audiophile, well maybe that’s not true. I’ve always been an audiophile. But it’s only been a couple of years where I’ve really made an effort to understand and achieve “proper” stereo high fidelity. So much fun!!! |
I feel bass and clear one in my audio room... With tuba, cello, piano,organ, drums, gong, etc.... No need for a sub really and only 7 inches bass drivers, very well embed tough....I feel the bass with my stomach only not with my feet....I dont listen to music essentially constructed with a continuously artificial sub-bass presence for sure....
I dont have the bass linked to volcanic eruption, heavy metal, deafeaning thunderstorm at your feet, or banging door rent owner asking me for my money....
:)
« Ron Carter is in my room or perhaps only in my head » - Groucho Marx |
In my experience integrating sub woofers with side speakers can be challenging and very frustrating, to get the setup to sound right.
In my last house I had to struggle putting 10 bass traps around the room to make the bass sound like it "belonged" with the side speakers; I probably could have used more traps, but my wife was already complaining about the look of my "padded cell". |
Paul, I could not agree more but, there are classy ways to do it and quite sloppy ways to do it. You can have very accurate bass and adjust it so that the visceral component is there without interfering with the mid bass.
People like nonoise who have little if anything below 40 Hz don't miss the bass because they can interpret the note from it's harmonics. They have no idea they are missing the fundamental. At the concert you are hearing/feeling the fundamental. To get this in a residential setting is not easy. It requires large drivers, 12" minimum IMHO and that is if you are using at least two, ideally 4 subwoofers. Then there is power. A lot of it. 500 watts is the minimum. I use 2000 watts/subwoofer. The small sealed enclosure subwoofers favored today require EQ to get them to go flat to 18 Hz. If you look at my system page find the screen shot of the frequency response of my subwoofers (each trace is actually a pair of subwoofers right and left) This is before correction. These are 12" drivers in 3 cubic foot enclosures which are pretty big. They still lose output as they go down. The computer corrects this so that they are up 5 dB at 20 Hz. You can see this in the basic target curve. This quadruples the power requirement at any given volume. 200 watts becomes 800 watts. I kick the bass up 5 dB at 20 Hz tapering to 0 dB at 100 Hz because in a residential setting this gives you that sensation of being at a live concert without corrupting the mid bass. Then I have independent volume control over the subwoofers so I can crank it another 3 dB for the Red Hot Chili Peppers:) Without digital bass management it is very difficult if near impossible to integrate subwoofers at the state of the art. You can get reasonable close which is tough enough. Check out DEQX, The Anthem STR and the Trinnov Amethyst. |
Thanks for the thoughts and links! I will dig in.
@millercarbon Yeah I can absolutely see how 4 subs would be incredible when integrated well. I’m running 2 RELs at opposite end of my listening position. So one is located on the right behind the front right channel. The other is about 6 feet from the left of the listening position. So kiddicorner positioned. The gain is set lower on the one that’s closer to me and it’s great!
Another thing to complain about and factor in is the wild swing and inconsistencies in recordings. Some real trash out there. Sigh. |
It's your system, tune it the way you want. |
There’s a lot of reasons people rely on two speakers, the biggest being its relatively easy to understand and do. Plop two speakers down anywhere, make sure they are equidistant and pointed symmetrically and in your general direction, and they will image and sound great. Move them around a bit from there and you can get really quite good sound. From the midrange on up.
From the midrange on down is a different story. The lower you go the longer the waves and the more the waves cancel and reinforce creating great big areas where there’s way too much bass- or way too little.
The conventional wisdom, as espoused by the one here giving you so much grief and uncalled for insults, is to solve this with a combination of EQ and bass traps. He would have you first EQ too much bass into the room to fill up the nulls where its weak, and then to put tube traps into the room, to suck up the extra bass he just had you put there.
That’s the real reason so many people use just two speakers, they’ve heard nothing but the conventional wisdom. Anyone with 2 ears can hear the CW doesn’t work. But its too much work to try and understand what does.
Its called a Distributed Bass Array or DBA, a fancy term for using a lot (typically 4) of relatively small or low powered subs distributed asymmetrically around the room. Each sub makes its own set of lumpy bass modes. But with four they’re now all over the place. With four each one has to put out less bass, because they all add together. The result is much smoother more even, fast and articulate- and deeper. Much deeper! Also because you haven’t put too much bass in like you would with EQ, you don’t have to try and suck bass out with traps.
These guys know all this. They just haven’t tried it, and can’t get their minds around it. If you search around you will find all of us who can know just how great it is.
So that’s your reason. All this bad advice has led to a perception of "a" sub, or "the" sub (singular) that is absolutely correct- "a" sub ruins as much as it helps. Until and unless you get four in a DBA. Then by the physics described above all these problems are addressed. And oh by the way, the bass is so beautifully integrated you won’t believe it, the midrange is indeed clearer, and the sound stage expands creating a sense of envelopment that is simply wonderful. For sure a lot more audiophiles would think a lot more highly of subs, and low bass, if they could hear one of these.
And it also wouldn’t hurt for the old guard to loosen up and allow that there is indeed a better way. |
@paulgartner, I think you will enjoy my post on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/audiophile/comments/iwnza6/reviewers_im_tired_of_your_sissypants_music/?utm...It was a dumpster fire. LOL. We are in a minority though. Most audiophiles just don’t care about being able to play a wide range of music so they have far lower standards when it comes to the reproduction of percussion (well, at least on reddit). To your point, great bass is more realistic. It’s also extremely difficult to do well. It’s amazing how if you bring up “bass” the go too assumptions are that you only care about bass or that you only play bass heavy music or that you only want to play your music loud, blah blah blah. I mostly listen to Blue Note records, Jack Johnson, slow stuff...but I’ll still throw in some Pop, alt rock or club music upon occasion. I didn’t drop crazy money on a system for so-so “good enough” sound stage, 3-dimensionality, vocal presence, color, texture, bass or anything else. For me personally, bass is about speed, timing, punch and impact. Lower midrange/upper bass integration is key. Think more Bruce Lee and less NFL lineman. Subs just don’t do it for me. I’m more of a blues, jazz and rock fan so my speakers needs reflect the demands of that music. I’m not saying that’s right for everyone! That said, @downdog is spot on for my tastes. Zu Defs have the ability to make someone tap their toes because they push a lot of air 40hz - 250hz and the wideband driver means seamless mid integration. @nonoise is right, too. For rock and blues, 40hz done well will knock your socks off and JBL has been doing that right for a long time. (I’ve had some Accuton 6”......would love to hear their 8”) Depends on your genre and your tastes, but the right floorstander may surprise you. I’m running Focal Sopra no.3 with a 25 watt amp and the bass is crushing. CRUSHING. No need for a sub. Bass is superior to the triamplified, DSP controlled system (with room correction) I had before with 300w Krell amps and four x 8” scanspeak woofers per side (8 total). As the quality of bass improved, I no longer needed to play the woofers at a higher DB level than the satellites for it to sound right. The Sopra no. 3 are flat or close to it (depending upon room & placement). Anyway, sounds like you are on the right track and have a great system that’s a lot of fun. Let none of the “audiophiles” suffering from the usual musical myopia shame you. BASS onward my friend!!! |
Again, you answered your own question. You have a different set of values. You admit to having poorly integrated bass, something I could not live with. Of the different qualities in a speaker system, having _good_ bass is really hard. I would personally forego having rock concert bass if it would not be as good quality as the mid bass to treble. The issue of how to get good bass comes up so often I wrote a blog about it: https://speakermakersjourney.blogspot.com/2020/04/how-to-not-buy-subwoofer.html |
@erik_squires of course not. I appreciate and enjoy the fullest range that I’m capable of experiencing. I just don’t understand the 2 speaker system. I’ve heard plenty of them that sound nice but would argue could sound better with more bottom end. I also listen to a wide variety of music genres. |
I can completely see how a pair of subs would be a necessity with a pair of B&W standmounts. |
So your observation is that you only care about bass, and you could care less about how well it integrates with the rest of your system??
Then why are you surprised audiophiles want to listen to all kinds of music, really well, that may or may not include a heavy bass track, and that when it does, they want it to be accurate and loud, instead of merely loud?
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@dentdog damn right! I’m running two REL S510s and I can’t imagine ever going back to one sub let alone no subs! I’m running them with B&W 805d3 stand mounts. Sounds incredible. I’d really love to see what, or if I’d gain any significant midrange if I was to try the floorstanding 804d3. So much fun!!! |
IMO, for good bass you have to move enough air. I know, with good floor standers one can certainly hear the low bass notes. If that's it for you, great.
I have ZU Def 4s and they have really good bass. But the pair of REL 212s pushed it to great bass. Took about 3 months of moving them but now I guess you could call it big bass. Guess I'm needy. |
My JBL 4319s "only" go down to 40Hz and I get great bass. Not many instruments play lower than that anyway. Also, having a small/medium sized room makes up for any deep bass I may imagine is down there.
As for the "feel" one gets when those notes are struck, I get that feeling in the room up into the mids, depending on the instrument or type of music. I can definitely feel it in my body.
I just had someone over to listen to a pair of smallish monitors I had for sale and when I played some jazz with a great bass into, he asked if I were playing the JBLs. That bass was coming out of a 6" ceramic Accuton driver. He couldn't believe it. He bought the pair.
I never understood the need for "great" bass since when everything else is dialed in correctly, "really good" bass is all I ever needed.
All the best,
Nonoise |
I don’t think I was looking for an answer to a question, but rather making an observation I guess. |
You answer your own question in your third sentence. No reason to even bother with decent speakers for the mid and treble, just get subs if that's all you want to listen to.
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