Hello ! I would like to upgrade my turntable / tonearm / phono preamp
currently I am using Kuzma Stabi S / Stabi S VTA 12” tonearm / Gold Note PH10 phono amp.
Gryphon Antelion EVO + Pandora pre , Magico A5 speaker.
My music preference : 50% classical / 30% pop / 20% modern Jazz
I like my current cartridge: Etsuro Urushi Cobalt so I am going to keep it. I would like to upgrade my Turntable (possible Linn LP12 or Kuzma Ref2 or any suggestions ) with Kuzma 4 point tonearm (or recommendation in the $ range?). My biggest uncertain is phono amp : I’d like to have warmer sound (tube preferred ) with ideally 2 inputs (Manley Steelhead or EMT126 are recommended by my local dealer but not sure if they are worth the money ) . I know matching (cartridge / arm / phono stage) is more important in analog system so I’d like everyone’s comments / experience that matches my system. Musicality / warmth is what I’m after rather than microscopic details. Thanks in advance
This is not a criticism, just a observation of a trait that has been shared about your latest Phonostage acquisition. In Your Post it is stated,
" overall means it’s not overly coloured like some tube phonos but it has the density and 3-D holographic quality with excellent tonal balance and micro dynamics like some European phonos 2x the price "
I use Tube Designs that are towards the Lean Side in their presentation, I can add an increased Rich Tone through a use of a SUT. I use a Cart' that works with maintaining this attractive trait.
I can add a overbearingly Rich Tone by using a owned LOMC through the MM Input, it is certainly not to my taste, but is a achievable experience, with the Volume Maxxed Out .
I'm confident the SPU is able to make the inherent Rich Tone become quiet noticeable, is this the desired outcome, to add Richness to a Phon' that is selected for it not having a too Rich Trait in how it presents.
I would think a Cart' that enhances the trait that caught your attention might be a alternative way to think about marrying a Cart'>Phon.
@pindacthank you and it sounds very in consistent with what I heard from other audiophilies’ comment. DS “nothing wrong but nothing attractive” my personal but very limited experience is they are very detailed with exceptionally low noise floor.
Which makes me more eager to toy with a “high end” SPU than an optical cartridge for the moment.
If the DS Optical Generator is available, the buying into the DS Audio Cartridge Line is not too expensive.
I have listened to DS Audio Cartridges and SPU's in very different systems, I recollect the SPU on all systems it has been encountered, as a Rich Presenting Cart' and the perceived level is more than I am liking on the systems it has been heard used in.
I have only heard from my recollections a DS Audio 'Upper Range' Cart used on one system that I am quite familiar with, I have no recollections of detecting anything not to like about the Cart' in use. I do recollect follow up MC Cart's were more favourable and noticeably more of a attraction.
These Demo's are in non-owned systems and for were a short duration, any comments are from a recollection of a initial impression that has been made.
@karl_deschthanks , the StabiR + 4pt 11 is an upgrade to me, is worth every penny … now my itch goes to which cartridge I should try next 😂 : DS optical or SPU (I know they are very different)
@eddiechanghk sounds like you've made some excellent choices and had the benefit of listening to a lot of different gear. Hope you are loving your Stabi R. I will be receiving mine at the beginning of February. Excited to have two tonearms mounted on the same table. Still using my Vibraplane as well.
Lots of vintage arms are supposed to match nicely with SPU. Schick, Fidelity Research to name a couple.
may I know what you used underneath your TT and your speakers lol ?
just an update : for the last 2 months I was lucky enough to have several dealers let me audition different phonos in my premise : EMT128, Kondo M7(wSUT) , CS Port (a new Japanese brand), Brinkmann Edison mk2, ASR, and SoulNote E2. My final choice is SoulNote E2 , it’s a Japanese hi-end manufacturer probably not available in NA yet but in my system (plus many showroom auditions of different brands like Nagra, Manley, Allnic, ARC) this is the best overall ( overall means it’s not overly coloured like some tube phonos but it has the density and 3-D holographic quality with excellent tonal balance and micro dynamics like some European phonos 2x the price) plus it has a built in circuitry to accommodate optical cartridges (DS)
i highly recommend anyone looking for a phono in the $7-10k range, must give it an audition.
( I upgraded my TT to Kuzma Stabi R, w/ 4 point 11 arm) my next step is to opt for a second tonearm: possible Groovemaster III. Any expert here tried this arm vs SME ? Planning to put a SPU cartridge on , any suggestions ? Ortofon ?
thanks for any advise. Happy spinning.
I just installed the Seismion platform under my field coil speaker power supply. Huge difference! Once you hear what it does, you can't go back.
Keep in mind that this is under a solid state (not tube) power supply for the electromagnets in 4 drivers, so it's not even directly in the signal path. And, I already had the power supply sitting on a Taiko Daiza panzerholtz base.
I am Marcus, Co-Founder of Seismion. I have seen our active vibration isolators being mentioned here in this thread, so I would like to reply to some questions.
Yes, we are a new company from Hannover in Germany, we have developed in the past 4 years active vibration isolators, a similar category like Herzan, TableStable etc.
Recenty we started to sell our isolators also to audiophile customers, and thankfully we got very positive reviews (there is a thread in WBF)
Vibration isolation is an important factor for many kinds of HiFi equipment which are sensitive to mechanical disturbance (especially turntables, tube amplifiers, but actually a lot of other parts, even cables).
We have made a short video about the influence of vibration isolation for turntables:
A good measure to compare the performance of isolators is the resonance frequency, because isolation starts only above that frequency. Our active vibration isolators have a resonance of about 1 Hz, which is way lower than other types of isolators, like the mentioned pneumatic isolators (Vibraplane etc). These devices typically start isolation around 3 Hz or even higher.
There are actually a lot of vibration sources in the low frequency range 1-5 Hz, like foot fall sound, building vibrations, so active isolators have a clear advantage here. And of course, also the isolation itself is better at any given (low) frequency compared to the passive isolators. You can find a bit more details on this, and comparison of passive and active on our website:
Speaking about passive and active: I totally agree to the reply of @thekong: all pneumatic isolators should be in fact classified as passive, and 'active' here only refers to automatic levelling (which does not contribute to vibration isolation). Active isolators like our Seismion, Herzan etc. typically have a feedback loop consisting of sensors, a control, and actuators, which makes them a totally different class.
We are looking for a close discussion with the audiophile community, since we want to offer a product that is perfectly tailored to your needs. As written above, most other active isolation products are designed for industrial applications, and might not perfectly fit, both from the function and from the design.
By the way, we are now able to serve any orders with short notice :)
Pardon for my ignorance , does a SUT+ MM phono plays better than direct to a MC phono and what is the sonic improvement, generally can provide from a SUT ?
Really depends on the quality of the particular units - you cant generalise.
The Allnic H7000 actually has a SUT built in.
Be aware there are 2 versions of the H7000 phono -
1 version with SUT plus active MC step up ( this would give you the choice of SUT vs active
another version with 2 SUT MC inputs.
You need to check with the dealer which version he is recommending.
The Feickert is a very good turntable, but if you are going for a 4point then I would get the Kuzma R. The Feickert's are quite often paired with Kuzma arms and should work well if you are keen on the Feickert. Soundwise I still prefer Kuzma R.
Expect lots of different opinions on the superiority of the MM+SUT versus the dedicated MM/MC phono pre. My experience with both is that it depends on the system. When selecting a high quality SUT you must know the output and the internal resistance of your cart so they are well matched. On the other hand a properly designed phono pre can provide all the gain required for the best LOMC/MI cartridges without adding noise and avoids the need for additional cabling.
A friend of mine really values the use of the MM section on his vintage Marantz 7C preamp. He uses a SUT for his Lyra Atlas. Sounds great. The same SUT in my system, using the MM input on my PASS Labs XP-27 with an Lyra Etna wasnt as good as going straight into the MC settings.
Dear all : update : I went to auditioned Allnic H7000 , Kuzma Stabi R with 4point9 , and I went to another dealer who offered me Dr Feickert Firebird and with a Kondo Audio Note GE1 phono stages , was very impressed with the SQ
Due to a change of dealership they have a demo Firebird with a 50% off RRP which makes it similar (or cheaper) than Stabi R. Anyone did compare the two ?
About Phono Stages : one of the sales suggest me to use a SUT (Etsuro has one) to fit my cartridge and go with the Kondo GE1 (which is MM only) , but this will set me back with several thousand dollars more. The question is : does Kondo worth the extra over Allnic ( 50% classical , some vocals / jazz)
Pardon for my ignorance , does a SUT+ MM phono plays better than direct to a MC phono and what is the sonic improvement, generally can provide from a SUT ?
Hi @eddiechanghk, just want to clarify a couple of points regarding “active” and “passive”, which could be confusing for you. As I understand, the Vibraplane belongs to a class called pneumatic vibration isolators. In general, this kind of isolators is considered as “passive” devices. What is confusing is that within this class of “passive” isolators, there are passive and active models, as explained by @sksos. For the Vibraplane, the terms active and passive models only refers to the method of levelling (automatic vs manual).
The Herzan and it’s kind are considered as “active” vibration isolators. They physically generate a counter force to cancel out the vibration, hence the term “active” !
These vibration isolators were originally used in scientific laboratories, eg. under electronic microscopes etc. The “active” devices like the Herzan are considered more technologically advanced, and have better isolation specifications. They are also more expensive, as you have noticed.
I have a couple of floor standing pneumatic anti-vibration tables under my turntables and can attest to their benefits. However, I have not compared them to “active” platforms, like the Herzan, in my own system, so can’t say whether they can be even better.
As a user of the Vibraplane, I'll just add that it is very easy to adjust even when its loads are not centered. My belt driven turntable is very heavy compared to the motor pod which means most of the weight is to one side of the Vibraplane. I purchased an air compressor that I keep in a storage area below the stereo room and run an airline up to the Vibraplane. Easy!
I will add that I have heard subtle improvements with the addition of additional vibration absorbing material on top of the Vibraplane. Specifically, I am now using a Symposium platform. My system pictures should illustrate all this. I bet that even the entry level Stabi S would sound amazing (and much improved) on top of a Vibraplane.
There are basically 2 models a “Passive” model and an “Active” unit which requires a compressor that puts out 120 psi (not included). You can buy compressors usually in any voltage required for your area.
Both Vibraplane (passive & active) tables are sonically identical as they isolate any component placed on them down to 2.5 to 3 HZ. The active table again requires a compressor to supply a constant air supply to keep it floating and is self-leveling. The passive model uses a hand pump to "float" the component. The passive model, once set, should stay at its proper inflation for at least a week or so without needing adjustment, depending on the weight of the component placed on it. The table will hold up to 275 pounds and VP weighs in at 150 pounds. Shipped on a pallet it’s over 200 pounds. The entire 24" x 20" surface of the top plate is flat and unobstructed, allowing plenty of room for any turntable. The top plate is constructed of a half inch plate of "Vibradamped" steel, which is covered with a Formica top skin and formed by two layers of steel of varying thickness, bonded together with a damping adhesive to minimize any resonance. To provide additional mass, a 10" x 14" x 1-1/4" piece of steel is welded to the bottom which is concealed, along with the three pneumatic isolators, by a 2" x 1/8" thick decorative skirt attached vertically to the outer perimeter of the top plate. The top platform is isolated by three patented, pneumatic isolators using a special bladder sealed in an airtight piston housing, each connected to a supplementary air chamber that improves real-time damping of periodic and random vibrations in the vertical plane. Horizontal isolation is provided largely by a series of special, highly compliant elastomer discs separated by thin, hard spacers. This portion of the isolator is located under the vertical air piston and moves side to side as efficiently as the pneumatic portion responds vertically. The elastomer sandwich operates as a variation of the bearing slip-plate concept for horizontal motion.
A "baby" VP is also available that measures 19" x 16" and weighs 90 pounds. It can be bought as either an active or passive model.
As a side note one compressor can "float" as many as 12 VP's.
@sksos thats very good price ! The Seismion costs around $5000 and the size is 500 x 400mm, max load 80kg , this price , I was told, a 50% cheaper than comparable products from Herzan (Switzerland) or Accurion (Germany） , I have no knowledge about their difference. I do not aware the product has passive / active options. @sksos would you share your knowledge please ? Does VP offer 220v version ? It seems like a substantial difference in price if they are the same product. I am very tempted to pull the trigger and give it a try.
cheers
No never heard of them. What's their price point? The VP currently sells for $2995 for either the passive or active version (Compressor excluded) Although shipping is expensive and especially to HK where it would be almost 1/2 the price of the unit!
I did some research about isolation bench and here is a new manufacturer from Germany , seems to have some very positive reviews when compare to other similar products .. and at a fraction of the cost. Have you heard of ?
I recently decided between a 4 point and a 4 point 9. I am very happy with my choice. The VTA tower on the 4 point is well made but seldom used. In general, VTA is set it an forget it based on the specific cartridge you are using. You can still set VTA on the 9 it just isnt as nicely designed. The 11' arm on the 4 point has a higher mass and this may be advantageous. Others argue that the 9" is a better design with negligible differences in groove distortion. I can say definitively, that the 4 P 9 is the best performing arm I've ever used. Thom Mackris at Galibier design can help you with your choice and give you a fair price.
@lewm@sksosthanks for the explanation on the isolation platform !
I think I will decide on Stabi R , now the question is : does 4point 11 is worth the cost difference over 4 point 9” ?
@j-wall seems like Allnic fits my taste more than Steelhead (more bloom and warmth) since H3000 is discontinued (and very expensive for my budget), does anyone compared its successor H7000 vs H5500 ? How far sonically they differ ?
The Steelhead is compromised by its own very mediocre output coupling capacitors. And if you use it as a full function preamplifier, then the signal has to traverse two of those same mediocre capacitors. Upgrade the capacitors, then you've got something.
Any turntable that is not internally suspended (aka "isolated") can be isolated by placing it on an isolation device, at extra cost, of course. On the other hand, it is not wise to place a suspended turntable on an isolation device without understanding what you're doing in great detail. The two different suspensions may interact with each other, badly. Since devices like the Minus K or Vibraplane are generally superior to any built-in type of suspension commonly found in commercially available turntables (with the exception of the Dohmann Helix, which uses Minus K), I prefer external isolation devices.
@eddiechanghkso I thought about the Steelhead but I couldn't get over the look. A little bit too much going on for my taste and aesthetics are as important to sonics to me. I've heard the Steelhead is a good phono, but is a great phono was the rectifier is upgraded and then competes with the H-3000. Rectifier rolling in the Allnic is also a great upgrade potential but I'm on the cheaper end of RCA rectifier rolling but I'm happy. The Chinook I had was fun and helped me understand what tubes in a phono can provide. But the Allnic added even more realism and depth. For me it was like seeing a picture of fog vs walking through the fog and feeling the experience. The Allnic h-6500 added a little bit more vs the Chinook, but the H-3000 is the end all be all for me....unless a Ypsilon shows up used.
@eddiechanghk when you asked "I now use a IsoAcoustics DELOS solid oak platform , how do these platform differ from each other ?" I'm assuming you are asking vs a Vibraplane? Completetly different, the VP isolates down to 2.5 cycles in BOTH the vertical & horizonal planes. The VP was iniitally designed for electron microscopes.
@karl_deschcorrect you would gain nothing from the Stabi M vs R if using your Vibraplane. :-)
@sksosThanks for your insight. As a Vibraplane user and someone interested in mounting two tonearms (FR-64S for Koetsu and Kuzma 4 point 9 for everything else), it sounds like not much would be gained by going for a Stabi M over a Stabi R.
I purchased an Allnic H-3000 because of @whartand I couldn't be happier. I went from a Chinook to the Allnic H-6500 and while nice, wasn't everything I was looking for. With the H-3000 this could very well be my last Phono. My only complaint is the Allnic gear tends to tank very heavily in value so I bought used. Their gear is fantastic, but doesn't seem to hold value, especially outside of their phonos which is a bummer.
@eddiechanghk- I can't meaningfully comment without being there- you know, room, other components, how the room is set up (I'm claiming no guru status here). I've found that just changing a power supply tube can tilt the balance of a system. In my system (and with that qualification), the Allnic sounded better than the Steelhead (especially once you roll the rectifier) and for 4 Pt. experience, mine is limited to the 9" arm. I'm a big fan of Franc's; you can call him and talk to him. Allnic- how big a deal is it where you live? I had to fix a bad solder joint and tube socket after 7 or so years, but did it locally. Didn't cost much. The tubes are still available from Mr. Park, but they aren't rare audio tubes.
I don't know what ARC represents there- you should be able to hear both.
@whartthank you for sharing your experience, the Steelhead and Allnic are both on my finalists list. If I go for Kuzma R / 4point 11 with my Etsuro Cobalt which phono will you choose ? Does any of these 2 give a significant “difference” to my Gold Note. I know it’s a hard to guess question lol. Or rather, which will give me a more “tube” sound ?
@sksosthanks for the explanation : now rise me to another question : I now use a IsoAcoustics DELOS solid oak platform , how do these platform differ from each other ?
A customer just pointed this tread out to me. Yes I'm a Kuzma dealer so please judge these remarks knowing this. I owned the XL 2 motor (AC motor) table with a 4Point arm for many years sitting on a Vibraplane. (Yes I'm also the world-wide distributor of the VP). Over the last 9 months I have sold 5 Stabi R tables so I directly compared the R to the XL. Yes the bass was bigger and better on the XL but when listening to the R everything was more focused and had even better PACE. I contributed this to the DC motor of the R. I did contemplate upgrading the XL to the XL-DC but instead thought I'd either do the Stabi M or get myself the Stabi R. Talking with Scot Markwell he said why spend more $$$ for an M when I use a Vibraplane, the M and R are so similar other than the M having it's own isolation which I didn't require. (Yes agree Scot is a straight shooter). So I sold my XL and now use the R still with the 4Point arm. (Have a MSL cartridge on the 4Point) Shortly will get a 2nd wing for the R and maybe even try Kuzma's new SAFIR arm.
I’ll add my views only because I’ve owned several of the products being discussed here, although not the latest models:
Re Kuzma, I had the original Reference table (not the 2) with a Triplanar. It is a very nice table and easy to set up and self-isolates. I also still have a Kuzma XL (original 2 AC motor) and Airline arm, which I’ve owned since 2006-7. The difference between the two in sonics is significant, tilting in favor of the bigger, high mass table and linear arm (which is not under discussion here) but isolating the XL can be challenging unless you are on a concrete floor. Given that I’m in an old (restored, but still) wooden house, on the second floor, I had to use a Minus K (the big bench top one) which is more than adequate to deal w/ footfall issues.
Of course, there is no dust cover for the XL-it would be enormous in size. I use a "dead" record to cover the platter when not in use and routinely clean the HRS plinth and metal parts.
I had a Steelhead from new, many moons ago, and sold it on to someone here who appreciated it. Extremely well constructed, hugely flexible, I I did roll various high end NOS tubes (much easier and cheaper to get back then). Could never get the right sound through the MC input(s), used the MM input wide open 47k.
I eventually installed an Allnic H-3000 (now superseded). Once the Allnic broke in, it had more spatial information in the pinpoint placement of images not just front to back and laterally but in height. Very full dimensioned, though some would say "burnished"-- whatever weaknesses it has complement my SET/horn based system. The Steelhead always had a different character that reminded me that I was listening to hi-fi, though I added a line stage preamp, rather than running it directly into the amps. This may not be as much of an issue where one isn’t using extremely sensitive speakers- viz. 104db at 1 meter.
I also have here a Kuzma 4 Pt. 9" which I like very much-- I originally got it to install on the XL, along with the Airline, but given how the Minus K works, it was very very hard to achieve correct balance with two arm pods. It is now installed in my vintage system, on a restored Technics SP-10 (which I have also owned since 1973)
I also owned a lot of ARC electronics starting with a Dual 75a and SP 3-a-1 that I bought new in 1975 and that company was terrific, both in terms of support, parts and overall reliability. (I still have the Dual 75a, which will be 50 years old soon!). I did have several of their tube amps, as well as their SP-10 preamp, which was their high water mark for the "old" ARC tube gear.
My experience with the current products is limited- heard them in dealer showrooms and at shows over the years and they seemed to be a fairly cost-effective alternative to the "uber" electronics now in favor in the high end. I don’t particularly like the 6h30 tube, which I use in another piece of electronics because I found that the only one with the mojo was the old DR Reflektor, now almost unobtanium- the other two- the EH and the Sovtek, didn’t have the same sound quality in my particular circuit/system.
Good hunting. You are dealing with pretty reputable products that have proven track records in the market. You should try to listen to them, but knowing how difficult it is to audition turntables, that may be impossible. Franc is a good guy and his distributors are typically good (The guy here in the States, Scot Markwell, is a very knowledgeable and a straight shooter).
Honestly, @rsf507, that is what I am trying to figure out as I use a vibraplane/symposium platform under my current table. I imagine the motor and controller are more isolated and better controlled in the Stabi M and the overall mass of the table might favor the M. I'm not worried about the cover causing vibrations as I think that was addressed in the design of the M.
Unfortunately, the M is much more expensive than the R.
Don't like tables that have dedicated attached dust covers, they tend to vibrate and ring IMHO. I'd go with a Stabi R on some sort of vibration table like Minus K or Vibraplane, I believe it would sound superior to a Stabi M just sitting on a solid rack.
@karl_desch, The Stabi M is isolated and has a great dust cover. The R is not isolated and you would have to have a dust cover made for it. The M is for the serious music lover. The R is for someone who wants to mount a dozen arms to his turntable and marvel at the complexity. Frank Kuzma is a different sort of fellow. He want to please all comers so he makes one of everything even if he knows they won't work as well as his best work.
I have a Ref 2, with a 313 VTA. For those who don't know, the 313 is Franc's Gimbaled offering. I am playing it in to a Shindo VR pre/phono. I'm happily running a My Sonic Hyper in to a Dave Slagle copper wound step up. This is my understanding from speaking with my dealer, reading....I'm not going to claim all this to be bible, so don't print it and bound it in leather. The 313 plays to macro over micro detail, and has a pleasant big sound with great drive. The 4 point 11 would offer more micro detail, and would veer more toward neutral. The 4 point 9 may in fact be more neutral still. I think the above Stabi R vs Stabi Ref descriptions are on point. Are you on a suspended floor? If so, maybe the R and a tubed phono.
The Ref 2 and the 4 point are your best choice. The LP 12 is a tinker toy in comparison. My favorite Kuzma is the M.
Mechanical switches and pots are the death of electronics. The fewer the better. If you have to have tubes Audio Research is where you go. The Ref 3SE or the PH 9 are handsome well though out units.
@rdk777i live in Hong Kong lol which is 12 hours plane away from US …. Thanks for the offer I will take a rain check lol
@doverthanks for the suggestion. I think I will go for the 11” whichever TT I choose at the end. I am still very curious to Linn vs Kuzma , not about which is better but how differently they sound to suit my taste.
Both the 4point9 at 13g effective mass and4point11 at 18g effective mass will be fine for the Etsuro. Personally since you already have enjoyed the fantastic VTA on the Stogi S get the 4point11 if you can.
Going from the Stabi to either the R/4point or Reference 2/4point I think you will be pleasantly surprised at how much improvement you get over the existing set up.
I think the Reference 2 is better than the R for the reasons you have suggested - the Kuzma M is where the new DC motor hits its straps ( it has a bigger motor/bearing and platter than the R ).
If you need to squeeze the budget I would say go for the Ref 2/4point9.
You live in the Pacific Northwest? I will happily let you come over and listen to my Linn LP12 and see if you think that is true. I’ll happily listen to your Kuzma.
@eddiechanghk I would never buy a Linn turntable - it's outdated. It may have been a great table when it came out, but it's no match for a Kuzma. The 4P (11) tonearm is one of the better arms on the market - that by itself should make the Kuzma table/arm combo a better choice.
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