An EXPERIMENT for those who have never heard differences in cables

Interesting read from Nelson Pass

Pass LabsSPEAKER CABLES: Science or Snake Oil - Pass Labs
https://www.passlabs.com/technical_article/speaker-cables-science-or-snake-oil/

@buckhorn_cortez

I hear very, very little, if any, difference in cables.

You probably save yourself a lot not hearing much differences in cables. The differences are very small until the cable design veer far from the typical double helix design or the conductors is changed to pure solid core silver or other metallurgy. I would put my focus on equipment and room way before cables.   

The magnet wire looks like the stuff Spelz uses in his anticable? At least that was my immediate reaction when I saw the outer red dialectic. 

millercarbon5,609 posts08-12-2020 7:13pmThere's stuff you can put on the outside of those wires that will make the sound so much better its hard to believe.

 With litz its with each strand within the cable...
When wire strands are uncoated each strand of copper rubs against the others and is free to interact back and forth as the signal passes down the cable.  When each strand is coated?  There is none of that interaction and its as if its one larger cable (surface effect) that transfers the signal without the signal jumping from one strand effecting another.  It eliminates what I heard as a certain dulling, tizzy sound.  The audible effect is like fine focusing a camera lens.  With litz wire a certain clarity is preserved and is one step closer to what an actual instrument sounds like. 

I hate to jump into cable conversations, but suffice it to say that we’re big fans of litz for our interconnects (enamel insulation over each strand).

Apart from its sonics, another key advantage of litz (and magnet wire) is that ZERO break-in is required. This is true only if you don’t use plastic in the cable’s construction.
Break-in primarily affects the dielectric, which is why we like cotton sleeving (Teflon need not apply - for this, and other reasons).

Plain Jain as cotton might appear, it’s superior to the ubiquitous polyester braid we’re used to seeing (https://galibierdesign.com/cotton-vs-poly/). The effects of synthetic materials (nylon carpets) is the reason folks like cable lifters as well.

Tin plated copper is not litz, although you can think of it as a "poor man’s litz" in the sense that the plating (tin) doesn’t conduct as well as copper. It too, has its place.

Thom @ Galibier Design

Meanwhile, back to the topic of this thread.      Given that magnet wire is available with silver plating and polymer coatings; YES, Mapleshade’s speaker cables can be considered as made from such, though they may balk at the mention.      About Litz magnet wire construction: https://mwswire.com/specialty-wire/litz-wire/      Personally; I'd avoid the Nylon.

You haven't addressed a DAC affecting sound from a turntable.  Mechanical isolation is a completely separate issue.  Stable voltages have to do with the quality of the circuitry associated with the turntable preamp - and that's not a DAC - at least in my system.

Phono stage needs stable voltages for the small-signal to phono(line) level conversion. A turntable dictates the timing of the output waveform and needs mechanical isolation ...similar to a DAC needing ultra low noise to ensure the output clock is stable.

The only way some are going to hear a difference with speaker cables, is to remove them from your system, and bring them to a home where differences can be heard on that system.

All of the cable changes I’ve made were done at my house with my system, since auditioning a cable at a store with their equipment has zero relevance as the cables are not connected to my system. Other than an audio store I know no one with a system better than mine, so I cannot avail myself of someone else’s equipment.  In any case, the audible difference on someone else's system is a moot point since I don't listen to their system.

Not all systems have the transparency and careful set up to hear what should be obvious. I do not understand why this battle goes on.

That very well could be true. In my system, I’ve used a Denon POA1500 amplifier, a McIntosh 2105, and I now have a Balanced Audio VK6200. I’ve used a variety of pre-amps, and currently have a McIntosh MK123 AV/pre-amp.

Speakers have been Klipsch, JBL, Magneplanars, and currently are B&W 802 series.

So, my systems have been solid mid-fi, but maybe not to the level required to actually be able to present the difference in cables.

Everyone has their pet theory as to why cables, or in this case a DAC, makes a difference. Lots of theories with no concrete proof other than the empirical, "I can hear the difference." You’ll have to tell me how a DAC makes a difference when I’m using a turn table, all of the connections are analog, and no D/A stages are involved.

Here is the truth of the matter. Wires act like antennae. Length, construction, metallurgy all vary their efficiency as a TX or RX.  The change in sound heard when changing the wire has nothing to do with resistance or ability to move a coil in a magnetic field. It's all to do with the DAC.
If you have a separate DAC, all that matters for maximum transparency is to keep away RFI/EMI ... conducted or transmitted ...from the final D/A stage. Because it's here ...where the bits become volts, that you can't have any perturbation of the clocking or reference voltage. If you don't appreciate this, you are playing whack-a-mole with cables.

So, I run Audiowise (www.audiowise.ca) and sell a 90dB+ sleeve that covers any cable (power esp). When a cable is not an antenna, the DAC is less affected and sounds it best.

The only way some are going to hear a difference with speaker cables, is to remove them from your system, and bring them to a home where differences can be heard on that system. Not all systems have the transparency and careful set up to hear what should be obvious. I do not understand why this battle goes on.  It could be that some do not know the best way to set up their system... not knowing its potential and leaving it at that.  Or,  like with human eyesight differences,  some people can not hear certain things that others do... Who knows?   I do know this.  Change cables in my system and you will hear the difference. I have found so far the most neutral to live sound in speaker cables is using litz cabling, like WyWires uses. Before WyWires I used to make my own cables with a solder pot and litz I purchased from a supplier/manufacturer.  My interconnects are now also litz.  Its just a matter of taste.  I am a musician and prefer the realistic sound I hear with certain instruments that litz provides.  I can have my mind changed.  But I have yet to hear what will..

I'm convinced that many who say there is no difference between competent cables have never actually listened. They've simply come to that conclusion based on their faith.

Of those who have listened and found no difference, I think many have come to the conclusion based on "confirmation bias." Their faith is so powerful that they just can't imagine there's a sonic difference between cables.

 I'm convinced you've simply fabricated a straw man to support your unsubstantiated theories about other people.   I've worked with audio equipment for 55 years, including selling it.   I hear very, very little, if any, difference in cables.  However, I'm always hopeful I will.  Recently, I went through my entire system and replaced all of the RCA style interconnects with expensive balanced interconnects between components and the preamp, and from the preamp to the power amp.  Couldn't identify a change to the sound reproduction and/or sound quality.

I have a dedicated power circuit to the equipment with after market power cables to every piece of equipment and to the Furman IT 20i direct-symmetrical power center.

I've used Tara Labs, Kimber Cable, and Purist Audio speaker cables - couldn't hear any difference between any of them.

I make no conclusions about what other people may hear when they change cables.  I only know, that I've tried a variety of cables in my system over the years and only hear a difference if gross changes are made - of the type suggested in the original post - taking a 28 gage wire and comparing it to an expensive speaker cable.

Changing expensive cables, substituting power cables, etc. - I don't hear a difference.  However, I readily admit - I may not be able to perceive the subtleties claimed by others.

Has no one here ever heard of Mapleshade cables?

If you bundle that many individually insulated thin wires together, you're working with a litz design, there's a lot you can try with magnet wires. The most notable manufacturer that uses litz is Cardas, but their stranding is much finer and has to be terminated using a solder pot.

When I was winding pickup, I used 42awg. I bet about 50 strands of that braided together would do the trick. 

Had Anticables. Did not like them at all

@cleeds I certainly agree with your comment and will not spend an extra minute of my time debating with someone who has already made up his mind. Experiences and improvements await those who keep an open mind.
OTOH, I must mention that many cables out there do sound very much alike and we are unable to pick up on the minute differences, manufacturers use similar designs and materials quite often so don't expect to hear a drastic change with every cable swap.

scar972

The intent of the original post was to hopefully allow those that have never heard a difference to hear the difference in cables for the first time.

I'm convinced that many who say there is no difference between competent cables have never actually listened. They've simply come to that conclusion based on their faith.

Of those who have listened and found no difference, I think many have come to the conclusion based on "confirmation bias." Their faith is so powerful that they just can't imagine there's a sonic difference between cables.

@tobor007 The intent of the original post was to hopefully allow those that have never heard a difference to hear the difference in cables for the first time.
If you're looking for an opportunity to upgrade your sound, try the larger gauge magnet wire or the 16 conductor cable that I have, it will give you a different sound that you may prefer more than what you currently have.
They're both really good in a different way and worth trying.

Aren’t Anticables magnet wire?

"I never claimed that this works as good or better than expensive cables"

I was not trying to be sarcastic. Perhaps I'm a little lost on the intent of the post. It seemed like an opportunity upgrade sound at a lower price point. Or perhaps I did miss the point, and that it is only an experiment.

@djones I wasn't ready to let the cat out the bag but rodman99999 beat me to it. The larger 8-12 gauge magnet wire does have a sound of its own and sounds really good if it fits the listeners' preference.

I also have a leftover spool of 16 conductor braided cable, braided designs are used by many high-end cable companies, most notable is Kimber and Shunyata. Anyone who wants to experiment with these cables shoot me a PM.   

@tobor007 I never claimed that this works as good or better than expensive cables and that high-end cable sales will take a hit, this is an experiment for those who have never heard a difference in cables. As you can see by these posts, some do enjoy the sound and experimenting with magnet wires. 

I have not heard about this setup. So as cheap as this is, and if it works as good or better than expensive cable, do you think higher end cables may take a hit in sales? Or would those companies offer their own line of  magnet wires? And if they did offer low price, high quality magnet wires, what would it do to their very expensive/high profit wire? Perhaps this is a good good thing?

@djones-    Possibilities: https://mwswire.com/magnet-wire/

I can say honestly that in the 15 years I have been an audiophile and most of my life being a musician. I am convinced that cables, especially powers cables make a significant difference in the sound. As do speaker cables and interconnects. It’s not make
believe and fluff marketing. 
Consistent cable throughout a system (in my case Nordost Frey2) creates a much nicer tone and at least in my case has been the path to the great sound I have now.

This is always a source of conflict. Frankly I just don’t understand when people say they cannot hear the differences. Makes no sense to me. 
And it’s not about cost, my AudioQuest CV8 cable is much less expensive then the Nordost I have in may main system and I love the sound the CV8 line produces as well.

Happy listening everyone!

I guess I could try 12awg magnet wire which is the same as my speaker cable. But I see no reason to use 24 or 28 awg for a fair comparison. Of course I could try stranded magnet wire better known as Litz wire. Might be fun to give square magnet wire a shot. 

For those special individuals, ignorant of available magnet wire gauges: https://www.amazon.com/TEMCo-AWG-Copper-Magnet-Wire/dp/B071JC7LKK      btw: The air-core inductors in many of your crossovers, are already  passing current to your low freq drivers, in much smaller sizes and at greater lengths than the typical cable.

clearthinker .... please be careful, there are geniuses who will follow your advice. I remember in 2001 or 2002 at an electronic show in Vegas there was a group of people protesting the use of human plasma in plasma TVs

Yes indeedy robjerman.  The only way you'll get a difference is to use speaker wire that cannot handle the load.

Another useful experiment with thin wire is to enter it into your left ear and push gently until it exits your right ear.  Pull through and connect up the left end to your amp and the right to the speaker.  I think you'll hear a big difference.

Magnet wire! LOL! Not enough current capability to control voice coil movement plus high resistance! No wonder it sounds "different"! Accurate? NO!

The one I'm allowed to tell you about is TC. The other one is to die for.

It's hard to believe, for that matter.

Maybe, but if you know that different dielectrics have an effect on an alternating current's presentation.

You may be aware that a rising and falling electrical field also creates a magnetic field, and that field is outside the dielectric (insulator).
This is part of what accounts for a transformer, the magnetic field is mathematically connected to the rising and falling alternating current.
The other important use of technology is inductance from the secondary windings where depending on winding ratios voltage and amperage can be transferred without a conductive material.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vh_aCAHThTQ

@guy-incognito - Yeah... No.
It's another technology from another source, nothing to do with Tekton.

Unless you were being cheeky, and yeah I guess it was kinda funny. millercarbon is smitten, which is always fun, you know to discover something that knocks your socks off.

its hard to believe.

It's hard to believe, for that matter.

The "stuff" is only available with a pair of Moab speakers i believe.

DO share the "stuff" millercarbon....we're all ears!

Wait, you found a Radio Shack???  Where?  Mayberry?

There's stuff you can put on the outside of those wires that will make the sound so much better its hard to believe.

That's why cotton and VH Audio's "Airlok" covering are both interesting.

No doubt, here, there would be an audible difference.      Never, will I attempt to dissuade another from experimenting.      It’s always been my belief that the Dielectric Coefficient (and polarization) of any material, around a cable’s conductors, has much to do with it’s presentation.        That variable is mostly eliminated with magnet wire, unless it’s sitting on carpeting (imo).       Done correctly; magnet wire could potentially sound better, than what some are using.

Thank you for contributing @rodman99999 , agree...using an X-acto blade would also be helpful in removing the outer enamel.

Of course; changing whatever they’re using for magnet wire, will in no way tell how a good pair of speaker cables will perform, in one’s system.

This just gives people a chance to hear a difference, especially for those who have never heard a difference.

The coating’s usually referred to as, "enamel", which can be made of various materials.      ie: https://www.elantas.com/europe/products/wire-enamels.html      I’ve generally removed it with an X-acto blade and a light scraping action, toward the wire's end (on a flat surface), or- by heating with a soldering iron, lighter, etc (it’ll bubble up and wipe off).       Of course; changing whatever they’re using for magnet wire, will in no way tell how a good pair of speaker cables will perform, in one’s system.