Advice on Integrated Receiver

Thank you for that.   I did purchase the Lehmann Audio Black Box SE II so I’m hoping that’s sufficient if I bypass the phono on the Lux 

@bound4h if you can get there Luxman is an excellent pairing, IMHO. I didn't realize the Hegel had no phono input. Definitely a deal breaker for many.  

As stated I use 509x with an older MA silver, the equiv of the 200 today. I do have a sub but even before that my ears said no mas long before this amp ran out of juice. Here’s what I consider an EXCELLENT description of the sound I get, lifted from a review that is accurate to this day.

For argument and sake of reference point, if you were to put Boulder amplifiers (and we still had the 1100 series here for comparison) as straight-up natural at 12 o’clock – adding nor subtracting nothing, with no sense of added tonal saturation, our reference Pass XS Pre/XA 200.8 is probably at about 10:30. With going to the left a bit on the warm/saturated side. The Luxman 900 series was about 11:30, with our tube references the PrimaLuna EVO 400 and VAC i170 coming in at about 9:00 and 9:30. I’d put the recent Esoteric integrated about 12:30 – slightly to the cold side, and the last few Simaudio amplifiers we’ve reviewed about 1:00 – even more clinical. The L-509x, like it’s larger separates has that same touch of warmth/saturation, without being slow or non-resolving.

To me that 11:30 reference (slightly warm but still very accurate) is the goldilocks of sound.

@bound4h looking at it from another angle, you get a very nice phono stage with the Luxman amp that will be good enough until you are ready to upgrade. Something that isn’t included with the H390. If you can swing it, get the luxman although like I said earlier, the Luxman might just borderline for the B&Ws as far as power is concerned. It should sound great though, regardless. 

Take your time, sell/buy 1 step. At a time, to see if the sound changes. 
 

good rca  interconnects, won’t give a revalation, but there’s just something about tweaking my stereo once every two years or so , just for an excuse to not vacuum floor, or help with supper, or do dishes,

why you think it takes me 2 1/2 hrs to change my oil in my truck?

go slow at first, , definitely try a 200W rms amp with your speakers, no such thing as too much power' that’s so,e thing these whiny snobs belt out, because they  know they dumped thousands on a 6 watt hamster fart, which can’t even drive a bookshelf speaker without clipping at every crescendo and drum fill. 
 

my speakers are only rated for I think 250 peaks, so you just have to not get too loose wit the Bushmills, or the volume will go up and u will wake up to a fried tweeter or resistor in your crossover. I have 650W rms monoblocks going to my 250 iW  max rated towers. So effortless at every note , kick drum, acoustic guitar,, Gary Moore’s guitar , even vio-lence, abattoir, Angel witch, bitches sin, no strain what so ever, smooth sailing from now on.  
having that much headroom istkeeps everything stress free and sounding full and lush while you just sit back with a dram and enjoy your fav bands. 
 

btw, nice system you have, love the speakers. 
enjjoy the hunt. I always do

My speakers are Paradigm Signature S6’s. Again, I’m running a little bit different amp, the 590AX is Class A up to 30 watts.

The 509X you’re looking at is 120w/channel into 8 ohms. Here’s a review from a few years ago at Stereophile.

I haven’t heard it, but it was pretty well covered when it came out.

@builder3 what speakers do you run with the Luxman?

The Luxman should be stunning. I haven't heard the L-509X, but I own the L-590AX, which is everything I could have imagined, and more. I wouldn't ditch the speakers before you hear the new amp.

Tell me the Luxman L-509X is overkill and that I wouldn’t notice a difference. It’s a beauty, but surely there are diminishing returns. I found a H390 at $4,300 and a L-509X at $6,950. Both on USAudioMart.  

Keep in mind my endgame is ditching the MAs for 803s.

http://www.luxman.com/product/detail.php?id=26#spec

H390 should be good. Gives you streaming capabilities as well. Add a good phono stage and you’ll be all set. 

@audphile1 @mtbiker29 

ok, after much research I think I’m going to go with the Hegel H390.  I realize the power is much more than the MAs need it will serve well when I upgrade to the 803D2 or D3s.  Hopefully that conclusion is correct.  
 

I will post pics of room setup with dimensions, etc as I know that’s an easy fix.  

@bound4h what @audphile1 says above is spot on.  People suggest all the time that they just add power to their AVR and I cringe, because i've A/B tested mine and it's not really close.  

One more thing on the MA front.....when my dealer came over to final tweak my subwoofer settings, he said "I don't sell this brand but can't say anything bad about it" and further "I've seen people spend a lot more and get a lot less performance" than I was getting.  While I think part of that was a complement to a speaker that punches above its weight class, it was also a testament to a well sorted room.  So as others have asked would suggest you post a pic of that, as it's a $0 fix.  

Preamp is a critical part of the system. It must be transparent and on the level of your amp. Unless it’s a makeshift solution until you get a good preamp, I wouldn’t use the Cambridge in that capacity if you want to go the separates route.
 

But, with a budget of $5000 you’re better off with an integrated in my opinion. So I would sell Cambridge and the 💩 and get a good integrated with or without a built in phono stage.  Any of the integrated amps mentioned above, Parasound, Luxman, Hegel and Pass will take your system to a new level. The speakers you have should let you start enjoying the music.

Ok dumb question, but would I be fine just using the CA CAX81 as a preamp and output the signals to a dedicated amp like the Pass Labs XA25.  Or would leveraging the CA's preamp circuity somehow be a bottleneck.   

Before I just duplicated equipment (buying another integrated amp) I figured I'd ask the question.

If you’re dissatisfied with the sound of your speakers, the two most-important factors to consider are placement in your room (and where you’re listening from) and synergy with your amplifier.
 

While you don’t say specifically why the sound of your system is not right to you, I think you’re probably right that trying an amplifier with better synergy will improve things. You also don’t say if you need/want features and versatility, or just a line-level integrated amp.  When you’re shopping, look beyond the power rating of the amplifier and look at things like higher damping factor and/or (for class A or AB amps) ability to double power from 8 ohm to 4 ohm loads. Your speakers are rated 8 ohms, dipping as low as 4.  If you are looking at class D amplifiers, look for a recent design such as one of the higher-end NAD units. 
 

Hope this helps you a bit. Have fun!

Hint 6 yes, Anthem STR, maybe Pass Labs INT 60 or Luxman 507z or 509x would be my start points. I would imagine the Pass (and know the Luxman) can let you bypass the phono preamp as mentioned above. I’m also going to throw another vote for the Hegel H390....great value and tons of current. Enjoy the search!

EDIT:  just scanned the classifieds here.  There is a Hint 6, an STR and (new entrant) a Marantz PM KI Ruby all available.  Several of the Hegel H190's too.  The Ruby is a great value IMHO.

Post a pic of your room if you can. I’d bet there’s some placement work to be done.

@mtbiker29 Can you spell out those suggestions (brand, model)?  I’m a newb.  I’ve got the Parasound HINT 6 written down and have been looking at it.  Also want to do some research on the other suggestions.  Thanks!

@bound4h this is just one man's opinion but those speakers can take you farther in this hobby than your amp can.  And the reason I know is because although I had big intentions of upgrading my MA S6's I've not yet gotten around to it because they sound amazing.  I put the Luxman 509X (endgame piece for me, no doubt) in front of them as @audphile1 recommends along with better source and I've been thrilled.  Check my virtual system.  Note my room is well sorted also, so a pic of your setup might help us here too.  

If I were you and upgrading I'd look used Pass or Luxman out of the gate, Maybe Parasound or Anthem if really trying to stretch the dollar.  

Yeah the 💩 is holding you back. A better phono amp is a good starting point. Then continue assessing and continue on from there.

@avanti1960 I picked up the LA Black Cube SE.  Will let you know if this changes anything (I still plan on a speaker upgrade but this was a quick upgrade I could make).  After reading the tech specs of the Schiit Mani, it really is not a fully capable preamp especially for the Ania Pro cartridge.

@bound4h Check out the Belles Aria Signature integrated amp (not a ‘reciever’) Might get you close to your budget IIRC, the non Signature model certainly would.

The Aria is good but the Lehmann offers a better value. The power supply in the Lehmann is superior and I made good use of the bass rumble filters on it that tightened up the bass response by not wasting energy on sub sonic frequencies.

https://www.lehmannaudio.com/phono-stages/black-cube-se-ii.html 

@avanti1960 

@audphile1 

Any experience with the Rega Aria?  I have the P6 and an all-analog phone preamp made by the same company as my TT seems like a smart move?  The price is in line with the Lehmann.

@bound4h 

your speakers dip below 4 ohm and might be straining your amp at moderate volume levels- for example the impedance dips below 4 ohms in the bass frequencies between 100 to 200 Hz which means those frequencies take twice as much amplifier power to produce the same volume level.  

With a 5K budget I would recommend a better, more robust amplifier as well as a better more dynamic phono preamp than the Mani which is an underwhelming sounding unit.  

The Parasound Hint 6 is a very smooth, dynamic amplifier capable of very high sound quality and has enough grunt (240 watts at 4-ohms, your speaker's demanding frequencies).  

For the phono preamp you usually get more up beat, dynamic sound when you have a more robust power supply.  The Lehmann Audio Black Cube SEII is a very dynamic robust phono preamp that has a separate outboard linear power supply and is a giant killing value at it's price.  

A new robust amp and new dynamic phono preamp will give you a huge upgrade and be suitable for your speakers which are more than capable with the right supporting system. 

B&W 800 series will be very nice - D2 or D3.  
They sound engaging and will draw you in. 804 or 803 for that size room most likely is all you need. However, they like power and require careful matching when it comes to the upstream components. Can’t have anything upstream that’s on the brighter side and or that emphasizes the presence region. When I had the N803s I had them paired with Pass Labs X250.5 and Audio Research tube preamp.
I think you’re pretty much looking at an overhaul.

If you want to go the integrated route, Pass Int-250 (would be my first choice) or Hegel H390, Hegel H590 or the Luxman 509 (slightly underpowered for the B&Ws IMO).

As for the phono stage, I like Sutherland for sound and flexibility. Even the bottom of the line KC Vibe MkIi is excellent.

Just my $0.05 of course, you will get other suggestions so start compiling the info.

Ok guys, I want to first say THANK YOU for being so welcoming with your comments and suggestions. First time in the forums. There are a thousand opinions and some of them conflict, but the beauty of hifi audio is that audio is usually more subjective than objective and I appreciate your input so much. I’ve asked a couple questions on other hifi forums and you guys are by far the loudest and most thorough. Thank you!

Merry Christmas and Happy Birthday to me (bday is Dec 28th) and I’ve decided I’m going to do a serious upgrade on my speakers. Yes, I know if I go high on the speaker choice my amp may also need an upgrade and I’m ok with that.

Recap on my current setup:

Loudspeakers: Monitor Audio Silver 300s (90db sens) mfg recommended 80-200w

Subwoofer: I do have a subwoofer, REL t5i, but could disconnect if the new LS had enough low end and the power amp was only 2ch

Integrated Amp: Cambridge Audio CAX81 80watt/ch

Phono Preamp: Schiit Mani [insert schiit joke here]

Source: Rega Planar 6 (2021 ver). I am using an Ania Pro MC cartridge if that matters. No other source except occasional Bluetooth pandora

Room: 16’ x 24’ (x 9’ ceiling). Carpet

Music Type: Soft Rock, Classic Rock, Alternative. No Jazz, strong percussion etc

Sound preference: warm, separated vocals from mids

Preamp/Amp considerations: I have the CA CAX81 as mentioned and will consider a stronger power amplifier and just use the preamp outputs of the CAX81. Lots of choices here right? I am eyeing the MF A1008 for $1,000 used. Heard many say BUY IT and some say be careful it’s a 2007 used amp.  Someone said Krell vintage amp, what model?  Also Rotel.  Open to others.

Phono Preamp: I have the Schiit Mani phono preamp ($149) and it’s something I’ve heard some recommendations of upgrading and I’m fine replacing that. Give me suggestions.

Loudspeakers:  Here's where I want to start.  I heard the B&W Nautilus in a local listening room last year and was blown away. I realize these are ridiculous and I’m not expecting this exact sound. However, I am looking at the B&W 800 series and my budget is going to be $8,000-9,000. I’m open to buying used and notice ALOT on Audiogon but have no idea where to start. 801N, 802D, 804D3, etc?

Open to thoughts on moving forward and will post back when I upgrade. Thank you for everything thus far!

And btw I do not hate the schiit mani. I had it. Know exactly what it is and what it’s worth.

Ok solve two problems at once - your integrated and your Schiity phono stage:

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649883010-luxman-l-509x-integrated-amplifier/

Fair price for this should be around $5k - $5500 all in, tops. Given the few small nicks that live on the side of this integrated. Also comes with a phono stage that will send the Schiit to the garbage 🗑️ 

@bound4h 

yes that’s the one I mentioned a few posts up. Absolutely worth it! It was a 6k unit a few years ago. Lots of power and sounds great. Very smooth and dynamic. It’s been for sale for a while I can’t believe it’s not snatched up at that price. 

Agreed that the Mani, although a fine product in its price point, is a low performer in your system (I have one that's gathering dust). Consider upgrading to a better, more versatile phono stage? For example, any of the the Musical Surroundings Phonomena iterations, Simaudio Moon, or even Hagerman Trumpet

But first consider speaker placement in the room see Get Better Sound: https://www.getbettersound.com/

Before spending more money on equipment!

Marantz PM8006

Had one of these (PM8005) and found it a great value for the price. Good power and nice MM phono input. Connections are quality of higher priced IAs and two sub outputs available.

@bound4h: Firstly, more than probably any other component in an audio system, speakers are a very personal and subjective choice. They are the business end of any sound system. Different ears are going to like different sound signatures.

Secondly, as one very respected high-end audiophile shop salesperson told me: "More power is always better." I would qualify that at bit by suggesting that the power supply and dynamic headroom of a power plant are just as important, if not more so.

Thirdly, Monitor Audio Silver 300 is an 8 Ohm nominal load design with a 90dB sensitivity. That's very sensitive, relatively speaking.

Fourthly, I spent approximately 3 hours of serious seat-time in a scheduled and orchestrated critical listening session with those speakers, the Silver 500s and Focal Aria 926. I was very impressed with the 300 and just a tad more so with the 500. However, the power plant used for that listening session was a monster Delta Classe stack with a heck of a lot more power and much more robust power supply than your Cambridge Audio which, judging from the specs (haven't heard it), is no slouch at all for what it does.

Fifthly, that Rega P6 is a solid (albeit a low mass design) TT. What cart are you using with it? You may find upgrading that might make a significant difference and save you mucho dinero.

Lastly, judging from your core components, IMHO, I'd say you are at that familiar point of diminishing returns, with respect to system upgrades. Upgrading only your speakers will likely leave you wanting and/or needing a better power plant and updating only the power plant will likely leaving you wanting and/or needing more sophisticated speakers. If your present inclination is to upgrade only our speakers, I would suggest you spend some serious seat-time with highly efficient or sensitive ones (e.g.  Klipsch; Paradigm; Revel; PSB; etc.). Chances are good, I think, that if you aren't particularly impressed with the Monitor Audio sound signature, the other British designs will leave you even more underwhelmed. Only your ears can lead you in the right direction.

Enjoy the journey!

@bound4h I’d be in the camp that if you aren’t currently happy with your speakers changing the amplification isn’t likely to cause you to fall in love with them.  Amps will amplify no pun intended strengths or weaknesses of a speaker but it won’t change the overall sound signature of the speaker.  I’d be looking for new speakers prior to an amp.  I had a set of Focal Electra 1028BE’s highly regarded as great value, trickle down effect on tweeter / woofer technology in Focal’s more expensive offerings.  Some songs, music were breathtaking but overall the sound signature was too forward, bright.  Most of the music I wanted to listen to wasn’t as enjoyable as I wanted the experience to be.  I chased Amps, SS, Tube with the lean toward warmer sounding amps to tame the Focal’s.  In the end, got some sage advice and tried other speakers, focusing on speakers that had the sound signature I leaned toward.
 

If you go the route of a new integrated and same speakers - Coda CSiB if you can find one used will be under budget and it’s a beast - the pre and amp sections are fantastic - it drive just about any speaker.  Krell 300i is another fantastic unit but likely over budget even used.  The Music Fidelity Integrated’s usually get high marks for punching above their weight class.    
 

good luck! 

I’d like to say your speakers are fine but agreed with others regarding the sensitivity rating. If you can get “any” PBN Montana speakers you’ll be in love. I upgraded to them and had a nice Marantz 85 wpc running them fine. Once I jumped up to a Parasound amp/pre amp set up they opened up dramatically. They come up pre owned here and there…..

Underwood HiFi has the Musical Fidelity 6Si for $3k plus many other possibilities.

There’s a Musical Fidelity A1008 for sale that I’ve found for $1,000.   Assuming the condition is as stated (9/10), worth it?

See if you can find a used pure class A vintage krell amp. Those are 100wpc pure class A and will make just about any decent pair of bookshelves sing. 

Question. 
 

You are asking about an integrated receiver? Do you want a receiver, or an integrated amp?

bound4h

As above, consider a more Musical and powerful Amp.

Happy Listening!

you have fine speakers

the issue is your amplifier

we were a cambridge dealer 

you have a classic sonic mis match

the cambridge is a clean slightly dry sounding 

you need a better sounding amplifier

we would  often start with a cambridge amplifier

then show how a warner hybrid amplifier would create a more musical sound

Dave and troy

aAudio intellect NJ

Gotta love people commenting on things they know nothing about.

You can get crazy good used speakers for 4K as well. 

Musical Fidelity A1008 has been sitting for a while on AudioMart. It’s lowered to 1k and it needs to sell at that cost cause that is an absolute steal! Spend the other 4K on speakers and you will have a kick a.s system. Even the phone preamp and dac are descent on it although not totl. 

I think Polks are decent speakers. I would like them even more is AR didn't recommend them. I had one pair and it was fine, but nowhere near as much fun as others.

Get that Schiit out of your audio chain and replace it with a decent phono stage. 
I’d start there. That’ll be a bottleneck no matter what your amplifier or speakers are. 

My favorite reviewer is Doug Schneider at Soundstagenerwork.com.

I have had good experiences with Polk and parent company Sound United, but have not heard those speakers. 

@kota1 I wouldn't put any stock into AR's recommendations. He made some "amazing" choices in the past. His explanations goe as deep as "it changed me", "I kept returning to this one" and a lot of "substance" like that 

These just won product of the year by andrew robinson's youtube channel

Been awhile, but I remember reading the review in Stereophile of those speakers. I'm inclined to think it may be your amp. And not necessarily the power, but the amp itself.You know anyone else with another integrated you could try?

If you don't like them with 80WPC I don't see how more WPC will make them different enough to change their signature. You will likely be happier spending any $ on new speakers instead of a new amp. Keep the amp, change speakers.