Bigkidz, I respectfully suggest that you advertise your product by purchasing a listing.
Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD
Hi All.
Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
4,487 responses Add your response
Sure, I understand! Thank you for your valuable time, Matt! Please also don't forget trying the DSD64 setting from the corresponding button on the remote. Report on the high-res would be very nice. There are so many SACD's available. You can always check what is out there on SACD on this site: http://sa-cd.net/ You can also check: http://www.acousticsounds.com where you can find DSD downloads as well. This article here gives various links to high-res downloads too, including DSD: http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/the-abcs-of-dsd-downloads/?page=5 Best wishes, Alex Peychev APL Hi-Fi |
Alex - I was listening a lot that day and really concentrating. To be honest, I think I took on way to many variables. I plan, next week, on focusing on just swapping pc's, USB cables and alternating between Amarra and Audirvana using your DSD-S. It'l be fun and I just feel like I didn't give your cables (and Audirvana) enough energy. I was trying to get a general feel for the DSD-S voicing and qualities, not focusing on differences between cables or software. I'll post about it when I do it. |
Matt, Thank you for a great and detailed post with your initial impressions of the DSD-S! It is rather interesting to me that you didn't find much of a difference between Amarra and Audirvana Plus, as well as between yours and my power and USB cables. Especially with the cables that have 5 times price difference as a set, I thought yours will be a lot better. Though I am sure that the DSD-S will improve with more burn-in, it seems to me that your audio system achieves a certain synergy with DAC products built around Analog Devices converter chips. As all DAC devices, those have a specific sonic character. Thanks again and can't wait for round two. :-) Best wishes, Alex Peychev APL Hi-Fi |
Guido, I did. Forgot to mention it. When I started to detect some deficits in performance I swapped back to MY USB cable and alpha digital PC. I wanted to make sure it was not the PC or USB cable affecting my impressions. I ended up listening to my whole set twice, once with his USB/PC and again with mine. I honestly didn't notice huge differences. My AC is pretty clean to start with. And I'm not sure, honestly, how much a better USB cord makes. But my model of system consistency must be maintained to give accurate results. I even switched back and forth between Amarra and Audirvana without a huge perceivable difference. Audirvana is way more flexible in what files it plays. |
Hi Matt, fabulous report as usual! Would you mind giving a quick test of DSD-S in current break-in state using the identical USB wires and PC as you used for the other DACs.... So to isolate the properties of the box from those imparted by the cords. No, I have no conjecture on whether you will find its sound to be more/less/samely appealing. G. |
Oh. Alex's post reminded me. All of that was with the DSD128 setting. To be honest I forgot all about that setting. I'll listen when I can to DSD64 to see the differences. There is definitely a recognizable flavor to the PCM to DSD DAC's (DSD-S, Direct Stream, MA1) that I heard. A subtle but identifiable similarity. |
UPDATE: Initial impressions of the DSD-S As Alex requested: I used his power cord, his USB cable, plugged the DAC directly into the wall and uploaded Audirvana. The DSD-S had been running with source for a solid week straight (24/7) prior to today's listening. Maybe it's because I don't really have a comparison DAC (since my brand new ODSE is but an infant with nary an electron through its juvenile microchips), but I am having a hard time pinning down the DSD-S's true nature. As I previously said, it is well built and represents its cost and quality without any doubt. Alex confirmed that the DAC arrived to me, hand delivered, in its inner box only and that it is double boxed for shipping. He also said that he will work on adding more foam to the packaging just to give the look and sense of more secure packaging, even though what it comes with is tested and safe. I appreciated his open attitude. My biggest initial impression is that it's not yet fully burned in. It has about 468'ish hours on it. I'm thinking at least 700 to fully break in, maybe more. It reminds me of the Aeris. I sense greatness, but it doesn't seam to be there just yet. As such, I am calling everything I report right now as a solid first impression. After this, I'm going to hook it up to a DVD player and throw a cd on repeat and run spdif into the DSD-S for 30 days. That'l put a total of over 1150 hours on it. That will certainly be enough to stabilize the DSD-S rather thoroughly. That said, it is currently very very good. In certain ways, it has already bested the Aeris (imaging and soundstage) but it's sonic reality (for lack of any other descriptor) isn't as full as the Aeris was at this point in burn in. The Aeris gave me a better sense of scale at 500 hours. That brightness I mentioned is completely gone. Extended highs and Earth shattering lows abound; all of the DAC's at this top level do this well... Extension up and down is unrestricted. I found the midrange satisfying but not mesmerizing, yet. As I said, hints and suggestions of more to come. Like watching Mozart learn to play piano.... It's imaging is rather stunning, although I found that with certain very specific passages, there seamed to be a shift to the left of only certain instruments, while others stay central. It's really weird. The vocal will stay perfectly center stage, but the drum (which I know well and fully expect smack dab in between center and right speaker) is just a shade to the right of midline; while the matching left drum should be between center and left speaker is just a breath away from the left speaker. Very specifically located, just not in the spot I expected them to be. But center stays center. It happened twice. Other then that, imaging was dead accurate and everything was exactly where it belonged. The soundstage was quite wide and deep. A bit closer then the ODSE and further then the Aeris in seating position. But I think listening position is subjective and personal, and therefore not super important. The soundstage was also well defined. The DSD-D did a great job of positioning something really close to the speaker while not sounding like it's coming directly from that speaker. The word "control" kept popping up in my mind. I was more aware of certain secondary special affects and quiet accompanying instruments and there presence to define the overal performance with the DSD-S then with any of the other DAC's. Leading and trailing edges were very nicely defined and lasted just as long as they should. Again. Control. Same with the low frequencies - tight, well controlled, deep and musical; not loose or flabby. I mentioned this before, but the midrange left me wanted more. Maybe it was too controlled. But I felt like I I was on the verge of something bigger. We shall see. I can say, bluntly, that I spent a lot of time critically listening and less time LITM (Lost In The Music). It happened, but not like when I was listening to the ODSE (not my current juvenile one but the fully broken in demo unit Steve lent me). I think that midrange was holding me back... I would equate its performance to the Meitner MA1 without the brightness. Now to keel things in perspective, let's realize I am comparing some of the best DAC's ever made. My findings are SO subtle. The midrange of the DSD-S is not weak by any stretch; it's just not yet where I think it will be in another few hundred hours of cooking. The DSD-S is clearly a solid state DAC. The ODSE gives more of a sense of tubes hidden within its solid state circuits; it's got a tube soul. I don't know if that's really useful to anyone. I feel like this one was hard. And since it's clearly not fully burned in I don't want anyone to make a decision based on my statements here. Not until it gets way more hours. Alex has implied that his USB conversion tech is SOTA and trumps all else out there. It synced flawlessly and i think that imaging benefits dramatically from that XMOS chip. I don't know enough to say more then that. I don't really know how to audibly seperate the USB conversion from the DAC itself other then to just evaluate the parts as a whole system. If someone were to force me to make a list right now of all the DAC's I have heard I would probably say, fav to least fav (i'm gonna get SO much $#!+ for this!!!): ODSE Aeris DSD-S Lampy Big 6 Meitner MA-1 PS Audio Direct Stream PS Audio Perfect Wave 2 Considering the DSD-S is not fully broken in, that's a pretty good start! I did also listen to it direct to my amps. Sorry Alex, I just prefer my music run through my Criterion. Maybe it adds noise or warmth or whatever, but it's more musical and more engaging to me running through my limited edition uber Rowland Criterion pre-amp. Although I will happily give you the complement of it being the closest to not needing a pre-amp of all those I have tried. I will remove the ODSE from that list as my biggest gripe with running the ODSE direct was that the volume control does not go down to inaudible. I didn't like having to rely on adjusting the volume on the computer to around my listening level and then fine tune the volume with the control on the ODSE itself. I want a volume knob that's goes from zero to ten, not 7 to 8.5 . I'm sure I'll think of something else as soon as I hit Submit, but that's it for now. I will listen again in 2 weeks to see how things progress. And then 30 days from now will be the final eval between my current champion ODSE and the DSD-S. As Steve has said, he's working on an Off Ramp 6 that uses the XMOS USB tech that the DSD-S already uses, and an upgrade to integrate that tech into the ODSE. And as Alex said, the DSD-S can have many parts upgraded to take it to the next level. Here is my sincere impression... If you decided to go with either of these top tier DAC's, you would walk away with one of the best out there and enjoy your purchase for years to come. These guys BOTH seriously know what they are doing!!! As a buyer, and a very long time enthusiast, I learned something totally new during my current system built. I used to shy away for these small, "One man show" companies and gravitate towards the big guys. These "One man show" guys usually have 4-7 other people working for them and produce top level gear for fair prices that offer way more performance for the dollar then lost of the big name labels can. It's a simply a matter of overhead and production. For those of you who are on the fence, try a Merrill Audio, Empirical, APL, Lampizator, or the many other speaker and electronic manufacturers out there that can't afford an advertising/marketing camping. You jus tight be happy you did. |
Agear is being funny and ya work on the better half! Matt, as an FYI, I have owned a couple of Hydra units that are said not to limit current etc.... I can tell you that in my room, with two direct 20 amp lines, the Hydra limited the dynamics and openness of my amps and music. Go figure. I sold them. Hydra 2 and 4. Amps sounded better plugged into the 20 amp Porter Port outlet. Ok, I need my fix of reading more of your comparisons. I must have a hit! |
To Audiolabyrinth: Sorry, forgot to mention the option of using any digital transport you like via S/PDIF or AES/EBU digital connections, but I am really thinking high-res only. DSD to be exact. I don't remember when I listened to PCM last time, seems like never. :-) Of course, any PCM digital source used with the above mentioned inputs will be converted to DSD64 or double DSD128. You choose which one you like better by pressing a button on the remote in real time. :-) Best wishes, Alex Peychev APL Hi-Fi |
Hi Audiolabyrinth, You are welcome! There are two choices when it comes to the digital transport. 1. SDT-M reading SD memory cards. 2. CD/SACD player re-designed to a digital transport. Both send DSD audio data to the DSD-S DAC via a proprietary digital connection, and achieve a very similar sound quality. Of course, you can also dive in the computer audio based digital sources and use the asynchronous USB input of the DSD-S. :-) Best wishes, Alex Peychev APL Hi-Fi |
Matt, I suspect that you've made a good decision regarding the single heavy gauge dedicated line. As a point of info regarding the 2.8 amp measurement, though, I would by no means assume that an electrician's current meter necessarily (or even probably) has sufficient bandwidth (i.e., is fast enough) to capture the narrow high amplitude current spikes that are likely to be drawn by the amplifiers at times. Especially in the case of Class D (and also Class AB) amplifiers, whose current draw fluctuates widely with the dynamics of the music. On another note, let me add my second to the many expressions of appreciation that have been made for the time and effort you are putting into performing and writing up this effort, which is and will be of considerable benefit to many. Best regards, -- Al |
Regarding acoustic treatments: I consider the absorbing side panels the #1 priority. Put a mirror on the side walls if you have them and when you see the tweeters from the listening position this is where you put them. I recommend the absorbing panels with graphics from GIK acoustics: http://www.gikacoustics.com/product/gik-artpanel-acoustic-panels/ As for bass and imaging, I recommend the 1/4 round tube-traps in a height that matches your speakers. These not only tame bass, but by acting as inner scattering devices, they improve imaging significantly by scattering the inner back-wave from the speakers. You position them inside and just behind the speakers with the round surface facing inwards. http://www.acousticsciences.com/products/quarter-round-tube-trap Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Hi Matt, I am not surprised about Veritas small current draw... Their efficiency is probably above 90%... Just to be on the safe side, have you tested current draw with some tracks that have large scale orchestra transients? E.g. 4th movement in Mahler's 1st symphony... Or those dreadful cannon shots in the Tchaikowsky 1812 Ouverture... Very loud but short duration transients might draw more current than otherwise seemingly loud sostenutos. G. |
tboooe - Merrill dropped them off for a listen. I have no idea how much they are. But I agree that $695- would be very expensive. I will ask Merrill and get back to you. I can't see what they are behind that elusive fabric cover. I assume some combination of reflective and absorptive…. Probably made from Unobtainium, coated with acoustic fibers from extinct mouse fur and glued together with a mixture of Botox and platinum solder... |
UPDATE - OFF TOPIC Interestingly, I have the electricians here today running some dedicated lines for me. I have been advised to either run 2 separate 20 amp lines or one single 20 amp line. My amps can pull (according to the stats) 10 amps at peak output (which is very infrequent). My initial thought was to give the mono blocks a dedicated 20 amp circuit and the rest of the rack another dedicated 20 amp circuit. I'm also installing a whole house surge suppressor to remove that from the room's equation and to avoid limiting current at all costs. We went back and forth on whether to go with one or two circuits as each has their advantages: single circuit removes any ground loop issues whatsoever but can limit current if the amps demand more then 20 amps. Two circuits gives unlimited current, but adds potential grounding issues and makes things generally more complicated to avoid tiny noise issues. We finally decided that the best way to confirm amperage need was to run a meter with the ability to show peak amperage use over a period of time. We hooked the meter to the current circuit (a single 15 amp circuit) and I sat down to some tunes. I played the stereo as loud as I would ever play it and made sure to include some music with very dynamic passages… Final result was that I NEVER pulled more then a paltry 2.8 amps from the breaker. Even at high volumes and with some seriously dynamic passages. Merrill's Veritas amps must be VERY efficient!!!!! So I'm having them run a single 20 amp circuit with an insulated ground and all 10 gauge wire (including ground wire). Quad outlet to run the amps direct into the wall and then use my Shunyata Hydra Alpha for my rack. I'm also going to try running the amps through the Hydra since it is (according to Shunyata) not current limiting in any way (the filters run in parallel). If this were a dedicated listening room, I would have had them run the extra circuits to a dedicated sub-panel. But its a long-term temporary room. And to be blunt, I never felt that my current normal house 15 amp circuit was holding me back. But as an anal, obsessive compulsive audiophile I NEEDED to get a dedicated line to get that little extra performance!!! We are a sad breed…. Totally unrelated to my thread topic, but I thought it was very interesting. |
The DS was very good, but not close in my system compared to the other kits I was trying. As Bill_K noted, results will vary dramatically based on a million variables. Many find the DS to be their final stop on the way to DAC heaven; and I am happy for them. For me, it was just a pit stop. I am working today on the DSD-S. I am developing initial impressions and will report them when I have formulated some thoughts. I'm not close to done listening yet. |
I doubt you can do better and anything near its price than the PS Audio Direct Stream DAC. Mine is just burning in and it is, in a word, breathtaking. This from a listener who started on digital with the Magnavox CDB 650, first 16 bit player, back in 1986. Just one man's opinion, but there are few components I have found so impressive. Neal |
matt, you are doing a fine job!, this has been a wonderfull thread to me, a great learning exsperience as well, alot of the brands you have brought to the table were unheard of to me, I'm an ex musician, so do not take this the wrong way, This thread is cool!, Bravo and cheers to matt!, Thankyou for taking YOUR time out of your life to do this thread, you, by no means did not have to share this journey, I will never forget this thread! |
Still Point Apertures. I was lent them by Merrill. My room is shared with my wife so I can't do anything permanent or wall hanging. I can put the Apertures on wood stands and set them up when I'm listening. But I haven't had time to do it yet since I need to build the stands. I SO wish I had a dedicated room!!!! Tboooe - keep us all posted. I think room treatment is the missing like in many of our rooms, mine probably worst of all! Sigh. We do what we can in search of the elusive musical magic moments. |
Matt, off topic for sure but what acoustic panels are you borrowing? I just added some Vicoustic Cinema Round panels for my 1st reflection points and I am amazed at the improvement in bass, clarity, and soundstaging. Ive got some RealTraps Mondo Bass Traps coming next week as well. I am excited to hear the changes. |
Omg guys! What's going on???? When I say "my thread" it means one I started and constantly read. Am I missing something here? Did I piss someone off and not notice it? Everyone take a deep breath, and let's leave the High School immaturity to the kids in High School.... For those who are interested in audio equipment and music, please read on. |
Rsf507 - if your going to insult me, don't do it right on my thread.... Actually it's funny. I decided a while ago that what I want to accomplish is in my hands. I would have been done with my ODSE very happily. The DSD is in my room because Alex offered. But I'm glad he did. I had discussed DAC's with Ketcham when I started my thread. We spoke many times. The Allnic intrigued me back then but it wasn't available yet. At the level I am currently at, if I can't get a unit in my room to listen, I'm not going to consider it. I have my wonderful ODSE. And look forward to giving the DSD a good listen. If the Allnic or Romulus find their way into my room for a listen I'm happy to hear them, but I'm not desperate. My stereo is the best it's ever been. Speakers, pre-amp, amp, cables, power conditioning, rack, source (Mac mini) - all thrilled and not looking further. SO close to there with the DAC. More like trying to re-affirm my decision then anything else. My electrician is coming over today to run 2 dedicated 20 amp lines (one for amps, one for all else). And I was just lent some great acoustic panels to help clean up my rooms reflections a bit. Contrary to RSF's brilliant observation (because he knows me so well), I am actually crazy close to having my dream system complete. Most of you have truly helped me along; thank you. Yes, I still have a few DAC's in the running. But I'm at the level where any on my list would make me happy for a very long time. Report to come later today. |
APlhifi-usa, Hi Alex, thankyou for the post to me, this is exciting news, I got rid of pre-amps many, many years ago!, I run direct to amplifiers now with my digital, interesting technology about your volume control, I have seen over the last couple of years the digital sources running direct to amps, and pre-amps close the gap of performance because technology with volume controls have got alot better, I do not have a record collection, although I love the sound of analog, I do not have other sources, I will be building a second system for multiple sources at a latter time, I have cables for the second system now, currently, I am still building my main system, the digital I have now is quite engageing for what it is, it is temporary, this cd-player will go on second system, I love the sound of it, however, I want a world class digital componet to run direct to my amp to keep the signal intact and as pure as I can get, The ODSE and your APL DSD-S fits the bill for running direct, that is my sole purpose of keeping up with this thread, so Alex, what transport do you recommend for your DSD-S dac?, thankyou. |
