Wisnon, I listened for a long time to the Goldmunds and found them very good. But I would never buy them as they leave me cold. They are easy to use, attractive, and have great frequency extension. But they are only good music; one never gets involved with them or feels the emotion of the music or taps ones toes. They are flat out boring. I do often read while listening and love it when the music grabs me and forces me to put down my book. They are perfectly suited for streaming elevator music.
Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD
Hi All.
Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
4,489 responses Add your response
08-22-15: Jh901 Me too Josh. This whole thread started in the name of digital, and we all know the lengths that Steve Nugent, Lucas and others go to make it sound palatable. The idea that you can equal or better that with a Swiss version of Bang & Olufsen on steroids is magical thinking and an example of the advertising hyperbole that Lucas was alluding to from his Munich blog. This magical Logos system has not floored people at shows. Why not? Here is some Audiofederation feedback (he can be fairly blunt): Hi SMajor, Matt, any updates? You have been a little quiet.... |
Goldmund ProLogos Plus Wireless Ok, so let's say that Matt has a digital transport such as Antipodes and doesn't utilized Goldmund's room correction device. Which digital output is used for the dongle(s)? Once the digital signal is received (by L/R speakers), then what happens prior to pre/power amplification? Specifically, how is PCM and DSD handled? What does the DSP do? Are the pre/power amps, which are mounted in the speaker cabinet, well designed compared to others at the $20,000 price point? Are the drivers well designed compared to other speakers at roughly the $30,000 price point? I'm really hoping Matt will be able to home demo. I'm extremely skeptical. Seventy grand will buy quite an impressive traditional component system. I'd fully expect a system at that price to absolutely wipe the floor with mine (Cary electronics/Focal speakers- less than half price). -Josh |
Jh901, Essentially correct. The Goldmund speakers are all in one systems and can be driven just by a computerr with the transmitting dongle. The speakers have Telos amps, Dacs and wireless receivers built in and are already DSP matched between amps and speakers and uses active digital crossovers for perfect synergy. Speakers are completely designed via computers based on an Advanced modelling software called Proteus that is constantly being upgraded. Goldmund uses no human intervention is speaker design, its all computer modelled to exacting standards and they can predict the outcome perfectly. You can also step up with a Goldmund digital Preamp, now called a "hub" and this can have DRC corrections built in and also works wired or wireless to the speakers. Apparently, wireless sounds BETTER! Only wires needed are the electric plugs to power each speaker and that can be hidden in the flooring/under carpets, etc. Downside is that they are pricey, and the Metis Tower wireless costs $18K and have 5inch woofers. The 120db (SPL) Prologos is $70K! Others doing similar stuff are the Kii Audio, Kii 3 from Bruno Putzey of Mola-Mola/N-Core/Grimm fame.€10K a pair. DSP up the wazoo and claimed bass response of 18hz! You also have the Devialet Phantom (much lower end offering) the white and the silver for about $3-4.5K a pair. These are shaped like orbs. Not sure if the Linn Exakt speaker systems are fully equivalent to these. No doubt the future is here, and a pal of mine sold everything save his "first born" to finance a pair of Prologos wireless and says he is DONE after 45 years of search. Selling/sold his vinyl and R2R collection!!!! |
Hi Josh. A few companies are going in the direction of all in one solutions. Diavalet, Goldmund and Kyron come to mind. There are others that are just not coming to me right now. They must stand on their own feet in comparison to separate systems, and do with great success in many cases. To some, it's a step off of the upgrade train; no more cable obsessing, etc. To others, it's an inconceivable blasphemy. Listen, learn and decide. That's what I'm doing. You can't look at any part as an individual entity since it is designs as a whole system. I am heading tomorrow to hear the Dynaudio Consequence Ultimate and the Avalon Isis. I also have finalized an in home audition of the T&F Isis and potentially the PMC MB2 SE. I'll keep you posted on those as more info becomes available. |
This Goldmund situation is disturbing as I'm way out my element. Are any of you able to distill the function of these speakers? Maybe start with the device which transmits the left/right digital(?) output to the receiver on the speaker. Is this technology audiophile approved? So then there's a DAC in each speaker and, as I gather, a DSP crossover rather than hardware. Whew. Wow. This set-up would be a game changer. Aside from Goldmund, who else in the hi-end is pursuing it? -Josh |
Gear, I agree. Not a fan of Goldmund spinner or TT tech, but I guess they were pushed to have a complete line for their very exclusive clientele and back then, a Spinner was mandatory and with less than 40 people in total, they had to outsource mechanical stuff like this and still keep the fancy pricing. To me they are a Speaker and Amp company (they even made a tube amp and its displayed in the lobby of their HQ). they are very competent in digital as well. Nowadays, their software is top notch as they cherry pick the best acoustical Phds and combine that with university an corporate collaborations and hence their leadership position in Wireless. However, like all small companies they will have their vulnarabilities and perhaps 4D sound in Home Cinema is such an area? Before I actually did a couple demos there, I thought they were all bling and little audiophile substance. Now I know better, they are ALL substance and the bling is only about their target market. Hopefully, one day Job will make their version of the Prologos wireless for real world prices. I am sure you will get 90% of the SQ for 20% of the price. By then, the Goldmund label will have new fancy cosmetic styling and Job will get the boxy look without the mechanical grounding stands. LoL |
I know Lampizator Lucasz is a big Goldmund fan: And last thing - one might say that I have a prejudice against Goldmund - but I don't. I simply cant stand the bullshit of their marketing. I think that everybody and every business has a right to bullshit people just a little, but goldmund is really pushing it to the edge. http://lampizator.eu/Munich/Munich%20High%20End.html Very funny stuff.... |
The new ProLogos Mk2 Wireless has redesigned software and is supposed to be a real stepup up from Mk1(now obsolete) but costs a cool $15K more. Indeed, they dont say Mk2, as its the only one now available. Yes, each box includes the same drivers found in the $600K Apologues and has 2 Telos amps built in and Alize Dacs with wireless receivers: The blurb... "The Goldmund ProLogos is the most dynamic speaker ever produced by Goldmund, with a stereo capability of more than 120dB / 1M, coming from a diminutive box of half a meter high." "The Goldmund ProLogos active version uses two Telos Amplifiers of a newest design in each speaker, with a very high power transformer. It provides the highest Acoustical Grounding ratio ever achieved in any Goldmund product, which guarantees extreme control of the drivers by the electronics at high playback level. The Goldmund ProLogos active version incorporates a complete correction of amplitude, phase and time with its new Leonardo2 DSP program. It is ultra-compact (500x288x392mm) and fully built in metal." Goldmund speakers are designed entirely in the software domain with the outstanding Proteus sotware, which is also capable of DRC without the use of microphones. Proteus can accept input of up to 44,000 parameters. The only thing to really cause a gulp, apart from the retail price is how these small Monitors can cause such thunderous/explosive high quality sound (SPL max of 120db). |
Seems the Trenner Friedl distributor is being upfront and honest. When I heard the TF Ra box it was uniquely different sounding from virtually every other speaker I heard at the show in similar rooms. If their ISIS shares a house sound it will be very lifelike, emotionally connecting and excel in presence. In comparison most speakers sound canned and somewhat sterile. The chosen ancillary equipment obviously matters. Charles, |
$70k for PL Mk2 are cheap if that includes speakers, amp and DAC; and allows me to sell most of my cables. The Tenors are more and are "just" speakers. My curiosity is piqued. I'll call Bob next week. I arranged to get down to hear the Dynaudio Consequence Ultimate again this Friday and then will go listen to the Avalon Time and Isis right after. I also got approval to "borrow" the T&F Isis if I cover freight. I will call the distributor and discuss voicing to confirm the speaker is for me since he felt that the speakers I like thus far have a very different sound then the Isis. I'll hopefully be a bit closer in my quest by Saturday. I'm waiting to hear back from PMC if there is someone local to listen to their SE speaker line with. Wow, what an experience! |
The PL Mk2 is $70K with mech grounding stands. They are NOT clinical according to my pal and the 6moons reviews...more on the Musical side. Based on my demo of the Anatta with the claimed PLogos sound signature backs up that claim. The Anattas are a big OUCH at $250K a pair. Remember, the Wireless all in ones wont sound the same as separates and my pal said that wireless also thrashed the wired setup with the same speaker. Wired as in Preamp to speakers as opposed to only just wifi. The point is not for Matt to buy them, but more to get a reference point for that kind of sound possibility. Plus he will have fun on that small adventure. |
Gear, these are the ones I would love for Matt to hear and report back on. Useful refernce point. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eU4sEIpj5M The Prologos Mk2 wireless, not the Prologos+ mk2. The "normal" prologos is their most dynamic speaker and is capable of max spl of 120db. It has 2 Telos amps and Alize Dacs built into each box, and Proteus/Leonardo (DSP/DRC)software implemented. |
PMC would be interesting. Here is an all Goldmund system in Japan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPpK-Hj7DPM |
Matt, I have to agree with Richfield on the upper register. I had a bit of that on my Treo's (only on a couple of recordings) when I first got them. that was with my old DAC set up. Since I got the OSDE/se I've felt that continuity was their strong point. I personally dislike the ARC digital gear. I don't feel it's in the same ballpark as what you have or the Bricasti, which you know I also feel strongly about. The thing about Johnny is that he does analog. That's what he is set up for IMHO. I've heard the 7's in a few other applications from others homes and I have a few friends who have them and they feel they're the best speaker they've heard and like you they auditioned so many 50=200k speakers it made MY head spin, lol. LOL...You have now made me want to go listen to a few other speakers on your list as I like to keep up on top gear like the rest of the guys in this thread. Thanks for sharing. |
I'm not sure if discontinuity is the correct term your looking for but the Vandy Sevens in my room have no such thing. Its exactly the opposite. There is such a seemless blend of bass with the lower midrange and of course that can be adjusted if there is not the blend you desire due to your room. The bass on the Sevens is one of their many strong points and have such incredible pitch definition that I think Matt is looking for. I think the veiled sound in the upper regester you mentioned is due to the ARC transport and the Berkeley DAC2. The Berkely in my system also was not quite as dynamic and didn't have the quality of midrange timbre or treble extension that my Bricasti M1 has. |
08-16-15: Mattnshilp That's the booze talking.... |
I must admit that although they get a tad boomy at times in my room and they don't extend as low or impactful as I want, the Nola Metro Gold I have on loan are wonderfully musical and engaging. I had a great midnight to 2am listening session with them last night. Probably so good because I couldn't play at my usual listening level. Needed to keep it down. It was wonderful. So many good speakers. Just hard to find one with everything. |
Lmao Agear. You may be right. But I won't go gently into that good night! As I proved when I started this thread, I have a pathologic need to hear as much as I can before feeling comfortable with a decision. Although DAC's can get expensive, they are easy to ship. Speakers, not so much...... I'd really like to hear a pair of Avalon Isis, BMC Arcadias, T&F Isis and re-hear the classicly redesigned Dynaudio Consequence Ultimate with solid state gear before making that final decision. And Wisnon will probably send me an envelope of Anthrax if I don't try to hear the Goldmunds (just a joke if the government is reading this, or if you just have a complete lack of any sense of humor). If I could sell my MM3's and Muzik's I'd have the money to bring in the Arcadia and maybe the T&F Isis. But speakers are much harder to resell then DAC's and way harder to ship. So I can't use my same model that I applied to my DAC search of: Buy/Try/Sell. I asked the T&F inporter again if I can do an in home audition if I'm willing to pay for freight. No answer yet. BMC said no way since they are almost 200 pounds each plus external crossovers. I understand that. As I said, I have a great deal for the Arcadia's on the table. I have to admit that I went to a generous owner of Salk SS8's in PA to hear them and they were very impressive. I have an opportunity to get into a fully upgraded pair of SS10's for a very good price. They are not up to the other speakers I am looking at, but if I decide I don't like the Dynaudio's when I go hear them, I might just buy the SS10's and keep looking; and wait until the Muzik and MM3 are sold and then sell the SS10's and go for my final speaker. It would buy me time to sell what I have and time to hear what I want to hear before spending the big dollars. Remember that with my Muziks now packed up for sale and the MM3's safely in crates in my garage I literally have no speakers for my room. I have many fine qualities, but patience is not one of them. I need my room up and running. |
08-15-15: Mattnshilp Every speaker with power woofers I have heard has that same subtle discontinuity. Time to bend over Matt and accept reality. The Tenors appear to be your speakers...... |
Matt, call me tomorrow if you are able to. I'm heading to Japan on Wed until the 31st. Glad it went well and that you had fun. That's what it's supposed to be like. Richfield can speak about the differences between the two Vandersteens. I listened to over 50 different speakers over the course of a year or more and once I heard the Vandersteens, I really started to focus on what I wanted. That was when I was able to say no to 99% of the stuff I heard. Glad that you have choices. |
Hi CT, sadly no. He's still burning it in. He used the AR as a transport and a Berkeley Alpha DAC, plus he adjusted the speakers. Richfield, thank you for making me aware that those are the mark 1 I heard. With the change in setup and adding in the Berkely DAC the speakers improved dramatically. This time I was engaged. I spent the 2+ hours listening to music and not the speakers. This audition pushed them up to the top 3 in my search. I think I still liked the Coltrane Tenors more, but it was very close. Unfortunately there is no conceivable way to A/B them. The Dynaudio Consequence Ultimate are also in the top 3 but I need to hear them with proper powered amplification before I can make a call on them. I found the Vandy 7 a tad veiled on the upper registers. It was subtle and didn't really effect my overall impression. They just didn't extend with the accuracy and finesse that the Coltrane Tenor did. Interestingly, it was the same on the low end. The Tenors maintained a better sense of control, impact, extension and finesse in the lower registers than the Vandy. I think the forward firing long excursion twin 8's with down firing port helped to keep the room further from the equation then the down firing, side vented Vandy's. I felt the rumble and heard all the notes, they were right and proper and had both accurate rise and decay but I didn't get that punch in the chest when expected like I did with the Tenors. I also felt that on rare occasions the base became disconnected from the rest of the music, like I could hear that it was being amplified by a different amplifier; the tone subtly shifted and it became identifiable that there was a subwoofer and monitor, and not just a speaker. Other then that, they did everything right. I can say without hesitation that John knows how to set up a room and he is a great guy who really loves this stuff, and loves music! After my recent audition I could easily say that I could live forever with either the Tenor or the Vandy 7/2 (I can only assume the Vandy 7/2 would correct at least some of my issues). Which is great because it gives me choices and flexibility to negotiate and see where the better deal lies. I will be going back to hear the Dynaudio CU next Friday with solid state. And I need to hear the Avalon Isis as well, but the store can't get me in until early September (sigh). Then there's the T&F Isis, the BMC Arcadia, The Goldmund Wisnon wants me to hear and a few others. Without jumping on a plane, hearing any of those (other then the Goldmund) just won't happen. And if I find several I love without needing to fly somewhere then I'm not going to spend the time and money to fly. Of course, if I hear something in the future that i like more I can always flip and upgrade. But with the performance I hear out of the Tenor, Vandy 7 and potentially Dynaudio CU and Avalon Isis I can't imagine I would get any better elsewhere. I'm going to call the T&F distributor and speak with him. I'm not driving 3.5 hours to hear the RA when I'm positive it won't give me the base extension I'm after (I emailed and spoke with Mr. Friedl and he agreed that the Isis would probably suit my needs better although the RA would sound great without that bottomless extension). And there is no place to hear the BMC Arcadia without flying to hear it (which is a shame because I negotiated a killer deal for a pair if I wanted them). And I'm also processing Wisnon's relentless suggestions as they come in. Lol. Man that guy knows about a lot of gear!!!! |
Both CAD and TotalDac are on my list of 'really want to hear'. There is a rumor that CAD will be relocating from England to Washington state. Cool. Also want to hear the Berkely reference (although it's still pointless because it doesn't have a usb input) and the Aesthetix Romulus Sig. Plus the new MSB V. Just need to narrow down speaker choice. |
08-14-15: Almarg Agreed Al. That is crazy, and I think Vincent goes into detail about the process he goes through in selection....kudos for his painstaking efforts.... |
08-14-15: Paul79No question about it. And I would add that I wouldn't be surprised if in addition he has to go through a process of screening the resistors further, selecting some and rejecting others. While 0.01% is an exceptionally tight tolerance for a resistor, it does not even come close to supporting 24 bit performance in a ladder configuration. Presumably TotalDAC's use of 6 ladders per channel in the Twelve helps considerably, but consider that 24 bits corresponds to 2^24 = 16,777,216 possible states, which in turn means that the least significant of the 24 bits controls 1/(16,777,216 - 1) = 0.000006%(!) of the full scale (maximum) output of the DAC. As I said in an earlier post in this thread, providing anything close to 24 bit performance via a ladder approach, as TotalDAC and MSB Technology apparently do, is an amazing (and invariably expensive) achievement. Regards, -- Al |
08-14-15: Paul79 Agreed Paul. I looked closely at Totaldac (along with CAD) before going with Lampizator. His stuff is labor intensive and expensive to make. Most dac makers use off the shelf parts made in China and still manage to charge an obscene amount. I use his USB cable which is great. Vincent is a MIT-level engineer and the real deal. I am glad you are grooving on his products. |
The Totaldac Twelve is not cheap to make, no matter where he is located... 600 .01% foil resistors, at $20 a piece retail, it is easy to see where the bulk of the costs are. Add to that SOTA Parts, inputs, outputs, power supplies, cases, boards.... It is a luxury item, no getting around that, and it is built to be. That is why he offers several more affordable DAC's that still beat out anything at their respective prices, IMO. |
Georgelofi- the Totaldac Server is not a DAC. There is a d1-Integral at around $10,000 (I think) which includes an entry level DAC. What I'd like to see from Totaldac is fewer confusing configurations and much more competitive pricing for the flagship set-up. How about simply a traditional digital transport (server; 2TB+ storage) and the 3-box d1-twelve at around $15,000. The "system-twelve", which includes NAS storage, is currently priced at over 30,000 Euro. Yikes. Maybe Vincent should move out of France if that is creating costs? Anyhow, I hope Totaldac doesn't end up becoming a luxury brand as there are more than enough already to satisfy the biggest spenders. Regards, Josh |
