I love the Codex. I heard it with my Noble IEM's and Nighhawk's. I didn't get to listen in balanced mode, but I know that's even better. The Codex is very very good. Better than many of the 5k DACs in this discussion, however it's not in the same league as the upper end DAC's we are discussing from Empirical and some others. I'm an Ayre guy too. I can't wait for them to release their new upper end DAC and or ref DAC soon. Those should be outstanding and will be in this discussion for the best DAC for redbook music
Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD
Hi All.
Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
4,489 responses Add your response
Can't confirm, but personally I just listen to how things sound and never worry about how it's recorded. I've heard both sound good and both sound like crap. IRT the Chord DAVE, that would be a deal breaker for me for sure. There are potentially some really nice DAC's coming to market at the 13k level. Empirical EMM Bricasti Aesthetix Chord I'm sure there are others. I also see some really promising devices under 2k now also. It's almost like there will be a big chasm between price points pretty soon. |
If anyone can please clarify: I understand that the Chord FPGA DACS internally convert DSD to PCM for playback. Is that correct or I have not heard the right thing? I am looking for a DAC that would "play DSD natively". My definition of native would be - if I purchased a audio file in DSD, then the DAC should not convert it to PCM for playback or other reasons. (I am not going into the argument that the music was originally recorded in PCM and then converted to DSD, they way it was sold to me.) Can someone please confirm? |
Despite the reports of its exceptional sound, there is one operational issue I have with DAVE is described on page ten of its manual: Dave has two menu options specifically tailored for PCM or DSD playback. You can play both PCM and DSD music using either mode, but each one is specifically optimised for a particular format. In order to cycle between each mode please highlight the segment and press both left and right navigation buttons simultaneously for one second. This is a significant limitation to me, since you can't effectively play a group of tracks that are a mix of PCM and DSD formats decoded optimally without decimation. If you only play PCM or DSD files in separate sessions or can live with a 20 second reboot when changing between PCM and DSD then this is not an issue. |
I Personally heard DAVE from CES 16. Any also an TT owner. I have to say they changed period. Chord DAVE is alot to offer and for it price i say it is really amaze for < 15K Dac-Pre-HeadAmp with all current standard. And DAVE is at the highest reference level on Chord lineup. and i say people should give a listen and see what they had to offer. And Yes, i would put DAVE against Esoteric and DCS level with the same price point. |
Thanks for sharing Jeff. It's amazing to me how much better the DAC's at all levels are getting. I'm starting to look at DAC's for my iPhone as I'm into portable a bit and I can tell you that even at the 500 on down level it's amazing at what is coming out. Based on the buzz with MQA, I really keep wondering how this will affect the high end DAC's that most of us discuss here on this thread. I know that Steve has chimed in a bit and I thank you for doing that. They say that the DAC will be the most important component for using MQA. It's funny as I liked the Berkley when I first heard it, but it didn't blow me out of the water. Same with the Trinity ref. I really liked the DCS Rossini and the full stack when I've heard it/them, but I also think that there are a few DACs that are close or even better depending on the system they are used in. The one take away from Jeff's post above is that he always says 'in my system to my ears'. This is so true. the reason this thread keeps on giving is because there are plenty of folks who are giving an honest assessment and not just trumpeting their own purchase/DAC. There are some in this thread who only champion what they own and most of use have figured that out already. I think that right now I'd love to hear Steve's new DAC the OSDX, Bricasti (heard it once with a full Tidal system and LOVED it), EMM's newest upgrade, Lampy, DCS and not yet released or spoken about, but the eventually to be released the Ayre 5 series I'm assuming or a ref series as Ayre does digital extremely well (LOVE the Codex...just LOVE IT). It's really becoming a fun time for digital as it does have a ton of advantages over other mediums, but the drawbacks are being dealt with with new designers and better availability of components. Thanks all for sharing . |
I had the opportunity to upgrade my Bricasti M1 to the new Special Edition version. This version is the is identical to the Limited Edition Gold version inside but has the original M1 exterior. You can read the particulars on the Bricasti website. The change involves stillpoints footer built into the feet, point to point wiring inside, more power supply changes and a few other items. Now the sound difference. I was small difference but am very pleased with what I'm hearing. First of all the dynamics are much more explosive and deeper more refined bass. I am noticing better decay and improved leading and trailing edge performance. Before the upgrade the M1 already outperformed the mighty Berkeley Reference in my system to my ears and now it wouldn't even be close. Brian and the Bricasti team are constantly looking for ways to improve the product and than they make the upgrades available at reasonable prices to all owners make this DAC one of the best on the market at any price. Jeff |
My Emm DA2 is delayed due to manufacturing delays. I'm dying to compare the Emm top dog to an ODSX! Right now im trying out some power cables to see what best suits my amps. I want to get my power cables settled and my conditioning under wraps as I feel that requires my primary attention right now. I still like the Shunyata gear very much and am inclined to stick with it at the price point I'm at. Once I sell the Plasmatron and my Vienna speakers I can pull those triggers and then finish trying out a few more servers before I make a final decision. By then, hopefully my Emm DAC will be in and I can give you all impressions.... thanks Ketcham and CT and all of you for the supportive words. This thread is so much fun and has taken on a life of its own. |
Agear - The ODSX will have option of having USB or Ethernet input. The current USB is M2Tech but I suggest waiting until the XMOS is figured out. Steve is creating a new device where Ethernet converts to I2S. This is different than his Offramp 6 that will soon be released as well that handles DSD throughput. The Ethernet to I2S can either be an external unit or an internal unit for the ODSX in place of the USB. Given my personal experience, I believe the internal Ethernet to I2S will beat Ethernet to high grade server to ODSX by USB. What is said here about the Plasmatron makes sense. My voltage varies from 116 to 126, sometimes more. It is necessary in my system when not running tube dacs. They seem to tolerate voltage changes better for some reason. I live in the same region as Steve Nugent and reason he has the same issues as I do. This is likely why we both find it favorable. So much so I gifted a 220V version to a friend in Korea. I also would not be so critical about Matt desire to sell his Plasmatron. Great, I highly suggest someone take him up on his offer. They do not come up the resale market. At least I have never seen one. Like Matt, as my system evolved over the years, I have many times purchased something and was not satisfied then sold it at a loss. In total I estimate 50% of cost of my system! This is why I appreciate everyone's endeavors here. It helps save money. Ironically, Matt approached me before the beginning of this thread to purchase my EMM dac2x but I talked him out of it. I was never satisfied with its sonic signature. Instead I told him about the Overdrive. 18 months later he acquires an EMM and loves it! My unit was a very early build and there were hardware improvements this last year. Maybe it is the unit or it is our perception. This highlights the importance of auditioning gear regardless of what people say. EMM audition was not an option back then. ...audition in your system is essential. (Of interests: I sold my EMM DAC2x for $7800 and was difficult because dealer(s) were selling newly built, sealed, from factory units for same or less!). Summer is a low sale season and dealers often are looking for a quick sale. EMM is a respectable company and grew up on their Museatex line. The EMM great dac but not to my taste. I found the ODSE to be much better and many others for the fraction of the price. My gear sold in mint condition cheap, the Plasmatron will be a deal for the next guy. I hope to hear Matt's system in person someday. Glad his endeavors have paid dividends. |
Thanks for the response Mattnshilp. I trusted you (and others) would find the questions reasonable. As a CPA, I can fully appreciate how a cash crunch and timing can often make decision making seem illogical. I was looking at it strictly from a SQ and long-term $$$ issue. Perhaps you can use the Cable Company for your power cord upgrade to try and find the right match without experiencing the same buy/sell issue you did with the Plasmatron. I would just caution that the Plasmatron is basically just a voltage sag prevention device (not even for amplifiers). It's not a power conditioner as the mfg. specifically states. Thus, if you experienced a benefit, it means that your house has voltage sag issues and/or the power supplies in your equipment deteriorate in performance without the help of this device. I'm not sure you can "offset" that benefit with any passive power cord on the market, but best of luck and please share if you do. The only thing I'm still confused about is your comment that you "don't buy and sell things". Were you being facetious because every sentence after that referred to currently buying buildings and selling speakers/watches/plasmatron? Either way...good luck. |
audioengr Steve, will that USB module ever be available for public consumption or will Ethernet be the new interface king? |
Yes Matt, it does suck, but for many of us, that's the way it is. I wish I could afford an even better system, but I can live vicariously though many of you guys and visit a lot of dealers whom I know and don't seem to mind me not purchasing with every trip. Those are good questions and ones that many of us were wondering about a bit I'm sure. Takes nothing away from my thoughts about your posts, but congrats on the office building. That's a great thing I'm sure. |
Matt. I don't think you owe anyone an explanation on the way you spend your money,especially on a public forum such as this. I for one want to thank you for all of the effort and time,and yes,money...that you already contributed to make this thread so rich in content. I can only dream of owning the equipment that you have bought and reviewed,but to bring along those of us interested in your audio journey is very much appreciated. Also,on your recommendation, I bought my Veritas amps (and loving them) because of your high praise of them on this thread. Thanks,and keep on...keeping on...Mark |
Labtec- I deserve those questions. I bought it in Novemebr and was SO busy that I didn't unpack it until January. So the return period had passed. So no return possible. Its a matter of scale. I believe that the improvement I will gain by improving my power cords outweighs the improvement I am getting from the Plasmatron. I have 2 mediocre power cords in my system and I want to upgrade my amp cords so I can use the current amp power cords to replace the mediocre cords I'm using on my front end. I dont "buy and sell things". But I am in the process of buying a new office building and therefore have lost my excess play money to put into the stereo. So I need to actually be picky about what I have and what I want.... I have a LOT of money in my Vienna Acoustics Die Muzik speakers that have not sold yet, and a beautiful Breguet Stainless Marine Big Date that I have for sale. So my scenario has changed since I bought the Plasmatron, and I need to sell it. It it is actually very logical..... At least, in my distorted mind. |
I'm confused Mattnshilp. You just paid full retail for a Plasmatron and it supposedly delivers "an incredible sense of air and presence as well as opening up the soundstage"...yet you're selling it to buy new power cords? Couple questions... 1. Why don't you just return it and get your money back? 2. Are you sure it delivers the improvements you state? If so, why sell it for power cords. Do you think a 100% passive device like a power cord will do more than an active device like this? 3. If you're genuinely planning on re-buying a Plasmatron after getting power cords, you're guaranteeing that you lose more money in the long run. You're going to pay full retail again for a product YOU ALREADY OWN and want to sell now at a discount??? Maybe I'm just not one of these anxious audiophiles continually buying and selling things, but I don't get the logic of any of this. I like to understand someone's logic so that I can properly digest any advice they post on forums. |
Hi All. Need some scratch to upgrade my amps power cords. Selling the recently acquired Plasmatron 3 with top tier plasma tubes and double duplex top tier outlets. New condition. Burned in 100 hours. Adds an incredible sense of air and presence as well as opening up the soundstage. Selling only because I feel I jumped the gun on getting an end stage upgrade when my amps and preamp power cord need upgrading first. Will replace with another Plasmatron when all else upgraded. I paid full retail ($4k) for it. Never discounted. I'll take a small hit to move it so someon will get a great deal.... PM me if interested. Steve from Empirical can vouch for what a difference these things make! |
Wow, it's amazing how the tech is changing from the beginning of this thread to now. Steve, how does this new cable differ from the one I have from you with the USB block (forget the name, but it's that small block that cuts the 5v signal)? What are the price differences and sound difference in your opinion? Matt, we should talk knives soon. I collect hand made Japanese cooking knives. I also collect special marking knives for my woodworking. I have a friend who turns tops and they are awesome. He won't sell them though, lol. I tried turning one, but didn't like it, so I kept with bowls and making furniture, lol. Matt, you need to call Johnny to see if he has the new AQ Niagara Power station (or whatever it's called). I spoke with a friend who had one in his system. He's had the top Hydra as well as the top SR Powercell (two of his favorites so far). He said that it's still early, but he plugs EVERYTHING into this Niagara and it's unreal. Says it has lowered what was already a very low noise floor. He hears better dynamics because of this lowered noise. No limiting at all and he listens to very dynamic orchestral as well as everything else under the sun. He said it was the best 7k he's spent on his system for upgrades. He also likes Burmeister, but has switched to the new Ayre twenty series. He has the Vandy 7's and has owned nearly everything else out there. He loves the older Avalon's if that gives you an idea of what he likes. I'm assuming he's still using the top tier AQ cables. Matt, check out the Basis TT with the Vector 4 tonearm. The arm alone is worth the price of admission. I have the Basis with the rebuilt Rega 300 series arm and feel it's as good as any TT I've heard under 5k or so. I run a Benz cart (my set up was only 1500 and that included the cart as it was NOS). That arm though is one of the best I've ever heard at any price. They have one above that, but it's going to be way too costly for your budget and honestly, the vector 4 is so good you won't miss the upper line arm. I strongly believe it's sound is in the range of what you enjoy listening to. Sorry to go on, but to me that arm is a bargain in the same vein that Steve's OSDE/SE is/was. |
To clarify Steve's post. I believe his proprietary chip for the ODSX is not DSD compatible. So the Ethernet to I2S external unit would work for any DSD capable dac. However, the built in Ethernet input may handle DSD but the dac itself will not process it. As a previous owner of the ODSE, I believe how the ODSE processes a recording in PCM sounds better than all dacs that I directly compared simultaneously playing a DSD version of the same recording. My version of the ODSX will have Ethernet direct input as this has been better sounding than USB from other dacs that have both Ethernet and USB inputs. Obviously this is subjective observation, but a perspective not mentioned here to date. |
Matt - I recently built an ODSX for a customer that did not care about 176 or 192 file playback, so I installed my new XMOS USB interface in it for him. This is the first one like this. This combo is simply incredible. Hands-down the best SQ I have ever heard, from analog or digital sources. Even really old tracks, like Peter Frampton live sound amazing. He also ordered my Power Block USB cable supply to go with it, which makes a big difference. I am still working hard on my new Ethernet interface, which supports all formats, PCM and DSD. I should have one running in the next week I hope. This I think will be the default interface for the ODSX. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Hi all, sorry for the paucity of posts. Nothing much new in the listening room. Trying to sell some stuff, or trade it. I did acquire an Audio Magic Oracle (fully loaded) power conditioner for a price too good to pass on. I was going to upgrade my Shunyata Hydra AV to their new Triton V2 but the Oracle was too tempting. I'll compare it to my AV and see how it does. If better then I'll still get the V2 and compare the two. If not as good then I'll move the Oracle to my office system or sell it and move the Hydra AV to my office system. The Oracle only needs a week to burn in since it has well over a 1000 hours on it already. Thank God!! Im trying to get my hands on a Lumin U1 still. I may just buy one and compare it to the Aurender N10 to make the final decision..... I'm also trying to arrange a trade with a local Lumin dealer. I am also considering a new turntable now that my Zanden 1200 mk3 is here and set up. Wow it's stunning!! I'm considering either a Merrill Williams REAL table or a Townshend Rock7 since they both have incredible reputations for table/arm combos for under $10k. I also want to get new PC's for my amps. Wanna try the new Shunyata Sigma HC since I love those Zitron Alpha Pc's so much. But I have heard great things about Enklein and am looking into it. disposable funds are limited now with an imminent purchase of a new office for the practice. Oy my wallet!!! But the new office will give me the space in my personal office to set up a great medium sized system. Which is awesome since I listen to my office system (currently Musical Fidelity and Kef) 6-8 hours a day.... i will admit that I have been a bit distracted by a new obsession with custom and semi-custom pocket knives and custom tops (yes, toy tops. But custom milled works of art that can spin for 15-20 minutes. Very very cool!). I'll keep you posted as always. I can't wait for my Emm DAC to arrive!!! In the meantime I'm still loving my ODSE! It's just amazing! |
If you will be using CD resolution SPDIF and can find an mhdt Constantine non -oversampling DAC used, jump on it and give it a shot. Should not cost more than $400 used. Then see if you can find something better for a bit more and and sell it if needed. Compare to a big bucks DAC before buying if you can. But personally, having heard and coveted DCS, there are so many good ones it seems for so much less these days, I would drop not that money on a DAC without trying the alternatives first. I’ve had my Constantine for several years and it still charms the pants off me every time. |
Gustard X20?......what is this? Please check out this thread: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?19433-Chinese-DAC-shames-a-few-heavy-hitters If you read the whole thread there is a second person who also likes this DAC better than Yggy and Vega. And this thing is stock and costs $870 delivered to your door in less than 10 days! This thing is really well made and has two 8 channel ESS DACs (8 DACs in parallel for each channel). Yes, I have one here and will be working up serious mods to it. The output stage has two op amps and a discrete buffer.....my output stage will be either one Jfet with no feedback or a single killer discrete circuit for I-V conversion for those that need more than one volt. Seems the hot thing is to upsample PCM to double or quad speed dsd using HQplayer (better than jriver, etc....according to some) and then run it into a DAC. Some say this is the best PCM sound ever. The Gustard could be run this way. Check this thread out about doing this using the Nadac: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?16542-On-the-12th-Day-of-Christmas-my-true-love-gave-to... Can the modded Gustard X20 be as good as $10,000+ DACs? We shall soon see. |
Audioman, you should find a dealer for the new Ayre Codex at 1500 or so and bring in your DAC to listen side by side. I have heard the Yagsdradall (which is a nice DAC for the price IMHO) vs the Codex and to me the Codex seems to be in a different league. The Schiit guys do a wonderful job and offer great value as you stated, but the new Codex is to me a game changer. No pre or post ringing, dynamic and just a great buy. I heard them both in a very revealing system that costs around 80k or so. I listened to a few other under 5k DAC's that day in that system (the Schiit unit happened to be there as it belonged to a customer who wanted to hear it vs the Codex. The Schiit unit was on my very short list until I was able to buy the Empirical OSDE/SE which is a killer DAC in it's own right and maybe the best 'value' DAC made right now (again IMHO). |
The absolute best buy is the $2300 Schiit audio s new dac .I cannot spell it but Yagsdradall is close ,go to Computer Audiophile review no $15000 dac is better. If you only gave half that The $1,200 Multibit Gungnir is 90% as good Which I own. If I can afford theit flagship later in the year I will buy it. Both are class leaders and exceptional huys. |
Hi all. Sorry for the long lag. I'm enjoying a day inside with the family thanks to almost 20" of snow.... Stay inside and stay safe everyone. Wednesday I had the opportunity to hear a Lumin T1, and compare it to my neighbors Aurender N10. It showed enormous potential, but lacked complexity and depth compared to the N10. I want to hear the comparably priced Lumin U1 as I think it may compare favorably with the N10. I'm intrigued. Hopefully the Lumin dealer I'm working with can get a hold of an S1 or U1 (just an S1 without the built in DAC) to audition. A friend also brought over a home made fan'less Chinese PC running Windows 10 and for $600- it sounded pretty darn good. I thought it lacked midrange bloom and depth but excelled at accuracy and detail. I would imagine a better power supply would go a long way to helping it out. I reached out to Neal of Music Vault and spoke with him at length. His new linear power supply is in the final phase of creation and once ready, I will acquire one to audition. I'll keep everyone updated as that gets closer. I acquired a license for Roon. I'm going to compare that to JRiver to hear which sounds better. Curious to hear that. To those in the Northeast, stay warm. |
I am familiar with one single product that is completely immune to the source, and that is the Empirical Audio Synchro Mesh. I have put countless digital sources in front of this product, and they all sound equally good using the Synchro Mesh after each and every one of them. I am not saying it is the absolute best digital source I have heard, but it gets pretty damn close using anything you want in front of it. That is a stunning achievement in my book. |
paul79, Yes, the shortcoming you are stating were there and yes, there are taken care of. It sounds nothing like the QBD76 sounded. jwm, I like what Dan Wright does and his modified Oppo is very good. However, when you compare Oppo as a stand alone unit vs using it as a transport for another DAC, the second scenario always has big disadvantage due to the crappy SPDIF output of Oppo. If you look inside the unit, the coaxial output is directly coming out of the board. I have spoken to lots of digital engineers and even though they claim that their DACs are immune to transport output quality, they all eventually admit that it is not entirely true. |
Yep. It is double the price now, so it must be better! ;) All crap aside, the DAVE has many fans already, and I am very curious what this advanced FPGA approach to DAC’s has to offer. All of the Chord DAC’s I have heard are pretty good, but they sacrifice in room presence for soundstage accuracy. They are nice, laid back (everything goes on behind the speakers), and polite for the most part. They also don’t have the best slam, dynamics, and clarity. A sonic fingerprint they all seem to have. From what I have read about the DAVE, this is all taken care of with it, so interesting indeed. |
We have the first Chord Dave DAC In North America for evaluation. All we can say that it is absolutely stunning and easily compares to 100K systems by Esoteric and DCS. Lots of DACs nows day are optimized for DSD playback but they aren't as great for redbook. This Dave sounds better then the best R2R 16 bit non over sampling redbook DACs while being capable of handling every Hi Rez format in existence. Dealer disclosure. |
This network streamer is only a renderer. It uses another computer or ipad etc. to drive the music to it over the internet. I was told to call it a streamer, but I think this might cause confusion. The pricepoint for the Interchange is $2600-2800 with the Dynamo power supply. The supply alone is almost $800. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Steve, thanks so much for sharing that info. I greatly appreciate it. So you are working on a network streamer? Wow, that would be pretty awesome. I'm sure you have no time frame, but IF you did one, would it have a ripper built in? Would it work with a NAS? Just curious. I do hope that Meridian works with everyone on MQA. Digital has too many smaller manufacturers and needs to have lower cost things in order for it to thrive. I know that Onkyo/Pioneer have MQA in their new DAP's. Can't wait for Tidal to stream it. They said that the more components that are using it, the better it will sound. That didn't make sense to me, other than the marketing part of it. Is there a price point for the streamer? |