So mush for the Antipodes as it is in the for sale I don't like it pile 😧
Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD
Hi All.
Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
4,489 responses Add your response
Matt, thanks so much for your labor of love on this thread (and to others who are regular contributors!). I have been on Agon for a long time and this is the best overall equipment thread I have followed to date. I found it a couple of years ago when I was in the market for a mid level DAC (<=$5K), and while the discussion is focused on the highest end products, the principles of auditioning and the theory of how designers and users are solving problems trickles down more effectively than I have seen for capital gains;-).  I actually ended up getting a much cheaper but well reviewed (and to me very good sounding) DAC than somd I had been considering, and then swapping the switching power supply out for an outboard LPS, largely after reading Steve Nugents and others design comments  And references to Paul Hynes designs.  Now enjoying tone, PRAT and sound stage in digital several levels ahead of anything I have experienced before.  Keep up your reviews and discussion, I will know what to look for on the used market in a few years... The more recent discussion on servers is also really helpful.  Thanks again, kn |
Innuos Zenith is an all in one with a SSD and ripper built in. Â Nuno from the company set me up with their US distributor. Â I assume they use a ripping program on the net for perfect rips. Â Mark, the US distributor just got back to me as I type this. I will call him to find out more. Â email me with any specifics you want to know. ctsooner@alumni.ou.edu |
Thank you so much CTSooner for the suggestion.... IÂ have started an Excell spreadsheet to track servers with storage+ripper features... Only three entries this far... Please keep suggestions coming. I am confident that by the time I am ready for taking the step towards a music server, there will be a number of choices. G. Â |
Thank you Matt, I also fear that ACS might be an add on for other music servers instead of an integrated server+storage+ripper, which is not what I am hoping. Eventually I would like to replace my trusty Esoteric X-01 with one single device to serve as an integrated server with mass storage and CD ripper. Future will tell. I am hardly in a rush, and will happily wait for these types of devices to mature. Guido |
Tdimler- I, once again, stand corrected. I did not go to Munich and obviously the Aurender guys keep tight lips until something is ready for distribution. https://youtu.be/a_4NEfSlb_I looks like a separate device dedicated to additional storage and CD ripping. Guido, it's custom made for what you were just asking for. Grins. I guess my questions about their "next" generation music server didn't warrant this as an answer. Lol |
AbeDirov - I already set all Roon to minimalist settings. Thanks. According to the forums, Roon and HQPlayer seam to be the two most respected players Antipodes sound wise. But HQ still requires a computer (still not sure I understand that). I have found that the Antipodes is VERY stable with power outages and brownouts compared to the Aurender, which is huper sensative to deep power fluctuations. July 19th burn in ends. So that's when the sound-off will occur.... Guido - according to the guy's at the shows and their reps, Aurender's product line-up is stable for quite some time and they have no intention of adding an internal CD spinner considering how easy it is to connect through the internet to a computer where you can do your ripping. I have to admit it's a nice feature and I would welcome a dedicated USB port on the back able to recognize an external CD spinner for rips. Peter - happy to hear the Melco. Maybe you know someone to make that happen. Reports are that my Davinci will be shipping next week. |
Not sure if they will.  Haven't heard that that's in the works.  I know someone who would know and report back after we get back from Mexico.  Matt, I can talk for free if you are around.  I was told to put the new Melco into that mix.  Was told this new upgrade or new unit (whatever it's called) is a leap from what the old one was.  I knew this was going to happen with all the servers you and we listen to.  I think in three years we will go back to these pages and shake our heads in amazement as to how far we have come!  I'm so bummed that the Melco can't use Room, although they said there is a work around if set up on the network to rip etc..if you use one of the NUC's out there.  Personally I was waiting on the Room one that was just released as a friend got to hear it before release and raved about it.  The Melco easily hooks up to a ripping device (bulk or one at a time) and has bit perfect software like all the other rippers.  I know someone who has heard the SG top of the line (is that the unit Matt?) at various shows he's had his own gear at and loved it.  The problem then becomes cost and is now the right time to drop the dough on servers?  I think with DAC's we are getting better and better also, but servers are still way behind the curve and we need to let companies shake things out to see who will be left standing and able to support the products for the future.  Those are just my own thoughts. I have Steve Nugent old server as many in this thread know and still feel it's as good or better than anything I've heard to date.  Matt, I swear I will get down  and bring it with me and we'll even get Johnny to bring over the Ayre QX5/20 to play with.  I will need to do an overnight to do this semi properly.  I need to call Steve and find out if it will hurt the sound if I put it on the net so that I can use Roon with it and also be able to rip using the XLD software he has loaded on it.  It's a Mac Mini so maybe some of you guys know.  If I set it up on my ethernet router, can I use an iPad or phone to control it somehow?  He has me running everything through Amara and all the high res/well recorded music is in iTunes, so I don't see how, but I am clueless at times about these things.  I'm sure there are others in this thread who may have a similar question.  Can't wait for you to get your DAC Matt. ;) |
Hi Matt, I am very curious about an outcome of your Aurender vs Antipodes battle. Just recently I've had a chance to compare Lampizator Superkomputer to DX Gen 2.  In the end, Antipodes won, but not by a large margin, mainly due its lower noise floor and ease of use. I had been listening to the Superkomputer for several weeks before my Antipodes arrived.  When I first switched it on after the Lampizator, it sounded really awful.  On the third day it became listenable and after 5 days it's sound was comparable to the Lampizator.  And only after 7 days of almost uninterrupted playback it surpassed the Superkomputer. Also, make sure, that you use Roon as apparently it sounds better than any other playback engine.  And, for critical listening in Roon it is important to disable all the background tasks it performs or wait for them to finish. Below is an extract from the Roon knowledge base on how to do it. "Here's a bunch of ideas. Some are things to control for. Some are other troubleshooting techniques. (1) In settings -> services, look "Syncing library now" + wait for it to finish: (2) In settings -> storage, look for "Scanning now..." + wait for it to finish: (3) In settings -> setup, disable both analysis settings. (4) The spinner in the upper right covers importing and metadata lookups. Wait for that to finish, too." And one last thing, when you switch between Aurender and Antipodes, you need to keep the Antipodes powered on at all times.  Otherwise, the capacitors inside it are discharged and it affects the sound.  What I did, I had another plugged in power cord near my rack and used it to keep the Antipodes powered on even when I was listening to the Lampizator. Good luck and happy listening! Aziz |
Hi gang. The ODSX is back from its spa week with the Dueland caps out and my precious offramp USB input back in. Even with no time on the new caps it's an improvement. I've been cooking th ODSX and it still needs about 400 more hours to hit my perfunctory 750 hours minimum before I make any true judgement calls. I'm also cooking the Antipodes DX Gen 2 in. On first test, with the DX Gen 2 still fresh,  the Aurender beat it squarely and without much effort. The Gen 2 DX is leagues better then the old DX Gen 1. But I need to try a few different software server options and I need to give the DX another 400 hours as well.... then I can make judgement t calls. I'm  STILL very interested in trying a CAD CAT as well, and I was told about the SGM (Sound Galleries, Monaco) server and I will be trying that in the room after the LH2 arrives. Speaking of the LH2, looks like next week or the week after will be arrival time. I also want to try out the Baetis server again once I finish my Antipodes/Aurender shootout. Curious to hear how much closer the ODSX gets to the LH2 with the usb input back in and the better caps. Sorry for the long breaks. I just don't have much to report DAC wise. I will sneak peak that I have been bitten by the headphone bug and have been trying out and taking notes on pretty much every pair I have tried. I'll post my findings on this thread (just to keep things fresh) but suggest anyone who wants to truly discuss my findings or has questions to find the identical Head-Fi thread I will post. Take care! |
Playback Designs currently offers the Merlot DAC in their Sonoma series and has announced their higher end Dream series at recent shows. There is no current DAC from PD below the Merlot DAC. http://www.playbackdesigns.com/ |
ODSX is back and sitting at the office. And the brand new replacement Chord DAVE is arriving tomorrow. The LH2 should be here in a few weeks. I might not open the DAVE and sell it as NEW, unopened now that the LH2 is coming. It was great but with the ODSX back in the room and the LH2 en route I simply don’t have need for the DAVE. No matter how good it is, it’s not close to the LH2 incoming. And it’s value stays the highest with a sealed box. I am getting into headphones, but that kind of money is hard to justify for a dedicated headphone DAC. SO if anyone is interested in a CRAZY good deal on a brand new DAVE then message me. Also, once my LH2 arrives I will likely be selling my cherished ODSX as well. I don’t need more then one DAC. So if someone wants to secure that then message me as well. In the meantime, I’m going to enjoy the hell out of my ODSX now that it has the USB Off Ramp input and old caps reinstalled. I can’t wait to hear it! The Ethernet input wasn’t working for my system and the Dueland Caps just aren’t my cup of tea.... I’ll report briefly on the ODSX when it’s in the system. Also, the Antipodes DX Gen 2 has been patiently waiting for a DAC's return to be compared to the Aurender N10. So that's pending and will be reported in a week or two. Finally, I’ve sorta gone crazy with headphones and will post my findings thus far here and on Head-Fi when I’ve settled on Cans and DAC/amp. Cheers all! |
Ayre has a custom chip and not the stock chip.  Hansen does very little digital filtering and is a master at analog filtering.  He had help on the digital side by one of the best in the world.  DAC's are all about implementation.  The clock used in the Ayre is one of the best on the market.  There is a story about it and it's not a secret. You can google and find out about it.  Ayre has always had some of the best sounding digital since they got involved years ago and the QX5 is special for sure.  I've never heard a bad word about it. It's not for everyone as some like others, but most of the others are much more money too. What I"m hoping is that Ayre eventually comes out with the ref DAC, but I know they had to get the 8 line launched first.  I have a feeling that once they get it out, that it will be discussed in this thread as a real threat to any DAC in the world.  I have that much faith in Charlie I guess.  Matt, can't wait until you get that LH D mk2 in |
I have enjoyed a PS Audio DirectStream DAC for nearly three years and very highly recommend it, especially for CD quality PCM digital files as input. About a year ago I added a PS Audio PerfectWave CD transport, connected to the DAC with an I2S cable, and it's the best sounding combination for playing CDs I've heard. But that might not be the case soon, as I've ordered a PS Audio DirectStream transport from my dealer, I suspect when it arrives, I'll probably say that IT is the best sounding combination for playing CDs. Â From what I'm reading, this new transport is even better and plays SACD disks, sending DSD directly to the DAC (I only have about 30 SACDs...might influence more spending on Amazon!) |
ctsooner.  I see the Ayre has the Sabre ESS ES9038PRO chip in it.   Sabre has a rep for brightness and digital glare.  I know there is more than just the chip when it comes to the sound, the overall design and implementation is a big part of the sound as well.  But I wonder if Sabre has done something with this new chip to eliminate the inherent  glare their chips have a reputation of having? |
I got rid of a great sounding ODSE/SE to get the Ayre QX5/20. I know that there are always firmware updates from Ayre that will make it better and better. Â They are going with MQA route and we will get the first unfold. Â I know that in a few years I'll send it back and for a decent price, they will install whatever new hardware is needed to keep it relevant and a top DAC for another 4 years. Â That would mean the life span is 7 years. Â Why wait for 5-7 years to enjoy the music I love and have fun with a new piece now? Â I don't have 18k for a new TotalDAC and it's better, but not by a lot, than my QX5/20. Â I don't see a 5k DAC sounding as good as the Ayre does for a long time. Â Others love their 10-20k DAC's and they probably won't see a 5k DAC touch theirs either. Â This is why we are into audio gear and not just music. Â |
this is a great thread, thanks for the input and information everyone. So, a lot of people keep saying things are moving fast, DACs will improve at a rapid rate. If so, why would it make any sense to buy a 20 grand plus DAC other than you want to enjoy the high quality sound now? Or could it be that even though things may be improving, it may take a long time for sub 5 grand DACs to get to the sound quality level of something like a Davinci Light Harmonic? |
G, thanks. Â I did realize about current draw, but your answer put it into better perspective for me. Â I am trying like heck to watch what we use and I have installed LED bulbs everywhere in the house and am about to put them in my wood shop too. Â I've noticed my bill drop a fair amount which is nice. Â Even coming out of standby, I notice a fair large difference in the size of the sound stage and even tonality. Â I have left my Ayre pieces on full time during burn in and have been burning in my Vandersteen Quatro's 24/7. Â Since it's not burned in yet, I don't know if it's leaving the amps on full time or the break in, but it's probably both. Â It's really starting to sing. Â I think I'll try leaving them on since it seems to be better for them, but even with the the stress of on and off, there shouldn't ever be a problem with the amps. Â Greatly appreciate your response. Thanks so much. On a side note, I thank everyone for this thread and not JUST Matt, lol. Â I've learned so much or had opinions strengthened by so many of you. Â Thanks for letting me play in this league. |
Hi ctsooner, there is no "average" monthly cost for keeping a system fully powered up 24/7. It depends entirely on the current draw. In the late 1990s I kept my old Rowland M7 high bias 350W monoblocks running at full power for some three weeks in Austin (TX). The overage on my AC bill came to about $15. These days I keep my system at full power all the time, including the Rowland M925 430W class D monos, and my montly electric bill is minimal... Wife never complains. But leaving the system at full power is not purely a matter of minimizing system stress during rapid thermal excursions.... I have experienced with my gear over the years that it takes a couple of hours to up to a couple days for a system to reach peak performance... That is running at full power, and grinding some audio signal. Even if fully powered up, the first CD I play after a few days of inactivity ends up serving as "warm up".... The second CD, is quite nice, and by the third one the system is glowing with music. G. G.       |
wow, I wonder if they had a bad run or something. Â I remember reading about something like this over on CA in a thread. Â It wasn't a DAVE thread, but talking about something else. Â Guys, I have a question. Â What is the advantage of keeping the gear on all the time instead of the normal standby modes (my Ayre is all standby)? Â How much money does it cost to keep the gear running (I understand it's all different due to watts pulled etc) on average? I know that start up is the toughest on components, but anything in these price ranges should have been engineered to not have problems over time with basic start up function hurting the unit in any way. Â Just curious. Â thanks. |
Matt, my DAVE has made that static sound once or twice after burning in letting it play for a number of days straight. Â I never turn mine off. Â Was a little disturbed. Â But each time I unplugged it and it was fine after that. Â It hasn't happened any more since I stopped playing for days in a row. Â And I still leave on all the time. |
@wisnon where do you find music that has been mastered in DSD without conversion at some point to/from PCM? I find the biggest issue with DSD is that mastering and production does happen in PCM realm, and conversion/resampling introduces noise. At least if you record in PCM 24/32 bits, do all your mastering and then do a final mix-down just once to 16/44.1, there's less chance of repeatedly introducing noise. |
Apologies guys. I’m sorta dead in the water with no DAC’s. My ODSX just arrived at Steve and he’s working on it. The Duelands are coming out and V-caps back in. Also swapping back to the Off Ramp 5 USB input that was in my ODSE. Steve is working hard on his Off Ramp 6 which is xmos based. He says it sounds awesome but can’t do hi-Rez over 96k currently. I like the xmos USB input design, So I’m waiting for him to fix the Hi-Rez issue and then I’ll upgrade to the Off Ramp 6. But the 5 is exceptional and, I think, was part of the magic of the ODSE. I’m looking forward to getting it back in. Im waiting to hear when my LH2 will arrive.... Chord DAVE has arrived back at my dealer, and I’m waiting for them to send me my replacement. It’s interesting to note that the dealer who received it back tested it (and of course couldn’t get the DAC to make the static sound it made with me) and told me that my DAVE was the best sounding DAVE he had ever heard. Likely because it had 700 hours on it. It just proves what Guido taught me years ago; that DAC’s need a thousand hours to sound their best. |
Not sure if Ayre is unveiling their reference DAC in Munich this weekend, but I believe they are. Â If so, I was told they went all out assault and it will be a major part of this discussion. Â They are working on a few ref components and some other stuff, so I'm not sure they are showing the DAC or not. Â We will find out in a few days. |
Dragon...I am in Switzerland. I know all about Andreas who is a Swiss living in Cali. He is a DSD godfather. I dont know him personally, though I have met many of the people behind the famous Swiss Brands like Dartzeel, CH Precision, Audio Consulting, LumenWhite, SoundKaos, Colotube, FM Acoustics, Â Heil AMT, Goldmund, Piega, Weiss, Merging, Illusonic, Manufacture Le Son,Rowen and Stenheim. No contact wth Boenicke, Studer/Revox, Soulution, SwissSonor, etc. I also know that MERLOT IS PROBABLY BETTER DSD THAN THE PBD MPD-5, etc. Since Lampi DSD, many have stepped up their games. Its all good for the consumer. DSD is best with the least amount of processing possible applied. One last point, Lampi is not just a tube buffer stage stuck onto a Digital section, the Tube stage is intergral. Part filter and part amplifying. The beauty is the minimalistic signal path this approach entails. So minimalistic that if you pull out just a single component the circuit collapses. Its one road leading to Rome. |
