The DS was very good, but not close in my system compared to the other kits I was trying. As Bill_K noted, results will vary dramatically based on a million variables. Many find the DS to be their final stop on the way to DAC heaven; and I am happy for them. For me, it was just a pit stop.
I am working today on the DSD-S. I am developing initial impressions and will report them when I have formulated some thoughts. I'm not close to done listening yet. |
Matt, I just looked up the Apertures and are they really $695 per panel??! Maybe I don't understand what they do but why are they so expensive? Are they just absorption panels? |
Matt, your wife is a problem.....you need to work on that with the same energy and focus as your dac quest..... |
UPDATE - OFF TOPIC
Interestingly, I have the electricians here today running some dedicated lines for me. I have been advised to either run 2 separate 20 amp lines or one single 20 amp line. My amps can pull (according to the stats) 10 amps at peak output (which is very infrequent). My initial thought was to give the mono blocks a dedicated 20 amp circuit and the rest of the rack another dedicated 20 amp circuit. I'm also installing a whole house surge suppressor to remove that from the room's equation and to avoid limiting current at all costs.
We went back and forth on whether to go with one or two circuits as each has their advantages: single circuit removes any ground loop issues whatsoever but can limit current if the amps demand more then 20 amps. Two circuits gives unlimited current, but adds potential grounding issues and makes things generally more complicated to avoid tiny noise issues.
We finally decided that the best way to confirm amperage need was to run a meter with the ability to show peak amperage use over a period of time. We hooked the meter to the current circuit (a single 15 amp circuit) and I sat down to some tunes. I played the stereo as loud as I would ever play it and made sure to include some music with very dynamic passages…
Final result was that I NEVER pulled more then a paltry 2.8 amps from the breaker. Even at high volumes and with some seriously dynamic passages. Merrill's Veritas amps must be VERY efficient!!!!!
So I'm having them run a single 20 amp circuit with an insulated ground and all 10 gauge wire (including ground wire). Quad outlet to run the amps direct into the wall and then use my Shunyata Hydra Alpha for my rack.
I'm also going to try running the amps through the Hydra since it is (according to Shunyata) not current limiting in any way (the filters run in parallel).
If this were a dedicated listening room, I would have had them run the extra circuits to a dedicated sub-panel. But its a long-term temporary room. And to be blunt, I never felt that my current normal house 15 amp circuit was holding me back. But as an anal, obsessive compulsive audiophile I NEEDED to get a dedicated line to get that little extra performance!!! We are a sad breed….
Totally unrelated to my thread topic, but I thought it was very interesting. |
tboooe - Merrill dropped them off for a listen. I have no idea how much they are. But I agree that $695- would be very expensive. I will ask Merrill and get back to you. I can't see what they are behind that elusive fabric cover. I assume some combination of reflective and absorptive….
Probably made from Unobtainium, coated with acoustic fibers from extinct mouse fur and glued together with a mixture of Botox and platinum solder... |
Hi Matt, I am not surprised about Veritas small current draw... Their efficiency is probably above 90%... Just to be on the safe side, have you tested current draw with some tracks that have large scale orchestra transients? E.g. 4th movement in Mahler's 1st symphony... Or those dreadful cannon shots in the Tchaikowsky 1812 Ouverture... Very loud but short duration transients might draw more current than otherwise seemingly loud sostenutos. G. |
Guido - yup. 1812 Overture was my first thought. Cannon shots so loud I was worried my clock would fall off the wall… 2.8 amps….
Most of the time is was between 1.5 and 2.2 amps.
I just find it SO interesting!!! I wonder how much a big VTL amp or MBL amp pulls!?!?! |
Regarding acoustic treatments: I consider the absorbing side panels the #1 priority. Put a mirror on the side walls if you have them and when you see the tweeters from the listening position this is where you put them. I recommend the absorbing panels with graphics from GIK acoustics:
http://www.gikacoustics.com/product/gik-artpanel-acoustic-panels/
As for bass and imaging, I recommend the 1/4 round tube-traps in a height that matches your speakers. These not only tame bass, but by acting as inner scattering devices, they improve imaging significantly by scattering the inner back-wave from the speakers. You position them inside and just behind the speakers with the round surface facing inwards.
http://www.acousticsciences.com/products/quarter-round-tube-trap
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Based on my experience I have to agree with Steve about treating 1st reflection points. I am simply amazed at the improvement in sound I am getting. I should have done this a looooong time ago! |
Matt, I suspect that you've made a good decision regarding the single heavy gauge dedicated line. As a point of info regarding the 2.8 amp measurement, though, I would by no means assume that an electrician's current meter necessarily (or even probably) has sufficient bandwidth (i.e., is fast enough) to capture the narrow high amplitude current spikes that are likely to be drawn by the amplifiers at times. Especially in the case of Class D (and also Class AB) amplifiers, whose current draw fluctuates widely with the dynamics of the music.
On another note, let me add my second to the many expressions of appreciation that have been made for the time and effort you are putting into performing and writing up this effort, which is and will be of considerable benefit to many.
Best regards,
-- Al |
matts wife is none of your concern, why do you post such bad opinions here for everyone to see and spoil a great thread! |
Hi Audiolabyrinth,
You are welcome!
There are two choices when it comes to the digital transport.
1. SDT-M reading SD memory cards.
2. CD/SACD player re-designed to a digital transport.
Both send DSD audio data to the DSD-S DAC via a proprietary digital connection, and achieve a very similar sound quality.
Of course, you can also dive in the computer audio based digital sources and use the asynchronous USB input of the DSD-S. :-)
Best wishes,
Alex Peychev
APL Hi-Fi |
You should view wifey as an integral system component like any other that needs appropriate attention and tweaking like any finicky, esoteric German turntable designed by some physics professor.... |
To Audiolabyrinth:
Sorry, forgot to mention the option of using any digital transport you like via S/PDIF or AES/EBU digital connections, but I am really thinking high-res only.
DSD to be exact. I don't remember when I listened to PCM last time, seems like never. :-)
Of course, any PCM digital source used with the above mentioned inputs will be converted to DSD64 or double DSD128. You choose which one you like better by pressing a button on the remote in real time. :-)
Best wishes,
Alex Peychev
APL Hi-Fi |
Agear is being funny and ya work on the better half!
Matt, as an FYI, I have owned a couple of Hydra units that are said not to limit current etc.... I can tell you that in my room, with two direct 20 amp lines, the Hydra limited the dynamics and openness of my amps and music.
Go figure. I sold them. Hydra 2 and 4. Amps sounded better plugged into the 20 amp Porter Port outlet.
Ok, I need my fix of reading more of your comparisons. I must have a hit! |
UPDATE:
Initial impressions of the DSD-S
As Alex requested: I used his power cord, his USB cable, plugged the DAC directly into the wall and uploaded Audirvana. The DSD-S had been running with source for a solid week straight (24/7) prior to today's listening.
Maybe it's because I don't really have a comparison DAC (since my brand new ODSE is but an infant with nary an electron through its juvenile microchips), but I am having a hard time pinning down the DSD-S's true nature.
As I previously said, it is well built and represents its cost and quality without any doubt. Alex confirmed that the DAC arrived to me, hand delivered, in its inner box only and that it is double boxed for shipping. He also said that he will work on adding more foam to the packaging just to give the look and sense of more secure packaging, even though what it comes with is tested and safe. I appreciated his open attitude.
My biggest initial impression is that it's not yet fully burned in. It has about 468'ish hours on it. I'm thinking at least 700 to fully break in, maybe more. It reminds me of the Aeris. I sense greatness, but it doesn't seam to be there just yet.
As such, I am calling everything I report right now as a solid first impression. After this, I'm going to hook it up to a DVD player and throw a cd on repeat and run spdif into the DSD-S for 30 days. That'l put a total of over 1150 hours on it. That will certainly be enough to stabilize the DSD-S rather thoroughly.
That said, it is currently very very good. In certain ways, it has already bested the Aeris (imaging and soundstage) but it's sonic reality (for lack of any other descriptor) isn't as full as the Aeris was at this point in burn in. The Aeris gave me a better sense of scale at 500 hours.
That brightness I mentioned is completely gone. Extended highs and Earth shattering lows abound; all of the DAC's at this top level do this well... Extension up and down is unrestricted. I found the midrange satisfying but not mesmerizing, yet. As I said, hints and suggestions of more to come. Like watching Mozart learn to play piano....
It's imaging is rather stunning, although I found that with certain very specific passages, there seamed to be a shift to the left of only certain instruments, while others stay central. It's really weird. The vocal will stay perfectly center stage, but the drum (which I know well and fully expect smack dab in between center and right speaker) is just a shade to the right of midline; while the matching left drum should be between center and left speaker is just a breath away from the left speaker. Very specifically located, just not in the spot I expected them to be. But center stays center. It happened twice. Other then that, imaging was dead accurate and everything was exactly where it belonged. The soundstage was quite wide and deep. A bit closer then the ODSE and further then the Aeris in seating position. But I think listening position is subjective and personal, and therefore not super important. The soundstage was also well defined. The DSD-D did a great job of positioning something really close to the speaker while not sounding like it's coming directly from that speaker. The word "control" kept popping up in my mind. I was more aware of certain secondary special affects and quiet accompanying instruments and there presence to define the overal performance with the DSD-S then with any of the other DAC's.
Leading and trailing edges were very nicely defined and lasted just as long as they should. Again. Control. Same with the low frequencies - tight, well controlled, deep and musical; not loose or flabby.
I mentioned this before, but the midrange left me wanted more. Maybe it was too controlled. But I felt like I I was on the verge of something bigger. We shall see.
I can say, bluntly, that I spent a lot of time critically listening and less time LITM (Lost In The Music). It happened, but not like when I was listening to the ODSE (not my current juvenile one but the fully broken in demo unit Steve lent me). I think that midrange was holding me back...
I would equate its performance to the Meitner MA1 without the brightness. Now to keel things in perspective, let's realize I am comparing some of the best DAC's ever made. My findings are SO subtle. The midrange of the DSD-S is not weak by any stretch; it's just not yet where I think it will be in another few hundred hours of cooking.
The DSD-S is clearly a solid state DAC. The ODSE gives more of a sense of tubes hidden within its solid state circuits; it's got a tube soul.
I don't know if that's really useful to anyone. I feel like this one was hard. And since it's clearly not fully burned in I don't want anyone to make a decision based on my statements here. Not until it gets way more hours.
Alex has implied that his USB conversion tech is SOTA and trumps all else out there. It synced flawlessly and i think that imaging benefits dramatically from that XMOS chip. I don't know enough to say more then that. I don't really know how to audibly seperate the USB conversion from the DAC itself other then to just evaluate the parts as a whole system.
If someone were to force me to make a list right now of all the DAC's I have heard I would probably say, fav to least fav (i'm gonna get SO much $#!+ for this!!!):
ODSE
Aeris
DSD-S
Lampy Big 6
Meitner MA-1
PS Audio Direct Stream
PS Audio Perfect Wave 2
Considering the DSD-S is not fully broken in, that's a pretty good start!
I did also listen to it direct to my amps. Sorry Alex, I just prefer my music run through my Criterion. Maybe it adds noise or warmth or whatever, but it's more musical and more engaging to me running through my limited edition uber Rowland Criterion pre-amp. Although I will happily give you the complement of it being the closest to not needing a pre-amp of all those I have tried. I will remove the ODSE from that list as my biggest gripe with running the ODSE direct was that the volume control does not go down to inaudible. I didn't like having to rely on adjusting the volume on the computer to around my listening level and then fine tune the volume with the control on the ODSE itself. I want a volume knob that's goes from zero to ten, not 7 to 8.5 .
I'm sure I'll think of something else as soon as I hit Submit, but that's it for now.
I will listen again in 2 weeks to see how things progress. And then 30 days from now will be the final eval between my current champion ODSE and the DSD-S.
As Steve has said, he's working on an Off Ramp 6 that uses the XMOS USB tech that the DSD-S already uses, and an upgrade to integrate that tech into the ODSE.
And as Alex said, the DSD-S can have many parts upgraded to take it to the next level.
Here is my sincere impression... If you decided to go with either of these top tier DAC's, you would walk away with one of the best out there and enjoy your purchase for years to come. These guys BOTH seriously know what they are doing!!! As a buyer, and a very long time enthusiast, I learned something totally new during my current system built. I used to shy away for these small, "One man show" companies and gravitate towards the big guys. These "One man show" guys usually have 4-7 other people working for them and produce top level gear for fair prices that offer way more performance for the dollar then lost of the big name labels can. It's a simply a matter of overhead and production. For those of you who are on the fence, try a Merrill Audio, Empirical, APL, Lampizator, or the many other speaker and electronic manufacturers out there that can't afford an advertising/marketing camping. You jus tight be happy you did. |
Oh. Alex's post reminded me.
All of that was with the DSD128 setting. To be honest I forgot all about that setting.
I'll listen when I can to DSD64 to see the differences.
There is definitely a recognizable flavor to the PCM to DSD DAC's (DSD-S, Direct Stream, MA1) that I heard. A subtle but identifiable similarity. |
Hi Matt, fabulous report as usual! Would you mind giving a quick test of DSD-S in current break-in state using the identical USB wires and PC as you used for the other DACs.... So to isolate the properties of the box from those imparted by the cords.
No, I have no conjecture on whether you will find its sound to be more/less/samely appealing.
G. |
Guido,
I did. Forgot to mention it. When I started to detect some deficits in performance I swapped back to MY USB cable and alpha digital PC. I wanted to make sure it was not the PC or USB cable affecting my impressions.
I ended up listening to my whole set twice, once with his USB/PC and again with mine. I honestly didn't notice huge differences. My AC is pretty clean to start with. And I'm not sure, honestly, how much a better USB cord makes. But my model of system consistency must be maintained to give accurate results.
I even switched back and forth between Amarra and Audirvana without a huge perceivable difference. Audirvana is way more flexible in what files it plays. |
Matt
Happy to hear you get to add some room treatments,
I continue to enjoy the thread |
Hey Matt,
I don't remember reading, and it may very well be in this thread somewhere, but could you list or point me to the rundown of your system for context? I read which amps you have, but perhaps a detailed list including the power delivery setup would be great.
Thanks! |
The Aesthetix are available. Just received mine today. |
Thankyou alex for responding to my post, a bit to soak in, LOL! |
Matt didn't Alex say somewhere that he shipped the DSD-S with like 700 hrs already logged on the unit? (Don't really want to go thru all the threads but I do remember something to this effect). |
RSF - It came with 300 hours, plus or minus.
Thanks for the heads up Rja. |
Paul79, you will find Matt's system discussed in detail at:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vaslt&1386218525&openmine&zzGuidocorona&4&5#Guidocorona
G. |
Matt,
Thank you for a great and detailed post with your initial impressions of the DSD-S!
It is rather interesting to me that you didn't find much of a difference between Amarra and Audirvana Plus, as well as between yours and my power and USB cables. Especially with the cables that have 5 times price difference as a set, I thought yours will be a lot better.
Though I am sure that the DSD-S will improve with more burn-in, it seems to me that your audio system achieves a certain synergy with DAC products built around Analog Devices converter chips. As all DAC devices, those have a specific sonic character.
Thanks again and can't wait for round two. :-)
Best wishes,
Alex Peychev
APL Hi-Fi |
Shame on me! I must have missed it among the flying insults, which I eschew like Pandora and Spotify (except to sample new music). Still, I think it is an amazing machine, and you know what they used to say in the Roman Forum: De gustibus non est disputandum!
Neal |
Alex - I was listening a lot that day and really concentrating. To be honest, I think I took on way to many variables.
I plan, next week, on focusing on just swapping pc's, USB cables and alternating between Amarra and Audirvana using your DSD-S. It'l be fun and I just feel like I didn't give your cables (and Audirvana) enough energy. I was trying to get a general feel for the DSD-S voicing and qualities, not focusing on differences between cables or software.
I'll post about it when I do it. |
Also, I didn't try any hi-res music yet. I will do that next week as well.
I'm trying to be fair and give everything a solid listen. It's very demanding of my time and concentration. Fun, but not easy. |
Matt, any thoughts on those Apertures??? At those prices I am very intrigued! |
|
I need to build some type of stand. I just don't have time.
I'm trying to do 20 minutes of projects with 40 seconds to do it in. Sigh.... |
Understood Matt. I just my panels on cardboard boxes for now. At the rate I go, they will probably stay on the boxes forever and be properly mounted. Its all about the music right??? :) |
Contact me and I will build you a DHT DAC that will blow all these away.
Happy Listening. |
How refreshingly self-afacing BigKidz.... What is the name of your company?
G. |
Bigkidz, I respectfully suggest that you advertise your product by purchasing a listing. |
BigKidz - Thank you for your generous offer. But I have my time dedicated to burning in my new ODSE and to giving Alex's DSD-S the time it deserves as he so generously offered to get the DAC to me for an honest and public evaluation. I must credit Alex for his willingness to put his kit out on the line so publicly, knowing that I will "say it like I hear it." Real time, no opportunity to stop the presses or amend the review… It speaks boat loads as to his confidence in his product and the quality and reliability of performance he expects of his own gear.
If you feel that your DHT DAC can truly "blow the other gear away" then I suggest you spend the next 30 days burning in a version of your DHT DAC with a USB input and balanced XLR outputs and then send me your DAC to audition in my current system, permitting me to report my findings to the masses as I have done so far. To be honest, if it is burned in already then I only need it for a week to get a solid feel for where it stands in relation to the other DAC's I have auditioned.
I am happy to put the time in if you are willing to accept the challange. Remember that USB from my computer is my only source, and I play almost exclusively 16/44. Although I am looking for some high res here and there since it seams to be a bit more available then it was before. But my goal is the best damn 16/44 I can get.
Alex was kind enough to provide me with some high res music so I think its worth while to start trying at least one or two songs high res just for fun...
Your call BigKidz. Put your DAC to the test and I'll be glad to report if it truly can blow away the others. My methods are very clearly presented, and multiple examples of my listening techniques and tastes are in this thread.
I am, by no means (Agear and RSF507) trying to add ANOTHER DAC to my list. My end goal is to just listen to music. But a statement as bold as BigKidz made most certainly deserves an opportunity to prove it. No? |
Alex, can you please educate me?
"Analog Devices converter chips" - what does this statement mean exactly? Are you comparing PCM converted to Analog directly vs PCM to DSD to Analog? Or are you referring to Steve's "older" USB Off Ramp 5 conversion technology as compared to the XMOS USB conversion?
My technical fund of knowledge is woefully limited and I welcome any education you or Steve offer on that subject.
Thank you. |
Mattnshilp,
I think when Alex speak of "Analog Devices chip", this is the name of the chip manufacturer. Kondo for example uses a chip made by Analog Devices in their DAC 5 Signature and DAC 5th Element...the 1865 chip I think?
Zanden uses the TDA 1514 double crown DAC chip, etc...
More recently, Gryphon Audio Stahl-Tek have used ESS Sabre 9018 chip, etc...
Alex - hope I got that right! |
08-07-14: Bigkidz
Contact me and I will build you a DHT DAC that will blow all these away. Send him your prototype. Ironically, in the world of digital, it is rare for one piece to "blow away" another. |
Here is my sincere impression... If you decided to go with either of these top tier DAC's, you would walk away with one of the best out there and enjoy your purchase for years to come. These guys BOTH seriously know what they are doing!!! As a buyer, and a very long time enthusiast, I learned something totally new during my current system built. I used to shy away for these small, "One man show" companies and gravitate towards the big guys. These "One man show" guys usually have 4-7 other people working for them and produce top level gear for fair prices that offer way more performance for the dollar then lost of the big name labels can. It's a simply a matter of overhead and production. For those of you who are on the fence, try a Merrill Audio, Empirical, APL, Lampizator, or the many other speaker and electronic manufacturers out there that can't afford an advertising/marketing camping. You jus tight be happy you did. That is probably the most important point made in this thread. I have always gravitated towards boutique, artisanal manufacturers. A lot the best, most cutting edge gear can be found there. There are downsides, but if you are a true blue phile in search of the ultimate SQ, its the place to be.... |
Matt,
I mean the actual D/A converter chip around which the DAC unit is built.
As I've mentioned before on this thread, the ODSE and Aeris most likely use exactly the same D/A converter chip - the AD1853, except if Steve hasn't gone for the AD1955, but it is still Analog Devices and has their "house sound" to it that helps your system to achieve the synergy you desire, similar to the role of your preamp. :-)
Being well aware of Analog Devices converters sonic character, I already suspected this is the case for your system when you liked the Aeris and ODSE so much, but that is probably the truth for any system that is a "mix and match". :-)
Especially the ODSE running the digital filter of the AD chip at 2X or 4X oversampling instead of the normally specified 8X oversampling for CD quality data, it emphasizes midrange lushness even more, while sacrificing noise floor and distortion figures, of course. But we are not in this hobby for perfect measurements; all we care is a good sound that we like. :-)
Hope this explains it.
Best,
Alex Peychev
APL Hi-Fi |
Contact me and I will build you a DHT DAC that will blow all these away. When I started building a DAC with DHT output based on Esoteric P-03/D-03 combo was 10 years ago, but not many could afford it. :-) In my experience, to build a "proper" DHT output stage of a DAC, it has to be separated on two enclosures, one of which is the bulky power supply. Want one? :-) But what is the purpose of a DAC with DHT output stage connected to an amplifier with DHT output stage? :-) Best, Alex Peychev APL Hi-Fi |
Like so many others I am enjoying this thread for the entertainment value. I won't be purchasing any of these DACS as I recently redid my whole system and decided to go analog again. I'm waiting digital out for a few years while it figures out what the standards will be and how much will be available via high rez. That takes nothing away from what this thread is all about and it's just fun to read.
I think going into this most felt that there would be no one DAC that stands out head over heels over any of them. Most realize it's about room, gear and set up as much as the DAC (again, it's gear, lol). Some of the claims of folks make most laugh or are amusing. This thread has been very civilized which to me is the amazing part. Most of us have no idea about WHY the tech stuff is doing what it's doing. We have some knowledge, but the majority here aren't engineers (yes I'm sure there are many of you who do understand every last tech detail).
There have only been a couple of Trolls (IMHO). I'm heavily involved with an Oklahoma Univ sports board on Yahoo. Been a member since way before Yahoo purchased it over 13 years ago. I share 'inside' info at times and I'm often 'sources told ESPN or FOX....I get hammered by fans and most threads I post on become polarizing because fans don't want to believe things or they are jealous.
In this thread there could be so much snipping because of petty jealousies between posters who can't afford these products or designers who compete for dollars and pride or store owners who sell other products and don't' want THEIR income to suffer.
I just had to put this out there and if anything, it would make me look at a couple of these boutique DACS in the future when I'm ready to take this plunge.
Matt (and the other designers) I loved how you handled the Troll post about 'my DAC is bigger than yours'....Seriously, we will have to get together on my next trip down to Verona. Thanks again for an entertaining thread. |
In that price range, based on your desire for a musical sounding dac I would vote for the Vitus RD-100. Vitus pushed this Reference series dac such that it sounds better than even the previous SCD-010 cdp in the Signature Series! It uses modular design like the Signature series also, meaning the dac can be easily upgraded in the field as upgraded modules become available in future (as opposed to a whole component upgrade). The RD-100 also has Vitus's relay-based volume control & can be used as a linestage in a simple rig. There are a couple of reviews out which are worth a read. That would be my pick anyway. |
07-18-14: Audiolabyrinth
Matt, when you listened to the Romulas at audio-connections, what was your impressions? Hi Al, I own a 240v (Australian-delivery) Romulus, 2nd owner, low hours in excellent condition which I will be putting up on the 'Gon in 1-2 months. It's a great player that sounds very natural and un-digital. Just an fyi! |
Alex is of course in competition with me and throwing disparagements where possible. He knows I'm reading this too.
The theory behind my D/A conversion is to approximate a NOS DAC, with no digital filtering at all because this sounds best, period. You can select the digital filter on my DAC and I recommend the profile for 192 to be used for all sample-rates. This simply sounds best.
As for the house-sound or character of Analog Devices D/A chips, I have found them to be more natural and lifelike than most other chips, including Sabre, AKM and many other favorites by DAC designers these days. I have built prototype boards using many of these to evaluate them, as well as modding many DACs from other manufacturers in the past. Some of the TI/BB chips are also excellent. If I had to pick a new chip for a new DAC, it would be Analog Devices or TI/BB.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Steve N, I like texas instruments-Burr-Brown dac chips myself, listened to many others, always owned The burr-Browns, maybe not to the level you guys are talking about with dac chips, anyway, an oldie but goodie is the 1796 BB, incredible life like treble to say the least, very real sounding, not steril, analitical, cold, good to my ears, I preferred the 1796 over the 1704 that the masses like, cheers |
Melbguy1, welcome to this great thread, are you going for the vitus player? |
