Good point Charles1dad, LOL!, however, I have followed this thread from the beginning, Matt's tast in sound is alot like my own, He has got my interest jumping about the ODSE! |
I like my Romulus player more than the Lampi/Offramp combo. It is an amazing player that is so natural and full bodied in presentation. Very few know about it, but it draws me into the music more and is just more musical to me. Aphile terms don't explain it, just an ease that invites.
Remember, I don't have a computer front end anymore. If I did, then an Offramp and Dynamo power supply in front of the Romulus would be a must. The combo would be stellar I am sure. I just don't want to deal with the rigors of computer based audio at this time in my life. Downloads, ripping, back-up, computer details etc...
Right now my music collection is more enjoyable with the Romulus as a one box solution. |
Matt.. If you tap the little "gear" symbol in the top left corner of the front panel display it will show you the firmware version. There's currently two versions 6115 and 5407 the display will say fpga and either 61 or 54, 6115 is the newer one, but some like the older 5407 better .. |
Grannyring,
I understand. As I mentioned on my system page I heard the Romulus Signature 2 days ago. Utterly musically impressive in the best sense of that term. With that gorgeous sound why fool around with a computer? Yes I understand.
Charles, |
Charles my answer back to your statement is why fool around with CDs
Also not all Mac Minis are created equal, there's a lot of software manipulation, upgrading, not to mention software players, different rippers,data formats, power supply upgrades, running on battery etc etc
I would love to hear an ODSE in my system against my USB only Lampi Big 5
I really enjoy this thread, as good as anything I've seen on this site in a long time |
If cost was no object, I would be getting a Lampy Big7 with no USB converter as, I hear the straight USB implementation is that good.
The DHT tube design is da bomb and this is coming from my pal who owns a Hugo, Direct Stream, MSB Platinum stack with Galaxy 2 clock upgrade, a Mytek and a GD Master 7. Sez its the best PCM he ever heard and he is DSD freak.
I'm just saying. |
If cost was no object for PCM, I would buy an American made DAC with dealers like the Berkeley Alpha Reference. |
If cost were no object I would have an acoustically perfect concert hall in my home and live performances day and night. ;) |
07-05-14: Grannyring
I like my Romulus player more than the Lampi/Offramp combo. It is an amazing player that is so natural and full bodied in presentation. Very few know about it, but it draws me into the music more and is just more musical to me. Aphile terms don't explain it, just an ease that invites.
Remember, I don't have a computer front end anymore. If I did, then an Offramp and Dynamo power supply in front of the Romulus would be a must. The combo would be stellar I am sure. I just don't want to deal with the rigors of computer based audio at this time in my life. Downloads, ripping, back-up, computer details etc...
Right now my music collection is more enjoyable with the Romulus as a one box solution. I'll give you 3 months and you'll be on another bus. Never seen anyone cycle through more gear ... not a negative but just an observation from a new member. |
Cost no object ? Purpose built acoustically and aesthetically perfect room. |
Erikminer,
You have a very nice room that could benefit from some treatments other than the RoomTunes Tuning Products.
Check out:
http://www.vicousticusa.com/VN/Musicbroadcast/ProdutoInfo.asp?Id=49 |
07-05-14: Kana813
If cost was no object for PCM, I would buy an American made DAC with dealers like the Berkeley Alpha Reference.
Kana813 (Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread) Not sure if that would possess the appropriate tonality for his system based on the verbiage so far. 07-06-14: Erikminer
Cost no object ? Purpose built acoustically and aesthetically perfect room. That is the truth. To do it right, its a lot more money than a mid-tier, upper level dac, but its worth it. Dacs come and go like the wind. Rooms do not. |
The problem is that an orchestra is not the funnest thing to coordinate and you are less likely to get the world class performers you want into your hall. Besides, musicians tend to not like being called up to play unfamiliar pieces at odd hours. On the other hand they do not like playing the same thing over and again either. |
The problem is that an orchestra is not the funnest thing to coordinate and you are less likely to get the world class performers you want into your hall. Besides, musicians tend to not like being called up to play unfamiliar pieces at odd hours. On the other hand they do not like playing the same thing over and again either. |
Interesting UPDATE:
I was approached by the owner of APL HiFi, Alex Peychev, and offered an audition of his DSD-S. This is an $8K DAC, all hand built with lots of high end doo dads, gizmos and proprietary thingamabobs that we audiophiles love to have in our gear! Relatively boutique line so not super well known. Both PCM and DSD compatable. Feel free to do a google search to learn more about it, it has very impressive specs.
I'll post my update/review when I get it in and give it a listen.
Wednesday is soon approaching for my ODSE vs DS battle. I'll keep you posted. The DS is steeping and the ODSE is resting up for the big fight. |
Thanks Joecasey.
I get to hear lots of gear as I sell gear for Aphile friends and modify gear to learn and later sell. |
Joecasey, one piece that will never leave is the Dude preamp! I have owned 3 of Paul's Dudes over the past 8 years or so. Each with various upgrades etc... |
@Kana813.. More acoustic are planned.. but it is the living room and I need to be somewhat conscious the aesthetics.. |
07-07-14: Erikminer
@Kana813.. More acoustic are planned.. but it is the living room and I need to be somewhat conscious the aesthetics.. You mean conscious of the wife and her potential homicidal rage...:/ |
Grannyring, that's great you're still finding improvements.
We all get bored with our system and need a change sometimes. I use tube rolling and switching between SS and tube components. It's much easier than buying new gear. :-) |
Hi Abruce,
I believe that whatever system configuration makes you happiest is the way to go. I could relate entirely to Grannyring's experience, if you don't that's perfectly okay. We're all just doing our individual thing, that's all. If you're pleased with your Mac Mini then there's no logical reason to change what you have.
Charles, |
Hello all...I've been following this rather long thread too. As a long-time chaser of the audio grail I find myself, like so many of us, getting closer and closer but never "done". My 2 cents about ultimate 16/44 dacs is my Lampizator Big 6...it just does that so wonderfully well...With Duelunds and some good NOS's it's as natural [to me and my visiting guests] as I've ever imagined reproduced music can get...Full disclosure is I'm moving to a 7 because I'd like to visit DSD at some point, I guess?/ and I can never get enough of this stuff...plus my good buddy has a hoard of those DHT tubes that I'll go crazy with swapping out for months & years? to come. Also, FWIW: my local buddy has the Coincident CSL pre and really likes it in his system (it sound's really really good), and I have my TRL Dude w/ Duelunds and NOS tubes (feeding TRL amps) which I love love love so...Charles1dad summed it up nicely in his last paragraph about system synergy and personal tastes...But I think we all kinda new that already. Happy Lissn'n |
Lissnr, while I'm not really excited by the Lampizator or for that matter tubes in audio, I have always been at a loss to understand why anyone would argue why X is better than Y verbally. This thread is a perfect useless endeavor by a very sincere guy. He has a great opportunity, if he can make a conclusion after comparing multiple dacs.
I don't agree that system synergy is a substantial problem. I have found some instances where some products are better with some systems, but it is just a matter of degree.
I think the best threads are those where people are already decided and share how a product works best for them, such as that for the Lampizator. |
Hello Tbg, Yes, in an ideal world personal auditioning in one's own system trumps all forms of verbal recommendations of course, but I think what keeps a lot of these threads alive is people being able to add their personal listening experience descriptors to a "What do you think about X" inquiry. Using terminology such as the 1980's vintage CJ amplifier is "a little fat/tubby in the bass with added ripeness in the mids" or that some brand of SS amp has a very "quick or incisive attack" or "razor sharp imaging" (pardon the old-school generalities) can be helpful in pointing people towards or away with particular makes/models. The fact that people here all listen...is far different than explaining to a blind-from-birth person why you prefer the color blue to red...
System synergy complicates things more, of course, but the sheer number of variables intrinsic to this hobby already add tremendous complications...as well as bring about "options" in personal taste...
Again, I think most of us are probably in agreement about the limitations of "Discussing Listening...".
Nevertheless these posts thrive under the common thread of our musical tastes and associated systems and equipment. Just 2 cents.
|
Tbg - your post makes no sense to me on so many levels.
Most importantly is why you are even here if you think this thread is worthless. I have no problem with you thinking that at all, but why did you read it then???
And for you to dismiss the Lampy so cavalierly, or tubes in general, boggles my mind. I have the luxury of having heard the Lampy, recognizing its incredible strengths and it's few weaknesses.
I can't imagine that my comparisons haven't helped at least one person to get the audible flavor of some of the gear I have auditioned. If it doesn't help you I'm fine with that. But I'm sincerely hoping I have either helped, or at least stimulated, some of the other readers.
We are at 33 thousand views. So I'm thinking someone is enjoying reading this.... I may check this thread frequently, but I can't take credit for all 33 thousand views. Lol. |
Mattnshilp, I am curious about what you will conclude. You needed to understand that i've been in this hobby for 50 years. I'm not the least critical about your initial interest and thoroughness. I didn't dismiss the Lampizator for others, but it is just not my cup of tea.
I certainly have been interested in some components based on a written comment here and elsewhere, but it seldom, if ever, is a shoot out. It usually is based on enthusiasm and my finding more who are enthusiastic also.
The Lampizator is certainly an example. I even spent much time listening to it at CES. It is characteristic of tube units, which have been the vast majority of components I've owned. I've been involved in some fairly amateur recording sessions and have discovered that with current vibration and electrical isolation, many solidstate components sound less musical and more real like what I heard in the studio or theater.
Finally, I have participated in several double blind ratings of components including several 30 second exposures where you were to state whether it was the same or different. After these, I often got two or three to compare as you are.
I guess you might call me jaded, but I have a handful of friends whose opinions I trust.
Finally, I suspect there will be no conscience on which is best. |
Tbg: It is ridiculous for you to go to an audio show and hear a system for a few minutes with the Lampi in it and have any idea what contributions it makes or not relative to the rest of the system. If you have not heard it directly compared to another in a familiar setup, you have no idea what its sonic signature truly is. And 50 years of experience means nothing. |
Tbg.. Is English a second language for you? Because I'm having trouble understanding your thoughts and ideas. In your first post you say that the vast majority of units you've owned sounded like tubes or like the Lampy but then you say it isn't your cup of tea.. You seemed to completely contradict yourself. |
Matt, you are doing a fine job ole chap, I, for one enjoy this thread alot, It has my vote for best thread of the year, I enjoy your context of words that you have when describing all that you are doing. Happy Listening! |
I guess you might call me jaded I think that's an understatement, but there is a reality behind that sentiment. This hobby has a lot of issues. Its not something the chipper fanboys like to look at. Finally, I have participated in several double blind ratings of components including several 30 second exposures where you were to state whether it was the same or different. After these, I often got two or three to compare as you are. Very few of us have that frame of reference, and it often lays to waste our self-delusions. I tried to make this point earlier in the thread. A blinded session with the Lampi, ODSE, and Aesthetix Pandora would be most intriguing and disappointing to many. I've been involved in some fairly amateur recording sessions and have discovered that with current vibration and electrical isolation, many solidstate components sound less musical and more real like what I heard in the studio or theater. There is also a lot of truth to this. I have experimented with mechanical and electrical isolation, and the fruits can be profound. Both strip away veiling and can get you closer to being a believable auditory illusion. I have many friends in the SS camp who have pushed various grounding schemes to lunatic levels. In this context, tubes just add blur and veiling. I go back and forth on this one. I have a good sonic memory, and when a detail of the soundstage is missing (with tubes), I get irritated. This is one reason why I was waiving the flag for the Aeris early on based largely on Matt's verbiage and the "promise" of that piece with proper grounding schemes in place. ....I'm not really excited by the Lampizator or for that matter tubes in audio As a future Lampi owner, I am not offended by this. Its a free world (for now). That being said, Tbg should get a 7 in his hands..... |
Tbg.. OK I get it.
You now prefer the sound of solid state to tubes. |
Matt, I've very much enjoyed your thread as some day in the not too distant future I too would like to upgrade my digital front end with a bias toward redbook. I am very interested in learning your observations regarding the aesthetix units. Finally, it has been my experience that it is truly very difficult to become familiar with a component and or system over a short time. My experience is that it takes familiarity and this takes weeks rather then minutes to fully appreciate what a specific component may contribute. It is a dilemma when one is investing significant dollars to hopefully improve ones system. |
Sorry all. I did my comparison yesterday. I'm so busy I can't get time to sit and write about it. Hopefully later today....
What for the Update. |
|
Interesting spin on things. I think most folks following this thread realize it's what Matt likes in HIS system. As he said, he's just sharing what he hears and if anyone is spending this kind of money based on what Matt thinks, then you deserve what you get. This doesn't seem to me to be about what you should buy for yourself. I realize the manufactures want positive free press in the thread, but why shouldn't they.
As for 50 years following audio, so what? I have been following it close since 69 myself. I get out and hear a ton of products and like to think I have an idea of what things sound life VS live (yes, I listen to live whenever I can). That makes me no expert. I once told a group of sales people I trained that you newebies should never be concerned with someone saying they have 20 years in the industry. To me, most of those folks have one year of experience 20 times. Not saying that TGB (of whatever the name is) doesn't have a ton of real experience, but some of your statements aren't those made by someone with an open mind. I understand what Matt was saying. JMHO though |
|
I'm likely not the only one just dyin' to hear the results of the ODSE vs DS.
Pins and needles... Like a long, good movie, you just want to know how it ends! |
UPDATE:
This is the ODSE vs PS Audio Direct Stream comparison.
First off. I started with the DS using the older firmware and then update to the newer firmware so that I could hear the difference. The update had a hiccup or two. But then I tried to upload the original firmware again, and I crashed the DAC; like nothing worked, touchscreen was unresponsive.... That was disconcerting to be honest.
I described the PS Audio DirectStreams physical attributes before, so I will not repeat myself. Think Perfect Wave or Perfect Wave 2 with a different name silk screened on it and a more elegent, simpler touch screen layout and your there. The DS is very well built and buetifully finished. See my earlier report on more specifics.
Sound wise, the DS had about 460 hours on it +/-. More then enough for burn in based on the general attitudes reported on the many forum threads growing around the DS. Here is what I found...
original firmware:
In some ways, I thought the DS sounded like the ODSE. There was no brightness, no harshness and nothing offensive about its performance or sound. Nothing that made me fatigued or pushed me to stop listening. I found myself very engaged at times to the notes flowing from my speaker drivers. Up top, the highs were seamlessly extended and correct; never overly pronounced nor subdued. The mids were where they should be; musical and with correct tone and texture. The female voice was beautifully reproduced on more then one occasional and the deeper male vocal was equally well reproduced. Low frequencies extended to the netherworld and were well controlled; not overly grippy and not loose. To be honest, it did everything right. I found that trailing and leading edges were not quite as well defined as with the Big6, MA1, Aeris or ODSE. There was a tubelike presence about the music that invited you in and said, "pull up a chair and stay a while."
The soundstage was wide and deep and put me solidly in the middle of the theater. The location of performers was correct (although I sometimes found them to be shifted slightly to the left of where I was used to. This was wierd because center stage was still clearly center stage at all times). Each instrument/performer had the correct sense of presence and space. Technically, it does what it is supposed to, and with aplomb.
Here comes the but.
But I spent a LOT of time listening and not that much time tapping my feet. It had a DSD sound, if that makes any sense. Now here comes my disclaimer... I have only heard DSD in uber expensive show systems and in a few friends houses where they spent time trying to prove to me that DSD was better then PCM because it just was, and "see, listen to this!". Maybe I'm used to the "shortcomings" of PCM and found the DSD to be too different to my picky ears. I was under the impression that the MA1 also upconverted everything to DSD, and the MA1 could not have sounded more different then the DS.
I listened for 2 hours, going back to songs multiple times. A few tracks on my play list really shined on the DS and every time I hit one of those, I'd rush back to my other tracks to see if I had missed something... But I didn't. To me, the ODSE and the Aeris were both better in pretty much every way. And I am pretty sure (even though I didn't do a direct head to head) that I would have preferred the Big6 over the DS as well. I will say that the DS did pull subtlety out of the music that the Aeris occasionally missed.
Again... My ears, my system, my opinion. Don't beat me up and don't write the DS off because of what I said.
Interstingly, I found that the DS occasionally had a hard time holding on to the data stream and I had to close my Amarra and re-open it to re-sync with the DS.
Also, the DS is quiet. I did not try to run it direct, but I ran it at 100% into my pre-amp and my pre-amp was consistently 8-12 percentage clicks higher then with the Aeris or ODSE to get the same volume. Noise floor did not seam to be affected by this, but it is worth noting.
Then I uploaded the newer firmware...
Interesting. Better in some ways and worse in others. Overall, the update gave the DS a sense of emotion and grip it did not have before. I agree with some other reviewer who said it sounded like the "presence" control was turned up. But I found the soundstage a hair flatter. The image stabilized and perfomers were pushed back to where I was used to hearing them. Dynamics also improved. It clearly became more engaging and I fell into the music more then I did initially. I listened for another hour or so with the update and sincerely enjoyed my time. Much closer to a contender with the firmware update.
Then I killed it. I tried to upload the initial firmware to compare again, and the software imploded and nothing worked. It tuned on, but thats it. Wouldnt lock, wouldnt take any touchscreen input. The lights were literally on but no one was home.
Time to switch back to the ODSE.
Hook her up (I am getting used to this since she's been in the systen for 6 or 7 weeks now). Locked right in, tuned on. Click click click. AND WHAM! I'm sucked right back in. Spine tingling, hair raising vocals. Eyes closed, swaying to the music. Conducting like an idiot in an empty room (you know you do it also!). I listened to 5 songs: 2 vocals, 1 jazz, 2 classical (ok, 1 soundtrack theme and 1 classical) and I just knew....
I packaged up the DS and emailed PS Audio for a return authorization.
Wait for it.....
And then I emailed Steve and told him to start production of my very own Overdrive SE with Hynes Regs and CUTF Coupling caps. Steve is working on some new stuff that will make it even better (can't wait to hear it!!!!)
Sorry all you Direct Stream lovers. Its a great DAC no doubt, and with the new firmware upgrade certainly getting closer to competing with the likes of Rowland, Empirical and such, but not yet fully up to the challenge. I was impressed by the improvement they could make with a firmware update. Being that it is completely software driven, its very cool that with the right software they will slowly and progressively improve the performance.
FYI - I am pretty sure the Rowland Aeris is also software driven. I bet that the right firmware update could make the Aeris untouchable. Which is amazing considering just how good it is right now! In a warmer system, or a system with tubes in the pre-amp or amp the Aeris is the way to go, no doubt.
But for me. With my ears, my room, my system I am excited and feel I have done more then due diligence in selecting my ODSE as my keeper DAC.
Of course, that all said, I have a wonderful DAC inbound in the DSD-S and cant wait to hear that and report on it. And I am waiting to hear from John on borrowing the Aesthetix Romulus SE, which I am actually dying to hear!
I have also already received suggestions for a litany of other DAC's and need to say no at some point. But since my ODSE will probably be 6-8 weeks (I think, maybe sooner) before it arrives, and I'm shipping the current Empirical Audio gear off to a reviewer, Im glad to get some other DAC's in to play with in the meantime.
I still have my Aeris up for sale and I am enjoying that thoroughly in the meantime, until one of you with a tube system buy it from me! ;)
And I will now put my PS Audio Perfect Wave 2 up for sale as well. So if you know someone looking for a good deal on a Perfect Wave 2, let me know... for $1400'ish dollars, its a great great DAC! |
UPDATE continued:
oops. I hit submit by accident.
So keep watching and I'll throw reports of the other DAC's up as I get them in. Thanks to everyone for giving me your ear and your opinion thus far. It has been enormously fun!
As always, let the pot shots commence!!!
fin |
Ctsooner, I have an open mind, but I trust only my ears. Also my only interest at this time is in music servers that play double DSD.
I think that Matt has done what all of us would or should do, namely to listened to the many choices. My only real conviction is that most others, were they to do the same, would not agree about the winner. |
"My only real conviction is that most others, were they to do the same, would not agree about the winner."
Then they would all be wrong and burn in the fiery pits of Mordor! Bwa Hahahaha!!!!!!
Ehem. Did I say that out loud?
I seriously believe the ODSE is a sensational piece and many of you would be as impressed as I am of its stellar performance. But system synergy is everything and tastes vary, that's why we have so many manufacturers who are all making a living selling gear.
It's always more fun going on a trip with friends. And I made a whole bunch of new friends on this trip. Mission accomplished, on SO many levels!!! |
Just curious, I see that you have a serious analog setup, so how close or distant is the difference between your chosen Dac and your analog? Do you still find analog superior or has the gap narrowed? |
Hummmm. Haven't done an ODSE to analog shootout.
I'll do that when my ODSE comes in!!!
Great idea. ;) |
I have been at so many stores over the last many months and have now heard nearly everything you can think of. I have found only a handful of stores that I even like and would do business in. I was shocked considering what a tough time it is. That's another subject for another thread though.
Matt, John was here setting up my new system last week and he too can't wait to get the unit in and burned in. You should give him a call on it to see if he has any time frame. |
Matt, I wouldn't pretend to having read most of what is posted here. Can you please tell me what ODSE stands for? |
ODSE is the Emprical Audio OverDrive DAC SE version, by Steve Nugent....make of the OffRanmp converter (fo example). |
Matt said... "I am pretty sure the Rowland Aeris is also software driven. I bet that the right firmware update could make the Aeris untouchable."
You are correct Matt, Rowland Aeris is driven by a large FPGA which performes a variety of master functions, including FIFO jitter elimination and control of a 24-bit DAC module.
I have no information about what a hypothetical Aeris FPGA firmware update might achieve... Meantime, the best way to use Aeris is to feed it through SPDIF... Aeris performance is optimized through its transformer-coupled SPDIF coax input, ideally fed from a transformer-coupled source, such as the Bryston BDP1 or BDP-2 music servers.
Purely conjectural on my part, sound may be further enhanced by the use of an SSD as a storage medium, to eliminate jitter caused by inter-sector disk head seek delays.
G.
Admittedly, in the end the above does not imply that you would necessarily prefer Aeris over OverDrive or other DAC... DAC preference is, very much like paraphrasing female beauty, in the... ears of the beholder *grins!*
G |
Great thread. The only problem is the ODSE is made by one man at his time table.
Basically he takes the money up front.
He told me when I ordered (a different item than the ODSE) that he would build my unit when he has enough orders to make several in a row. When I tried to persuade him to build mine quicker, he said it was summer time and he was not going to be tied to a schedule.
Now Matt you may get special treatment due to this thread, but I didn't.
Just a heads up for you guys that want to part with your $8000.
|
I do not build onesey-twosey on products that cost $200. It would be a waste of my time.
If you order an Overdrive, Off-Ramp or Synchro-Mesh, these orders go into the queue and get built in that order. I don't wait for more orders. Standard wait time on an Overdrive is 2-3 weeks, 1 week on an Off-Ramp and 2-3 days on a Synchro-Mesh
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Steve, Thanks for the reply. My order with you was for the Synchro Mesh that goes for $600.
It took 2 months to get and you wouldn't give me my money back when I wasn't impressed.
|
