A Story about a Defective Signature Platinum

@rsf507 

Thanx for the consideration, but I do not need or want any blows lessened. 

Cartridge had a problem. Cartridge off warranty. Cartridge fixed. End of story, for me anyway.  

To lessen the blow of the OP, since I'll guess based on how long he's been in this hobby he's retired, I'd propose to start a Go Fund ME account. If all who had anything to say in this thread gave $1 then the OP would be made whole. Or MoFi can just send the OP a public apology with a check for $330. 

@cathyboston 

Exactly. I would don your radiation suit. 

@jonderda , @lewm 

The problem has already been adequately described. What I found on removing the cover was a filament lying across the lead out wires of the left channel coil which are tack glued to the body of the magnet on their way back to the pins. The filament was incorporated into the glue. I pulled up the hot wire and removed the filament. As I had removed the back plate and disconnected the lead out wires from the pins. It looked like two of the wires would require splicing which is beyond my capability. Steven has hooked everything back up and says the cartridge sounds "great." We shall see when I get it back in the system. The coils, suspension and cantilever remain unscathed.  

Jonderda, you are now in the unfortunate position of having to do damage control. MoFi is not operating at the same level as it's peers. I fully understand that there are plenty of wacky customers out there but treating us all as if we are wacky is obviously a mistake. I think the service department has to learn to give the customer the benefit of the doubt. The main issue here is a substandard warranty, If you had published it I would not have purchased the cartridge which is why you did not publish it. But, even after the warranty period issues due to faulty materials and workmanship can occur and taking care of these issues is great and inexpensive marketing. In this case I think the problem was manifest all along it just took the right conditions for me to notice it. 

I think you should show your superiors this thread and revamp your system. MoFi can not afford issues like this. It's reputation is already in the dog house. 

Popcorn time!

@cathyboston My posts have not been untoward in any manner about their Sales Policy. Caveat Emptor, is what I promote for the Buyer.

Now Mofi are surfaced, no harm in probing, I am sure future customers will benefit from transparency., and evaluate the Vendors being selected. 

@jonderda Perfect opportunity for you to explain away your Company Policy to add $5k to the typical arrive at the door price for a Cart' and then for the $5K upcharge get a measly 3 MONTHS WARRANTY.

In the guise of being Transparent, why not have a Header on all Cart' Sales

                      3 MONTHS WARRANTY ONLY !!!!!! - BUYER BEWARE    

jonderda

I have just sent @mijostyn an email requesting a phone call to discuss the issue he’s hearing and possible solutions.

Solutions? Have you read the thread? The cartridge has been repaired and is on its way back to the customer.

I thought the OP initially went through his dealer who worked with the Importer MoFi and didn’t get any satisfaction from either. OP please correct if this was not the case.

This thread was forwarded to me and I have just sent @mijostyn an email requesting a phone call to discuss the issue he's hearing and possible solutions. He's absolutely right that a complete rebuild shouldn't be and isn't the only option and that the cartridge should at least be inspected first before we jump to any conclusions. 

Jonathan Derda

MoFi Distribution

Did he or will you tell us what the problem was?  My guess is that it was not what JCarr mentioned; "holes" in the coil insulation causing a coil or the coils to develop an internal short.  Because I don't think that would be repairable.

WOW!! what a charge from VAS, it will cost that much, just to get over the Threshold and join the Backlog at certain Third Party Services.

mijostyn

Steven Leung has fixed the cartridge and it is on the way back to me minus $330.00.

I know you'll report the results. I think you are going to be pleased.

@lewm 

Everyone loves a tragedy. Maybe I can put an end to it. 

Steven Leung has fixed the cartridge and it is on the way back to me minus $330.00. Sure Beats $6000.

Who knew that a thread titled "A Story about a Defective Signature Platinum" would garner 106 responses, and counting?

@cathyboston 

Magic!

Is it suggested then, that all Anna owners don't use such a name any longer for their Cart' that carries the name Anna, or all Anna owners and non-Anna Owners who use the name are to be politely reminded Ortofon don't use that Model Name for Political purposes.

It all comes across as a little confusing, foreign policy is the cause of the hurt, not the National from a Country being given tribute for their talents.

@pindac 

For political reasons Ortofon changed the name of the Anna to the MC Diamond and upgraded the suspension to that used in the Verismo. The MC Diamond is essentially the Verismo with its pants on. I am listening to it right now. Cowboy Junkies, The Trinity Sessions. Magic.

I have offer to experience the Verismo in a home system. 

The owner of the Cart' also has the Ortofon Anna, it is the Ver' that is off the most appeal, as there is a emphasis from Ortofon that is promoting New Damper Technologies being utilised. 

I am wishing the material selection has valuable properties that are enabling a improved sonic and  will have a longer usable life. 

I have seen evidence of numerous dampers on Cart's, some that are recommendable, show damper deterioration has substantially occurred when they are  being overhauled. 

@pindac 

Well, I am running an MC Diamond now and it is very similar to the Verismo and as long as you have a phono stage with a very good signal to noise ratio you can not do much better. It is a bit out of the price range you mentioned but that is sort of like the debt limit we have here in the States. I think you can forget about world peace for a while. History says this is going to get rough. 

I have come to a place with Ortofon where I have been familiarised with their designs from a certain era, in my price point.

I do feel I fully understand the technologies sonic that is produced, in both the valued coil wire types.

Additionally I have also had produced my own Hybrid Ortofon Cart' based on Silver Coil Wire. The spec for the rebuild of this Cart's is listed below.

_______________________________________________________________   

Manual cleaning of generator, nw Ogura cantilever + Ogura Vital SA+ tip, nw Vienna spec WRD, optimal generator alignment.

_______________________________________________________________

The Vienna Spec WRD, is claimed to produce a very similar Bass Note to the Per Windfeld Damper.

I have been present at A/B demo's of the above two Cart's and have had my Cart' demo'd in the Company of both the above Cart's as an A/B comparison.

My evaluation is that all are much of a muchness and very difficult to separate when it comes to details, dynamics and the manifestation of a envelope.

Bass Depth is very similar even though the Aucurum Copper Wire, adds a set of boots to the bottom register and the Silver Coils and Beryllium is more fleet footed but not quite wearing stilettos. The Silver Coils with Sapphire Cantilever and FGS, IS is a very close relative of the Windfeld.

It was my rebuilt Cart' that ended my search for the chance to purchase a Vienna.

Not bad as in Germany where the Market was originally set up for the Vienna, it had been described as Ortofon's best Cart' ever by a selection of those who bought into the limited edition.

I am ready to now listen to their latest generation items and the Verismo is top of the list to experience.

I do see the Titanium used on the Windfeld Ti as an interest, but I can't see it being too much different from what I am already familiar with.

I sense it will be something like my rebuilt Cart' as it is described to me by a person who owned one as coming across as lean, in comparison to the original Windfeld.

If I was invited to be demo'd a Ti, I would not decline, I am not pursuing the experience. 

As said the Umami Blue also has been described in a way that suggests it falls into this section if a sonic as well. This Cart' could prove to be a real Bargain.

I also have the Post Covid Indulgence, to have a owned Cadenza Black to undergo a rebuild to my Spec' as well, when world peace returns this should be able to happen.

If all goes well, this will have the coils directly attached to PC TripleC/EX wire.

EX is the same wire that are substantially expensive when found as a Tag Wire, I have my own ideas to bypass this type of cost.

@daveyf 

All very true. Unfortunately, it is a very significant fault based on common human behavioral traits. I use to give people the benefit of the doubt but you can't do that anymore. Friends and family are more important than ever. 

@rsf507 

The MSL is not as detailed or dynamic as the Lyra Atlas SL or the MC Diamond. That is not to say it is not detailed or dynamic. I listen to all three cartridges regularly on electrostatic speakers ,so I feel very comfortable in that assessment. Another point is that these differences are subtle and in many instances would not be noticed especially with limited exposure. If anyone listens to a cartridge for one song and gives you a full detailed assessment of it's performance they are FOS..

@pindac 

You might want to take a look at the Ortofon Windfeld Ti. It is a fabulous cartridge made by a reputable, well funded manufacturer. It is a neutral, smooth sounding cartridge with superior tracking abilities and arguably the best diamond profile made.

As stated on a few posts in the past, the Mutech Hayabusa, has been reported by an individual who has a extremely High End System, has demo's Cart's with combined values from my math, getting close to $100K+.

I have read up on much of their reports and the Hayabusa has been a Cart' that has impressed them, but as important, is the Cart' suggested to be considered along side the MSL Plat' and Gold on a shortlist.

The Hayabusa can be found cheaper than any of the MSL models referred to in Japan, shipping and Import duties will add to the monies required to purchase.

It looks like the Plat' importer has added a substantial mark up to their purchase price and cut their commitment to inherit a responsibility for the products function substantially as well. In the UK we call this Business Model 'Cut and Run', which pretty much means having the monies of a Customer or Client and leaving them High and Dry whilst holding the Baby.

Due Diligence is always encouraged when looking into a Service Provider.

I am looking at Cart's I can acquire for approx' £4.5K to the door max'.

I hope to get the 1000 hours guideline usage, and have a mid life inspection/cleaning undertaken @ approx' £200, max' cost £4700 @ 1000hrs is £4.70 per hour.

If a retip/refurb is required at 1000 hours at approx' £450 and a mid life clean is £200.

The Cart' cost for 2000 Hours of usage is at a max' £5350, or £2.60 per usage hour. The cost starts to be a Bargain at this stage, in comparison to some other cart's that can't offer the same at the hourly usage rate.

Have a second refurb, and I am sure the hourly usage will be close to £2.

I genuinely expect more usage hours than 1000 as a result of usage on well cared for Vinyl.

Also I don't see a refurb from a third party service changing the sonic of the Cart' in any way, apart from refreshing it. A good mid life clean does that as well, the crud build up under the hood substantially inhibits the Cart's function. Let the Crud build up on a Cart' that has been slowly getting to a 1000 hours usage, and I will suggest the Cart' is almost trudging through the mud in Wellies. 

@daveyf +1 

@mijostyn I've heard the MSL Platinum Sig and I would never say it's easy going. Each time I've heard it I was wowed, it was dynamic and so detailed and lively like a real concert. I personally can't afford one but if I had the resources it would be at the top of my list. Although based on this thread I would have yo think twice about one. Waiting to hear what Steve has to say was the issue regarding it.

@mijostyn   Should you had to have the attitude in your statement " as always it is consumer beware"?? With a company like MD and Jim Davis, based on just their non-disclosure digital step debacle, it is clear that you needed to. This industry seems to need a little cleaning of the house as far as the many bad actors that seem to inhabit it, IMHO.

@pindac 

The Platinum is a great cartridge. It is very easy going, smooth and quiet. It's high output makes it a shoe in with most phono stages. It does not have quit the detail, dynamics or spatial resolution of the Atlas SL or the MC Diamond. 

@cleeds 

I never get upset and always use a polite diplomatic manner. If I do not like the results I never use that entity again and start posts like this. Another thing is "I do not care about the price of the cartridge. Someone buying  a $500 cartridge should be treated exactly the same. All people are in business to make money. Some only care about the money others care about having happy customers and their reputation. Music Direct is an example of the former, Soundsmith and Clearaudio the latter. As always it is consumer beware. I should have checked the warranty before buying the cartridge. 

I still believe a impartial assessment is very valuable, and VAS has all the credentials to carry that out.

The worst case might be the manufacturer might be keen to prove any findings that reflects  uncomfortably on their manufacture. 

Forums do steer individuals toward or away from products. 

I might be the only member on this forum, after seeing this thread, who remains keen to receive a demo' of a MSL Plat'. 

whart

The ideal response would be ... Would you mind sending it to us for inspection ... Then see where things are, and maybe cut the guy a break on another specimen (if he wanted that) or something else.

Exactly. There's no way to know what's going on here without an inspection and the distributor/importer and manufacturer are the best qualified to do that.

... if there was a defect in the wire or manufacture, wouldn't the manufacturer want to know about that too?

Yes, of course. But @mijostyn recently acknowledged this:

I cut loose with a four letter word somebody did not like. If you were to spend $11K on a cartridge and it did this and you were handled in the way I was I think you would be upset ...

That may explain the treatment he received, at least in part. There's little value in offering a customer accommodation if he won't be pleased with the result.

@whart There has been a suggestion that certain parts in the make up of a Cart' are given a lifetime warranty, hence my lengthy description about how this would be quite a offer, especially with what a manufacturer knows, and the evidence that can be seen of a Cart's deterioration. 

Additionally, my contributions have been to encourage a hold off on the contempt being expressed to a supplier, prior to the outcome of a investigation. At this stage it does not matter who does the investigation to discover the fault, the skill and experience about such matters is the concern. VAS is more than capable to carry out this assessment. 

.Making the per hour costings known, is a good practice for all to utilise as a number crunch. 

In my view the Distributor should have offered to have the fault evaluated by the factory. If it was a manufacturing fault - then they should come to the party. If they felt it was a user issue then they could stand by their warranty.

If I was the manufacturer and a cartridge was defective I would want to know what the issue was.

As far as cost goes, if the cartridge retails for $11k, then it probably cost less than $6k ex the factory, so in the remedy offered the distributor is not offering any contribution to @mijostyn 's loss. On the other hand we don't know if the original purchase included any discount.

I have had multiple top end bespoke cartridges fully rebuilt ( not re-tipped ) by the manufacturer at considerably less than the $6k quoted.

@lewm 

The upgrade bearings are doing fine so far. The 997.1 was the last car with that design. It came with a much larger Intermediate shaft bearing. The 997.2 onwards do not use intermediate shafts. This means the heads, instead of being identical are mirror images of each other. The cars with intermediate shafts sound different and much more in keeping with the classic character of 911s. Porsche has always treated me well. 

@pindac ,

I cut loose with a four letter word somebody did not like. If you were to spend $11K on a cartridge and it did this and you were handled in the way I was I think you would be upset to say the least. With the exception of the diamond and cantilever cartridges are really very simple and quite tough. The Umami Red is the one to go for. 

@whart 

Exactly, I started this thread to warn others of the limited warranty on these cartridges and the corporate nature of Music Direct and MoFi. The grape vine will do the rest.  Steven has been ace so far. All I expect is a manufacturer to take care of problems that are obviously do to a manufacturing defect within a reasonable period of time. 

@rsf507 

I have direct experience with Soundsmith and Soundsmith cartridges are wonderful and the service is excellent. 

@pindac- I don’t think @mijostyn is asking for a lifetime warranty. I’ve had stuff happen over the years with product defects. The ideal response would be-- gee, that’s too bad. Would you mind sending it to us for inspection-- and if the distributor isn’t capable of doing the inspection, get permission from the customer to send it back to the manufacturer. (I reckon DHL Express or Priority Japan might cost 50 dollars US, maybe a little more). Then see where things are, and maybe cut the guy a break on another specimen (if he wanted that) or something else. An inspection should also reveal any user mishandling causing the problem--not that I'm suggesting that is the case here. It's simply good business and if there was a defect in the wire or manufacture, wouldn't the manufacturer want to know about that too?

That, in my experience, is how you maintain goodwill. Instead, we have an unhappy camper, a thread which has roused peoples’ ire-- there is something about vicarious rage at a third party that is just so easy, and negatives about a product and its US distributor, which is never good for bidness.

I’m very curious to learn what Steve Leung says once he gets to it and hoping for the best.

Very very recently, I visited one of my favourite 'dirty little secret' sites.

By that, I mean 'dirty little secrets' found under the hood of Cart's.

The witnessing how fragile a Cart' is and how it is doomed from day one, is a great leveller and certainly lifts the lid on any false ideas touted that a Cart' is invincible and going to do wonders. 

A Cart's is a tool that has no defense against the ambient environment or the guardian looking after it.

In my most recent observations under the hood of Cart's, I was to learn how light alone is a accelerant to deterioration of a Cart' (Dampers disintegrating on one side where light has been able to penetrate and the remaining material appearing quite grainy in make up), what I assume is a moisture damage has been seen to be extremely detrimental (Verdigris Coated Coils), coils over time seemingly implode if the ambient condition are the catalyst (Coils seeming fracture and fall away).

If one wants a Cart' to deliver in a Certain way, the materials selected have to be able to deliver the required function. The selection of materials are not with too much consideration for how they will perform in the field after five years of being exposed to the Non- Manufacture and Packaging Environment, the selection of materials are in my presumption, selected to be able to survive a Warranty period and a usage life of approx' 1000 hours at a time line determined by the manufacturer, not by the end user. 

I'm sure the Manufacturer is aware that certain end users will extend their attaining 1000 hours beyond the timeline the design has allowed for. I also feel confident the manufacturer has chose robust materials that will offer a extended service, where the assembly of parts remain near optimised for a extended period.

The idea any part used for the assembly of a Cart' should be a part with a lifetime warranty is pure fantasy.

It is no different to asking for a lifetime Warranty on a Porsche Set of Boots or any Car Tyre, good luck with that one. 

If one is into their owned Vinyl LP as a Source Material that is to be replayed. There is a vital ancillary required to be used to create the replay of the Source Material, which is by its very make up, a Sacrificial Ancillary, that is the realisation that is regularly overlooked.

Too often all that is seen is the fantastical world of what such an ancillary is going to bring and who breathed on it at the time of its creation. The Power of Marketing is very good at concealing the realities, especially the realities that really are worthwhile considering.     

@karl desch, VAS works quick, as the Cart' arrives at his premises today.

Are you in direct communication with VAS on this matter. as there seems to be a knowledge of the cause of the fault addressed in your post. 

The findings of VAS are welcomed to be shared, speculation on such a sensitive matter, is not really appropriate. 

The only two things that are seeming accurate at present are $11K and 3 Months Warranty, even the usage of 75 hours might not be on the money. 

A Post has already been pulled for an unknown reason, maybe the content was a little too much, I missed the chance to read it properly. 

Even though the opening suggested I needed $11K to have a similar experience to the OP, which I am struggling with as being a correct assumption from the OP. 

The Umami Blue, is a Cart' that is growing in user support, and certainly has created the idea in my thoughts, that it will sit in well with a Ortofon Model, I am attracted to, especially as the Blue is approx' 2/3's cheaper. 

It would be nice if the warranty was longer than 90 days.  Especially for the subtle defect that @mijostyn detected. This is a defect in the cartridge coils, not something that the owner did to the cartridge. Should be a lifetime warranty for certain functional aspects that exclude stylus and suspension wear and tear. 

What about SoundSmith cartridges? Made in USA, great customer support and rebuilds at a fraction of original price. 

Yes, for a period of time  Porsche replaced some engines after the problem became a public disgrace. Replacing the bearing is not a panacea, because the problem is in the design itself. A few US based companies made replacements with a different design, less likely to fail. I don’t know how that worked out.  Anyway high end car companies are not paragons of virtue when it comes to customer relations.

@daveyf , 

I agree but all dealers are not like that. Some are.

@lewm 

Porsche replaced a lot of those engines even after the warranty ended. They sent letters to the owners of those cars telling them to get the intermediate shaft bearing replaced because in a few months they were not going to support it anymore. The suits come after. 996's are cheap because their ass is not fat enough and they have stupid looking headlights. However, the turbo version has a fantastic engine and is a steal if you can find one. I own a 17 year old Porsche. What is wrong with that? You jealous?

@pindac 

So far so good. Steven has been very responsive. The cartridge arrives at his shop today.  The lesson is that I should have looked at the warranty before buying it. That would have killed the sale. I have to say that the Hana Umami Red looks like an excellent cartridge for the money as does the Mutech. 

@rsf507  The Cart' can be found on the From Japan shopping portal.

There are other portals that can be used, but I have been loyal to FJ. 

My investigations  have discovered. Mutech Hayabusa to be a serious consideration, when MSL Plat' or Gold are off interest.

@mijostyn has been quite vociferous in the idea not to use support for a Cart', where the manufacturer is not involved.

The recent reversal on such a stand is quite interesting. 

I do hope the VAS Service gains one more supporter. 

@pindac ​I do not need to Spend $11K on a MSL Signature, hence it is one that is on a shortlist to experience in use. I expect to be able to have one at the door, for approx' £4K+

Can you share where such deals are?​​​​​​

With the OP’s example, unfortunately his cartridge was one year old, even though it had only 75 hours of usage. The problem is that this same circumstance would apparently have occurred even if his cartridge was only three months and one day old...as the manufacture is only standing by a three month warranty! Personally, I think such a short warranty is unreasonable on a cartridge that not only costs $11K, but also gives the dealer/distributor such a large mark up. IMHO, for them to offer some kind of accommodation would seem to be appropriate.

I once had an issue with a Horse I owned.

I received all the usual help, and in the end got the issue resolved at a cost.

The individual who resolved the concerning issue, made it clear.

"Some Lessons in Life are coming with a hefty price to pay"

Ouch! I paid up and absorbed everything I could from the experience to be preventative for the future.

As for @mijostyn, "Some Lessons in Life are coming with a hefty price to pay"

What is not known is if the lesson is about buying into Cart's at a US price that can be found as an Import for two thirds less, or is the lesson one that is based on learning that snobbery can hurt at times.

I do not need to Spend $11K on a MSL Signature, hence it is one that is on a shortlist to experience in use. I expect to be able to have one at the door, for approx' £4K+. Possibly even a VAS overhauled one with 75 hours on it for £2K.   

Maybe the lesson to be learned is that when looking at the assembly of a Cart' under a microscope, as the OP claims to do, the same scrutiny would be best practice for the warranty being offered as well.     

Never miss an opportunity to remind us you own a Porsche.

Porsche the company is not the best brand to bring up in a discussion of customer relations and customer support.  You must know about the notorious Intermediate Shaft Bearing used on type 996 Porsches from 1999 to 2006 and thereafter in 997s possibly up to 2011 (it's a bit unclear to me exactly when the factory fixed the underlying problem), which part can fail by emitting iron filings into the oil supply and thereby kill the entire engine in only a few thousand miles, albeit that rarely happened.  But more than a few persons had to replace low mileage engines at their own cost until the factory finally caved in and after many law suits.  Why 996s are so relatively cheap to this day.

I think the idea is that Mijostyn is probably a long time customer, and if that is the case, then he has purchased many tens of thousands of dollars from this same vendor.  Also, he is reputable.  Given all those things, the consensus seems to be that he was owed some sort of consideration by the dealer or distributor, despite the fact that the cartridge is out of warranty.  There are many other ways this could have been handled wherein Mijostyn would not get the benefit of a full warranty but would get at least something other than a rebuff. You can argue this either way.

I am still lost.

Is there Cart's being sold that offer a Manufacturers Warranty that extends beyond one year?

The Cart' is clearly defined as being one year old, what makes this a special case?.

I don't quite see how the Three Month Warranty and the Supplier being contacted 9 Months outside of the Warranty Period, puts them in the position, where rile is being expressed by individuals not effected in any way by this incident. 

In this case, with the Cart' being pulled from usage, the Cart' at present has been approx' $150 per hour to use (75 x $150 = $11Kish)..

If the treatment from VAS is accepted by the OP and a 1000 hours of Usage is achieved, that will come in at approx' $9.75 per hour of usage, bringing the original purchase price and usage cost per hour closely aligned. Which as an outsider looking in, and one who suggests Cart's are sent periodically into a Third Party Service for a Inspection and Clean, the $9.75 per hour surely looks like a win win outcome.

If the OP rejects the VAS work, as a result of inherent prejudices for this type of service handling Cart's built by Japanese Masters of the Phono Cartridge and decides to sell the Cart' for approx' $3K and the new owner gets the 1000 hours usage from it, then that is a steal.

A friend got a Audio Note IO Cart' at a real bargain basement price, and a thorough styli clean resolved all issues reported with the Cart'. The Cart' is now after many hours of usage rebuilt by AN. The Cart' cost and rebuild cost are still less that the present market value for the low hours rebuilt Cart'.   

Maybe!, if Cart's are being purchased at prices that are going to be approx' $3-$15 an hour to use, if the 1000 hours usage life is to be the guideline, then a extended Warranty to cover wear and tear damages within a few year period of ownership would be nice as an option from the supplier, as not many Cart's put into service will come close to the 1000 Hours in the first year of usage, or in some cases not for quite a few years.

@daveyf 

While I agree that a good dealer will try to ease the pain by making a deal on another cartridge. The dealer does not set the warranty and once you are dealing with a huge bureaucracy it is like talking to a brick wall. It is much easier dealing with smallish companies like Musical Surroundings. They are great. The Hana Umami Red is looking better by the minute. I have never heard one of the more expensive Clearaudio cartridges. The Da Vinci is a possibility.