Agree wholeheartedly with wcfeil. It'd be difficult to find a more irrelevant factor in my opinion than lack of an XLR output and its effect on component accuracy.
Charles
Charles
A DAC that crushes price vs. performance ratio
I felt strongly that I wanted to inform the Gon members about a new DAC that ranks with the very best on the market regarding performance, but costs around $2,000.00. The Lab12 DAC1 SE was compared to three reference level DACS that retail for over $12.000.00 in my review for hometheaterreview.com and was at least on the same level sonicly, if not better. This DAC from Greece is not just "good for the money" but competes with virtually anything on the market regardless of price!
For all the details about the Lab12 DAC1 SE performance and what other DACS it was compared to take a look at the review. If you are shopping/looking for a new digital front end to drive your system, you owe it to yourself to check this DAC out, unless you like to spend tons of more $ without getting better performance.
For all the details about the Lab12 DAC1 SE performance and what other DACS it was compared to take a look at the review. If you are shopping/looking for a new digital front end to drive your system, you owe it to yourself to check this DAC out, unless you like to spend tons of more $ without getting better performance.
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If you are just looking for a dac that measure flat you can get a Topping dac for a couple hundred bucks new . If you want a dac that boosts frequencies there are dozens of " Audiophile" dacs on the market to choose from . Unfortunately you will have to try them all to see what frequency boosts go good with your system . I prefer to go neutral on the dac and go from there as far as adding colorations I prefer . |
To add to the foregoing comments, it’s worth noting that the DAC uses eight of the TDA1543 d/a converter chips (each of which can handle two channels), in "a complex parallel configuration." And eight chips are used even though the DAC only provides single-ended outputs, with just one output signal having to be generated for each of the two channels. Assuming good design, that will result in considerably better performance than if only one chip was used. Regards, -- Al |
Hi Al, That’s what I had read, and I know that this configuration has been used in the past to some extent, (oppo I think) and that’s one of the things that got me excited about it. I’ll admit to being very enthusiastic about non-oversampling DACs in general. They just sound so much more natural than the other DACs I’ve owned and heard. |
I agree with the comments in regard to the cost of the chips in the DAC under discussion. The cost of the chips isn’t a predictor of how the DAC will sound as a finished product. IMHO too much attention is placed on the chips to begin with. I’d summit that individually I/V conversion, analog output stage and quality of the power supply are at the very least as important. Collectively these three factors are I believe far more important in determining sound quality of a DAC. I’m just a big believer in design, integration and implementation as being more impactful than isolating the contributions of the chosen chip set. I honestly feel that power supply quality tends to be underappreciated in general when discussing audio components. Charles |
I agree with Charles' comment as well. I would add that the knowledge and experience that goes into the design of the printed circuit board itself can make a big difference in the performance of a DAC. How signals, power, and grounds are routed and distributed within the circuit board, and also how power is "decoupled" (i.e., filtered) immediately adjacent to all of the critical chips, are all hugely important in a DAC design. Best regards, -- Al |
https://www.ebay.com/itm/DAC-TDA1543-NOS-8-0-DIR9001-tube-6DJ8-6922-/321993586576?_mwBanner=1&nm... Here you have the circuit board,just different caps output stage close to tube.The construction is from a china salesman. |
http://avmentor.gr/reviews/lab12_dac1_se_1.htm Just take a look at this. |
Listen to CharlesDAD and Almarg. They both have the experience. The #1 issue with digital playback is jitter. The #2 issue is digital filtering. When you consider NOS DAC based on these older chips, you are minimizing the digital filtering problem. The problem with older chips like this is that you will sacrifice a bit of speed, so transients/leading edges may not be as live as a newer D/A chip. They deliver a very analog sound though. The best of both worlds is a chip that you can tune the digital filtering and it is newer so it's faster. If you can find a DAC that has these attributes, I recommend that one. I also don't like to see a DAC with built-in reclocker on the S/PDIF inputs. This limits the ability to get better sound by applying lower jitter external sources as they become available. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
If you’re an ordinary guy, like myself, and not an electrical engineer, this can really become confusing and intimidating. This is something that we didn’t have to deal with way back when. I was reading a review of a DAC last night, and I was honestly lost with 90% of the explanation of the piece technically. So, Steve N., can you comment on the design of the Holo Spring Kitsune as compared to the Lab 12 regarding jitter/filtering? Other opinions are welcome as well. Thanks, John |
Roxy54, I do understand the appeal of NOS and R2R chips and ladder topologies. I would just say that there’s more to the "big picture" viewpoint. I haven’t heard the Lab12 DAC SE but have no reason to question Teajay’s enthusiastic review. A friend let me borrow his Holo Springs level III DAC so I could hear it in my system. As you know it is NOS and R2R discrete resistor ladder design. It was actually a very good sounding DAC in my 300b SET/DHT Line stage based system. In direct comparison to my Yamamoto YDA O1a DAC we felt that both were organic in nature, the Yamamoto was more ’alive, extended and dynamic in presentation . In reality more emotionally involving. The Yamamoto is delta sigma(Texas Instruments 1794 chip) and over samples 8x (but with minimal digital filtering) no NFB or OP-amps. My only point is that you really have to listen to these DACs to judge their sound quality. Delta sigma versus R2R is only part of the story and I don’t believe that one can be declared superior to the other. I hope you do get to hear the Lab 12 DAC SE in your system. Best of luck to you. Charles |
Based on specs and forum buzz, the $2.5K ifi Pro iDSD DAC looks like a potential giant-killer. Any experience with this one? It has some features that appeal to me, such as a 10mhz master clock input and the ability to take power from an external 12Vdc LPS. (I already have an SRS PERF10 and a Hynes SR7 for this purpose.) |
Charles, Thanks, and I hear what you're saying loud and clear. I guess I'm not really being practical about this. I just want to get a DAC that is better than the one that I have without much bother, because I can't try either before I buy them. I have actually loved my ANK 2.1 for several years now, but felt that it was time to take the next step up. I guess nothing is that easy unless I stay with ANK, and really know what to expect, although I had an email exchange with Terry (Teajay) today, and was heartened to hear from him that he was familiar with some upper end Audio Note DACs, and found the Lab 12 superior. |
Roxy54, I wasn’t trying to discourage you at all regarding the Lab 12 DAC. Quite the contrary. I just decided to comment because of you mentioning the Holo Springs which I had direct experience with. I say go forward with your plans to acquire that Labs 12 DAC it could turn out to be fantastic in your system. Charles |
I don’t know what it is but I don’t like Audio Note equipment (post Kondo-san), except for the AN-E speakers and their DACs. Somehow they got that right, my opinion of course. That being said I have used the Lessloss DAC 2004 MkII now for 12 years. It oversamples and I’ve tried the NOS DACs too, but this one has stayed. The only other DAC I enjoyed as much was the original Monarchy Audio M-24 referred to me by Lynn Olson and Thom Mackris (Galbier Design). If an analog and turntable manufacturer likes a DAC you take notice. Okay so I’m looking for another DAC. I use a CEC transport slaved to the Lessloss in a small bedroom system. I have a NOS DAC I now use temporarily in my main system. Somewhat special, but perhaps not the end game. The two DAC manufacturers that have caught my attention so far are Metrum and Denafrips. I can tell you right now as an analog tape and vinyl guy I am not pulling the trigger on either, but it is fun to look. @roxy54 - sometimes the best DAC is the one you are currently listening to. I happen to think you have an excellent DAC. |
Charles, I know you too well...I know that you weren't trying to discourage me. As I said; I am being a little lazy and impractical. Many years ago now, John Rutan introduced me to my first AN DAC, the Zero something, can't remember exactly, but it was their lowest model and it had the miniature tubes that were soldered in. It was a revelation and I kept it for years. When I was finally ready, I had the ANK 2.1 built for me and again, it was a happy revelation. You are correct clio09, it is a good piece. I know of course, and I can sometimes imagine while listening, that there is room for improvement, but it is so natural and believable to my ears that I know the designer was on the right track. I'm sure that I would probably be happy with several of these fine DACs, but I'd better slow down and think a bit. |
roxy54 said..."If you’re an ordinary guy, like myself, and not an electrical engineer, this can really become confusing and intimidating. This is something that we didn’t have to deal with way back when. I was reading a review of a DAC last night, and I was honestly lost with 90% of the explanation of the piece technically." I agree...I think when there is not much else to say about a product under review..technobabble is used for fill. It can be helpful at times, but does take away from the actual point of reading a good review...which should be more about 'quality of sound' first and jargon latter..if at all. |
I am late to this discussion as I wasn't aware of it until today or I would have joined it much earlier. I may be wrong but I think Teejay is an audiophile first and a critic second. As an audiophile he enjoys sharing his insights on gear that punches well above it's price point. As a critic, he has access to a lot more equipment then most of us do. He was spot on with the Tekton Design speakers so when he raves about something ; I listen. As for retailers joining discussions, I have no problem with them contributing as long as they state that they sell audio gear and if a discussion is about a product they sell, they should inform us. I have seen numerous very informative postings by retailers and look forward to reading more in the future. |
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simna here's his response from earlier within this thread to that question " All the details regarding how the DAC sounded/performed presented in the review apply to Lab12 with the stock tubes and the Siemens. 3) Yes, with the Siemens you get a little more of an "organic" sound then with the stock tubes, but either way the DAC sounds wonderful." simna, what are your impressions of this DAC with the stock tubes? |
@ facten Hej I have compared Lab12 with my present DAC, Hegel HD12, which was crushed in every respect. Except for on thing; ”edge”. Bad productions will gain from the ”politeness” in Lab12 but I feel that rough (ment to be ”dirty sounding”) rock and blues records sounds like they lack a little ”edge” (don’t know the correct expression in English, hope you understand). They don`t sound as ”dirty” as I expert them to. Good recordings sounds very good, but even there I can feel that I lack a little ”edge”. I don`t know how many hours the unit has got to burn in. Maybe the sound will change after some more hours, but I will be surprised if the sound will ”turn harder”. For the record; I have also compared Lab12 with Line Magnetic, CD-player, LM-515. LM-515 sounded too sweet, too bass heavy, veiled and with much less ”air” between the instruments. So (IMHO) the Lab12 DAC1 SE sounds homogeneous and well balanced, warm (not negatively warm), musical (makes me wanna keep on listening), big airy soundstage, but is a little too ”polite”. My listening was made with my BeyerDynamic T1 headphones and Feliks Audio Elise headphone amp (tubes, upgraded). Kimber Silver Streak between DAC/CD-player and headphone amp. You have to excuse my bad English. Sorry. |
If my take is correct about simna's experience with the Lab 12, "makes me wanna keep listening", I think it's mainly a thumbs up perspective. I do not experience a loss of leading edge focus, which I think simna means when he refers to "edge" on certain music. A lot of digital sounds somewhat "hard" because the leading edge of the harmonic is "razor sharp" compared to a more natural presentation that listeners often refer to as having an analog quality. Think metal/ceramic vs silk dome tweeters. However, my hunch is that if he tube rolled in brands like Mazda/Telefunken/Seimens he would get more of a "harder" sound that he is looking for. Redphu72, if you contact Mike Kay, Audio Archon, he can provide you the information you are seeking. He is the North American retailer for Lab 12 gear.. |
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Hey simna, To answer your two questions: 1) As I stated in my review when you go from the stock tube to something like the NOS CCA Siemens tube you get across the sonic board improvement (transparency, soundstaging/air around instruments, improved tonality/color density, dynamics and more liquidity/ease). 2) I use the term "organic" to mean that that piece of gear, or and overall system, sounds less like "mechanical/electric" device and more like the illusion of music. I also use the term "HiFi-ish" in the same breath, meaning it sounds like a great sound system, but not like natural music. |
Language is always difficult. And the language descriptors used in hi-end audio is a lexicon dating back to at least J. Gordon Holt of Stereophile days. I seem to recall having or seeing such a compilation back in the 1980’s. Perhaps @teajay has seen such a compilation, too. @teajay adequately addressed a question I asked about the sonic differences of the stock tube and the exchanged Siemens tube in the DAC of his review. It sounds like a DAC worth auditioning. |
I enjoyed teejay’s review as I’m considering DACs in the $2K range. But I’m confused. Is this the same DAC reviewed in monoandstereo 5 years ago (2013)? https://www.monoandstereo.com/2013/04/lab12-dac1-special-edition-test-and.html |
Hey keithtexas, I was the first American reviewer to have the fun to review the Lab12-SE DAC. There were a few, including the monoandstereo piece, European reviews that were raves about the DACs performance. I believe that Lab12 has done subtle changes since the DAC got on the market. However, you would have to contact them for the details on this. |
