$1k portable DAC for $300k setup ?
( iFi iDSD Diablo )
https://www.stereophile.com/content/lemay-audio-room
A DAC that crushes price vs. performance ratio
I felt strongly that I wanted to inform the Gon members about a new DAC that ranks with the very best on the market regarding performance, but costs around $2,000.00. The Lab12 DAC1 SE was compared to three reference level DACS that retail for over $12.000.00 in my review for hometheaterreview.com and was at least on the same level sonicly, if not better. This DAC from Greece is not just "good for the money" but competes with virtually anything on the market regardless of price!
For all the details about the Lab12 DAC1 SE performance and what other DACS it was compared to take a look at the review. If you are shopping/looking for a new digital front end to drive your system, you owe it to yourself to check this DAC out, unless you like to spend tons of more $ without getting better performance.
For all the details about the Lab12 DAC1 SE performance and what other DACS it was compared to take a look at the review. If you are shopping/looking for a new digital front end to drive your system, you owe it to yourself to check this DAC out, unless you like to spend tons of more $ without getting better performance.
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Very happy with my Oyaide Class S and I prefer a slight bright presentation because I do listen to orchestral and metal. I am close to acquire a brand new Integre4 MKII, I think it would be a killer combo. I've heard the Lab12 Dac1 with Lab12 Pre1 and Suara, don't think anything else comes close to it at their price point. |
I have a 1.5 Meter Audioquest Coffee , It is a little laid back and Not at all Bright and has a Deep & wide soundstage. PM me |
This ref version with the old chips is quite tasty…more lifelike than any other DAC I have heard which isn’t a ton...it is no slouch. @auroravengeance don’t forget to upgrade the fuse big difference! QSA yellow, SR purple to name a couple. I discovered a wonderful Chinese graphene/crystals fuse for a song on Aliexpress if you don’t mind buying from them. As good or better than the QSA yellow to me. |
@jjss49 Not sure how the older SE model sounded, but at least after acquiring this Dac1 Reference I no longer have the urge to upgrade my DAC even if I have the money to upgrade to more expensive DACs like for example Weiss DAC-502 MKII. But it seems like this DAC is sensitive to cabling though. I suspect those who did not really enjoy this DAC did not explore different cablings. The Oyaide Class S USB I mentioned above seemed to work well with this. I also gained performance increase with a decent power cord. I use Real Cable Citrine with this DAC and it seems like a good match. |
@auroravengeance good to hear you found your solution. The Oyaide USB sounds like a good cable. I use an Audioquest Coffee I picked up used and am happy as well. Enjoy your DAC! |
I did not change the tubes in my DAC. But last time I used a Furutech ADL USB cable to connect my desktop to the USB input of the DAC and did find it a tad too bright. I then connected my desktop to a Singxer SU1 DDC and used it to connect to the coaxial input of the DAC, the sound was decidedly more pleasing and less bright. I bought an Oyaide Neo Class S USB cable, tested it both direct USB and with the Singxer. The Oyaide sounded really good with direct USB, smooth, just a touch brighter than with DDC/Coaxial but with better soundstage and imaging. Ditched the Singxer and used only USB cable now. So, the quality of the USB cable did matter in my case. |
i have found that old stock tungsram tubes from the hungary plant are very very close to mazda/adzams sonically, and while not cheap, are not nosebleed pricey like remaining mazda’s these days... they are very good, but not better than siemens/philips of the day... they are super expensive more due to their rarity |
@macdude they can be listed as RT, RTC, Phillips, adzcom as well and will have the french factory code etched on glass similar to Amperex. Brent Jesse has them in stock under Mazda french brand. They are $$$ Good luck |
@tksteingraber Thanks for the tube rolling tips. I will check out the Dario miniwatt tubes. |
@macdude I have rolled tubes in my Lab12 ref dac and it has made a difference. In my case it wasn’t because it was too bright. The stock EH tubes just didn’t show what the dac was capable of. I ended up with french made Dario Miniwatt (Philips) E188CC as my favorite but the Amperex Bugle Boy 6DJ8’ s also sound excellent and are easier/less expensive to buy. Siemens E88CC were good but not as warm and heading towards being on the bright side. I will be trying some Russian 6H23n V rockets for fun since Lab12 designs their equipment around russian tubes. Mine is playing through a Raven Blackhawk now which is a pretty warm amp….i do love the sound of this dac…good luck with it all. |
@oddiofyl @auroravengeance I had a chance to demo the Lab12 dac ref. The colorful tonality and midrange was gorgeous, but it was too bright in my system. I wonder if changing the tubes would help? |
The first review was just posted for the new Mystique X SE DAC in Audiophilia. The reviewer used to own a Mystique EVO Pro as his reference DAC but he was to taken by the new Mystique X SE he sold his EVO Pro and bought the demo unit. Needless to say he awarded the X SE Star Component.. More reviews and awards should be posting over the next few months :^) https://www.audiophilia.com/reviews/2022/8/13/608mtkw85c1oncpqf68o9b80nng10b |
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Does it compete with $10k DACs. ? I don't know the answer to that but it definitely has a unique presentation. So many songs that were tough to listen to are a lot better with this DAC, it's smooth and very forgiving to poor recordings. It has a great bottom end, drums and bass guitar have real delineation and texture . With great recordings it sounds fantastic. Sounds "bigger" than the DAC it replaced . Imaging goes way beyond the speaker boxes. This DAC is a good example of something that measures worse than the DAC it replaced but for whatever reason sounds much better. |
@teajay I forgot to mention that one of the reviewers of the Lab12 Dac1 SE said there was no anti jitter circuitry after the inputs. I can’t verify that but nevertheless I put a iFi spdif iPurifier at the input end of the Bluejeans coax. Subject to my own bias I felt there was more ‘air’, better leading edges and sustain. It seemed reproduction was more ‘organised’ and at the same time more relaxed. More ‘body’ and timbres. I have not removed the iPurifier to verify my impressions as I suffer discomfort from osteoarthritis and tend to avoid crouching at the installation, hence my qualification at the outset. Maybe you might acquire a iFi spdif iPurifier and if so report if you experience benefit and if so how it might affect your comparisons. Regarding tubes I already have the necessary converter and seven different NOS tubes two of which are Western Electric 396A, the rest being 2 GE 5670 5-Star, CBS, Raytheon, and Tung-Sol. I had these for experimentation with an iFi iTube. I’m encouraged by your comments and will experiment fairly soon starting with the WE396A. |
@teajay I have the Lab12 Dac1 Special Edition and Lab12 Gordian since last May, and the Lab12 Integre4 Amplifier with the KT150 output tubes since March. Speakers are Audium Comp 7 passive. Streaming Qobuz Studio via a Bluesound Node 2i as streamer only to the Lab12 Dac1 SE via coax. Works great and absolutely no issues. Thank you for your review of the Lab12 Dac1 SE and more recently the MHDT Orchid. Is there a possibility you will compare the just released Lab12 Dac1 Reference to the Special Edition version and the MHDT Orchid? That would be of real interest to me. Thanks again. |
Teajay, Since your review is out now and because this thread has served its purpose to those wanting info about the Lab12 DAC, I would kill this thread. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/why-do-members-hijack-threads |
What a spirited discussion, can't ask for anything more than that. And, it appears that most of you providing your inputs punch way above your weight, and i assure you i mean that on a positive note. Everyones knowledge or IQ about these subjects pretty much astounds me. Without one another the outcomes could be less a less accurate outcome. The scales of audiophile-ness seemed to have settled this difference as, no harm no foul. The reviewer had an excellent point in that he "guaranteed" I would like the Lab 12 more so than the Callia so in short he put his word and credibility on the line, we can't fault him for that. In fact, it is probably more than others would consider doing. |
Oufff... I am happy like in heaven with a 100 bucks dac nos...Fortunetaly... By the way i dont read specs. only to choose some piece of gear... I listen with my ears; the less scientific mind are sometimes, paradoxically or perhaps not so, the so called by themselves "scientist" , especially in this hobby... |
Okay, mr don here, this was a great thread abounding on the merits/demerits of DAC's and specifically the Lab 12 Dac1. Let me paste the response from Lab 12 themselves that I received Monday in the AM to clear up a small matter about this little marvel that stole my heart (even though we never kissed). Per Lab 12: Please be informed that our dac1 SE, had from the beginning the below mentioned specifications (http://www.lab12.gr/dac1). Nevertheless, please be informed that dac1 SE is currently out of production. We are planning on releasing a new DAC based on the same philosophy and core as dac1 SE, clearly upgraded though. However, there isn’t a certain timeframe that we can inform you about at the moment. If you are really interest in dac1 SE, maybe you can refer to our Canadian distributor to check if he has some units on stock. You can find the contact details of our official distributors worldwide in the following link http://www.lab12.gr/dealers mrdon) So, it would seem we are in for an improved Lab 12 possibly before it even got off the production floor so to speak. The review by Terry London was completed in Sept./Nov 2018. This thread started in 9-2018 so, it could be possible that due to the critique or quick attention to bring out the flaws in this DAC could have caused the "let me start over" action on the manufacturer's part. Couldn't say for sure but we could be in for a real treat if we are patient.. Comments welcomed... |
That makes sense...fifteen years ago jitter was still a problem, and the asynchronous designs like early Gordon Rankin designs were all the rage. is jitter still an issue with the Phillips chipsets, or is it just that the source components have largely eliminated this as a factor, or that reclocking approaches solve for errors originated at the source? |
@davehg Tubes are where you can’t go off measurements, as it’s performsnce is influenced by the impedance of the speakers it’s hooked up to. @anthonymaw Jitter is pretty much a non-issue nowadays. Steve Nugent (@audioengr, owner of Empirical Audio) can tell you he hears a drastic difference using his $700 reclocker going from 22psec (~20Bit) to 7psec (~22Bit), but that’s just baloney unless you are over amplyfing the signal. Also, even the $80 Grace SDAC has a Jitter-Test result of better than -130dB (~22Bit), so even if he could, it wouldn’t sound any different if the Grace DAC or better was the one being used. Most every setup does not have a low enough floor noise to get the full benefits of even 16Bit, and I doubt any music takes full advantage of 16Bit either. This is why is very unlikely for any setup to benefit rom using higher bitdepth than CD (and of course no benefit going higher than 44.1kHz, unless your DAC’s filter isn’t that great, then maybe 48kHz like most audio tracks in movies). |
I like reading the measurements to see if they correlate what I hear in subjective listening. But I agree that great measurements alone don’t signal great sound, nor do poor measurements signal poor sound. Case in point: I’ve owned several great SET and triode amps (Air Tight, VAC, and Woo) which have even been described as measuring “broken.” They sounded wonderful. With digital, I tend to take the measurements more seriously, including total bit depth, channel separation, noise floor, and jitter. Strong results seem to correlate better with good sound in my experience, and poor results seem to correlate with colored sound. I’ve heard several DACs based on the classic Phillips chips and they tend to have a laid back, mellower sound that, while pleasing, is less dynamic and more colored sounding than modern chipsets, especially those using FPGA implementations. Certainly the quality of the analog output stage will have a big impact, more so than the older DAC itself, in my experience, which is why my Musical Fidelity TriVista DAC, with its well regulated power supply and tubed output stage, still gives modern DACs a healthy run for the money despite using a now pedestrian TI1792 Chipset. I’m currently eyeing the Chord Qutest as a possible upgrade, and I am charmed by the sound and dynamics of the FPGA DACs I’ve heard. They measure really well too. i am sure the older Phillips based DACs have their charms but giant killers? My gut tells me otherwise. You can only tweak and squeeze so much out of these older chip designs. I’d love to compare these in my own system but without the chance, I’ll probably focus on the newer technology. |
Gentlemen: A few years ago I was a member of and attending a lecture by the AES Audio Engineering Society and the topic was what actually makes a "good" DAC?. The takeaway that I remembered most was that an accurate DAC starts with a stable and high precision (low-jitter) clock master signal. Here’s an article that provides an objective write-up on the DAC clock jitter issue that is similar to what I heard at the AES lecture. https://www.lessloss.com/page.html?id=33 |
@steakster By introducing DSP circuitry from a different manufacturer that is entirely designed to alter the signal created by the source component, your argument for measurements is completely nullified Not sure how you came up with that. DSP is used to tame room modes and EQ to your target curve, if I’m supposed to hear a note at -10dBFS yet my room modes causes that to be heard as -5dBFS, then I’ll use DSP to reduce that peak. It’s altering the signal so that the sound that hits your ear is similar to how it’s intended. DSP is digital. Bass traps are analog. DSP alters the source signal. Bass traps affect room reflection points. You’re mixing apples & orangesThey are both used to combat room modes, so no harm in mixing them in regards to how one can get a better sounding system. Treatment is of course the preferred method, DSP is the last line of defense. In other words, your solution takes into account budgetary factors as opposed to scientific measurable factors.In terms of describing my setup? Then yes. Really? Have you had your hearing checked lately? Have you read the technical differences of copper vs silver speaker wire? If so, you’d know that silver imparts no sound quality differences, so anything you hear is in your head, the one and only benefit is better conductivity, but if talking 10awg silver, then 8awg copper will be better conductive and cost a lot less. If you believe silver sounds different, I would recommend doing a double blind study (best if your speakers have dual binding posts, so you can use speaker cables with banana plugs and easily alternate). You could also record with your phone your system playing both songs, play them simultaneously in a video editor, but I very the phase of one track (due note that everything else, including environemental noise, needs to be identical). If you have any measurements showing that, if conductivity is matched, silver measures differently than copper, I’d love to see that. |
Hey bigkidz, Take a look at my review on the Lab12 at hometheaterreview.com for the details about its performance. I sold off a 10K DAC for the Lab12 that had been my reference, and compared the Lab12 to three other highly regarded DACS ranging in price from 14K to 20K and the Lab 12 was at least as good and bettered them on certain parameters. I'm very lucky being a professional reviewer. I get to hear many pieces in the context of my systems, instead of a showroom or at an audio show were you really can't get a take on a specific piece of gear for the obvious reasons. |
@akg_ca (1) Since everything in this crazy hobby is built to a level commensurate with its price-point, I have never yet seen ANY $2K DAC match -- much less "crush" -- a $10K-$12K DAC....full stop. And I’ve attended numerous audio fest paloozas with their A-B bake-offs and comparison shootouts. I agree, plus price has nothing to do with anything. To me there is no correlation between price and performance. Look at cables, some cost more that people have paid for their components and I have yet to hear a cable outperform a component I have owned. Any manufacturer and place a retail price on something that does not make it sound good. Most higher priced components also have very nice chassis designs. The chassis might cost more that the sum of the parts inside. Most components don't have expensive parts like custom wound transformers, dueland or V-caps, caddock or Vishay resistors, etc. so it is all in the design then? Not too much in design that has not already been done IMO. Crushing something tells me nothing unless I can understand specifically where the one component was better, then I feel educated on the differences one hears. Happy Listening |
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@mzkmxcv From your above post, you are validating @teajay 's point regarding starting your own thread. Your position is clearly well thought out and worthy of discussion, which is why starting your own thread on this is an ideal way forward. You will get the quality of debate and discussion you are looking for. |
@nonoise @teajay I’m stubborn to back down from my position as there are countless human trials showing that my position is valid. All your comments are dealing with what you believe or have experienced, which is invalid unless these comparisons between products were done double-blind, level matched, switched within ~10sec (humans can’t accurately remember sound past that point), etc. Many people believe digital audio is in stair steps and thus doesn’t accurately represent recorded music, that doesn’t make them right. Don’t you think it’s odd how Revel, KEF, Magico, Focal, Sonus Faber, PSB, GoldenEar, Vivid Audio, Monitor Audio, Tekton, Dali, etc. all aim for measured idealness (transparent), and pretty much all solid state amplifier companies try to do the same as well? Whereas B&W and Wilson tune for their own house sound and their reviews are divisive (10kHz peaks for B&W aren’t as audible if you are >50)? Answer me this, if you had a recording of a piano, are you saying you want some keys drastically different in volume than other keys? I want to hear my music, not my speakers nor my room (not anechoic of course, but to be within recommended reverb times), that’s also why I also use DSP to tame room modes mainly in the bass (as bass traps take up a lot of room and cost quite a pretty penny). If you feel I’m wrong, I welcome useful discussion. I’ve been proven wrong on some things I’ve believed before and welcome further learning. If one believes one solis state DAC can sound lifeless and another can have some more midbass slam, I’d like to be shown that that’s indeed the case, saying silver cables sound different than copper is also just wrong, silver is only better as it’s a better conductor, but a thicker gauge copper can easily have the same results for cheaper. |
Hey mzkmxcv, I did start this thread, so I'll ask you politely to please start your own post regarding your ridiculous position about measurements being more important, or that they can predicate, how a piece of gear will sound to a listener. You are entrenched in your position, so it's useless to debate with you. My purpose at starting this thread was to share information on the Lab 12 and it was leading to positive sharing until you hijacked it into this meaningless BS. Go start your own thread so you can rattle on about this "dead horse" debate or subject, so we can go back to the intent of my thread. |
@mzkmxcv, No. No grasping at straws as the measurements show only part of the story. The only straw being grasped is the one you chose in saying that the measurement is definitive of what an ideal speaker should sound like without being there to hear it for yourself. Hearsay is the ultimate straw man. All the best, Nonoise |
@nonoise The fact that everyone picked that speaker only goes to show that despite it’s drawbacks, everyone liked it due to it’s flavoring and the ear of the the guy who designed it. Some designers are better at it than others. Kinda grasping at straws there, aren’t you? No, it shows they picked the speaker that was closest to measurably ideal; any drawbacks were minimal compared to every other speaker tested, the “flavoring” added due to the fact that there is yet to be a speaker that measures ideally is of no consequence. Why do you think the new Revel F228Be is getting so much positive reviews? Because it’s Spinorama is superb (granted the measurement doesn’t show impedance/phase, sensitivity, distortion, etc., so it’s not a full comprehensive measurement). |
I'm using the transport teajay mentioned, along with a notoriously poorly-measuring DAC, and it sounds like magic to me. It already sounded very good from a TASCAM player, operating as a transport, but it absolutely took a few steps forward in imaging, instrument clarity, and weight. No venetian double blinds were harmed in my comparisons, either. |
