3k Phono preamp upgrade options (JC3+, XP-17, etc)

@riskymilk I owned a JC3+ and it was just ok it really never moved me also felt it was a bit noisy. What I went to was a Gold Note PH-10 with matching ps. Sonically it was better plus it is so versatile. Lots of reviews on the GN

@rsf507   The amount of noise generated by a phono stage depends on the cartridge you are trying to mate it with. In my recollection I can not recall anyone saying the JC3+ was noisy. Transformers are quite but they come with their own set of problems.

@riskymilk , These are both good phono stages. The JC3+ wins on the basis of sheer value. One could also argue that John Curl REALLY knows what he is doing. The JC3+ is relatively inexpensive because it is manufactured in Taiwan. If it was made here in the US it would cost easily three times as much and would not be built as well. Small manufacturers can not afford aerospace manufacturing equipment.

So when I said noisy it was that I could easily hear just "noise" in the soundstage that when switched out for several other phono units including the GN just was not there. A blacker background or cleaner presentation. 

@riskymilk You may find this thread helpful, in which I searched for an endgame SS phono. I’m not sure I’ve found it yet, but there sure are a lot of good suggestions and learnings from others even though many of the options fall above the $3K price range. Some of them do not. 

Solid state Sutherland 2020 phono pre issuperb already? If you add LPS it will even sound much better. Icon ps 1 phono pre is excellent.I own the 2020 And Icon ps 3, my friend has the ps1. 

IMO, True that John Curl’s name is associated historically with 2-3 phono stages dating back to the 70s and 80s that are venerable. But his work or products that use his name to make it seem he designed them these days are not necessarily wonderful or on the same high level. All that counts is how it sounds. As I recall the JC3+ exists because its predecessor the JC3 was not loved.

I owned an SPL Phonos and loved it. I traded it in for a Modwright PH9.0x and it is an endgame phonostage for me. A little more than you would like to spend but plenty of comments about it here in Agon.

Agree the Modwright PH9.0 and PH9.0X are wonderful. I’ve probably posted about them more than anyone on this forum. You can likely find a PH9.0 on the used market for less than $3K and upgrade from the stock tubes, which are necessary to get the best of it. Then, down the road, when ready, pay to upgrade to the X. 

@rsf507 What cartridges were you running with the JC3+ vs Goldnote? My Delos is not a super LOMC, so I'm not incredibly concerned with regard to noise, although it does seem to be a hit or miss problem for different systems.

@jayctoy The Sutherland 2020 with LPS is another option that I forgot to mention, it looks very competitive with its pricing. The icon looks great, but ufortunately I don't think it will work for me. It has 72 db gain for MC (Delos is 0.6 mv), and I don't want it to overwork its job in the system. If this isn't an issue please let me know....

@audiosaurusrex @blisshifi If I go the tube route, so far the Modwright PH9.0 looks like the best fit for my system. So far I really like the configurability of the model. What upgraded tubes do you recommend? Regarding Modwright, does the XLR upgrade actually implement a balanced circuit? Or just terminate the endings toward the end? 

Have any of you had experience with Zesto audio? A local dealer quoted me 3800 for the Andros II. 

Thank you everyone for the suggestions. Looks like the XP-17 is out now due to having some very competitive options at a lower price. So far here is my current priority list:
Solid State:
1. JC3+ & Sutherland 2020 LPS (tie)
2. Goldnote PH-10

Tube:
1. Modwright PH9.0

Personally I was unable to find a truly great phono stage until I switched to Audio Research and tubes. To me these get tone tone and details right. I would recommend looking at a used Audio Research… or Conrad Johnson… or Cary.

I own the Modwright 9.0x. I switch between rca out and xlr. There is a definite difference but that difference is subjective as to which one you like more. I prefer the xlr output for its bigger soundstage and a touch more apparent resolution. The rca still sounds great but has a slightly warmer and full bodied sound. Some music genres sound better via rca and some via xlr. Overall though, I slightly prefer the xlr output. 
 Change tubes to nos 6922/7308 Philips sq, miniwatt or Valvo. Siemens, Bel/India (Philips) and Amperex JAN USA also sound great. Mine 9.0x started out as a 9.0 before I upgraded it. As good a the 9.0 was, the 9.0X is that much better. (Slam and resolution)

@riskymilk There was another thread on rolling the PH9.0’s tubes that started just earlier this week:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/modwright-ph-9-0x-tube-rolling-question

As far as tube stages go, I have compared Modwright phono stages against Herron’s, the Allnic H1201, PS Audio Stellar Phono, Pass Xono, and Rogue Ares Magnum, and the Modwrights I owned all easily surpassed them. 

Yes, I started a hifi business recently but have no relationship with Dan Wright outside of once being a customer of much of his equipment. 

riskymilk posed a good question: Is the Modwright 9.0X a truly balanced device, or does it merely offer XLR inputs? And I might add, does it also offer XLR outputs? If yes, that would be a clue that it is balanced inside. Otherwise, one is just comparing the "sound" of an RCA interface to that of an XLR.

OK, I just went to the Modwright website. Apparently the 9.0X uses transformer coupling of its output, which permits it to drive a downstream linestage in balanced mode.  However, it handles the signal from the cartridge in single-ended mode only, it seems.  Hence it bears only RCA input jacks, no XLRs.

@hifi59 Great to hear the differences between the 9.0 and 9.0X. Does Modwright have any upgrade policy for upgrading an existing 9.0 to a 9.0X?

@blisshifi Thanks for the thread on tube rolling...So far it looks like I'm pretty sold on the 9.0 or 9.0X.

Have any of you used Lyra cartridges with any of the ModWright phono stages? Curious if anyone has any insight into the synergy between the two.

Thanks a ton!

@riskymilk Modwright just upgraded my 9.0 to the 9.0X. They are running a sale on the upgrade. If interested, contact Kristin at Modwright.

I have not used Lyra cartridges. My cartridge path with the 9.0/9.0X included the Audio Technica ART9, Dynavector XV-1S, Audio Technica ART1000, Air Tight PC-1S, and My Sonic Lab Signature Gold. All were properly powered and provided their own sonic characteristics.

That said, I did finally move on from the 9.0X and onto solid state stages. It took a considerable investment to be able to top the 9.0X. 

@ericsch Excellent, I just sent an inquiry to Kristin.

@blisshifi I am glad to hear that! Dynavector and Lyra are more similar than different, so that resolves any doubt I had about system matching.

Oddly specific question, but does the PH 9.0/X in Silver come with a silver power supply? Or is it always black (basing this off images from online)

Thanks again everyone for all the info, I wasn't even considering ModWright until now, but it seems like a very very solid option.

@riskymilk The power supply only comes in black. If you do end up getting it, I would suggest rolling the tubes, upgrading the power cable, using an aftermarket fuse (if you believe in them), and even building a custom umbilical if it's of reach. I also removed the feet from the unit I previously owned and placed Isoacoustics Orea footers underneath. For tubes, the 6922 pair has many options, but if you can, keep your eyes out for the Reflektor 6C45 to roll into the other two spots. They are very hard to come by now, but don't break the bank, and they are the best of the already very few 6C45 tubes ever produced.

@blisshifi Certainly. Many reviews point to this unit performing very well with tube rolling. I will keep an eye out for the 6C45s. Are there any other alternatives with better availability?

I'll catch up on the thread sent about tube rolling with the PH 9.0 ...

@cleeds , and they cost a whale of a lot more than a JC3+. I have not been in any recent ARC or Mac stuff but the last time I looked they were still using through hole construction. Both are now a cut below the finest brands such as Boulder and Constellation (also US companies) but that is "Luxury" HiFi and IMHO over the top. To my own way of thinking if I were financially strapped the JC3+ is a unit I could buy. If money were no object there is not a thing any of the above mentioned companies make that interests me. 

@lewm , why do you always have to be so picky? John Curl was designing high end HiFi gear before anyone else had even thought of it. The early Mark Levinson gear was so far superior to anything else present in the day it was astonishing. So what if he has a clinker or two to his name. I had a Nelson Pass Preamp (Threshold) that was a better radio than most tuners.  

The JC3+ is an absolutely superb phono stage and it certainly is not noisy. Based on extensive listening experience, I would say that you need to go to a Pass XP27 to improve on the JC3+. That's a reflection of what tremendous value for money the Parasound is.

The best SS phono I ever heard and would buy is the Tom Evans.  Excellent sounding.  The Tron also makes a good phono but it is a little soft sounding but  very musical.

Happy Listening.

@riskymilk No, there are not really any other options with a lot of availability aside from the Sovtek that ship with the unit. Electro Harmonix also makes one, but that too is hard to find and not as good as the Reflektor. 

Keep in mind that it is very quiet considering it is a tube unit. I believe with great tubes the unit is at ~75-85db SNR. But it is still not as quiet as some of the ultra-high end SS stages which approach 100db SNR. That said, most people are not as anal since record groove noise is about 70db SNR. 

SPL Phonos. Under $2k and is a solid, solid choice.

Built in Germany and is one of a few recommendations I have picked up off Agon and have zero regrets over. Built like a tank and would be worht the price at @ $3000.00

Mijostyn, Curl designed a pre-preamp for Mark Levenson back in the mid 70s. That was basically a gain stage to be placed ahead of a conventional moving magnet phono stage, because back then there were very few if any phono stages that by themselves had sufficient gain for moving coil cartridges which were just then introduced in a big way in the US market. Since then he has had two designs that are associated with his name that seem to be classics. The Vendetta is one. There are several people who frequent this forum who own it and mention it. The other one was the CTC Blowtorch , which I guess was a very limited edition, because they are rare as hen’s teeth and you never see them for sale. Other than those three items, what among his designs is so wonderful? And I am not so sure that the original pre-preamplifier was anything sonically exceptional. it was novel only because it was a unique product at the time. Nelson Pass, on the other hand is definitely a pioneer in advancing the art of solid-state audio design, both for preamplifiers and amplifiers. And he never stops working. And you could be sure that whatever comes out under his name or under the First Watt name is his design. So sight unheard, I would take the Pass preamplifier over the JC 3+. But by all means, one should audition both if one is choosing between them. I wouldn’t buy the JC3+ just because of the JC.

@riskymilk.  Mine is an upgraded 9.0. It cost me $1000 about 15 months ago for the upgrade to the X.  I think it’s $1200 now.

@riskymilk - I own the Pass XP-17, JC3+, and PS Audio Steller phono preamps. All are extremely good. The Pass XP-17 is the best.

       -GAR

Just to be clear, what I meant above was that one would be I’ll advised to buy the JC3+ based solely on the association with JC, without an audition. I did not mean to imply the association with JC is a negative. I realize now that my last sentence or two could be construed  that way.

@gareents Hi Gar, could you elaborate more between the differences of the XP-17 and JC3+ ? More specifically between mid range, dynamics, and resolution. Additionally, how large the differences are.

Thanks.

An engaging and informative discussion... I had a JC3+ for some time, and purchased it new. I sold it because I felt like it had too much self generated noise too. It definitely wasn't as dead quiet as the reviews in the audio mags led me to believe. I've had others, tube and SS, and am saving for the newish Accuphase stand alone unit, the C-47. But for a place-holder, I bought a little ifi Zen Phono. With a balanced IC and upgraded power supply, its amazingly quiet and awesome. It's paired with a Hana Umami Red, and the sound is intoxicating. I find it inexcusable that any multi-thousand dollar phono-stage should inject any of its own sound into the music.

To supplement @oranfoster, while the JC3+ For MC carts boasts a supposed >87db SNR, it’s unweighted SNR is 67db, which is louder in some frequencies than the record groove noise itself. 

+1 @oranfoster my findings as well.

Dear @lewm : " his work or products that use his name to make it seem he designed them these days are not necessa rily wonderful or in the same high level. "

Well I don’t know which facts you have that can confirm your statement because any audio item that comes with " JC designed " was in true designed by him at JC designer levels he has ( " wonderful  " ! ! ? ? ). The design it’s a truly good one.

Differences in overall quality levels were made by the manufacturer parts/boards/execution quality of the JC design but these is different from what you stated. The JC design is " wonderful ".

Take a look, his Levinson ML-2 amplifier monobloks is now not only a legend but even today is a true " amplifier bible " for an amplifier SS design and I know because I own a pair of 20.6 that came from " there "/ML-2 topology and I can tell you that these monobloks are second to NONE.

https://richardquickdesign.com/

http://www.marklev.com/p/preamplifiers.html

http://www.soundscapeav.com/parasound/johncurl.html

Remember the Bluetorch ( or something like that, I can’t remember the correct name. ) phono stage that he designed along other 3 gentlemans,.JC was in charge for the electronics design? and the whole electronics line ( preamp, amplifiers, equalizer ) side by side with Colangelo ( very expensive units ) ? and where is the place of his famous phono stage Vendetta.

For me he is the best audio electronics/devices freelance advisor/consultant for any audio manufacturer. Several manufacturers that you not even imagine were taken " advise /wok " from him.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

@riskymilk 

Regarding differences between Pass XP17, PS Audio Steller, and Parasound JC3+, they are closer than different.

The Steller is dead quiet, more than the JC3+, a little more resolution than the JC3+, but maybe not quite as dynamic. Both have great mid-range.

The XP17 is all of the above, quiet (equal but not more so than the Steller), great resolution and dynamic while very musical.

   -GAR

I at the same time owned the PS Audio Stellar and Pass Xono, which was around before the XP17. The Stellar was quiet and had more body than the Xono, but the Xono's resolution and dynamics were better, albeit sounding more typical to 'solid state' regarding temperature. The Rogue Ares Magnum with good tubes easily bested them, and the Modwright PH9.0X easily bested the Rogue.

My apologies to JC.  The intention of my post was not to criticize him or even any single thing he designed, but simply to point out that it is wise to choose based on your own listening tests and experience, rather than based on the fame of the designer, up or down. The proof is in the pudding, for any designer of any piece of gear.  In this case of the JC3+ vs the XP17, one would be hard pressed to claim that one designer is inherently superior to the other. They're both in the Mt Rushmore of solid state design.

It's too bad the Herron is discontinued. I had a JC3+. I prefer my Herron much more, especially that I can use it without any loading. 

Interesting discussion. I just switched back to a tube phono pre after a decade of solid state. Why? I found an EAR 834p in pristine condition and still regret selling the one I had 20 years ago. Just had to have it.

Well everyone,

I pulled the trigger on a used ModWright PH9.0 for 2.3k. The dealer has a 14-day return policy if anything does wrong.

Thanks everyone for the different perspectives and recommendations!

Nice @riskymilk!

As mentioned on other threads it can really shine with good tubes, quality aftermarket power cable, and an upgraded fuse. Should you like the unit, the upgrade to a PH9.0X is well worth it down the line. 

Please let us know what you think after you get to play with it.

I just received the PH 9.0 earlier today. I did some AB testing with my Clearaudio Nano V2, and the differences are incredible (as they should be!).

For starters, the detail of the ModWright is in another league compared to the Nano, the nuances and subtleties of vocals are there, which I didn't realize was being lost when using the Nano. This aspect wasn't what impressed me the most, as I'm sure that the JC3+ or Stellar Phono would have provided this level of detail as well.

When I compare the ModWright to the Nano regarding 'realism' it's shocking how 'life-like' the ModWright sounds. I've tried some tube headphone amps years back, and never felt moved by them. WIth the PH 9.0, I'm blown away by how natural and real the sound is. Previously the Nano sounded more like my digital, but less detailed. With the ModWright, it's very detailed while the sound just flows in an organic way.

Lastly, the change in soundstage really took me by surprise. The width of it increased substantially, and it now feels like I'm inside the soundstage, rather than observing it. Almost as if I could walk into it. 

I really don't know how much better it can get with the PH 9.0X upgrade, but there's a very high chance that I upgrade it in a year or so. In the mean time I'm on the lookout for some new tubes, as I'm uncertain how old the current tubes are.

@blisshifi Regarding the 6C45s, is this the correct one? (I shortened ebay url) I know there are many variations of the same tube, so if you could confirm that would be great.

https://tinyurl.com/isthis6C45

And for the 6922s you also liked Reflektors?
https://www.thetubestore.com/6h23n-eb-6922
 

Also I wanted to mention that I'm shocked by how quiet this phono stage is, I'm incredibly impressed with it 😁

@riskymilk I am so glad you decided to move forward with this unit and are happy with the results. It truly is a superb phono stage in its price range.

The second link you shared is accurate for the 6922 substitution, but I would be careful of the first link to the 6C45s. The imagery does not clearly depict a rocket above the silver lettering. It might be there, but if I were you I would want to seek assurance that they are authentic. 

@riskymilk Perhaps look into these. It’s a quad but at least you have backups if one ever dies. It’ll be harder to source them down the road.

6C45s from Ukraine

I've been pretty happy with my 6111 based Quad 24p, but now having two tables, one with a low output cartridge, I have a Rek-O-Kut switch and an extra set of interconnects in the signal path. I also have to use the 'sensitivity' knob on the back and the MM/MC switch, which were probably specified by Quad to be low-use items, rather than something that might get turned or flipped after each side of an album. So when I initially misdiagnosed a sound in one speaker as coming from the phono stage I jumped at a barely used Musical Fidelity Nu-Vista Vinyl I have had my eye on, for <3kCDN. Pity it turned out to be the Quad 2905 arcing yet another panel. Anyway, in a few days I'll have it. I very much like what MF did with the X-Can V3 (listening through it right now), so I'm betting the Nu-Vista Vinyl has the same kind of sound.

@riskymilk I went from a Pass XP-15 to a PH 9.0X. I also experienced
a wider soundstage and better detailed presentation. In my system,
the 9.0X is quieter. The XP-15 is excellent, but overall I prefer the MW.
Also, no more dip switches is a big plus for me

@blisshifi Yes, I was concerned about the authenticity of the first link I sent as well, I rather just play it safe. Just ordered the pair you sent.

@ericsch Certainly, having knobs feels great.  And the mono switch is a great plus as well. Glad to hear your impressions were similar to mine :)

@blisshifi Previously you mentioned an upgraded fuse. Are there any resources I can find on this? I'm not an expert at EE and tweaking circuits, so if this is a 'risky' upgrade I may elect to skip this.

The ModWright is a great unit, I really can't thank everyone that recommended it enough.

@riskymilk I used a Synergistic Research Blue fuse in mine. They’re no longer made, but they come up used on marketplaces. The more recent versions are the Orange and Purple. The effects of SR’s fuses are talked about (and debated) on many threads on this forum. With Synergistic Research fuses, it is always advisable to use one value over the listed value.