2020 update : JC Verdier La Platine

Stacore stuff is very pricy, MinusK been arround for years and seem to hold better value for money, Stacore seems to market the stuff to audiophile and as a results puts a audiophile price tags on its products.

@thekong The Terminator is underrated. If you had used it before and liked it, then wait til you hear it with a 150 litre surge tank / buffer setup. It becomes Terminator Se+ version! I run it at 1.30 psi. Members here have operated with pressure as low as 0.5psi. 

A 16" version would be something to see.

Does your friend go by "Daiwok'?

 

The Terminator is a nice arm, especially considering the reasonable price. My friend, who was a founding member of Lenco Heaven, was a good friend of Vic, so I had a set of Terminator plus Salvation for a little while. As I remember, it sounded best with the lowest air pressure, which still enable the arm to operate normally; something like 1.3 or even 1.1 psi if I remember correctly. Of course, buffer air tanks were also a necessity!

 

I still have a custom made 16” version of the arm sitting in the box somewhere in my friend’s apartment, and I have never seen that arm in person! Must be around 10 years already. Crazy old days 😆

@thekong I use a LT tonearm, Trans-Fi Terminator. The arm, originally designed and built in the UK, is made in Russia now. I requested an after market arm- board from the producer of the arm as he too has a Verdier. It is laminated from Finnish plywood and carbon fiber. And I level the plinth as well as the pod before mounting the tonearm.  I has to use a spacer plated under the arm pod with my previous SME V to overcome clearance problems. 

@ledoux1238 , those arm column and armboard are nice! Actually, I have something similar made locally.

 

If you are using the stock armboard, have you measured the leveling of the platter against the armboard carefully? In my unit, the leveling between the two is off, i.e. if one is leveled, the other is off. I have to place 2 name cards as shims under the armboard to level it against the platter. If your unit have the same problem, you may need to consider some aftermarket armboards.

 

Best,

@thekong Thanks for your updates.

I have seen either double or single platform on Micro Seiki's. But for the double platforms, they tend to be the same non-suspension footers for both. With Verdier users, I have seen different suspension platforms used on plinth and motor. That seems quite counterintuitive, to say the least. But apparently, that's how it's done. 

 

https://fosworld.wixsite.com/magna-audio/armboards-pods-plinths?lightbox=dataItem-kzb7w47a

https://fosworld.wixsite.com/magna-audio/armboards-pods-plinths?lightbox=dataItem-kkr568g8

Links above are to Steve's Magna Audio web-site in UK with beautiful ebony arm-boards. 

 

Your idea of an arm-board that straddles both mounting holes for the Kuzma Airline will be the most stable way to mount a linear tracker on the deck. That would be an interesting project!

 

Regarding threads, I am using a viscose and pure silk threads from Japan. However, I have toyed with trying the K5 kevlar threads used on Micro Seiki's. 

 

I have been following some of your past posts, especially  your experiences with the legendary Rockports. Very impressive! 

 

As Lewm has already mentioned, it is quite interesting that Verdier users, as a group, seem to be the only one who embraced the idea of using long belt / string and putting plinth and motor on separate platforms! Yes, I have seen some Micro Seiki users doing the same, but they are certainly in the minority.  Even the insolation base developed by Micro Seiki for their 8000 MK2 placed the plinth and motor next to each other. 

 

As mentioned, I have just started on fine tuning the La Platine. I started out using the Kuzma 4Point 14" with Dynavector XV1S, but I have just taken it out and going to put in a Schroeder CB with a VDH Colibri XCM for testing. Once I get a better handle on the La Platine, my plan is to make a large armboard, which can be placed across both arm columns, and install a Kuzma Airline. Will see how that goes! 

 

To defeat the suspension, I simply placed some metal footers with height adjustment ability on the four corners, nothing fancy. Currently, I am just using some nylon threads, but will certainly test other options. 

 

Best regards,

The idea to separate motor from plinth comes from two sources: a local dealer and a fellow Verdier adopter in HK on advice from AnalogMgik’s Richard Mak. Mak is a champion of the deck ( I think he has two). He places the plinth and motor ( after market) on separate platforms with rather longish tape drive. That is how I thought I would proceed with a dedicated platform for the plinth, until both your gentleman’s, Lew and Michael, comments above. Further research will be required on my part. But one thing is clear now to me. MinusK may not be the right choice as a platform, especially for holding both plinth and motor. Size alone seems to preclude it. And I constantly tweak tonearm, thread length...etc, and each would entail a further platform adjustment!

 

@thekong 1. How do you defeat the suspension? 2. What arm(s) / cartridge are you using? 3. Are you using aftermarket thread or other drives?

Hi Lewm,

You can read about how the NSM works here, but can’t say I understand it completely:

 

 

Yes, the feeling push down on the MinusK is so different from normal springs, so smooth and well damped, almost feels like hydraulic!

 

Thanks for the correction.  I wonder what is an NSM.  If you push on a Minus K, it does not behave as if primarily spring loaded, which is to say that a spring will exert a force directly proportional to its degree of compression or extension from rest, among other factors of course. So, if you push on a spring loaded shelf, the shelf will get more and more difficult to compress, and the reverse happens when you release the shelf allowing it to restore its steady state position. The Minus K seems to exert a constant force restoring it to its steady state location, up or down. For this reason, I intuitively think or thought of it as using something other than springs, at least primarily.

The MinusK does use springs, but probably not in the conventional manner.

 

According to their website: "Vertical-motion isolation is provided by a stiff spring that supports a weight load, combined with a negative-stiffness mechanism (NSM)."

I would never recommend mounting motor and TT on two separate platforms especially if either one of the two is sprung or otherwise designed to move in response to external stimuli. In that case both devices must be on the same platform of course. (Minus K doesn’t use springs.)

@ledoux1238  No, I have not try putting the motor on a separate platform, partly because it is not that practical in my setup, but mainly because I simply do not believe in it. I doubt that he remember this, but many years ago I had some email exchange with Thom of Galibier, where we talked about having the motor and plinth on separate platforms. I learned a lot about the drawback of such arrangement from him, and it all made sense to me. Even today, if you look at some of the top turntables with separate motors, such as the Kuzma XL and even the Walker, they all have their motors relatively close to the plinths. I think that is not a coincident.

 

About pneumatic platform, I have been using the floor standing model from TMC since nearly 20 years ago. I was thinking if it was good enough for Rockport, it probably was good enough for me. I have always been very satisfy with them!

 

While you can certainly test it yourself, I would strongly recommend against putting the motor on separate platform if you are using a pneumatic platform, and especially the MinusK. I have seen the MinusK working in my friend's system. It has very soft springs, so I am pretty sure the pull of the belt (if the motor is on separate platform) will affect its leveling. And yes, the MinusK doesn't like asymmetric load, so you may need to experiment with placing weight on different positions on the platform to achieve leveling. Also, it is so sensitive to the weight that if you use a record weight during setup, you will always need to use the record weight, or you may throw the platform out of level. It is because of all these inconvenient that kept me from using the MinusK, although, at least on paper, it performs even better than my TMC.

@thekong Yes, getting an isolation / anti vibration platform will indeed be the next upgrade for me. You have opted to put the table and motor on the  same platform. Have you tried motor and plinth on separate platforms? What pneumatic platform are you using?

Minus K had been a consideration. As I was going to put plinth only on it, I have read that Minus K does not like asymmetric loading. I wondered if any La Platine user might throw some light on this? Another contender is the Polish Stacore Pneumatic  platform, though very pricey. The two most likely Options seem to be  pneumatic footers by Pneunace Audio or a air bearing platform from FFYX, a Chinese  audio co. 

Hi Lewm,

I agree with your assessment on the JC Verdier. After I came out from my 4-5 years sabbatical from audio, the first turntable that I bought was a La Platine. I have defeated the suspension, using a tungsten carbide ball on the bearing, and put the whole system including the motor on a pneumatic optical table. The motor is only a couple of inches from the plinth.

Although it is only early days on my fine tuning, my initial impression is that while the La Platine it is not as detail / resolving as more expensive (a lot more expensive) turntables, it is very musical and enjoyable. I have no doubt more fine tuning will yield further improvements. I think it is a very good deal with it's second hand price.

@ledoux1238 , before getting into motor or cartridge upgrade, I would suggest you consider trying some industrial antivibration platform, like the MinusK as Lewm has suggested, or some pneumatic optical platform if you don't mind having a compressor / pump unit. Good luck on your journey with the La Platine, it is indeed a very good turntable!  

 @phantom_av Last checked, The Walker Proscenium is in its 6th iteration. But I seem to recall it’s price tag always hovered close to / above $100k. So if going from a Verdier to an early Walker was a ‘lateral move’, that’s quite surprising. Would you share other TTs that you have come across?

@lewm Thanks for your replay on your DD table collection. I think I first learnt of the Kenwood L07D from one of your posts. And I have since read up on quite a lot of vintage DDs. I have even contacted Peter Noerbaek of PBN audio about his modified Denon DN-308, a rare Denon used only in radio stations. Alas, it was quite a financial stretch same with Sp-10 mk3’s. Maybe a DP 80 would be a good start for a DD novice like me?

Regarding you comments on the top heavy and springy natures of the Verdier, quite honestly when I look at the table, those concerns do flash through my mind. The improbably large magnets probably ameliorate the high center of gravity issue to allow the high mass of the platter to do its work. I have inquired about defeating the spring footers. Thom Mackris of Galibier is an advocate especially with his tape drive. From a fellow La Platine user with thread drive, he claimed that using solid footers decreases SQ. I have not tried, even though it is an easy tweak. Frankly with my precent vinyl setup, Trans-Fi LT arm ( another item that you’d think would not work with the Verdier ), Audio Tekne MC 6310 / ZYX Ultimate Omega, Audio Tekne SUT, and a humble Sun Valley EQ 1616D Tube Phono, I am experiencing an extremely natural / real presentation, more so than ever. Quite happy with it. My only curiosity is with the motor, hence my post. 

ledoux, To answer your question posed 9 months ago, in June, my switch to one idler (a highly modified Lenco) and four DD turntables (Kenwood L07D, Technics SP10 Mk3, Denon DP80, and Victor TT101) was motivated more by curiosity than by dissatisfaction with belt drive, although in retrospect I am not sorry I made the changes, and in retrospect (remembering what belt-drives came before in my system), I can hear the reasons why. In fact, I am so attached to what I own that I could not bring myself to part with any of them. When I bought the TT101 I made myself a promise to sell the DP80, but it’s too good for the amount of money it would bring, and I use it for MM cartridges in my Sound Labs system, very happily. But I refuse to be dogmatic about turntable drive; the belt-drives I owned previously were not at the top level, whereas the Kenwood L07D and the SP10 Mk3 can at least compete with high end DD turntables. Among modern BD turntables, I really like the Dohmann Helix.

I have a fairly good grasp on the Verdier. What I would question is: (1) it seems too top heavy with the massive platter causing a high center of gravity. That combined with the spongy feet seems undesirable, because the belt exerts a side force, and the tippy chassis might tend to lean toward the motor on its spongy feet. Defeating the suspension and then placing BOTH the TT and motor on something like a Minus K platform, close together, would seem better. And (2) in both of 2 installations I have seen and heard locally, the motor is set far apart from the platter. Theoretically that is bad for belt creep and possibly for slippage. I think I brought this up much earlier in this thread and was rebutted by someone who said the motor is not necessarily to be set far away from the platter. If so, mea culpa, but it is in two cases I know about where the Verdier is the choice of two very fastidious and very knowledgeable audiophiles with ample funding.

 

@ledoux1238 This was very early in the evolution in the Walker table. Even though mine looked pretty much like the current model, much has changed over the last couple decades. Honestly, for me, it ended up as a lateral move. I sold the Walker a few year after I bought it and don't miss it at all. I do miss the Verdier even though I currently have several very nice turntables. I consider the Verdier one of the great audio classics. The Morch DP-6 was a nice match IMHO. Enjoy.

@phantom_av 

Thanks for the update. Dereneville motors are indeed expensive as wth the rest of its line of TTs' and tonearms. 

Regarding upgrades, I am looking at a air-bearing isolation platform for the Verdier rather than go the motor route. And I will update when appropriate.

What arm and cartridge are on your Verdier?

 

@vinylvalet 

Would you care to give a breif discription on SQ improvement going from the Verdierto the Walker? I have read much in the drop of noise floor and the immense soundstage of the Walker.

 

I had one in the late 90s with a Morch DP-6 tonearm. I replaced it with a Walker Proscenium Gold. I enjoyed my time with the Verdier, a unique and very good sounding design.

I sold it to a good friend in Little Rock, AR. He still uses it with a Lyra Kleos in a very top of the line Naim system driving big ProAc speakers. The last time I visited I found the sound quality of vinyl playback to be spectacular.

Dereneville Audio to my opinion is not worth the money (5K for a motor!) and i was advised to stay away from it by another Analog fanatic friend of mine.

Iv not really had time to get into all this for the motor, Iv been wanting to upgrade but find it rather dificult on which ones to choose and now considering if the simple tweeks might be sufficent enough for some SQ upgrade.

 

Spending 4-5 K just for a motor is not going to happen.

@phantom_av 

Did you explore any other motor drive and/ or battery pack conversion? I would be intereted in your search, if any.

 

 

@phantom_av 
The assumption that switching out the stock motor ( with presumably a more expensive motor ) would amount to an 'upgrade' may need some comment. I begun this thread 1 1/2 year ago with the same assumption. I had speed stability issues. However, with experiments on threads, advises by more experienced La Platine users on how to work with thread tensions, and the Callas audio upgrade, https://www.callas-audio.nl/Platine%20tips%20&%20tweaks.pdf ( including the battery conversion ), I am very comfortable with how the stock motor is operating. There are definitely tweaks to look into for improvements. 

In speaking to a fellow La Platine owner recently who has converted to a Dereneville motor ( in the $4k - $5k range ), his advise to me was to stick with the existing motor. In a separate thread on the What's Best Forum, the same person stated that the Dereneville motor lowered the background and that he was happy to have made the 'upgrade'. However, noting his private conservation to me, he is really saying that it may not necessarily be money well spent. ( He did mentioned that a well considered isolation platform was a definite upgrade for the La Platine. )

Be that as it may, here is a list of motor options that I have researched as possible 'upgrade' :
1. Dereneville Audio has at least three possible model that would work. 
2. Sperling Audio has two motors.
3. Galibier Design is marketing its motor with modification as a fit for the Verdier. Thom has commented on this thread with the advise to defeat the suspension of the Verdier for best results with his motor and tape drive.
4. SOTA Turntable has a motor paired with a servo system, i.e. Roadrunner, under its Eclipse series that would be another option that I seriously considered. You would have to construct a housing for the motor. 
5. Jasmine audio has a motor which I own. Admittedly, this is perhaps not in the same league as the above motor systems. I have paired the motor with an Origin Live belt made for Micro Seiki. It is a different sonic presentation than the thread drive, a little closed in. My conclusion with the Jasmine is that a different motor would definitely change the complexion of the Verdier.  But at what cost would the change be an upgrade?

Can anyone advise on the motor upgrade or where to buy one? Or a Conversion kit to change it to a battery operated?

While reading a review of VPI Titan on Mono & Stereo magazine, The writer, Richard Mak, mentioned the Verdier La Platine. He owns the Verdier with a modified suspension. He apparently used replacement springs that are 1.6 times stronger than existing. 
How do you go about dismantling the existing suspension footers? Has any one attempted such a tweak?

@pani 
I appreciate the video and the beautiful motor / flywheel assembly. Yes, it comes from a very committed Verdier adopter. 

Regarding tweaking the Verdier, there are two aspects. The first  is to understand the original intent of the designer. With that understanding in mind, then deciding whether tweaking certain design features would improve sonics. The second is of course seeking improvements beyond the intended design. The past two years has been to learn not just how to improve the Verdier, but what the original design ideas were. 

Defeating the suspension or replacing thread with tape would be  examples. The Thread drive / Philips motor / plinth suspension is thought of as an integral package by the designer. Both the La Platine and the Nouvelle Platine ( I believe ? ) are suspended decks and they were meant to work best with thread drive. While I have tweaked with varies thread and belts, to me very fine silk, not viscose, threads work best. If one ventures into tape drive, with the original suspension intact, I wondered if you will hear improvements. However, in the video the table is sounding very nice and clearly improvements can be had by going beyond the original design parameters. This aspects of the Verdier decks is perhaps the most fascinating and at times, frustrating.

@pani 
I appreciate the video and the beautiful motor / flywheel assembly. Yes, it comes from a very committed Verdier adopter. 

Regarding tweaking the Verdier, there are two aspects. The first  is to understand the original intent of the designer. With that understanding in mind, then deciding whether tweaking certain design features would improve sonics. The second is of course seeking improvements beyond the intended design. The past two years has been to learn not just how to improve the Verdier, but what the original design ideas were. 

Defeating the suspension or replacing thread with tape would be  examples. The Thread drive / Philips motor / plinth suspension is thought of as an integral package by the designer. Both the La Platine and the Nouvelle Platine ( I believe ? ) are suspended decks and they were meant to work best with thread drive. While I have tweaked with varies thread and belts, to me very fine silk, not viscose, threads work best. If one ventures into tape drive, with the original suspension intact, I wondered if you will hear improvements. However, in the video the table is sounding very nice and clearly improvements can be had by going beyond the original design parameters. This aspects of the Verdier decks is perhaps the most fascinating and at times, frustrating.

@ledoux, that youtube video was to tell you how far people have gone to tweak the Verdier. I did not get to that point because that would have meant usage of a tape drive (like in the video) with appropriate modification to the motor capstan and also the flywheel in that video is a very expensive one designed by the person himself. Yes, it sounds very good after all these mods.

The sound of the idler to me is simply superior to many belt drives I have heard (including Verdier). The issue with idlers is to find a well done TT which is low noise and high resolution. In that respect a Nantais Lenco or a Shindo Garrard is very well done with all the qualities of idler (speed, dynamics & flow) with a very low noise floor.

@lewm 
A slight correction on the platter weight, it is 18 kg. 

It seems that  'high torque, low inertia' is a very common motor type. The low inertia refers to the non-moving part of the motor. And it is characterized by an ability to start and stop quickly. A 'high inertia' motor does the opposite, start and stop slowly and tends to be of the servo type. I believe even the Maxon that @Pani used is a high torque low inertia type. 

The motor / thread drive choice for the Verdier is best explained, as @lbelchev mentioned, by the CS Port literature: allowing the inertia of the heavy platter ( 16 kg ) to maintain speed stability without the use of a servo ( high inertia ) motor. In the case of the the La Platine, oil applied to the spindle provides a corrective force / brake to counter stylus drag. 

@Pani
Thank you for the additional information on improving the motor with DC conversion. From the Youtube link you attached, I notice the nice custom motor. That is the Maxon, I presume? The pitch of harpsichord from the clip sounds, frankly, good to me, even though one should not infer too much from the sonics of Youtube.

I still am quite struck by the reasoning of your conversion to an idler drive. The sound from the Lenco sounds more right to you, or that coming from the Verdier thread drive sounded wrong. 

@lewm
I know you have many turntables, mostly DD if I am not mistaken. Is the preference due to something fundamentally 'off' from the belt drive format?

Compared to the inertia of the platter (57kg!!!), I would think the inertia of the drive motor is trivial, regardless of its type or construction. Anyway, wouldn’t the inertia of the motor ADD to the speed constancy rather than subtract as the text implies? Maybe someone is conflating inertia with friction.

Thank you @Ibelchev , I get your point.
The sonic difference between the Philips and Maxon was not much but I wanted a more powerful motor since I intended to try the flywheel experiment.  

Low INERTIA is very very different from low TORQUE!

You can check: HIGH TORQUE MOTORS WITH LOW INERTIA :-)

"First of all, it is "low inertia" motor. In the case of Philips unit, that term refers to a very special technology. In "low inertia" motor, the turning part-the rotor-consist of a cooper coil, the turns almost parallel to the rotation axle cutting the field lines of the magnetic circuit, excited by a permanent magnet which is totally fixed. The weight of the rotor is reduced as much as possible, so the inertial tendency is small relative to the work provided by the motor."
J.C.Verdier

We can see this brilliant principle in 2020 - CS Port Analog Disk Player LFT1 (£48,000.00): "In LFT 1, the rotation control is not performed, and the constant speed rotation is left to the high moment of inertia of the 27 kg platter, creating a rotation free from unnecessary vibration caused by the control. Only the positive direction force is applied from the motor, but by using a coreless motor with LESS MOMENT OF INERTIA, the influence of the vibration is reduced."

No, it is a low inertia Philips motor. The maxon is about 3 times more powerful

1. Changed the motor from the low torque philips to a high torque Maxon motor.

@pani,

The motor used in the Platine Verdier is a powerful, HIGH torque, LOW inertia, core-less DC regulated motor.

@ledoux1238, I get your sentiments. Since you are happy to explore and experiment, here are some more things I tried with the Verdier:

1. Changed the motor from the low torque philips to a high torque Maxon motor. Currently these are used in top TTs like Kronos. I did not change the motor housing. I just replaced the motor and added the feature to connect a battery based 12v power supply to it.

2. Initially I used a deep cycle 12v battery (used in high end health care systems). Their voltage does not drop or fluctuate.

3. I also connected a high quality capacitor bank between the battery and the motor. At each step in this experiment, the sound did improve but it did not change the fundamental character of the presentation.

4. I also tried photovoltaic cells for the purest possible power to the motor.

5. I added a 30kg flywheel in between the motor and TT for higher energy drive. 

Here is a system of a friend of mine who also uses Nouvelle platine verdier and incorporates all the tweaks I mentioned and a little more. Please watch the video till the end:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkk0zoSBSJw

@pani
During the past long weekend here, it was spent carefully listening for the ‘ slowness ‘  you mentioned in the belt-drive format. Frankly without  a direct comparison, I do not hear it. My sole experience with idler drive is from a Garrard 301 front end and  mostly vintage components. The sense of drive and power in the music was palpable. I remember coming away appreciating the system, but not thinking it superior. That was just one experience in a unfamiliar system. 

But your comments has gotten me researching Idler drive and DD. My enthusiasm for the Verdier is partly due to the amount of research devoted to understanding the TT. I bought the turntable knowing only one salient feature, its magnetic drive. And throughout the twenty years of ownership ( with several years in storage ) many features were experimented upon. The game of audio, for me, is first the love of music, of course.  Even more, it is an intellectual pursuit, a sense of discovery through music and its mechanical reproduction. I do believe I will be venturing into the other two drive systems.

I admire your enthusiasm for this classic turntable. I was using the Nouvelle Platine upgraded by Keith Aschenbrenner of Auditorium 23 for about 5 years. I have also heard the Platine multiple times. You are absolutely correct on few things:

1. The suspension and low noise string drive allows the platine to provide a very silent background on which instruments float.

2. Replacing the suspension with any rigid cone or stillpoints makes the sound dry

3. Changing the string for fishing line, rubber belts or any such thing ended in an inferior sound

However, here is the thing about the sound of the Verdier which cannot be rectified. It sounds slow. The pitch is not true. I am very sensitive to accuracy of PRAT. It is a foundational attribute. Even a basic television or a $100 player gets it and thats why we are able to enjoy music on such elementary sources. Unfortunately, Verdier and many other players in the "high-end" do not keep the pitch and time. Probably because the designers have always chased the goals of an ultra silent, impressive playback. To me they are designers but they do not have the ear for accuracy of music. The world of audio is all filled with such people who do not get the structure of music and unfortunately at the helm of designs of the most expensive audio equipments. Same goes to reviewers who review these products. BTW, I did enjoy my time with Verdier, always knowing what it is missing. In the process I too tried all the tweaks like you and other Verdier owners.

Now I use a Jean Nantais Reference Lenco MK2. Not as quiet as Verdier but it plays music without the structure 

During the past six months, I have concentrated on improving the performances of my arm, Trans-Fi Terminator, and cartridge ( Audio Tekne MC6310 ) alignment, VTF, VTA..etc. The sound quality from vinyl playback is quite unbelievable. Last night the experience of listening to Everyone Digs Bill Evans is a case in point. Philly Joe Jones' drumming floats distinctly with 'air' on the right side behind the speaker and in front of the back wall. Quite uncanny! 

Each record has a different 'sound' that I can easily  distinguish and no two sound alike. The ability to hear into the recording venue, to separate the varies instruments, ....etc is all there. The listening experience is one of music enjoyment / appreciation without the interference or the awareness of the equipments playing the music.

Recently I got in touch with a fellow La Platine owner around my neck of the woods in Hong Kong. This gentleman, Dave, was a strictly digital guy until three years ago. With the help of a friend, he was able to compare in one sitting seven TT's, Gerrard, Teachdas, and among others. He decided on the Verdier. And he has a very knowledgable consultant, Richard Mak of AnalogMagik, who is himself a two La Platine owner. And below is some of his observations and experimentations:


1. Motor

Dave also opted to switch out the motor. Presently his is using the uber -expensive Dereneville motor. To make a long story short, he told me to stick with the original motor. 
While I had been complaining about sound drift and speed instabilities in the beginning of the thread, the turntable seemed to have attain some sort of balance? I occasionally check with the ol' Sutherland Timeline, and I am getting spot on reading. 
I have kept with the pure silk thread which is literally half the diameter of the regular linen thread. And I added neoprene spacers underneath the spindle. That is  all the tweaking that I have done. In my mind the motor is a non -issue now.


2. Suspension

Using Stillpoints and some other footers, Dave had defeated the suspension. And his listening experience was not positive. He claims that the 'sound' became very boring. In the end he went back to the original suspension with ebony spacers added underneath the original footers. 

While there are strong advocate of  non-suspended turntable, the issue really is the combined dynamic of the plinth/platter, motor and the coupling of the two with belt / thread. Thom at Galibier advocates non-suspension, but with tape coupling motor and platter. I wondered if the thread drive which is favored by most Verdier users might not benefit from the suspension as was the original design intent and as had be mentioned by Chris in earlier threads. 


3. Platform

The tweak with the biggest sonic benefit for the Verdier was the additional of an air-bearing platform by Dave. He currently uses a platform by the Chinese maker FFYX with improvements across the board. He now claims that the Verdier rivals the Techdas AF 1 no less. I prefer to take that as hyperbole, but he was quite serious. 


4. Arm pod

Please refer to this link for the beautiful custom arm boards he commissioned from Magna Audio in UK: Armboards, Pods & Plinths | magna-audio. They are so heavy he added spring suspension underneath the plinth as support. I am not quite clear if they may not be overkill, but.....

In any case, my take away from talking to Dave is that the original motor is sound ( perhaps a DC conversion may be an option ), don't defeat the suspension, and adding a good platform under the TT.

Hi Thom,

".. Some of this has to do with musical values - your perceptual framework and what in a musical performance your attention is drawn to, and we’re all different in this regard. I tend to listen to a lot of rhythmically complex music with interleaving musical lines, so dynamic behavior is important to me .."

You express the issue very well. It is about how we set our musical priorities.  I will experiment with a temporary suspension defeat using adjustable footers as my MDF plinth could use some help. Learn a bit about the SQ, and eventually investigate the motor. Your help, Thom, will be sought after.

The amount of knowledge and insights gained from this post with future insights yet to come, the informed discussions, sharing of experiences, and some criticisms of my Audio Nervosa have contributed greatly to the understanding of my vinyl front end and taught me what to listen to. What is coming out of the speakers now is far superior to that just some nine months ago! Given the whirlwind sweeping around us, this has turned out to be a safe harbor. 

Many thanks !

Hi @ledoux1238,

I hesitate to comment on other manufacturers’ products, unless the discussion is general in nature (design approaches, etc. and not better/worse). In the case of the SOTA, I’ve never played with it.

You have an excellent point about the two Verdier bases. Anytime a spring (resonant frequency) is a factor, it means that mass is a consideration (as well as the characteristics of the materials), so yes, Granito vs. MDF would indeed behave differently for all of these reasons.

My comment about locking down all suspension related to the resonant loop comprised of the motor drive, the "belt", and the base/platter. Subtle relative movements between the drive components can affect speed stability on the "micro" level I described earlier.

In this sense, any suspension in the loop, whether it be some "squishy" footers under the drive system, or springs under the turntable base/platter will have similar effects to that of a rubber belt.

The good news is that suspension under a fairly massive base like that of the Verdier is likely to have a smaller effect than that of a rubber belt due to the platter/base assembly being high mass, and "jiggling" quite a bit less (much less so than for example, a Linn turntable).

You may well find this to be continuum - that a bit of compliance will be the best compromise in your system. In general, I fall into the camp that less (suspension) is more.

Some of this has to do with musical values - your perceptual framework and what in a musical performance your attention is drawn to, and we’re all different in this regard. I tend to listen to a lot of rhythmically complex music with interleaving musical lines, so dynamic behavior is important to me.

My take is that when the urge to experiment strikes (and we all know that it occurs frequently with Verdier owners <grin>) that you play with taking as many "springs" out of your drive system as possible - as long as it’s reversible.

... Thom @ Galibier Design

Thom, thanks for your input. The new website info on the motor is very informative. I have a question:  The new generation motor is improved, it seems to me, on three fronts: better electronic circuitry, better power supply, and higher torque motor. How would your motor compare to a servo motor from SOTA / Roadrunner?

With regard to Issues on the plinth and its suspension, I believe we should treat the granito and MDF plinths really as two separate categories. @ct0517 has commented that the granito plinth and suspension work in tandem with optimal resonant qualities. As prior discussions by @perart1 has indicated there is a  clear resonance advantage of the ‘terrazzo ‘ plinth. However,  defeating the suspension on the MDF plinth is a way to address the resonance ‘defects’ inherent in the wooden base. I hope to get some confirmation on the particular point: that defeating the suspension really only works on the MDF plinths. And that is the one I own.

I missed this thread the first time around. Since we added more content to our drive system update page, we’ve unsurprisingly been fielding quite a few questions about Verdiers.

I caught a couple of comments above (one by @lewm) which is exactly what I advise folks to do. Remove as much compliance as you can from the system. In this case, it means footers and any other form of suspension.

If you have any sort of lossy link between the motor pod and the platter, you might as well be using a rubber belt. We’re way past rubber belts, aren’t we <grin>

I’m fairly confident that you’ll like the trade-off that locking everything down will yield (trading isolation for speed coupling) - whether it be suspension, aftermarket squishy footers, or anything else.

If you do it right, you’ll not only hear better pitch stability, but the harmonic content will be more rich (bowed cello, woodwinds, etc.), your upper frequencies be more pure, note attack and delineation of complex musical lines will suddenly make musical sense. In short, it’s mo’ better.

This is next level of speed stability (beyond simple wow & flutter). It addresses distortion products and the improved attributes noted above are your reward.

I’ve repaired a few Verdier drive systems over the years, and I like Ron Ploger’s motor mount fix. I prefer to take it one step further. Ron correctly advocates tightening up the isolation system in the motor mounts. I found eliminating it completely to be better yet.

On the Galibier web-site the motor from the previous generation, The Lecacy 2001-2013, was sited as very similar to the La Platine motor. However, the Verdier motor itself is high torque, low inertia, different from that employed by Thom Mackris. Both the Galibier and Derenville motors use electronic controls housed within the motor pod

Hi @ledoux1238 ...

Regarding our pre-2014 **drive system**, I was surprised (upon repairing my first Verdier) to see that he was using the **identical 3-pin regulator circuit** (an LM338T) that we implemented.

In retrospect, I shouldn’t have been. We pulled the circuit off the regulator’s datasheet, and obviously JC found his way there as well. That’s why they publish those circuits, so you can use them ;-)

Of course, our ergonomics (switching arrangement) differed, and we used battery power vs. rectified AC, but you knew that. Our motor was indeed lower torque than the Philips/Primotec. So, in total, the two **drive systems** are/were very similar.

Here’s a link to that drive system timeline that was mentioned: https://galibierdesign.com/drive-system-timeline/

... Thom @ Galibier Design

Peter,

My apologies for this late reply. I have been looking into motor options, SOTA, Galibier, Derenville, and GT Tron. Graham Tricker wrote that his motors are no longer available, except for some aluminium motor housings. On the Galibier web-site the motor from the previous generation, The Lecacy 2001-2013, was sited as very similar to the La Platine motor. However, the Verdier motor itself  is high torque, low inertia, different from that employed by Thom Mackris. Both the Galibier and Derenville motors use electronic controls housed within the motor pod while SOTA incorporates the Roadrunner servo control. 

In re-reading earlier posts on this thread, there are plenty of advocates of synergy between the stock motor and the platter / plinth assembly. I am back on the fence ( again ! ) regarding replacing the motor. I'll work a bit more to untap the potentials of the stock motor. 

ledoux1238

I think that If i felt that i needed to improve the stock motor i would look seriously at the Galibier as it is now in production. You could always fo for the Dereneville!!!!!! The motor of choice on WTBF. (said tongue in cheek). I tried the TW motor and there was little difference to the stock motor.

I think that i bought the last Callas kit and I am not sure that they will be made, and yes i am aware of what the kit is supposed to do. I will install it one of these days just to see. I have not heard of anyone commentating on the 'improvement' it brings. 

I can not think of any turntable that has been in continuous production for so long and not been 'improved' by the manufacturer. Its principles have benn copied and adapted by many.Linn have consistently been 'adding value' to their product over the years. With the advances in materials science and technology Verdier could have made the VP a more effective package. Their nouvelle platine has  had some development work done by auditorium23 with Verdier's involvement and blessing, but with a restriction that it should not be sold outside of Germany.

Peter

@ perart1 Would you consider selling the Callas Mod Kit?

ledoux,

Thanks for the feedback.
The Final Audio stuff is unobtainable now.
I prefer AC motors because they lock to frequency and error correction due to stylus drag is self induced and reasonably benign, whereas DC motors require constant monitoring and speed correction via some form of feedback system.

The reason for the proliferation of DC motors in TT’s is because they are cheap and speed controllers are cheap to build.

The SOTA eclipse package looks to be great value at the moment.
I’m pretty sure its a 3 phase AC motor with speed controller.
I have heard a TW Accustic motor sytem on a Micro Seiki 5000 and it didn’t seem to offer much improvement over the original.

With the recent interest in restoring idlers there are now many speed controllers available for the big AC motors eg Classic Turntable Coy, Longdog Audio etc. Since there are also now parts (bearings, bushes, coils remanufactured ) for Garrard motors they are possibilities.

@ perart1 The disparity between MDF and Granito plinth is very informative. Not much discussion here. I suppose the same goes for the arm board. Solid wood (ebony ) or wood / brass combination trumps the MDF arm board, I'd imagine. 

The Callas Mod Kit, I think, deals with more than the bearing. The following is a link to a review of the mod kit: 
https://www.callas-audio.nl/Callas%20Platine%20Mod%20Kit%20Review.pdf
The reviewer reports on one of the most important aspect of the mod kit: the ability to control the magnetic force asserted on the platter. This in turn increases the bass performance of the La Platine. The reviewer claims that the Continuum Audio Caliburn turntable in fact has magnetic repulsion similar to La Platine. But the designer, Mark Dohmann, incorporated a mechanism for controlling the magnetic forces. That was the partial reason for the exorbitant price of the Calibrun.

@ Dover, I appreciate your frank assessment of the La Platine MDF version. The discussions here have confirmed that it is a TT that requires multiple increments of tweaks and improvements. There are plenty of advocates for the original motor, however, I appreciate your calling out its defects. While I have not done the battery powered conversion nor any of the Callas Audio tweaks, I believe I fall in the camp calling for wholesale replacement of the motor. The question is which motor to replace it with. I am leaning toward a motor that will work the thread drive, SOTA, Galibier..or perhaps your Final audio?

@perart1 
I think we are on the same page. There is a lack of mechanical grunge that is where the Verdier shines over many other TT's. It has a very low noise floor. It is very enticing. I sold the Verdier to a friend who owned an SME20 and he was very happy - it was a big upgrade.
The main issue for me was the speed stability compared to my reference that I could never quite conquer, but there must be some answer.
My feeling would be to replace the motor with an ac hysteresis motor such as used in the old idlers. The standard Verdier motor is simply a small DC motor with an relatively loose power supply. I often thought the cheapest solution would be to use a Garrard motor or Empire motor with an appropriate speed controller. There are some great motors in the old idlers - the motor in my Pioneer broadcast idler is twice the size of the Garrard and substantially quieter. The AC motor used in the Final is roughly the same size as the Garrard, but you cant hear it running until your ear is about an inch away from the pulley and even then its only turbulence, no motor noise.

Hi Ledoux1238 and dover

When i bought the Verdier it came complete with GT's modifications so i was unable to compare it with a standard Verdier. However, I did add another GT Verdier with the MDF plinth and the difference was noticable. Precision and detail and impact ,especially on good piano recordings. The motor and battery supply dropped the noise floor with an increase in detail and attack. So, to answer your question, then yes the Granito resin particulate plinth is significantly better than the MDF.

The ebony feet that i had made replaced the pneumatic feet completely. They had a stepped profile to fit the recess in the plinth.

The use of the Townshend pods is a fairly recent addition. Initiated by a discussion with graham tricker who had used a Townshend platform under all his equipment, including his TW TT. He had made thicker plates for the tops of the platforms. We spent some time comparing the diference with and without the platforms. As I had Symposium Ultra platforms unde all my equipment I just went and bought the appropriate pods.  The effect in my system was immediate, with a perception of space and depth to the music. Probably due to the increased isolation and by placing the constrained damping below the platform rather than under the TT plinth.

I probably agree with most of dover's points, but as I bought my Verdier with most of the potential downsides of the Verdier addressed then there was little for me to 'put right'. 

The comment about the bearing is an interesting one. I would agree with the pont made and that the Callas mod kit recognises this (I actually have the kit but not installed). JC Verdier designed his bearing intentionally with larger tollerances than you would expect.He used a specific oil and used it to incorporate a braking effect on the platter. He could certainly have done it differently if he wanted to. Also the original design did not include the steel ball at the top of the bearing on whch the platter can rest. The ball does a couple of things; provides a ground path for vibrationy/energy transfer and makes settling the platter easier. And,  yes, by varying the weight of the platter on the ball it does have an impact on the lower frequencies of the misic.

I think that the verdier is capable of great things; in particular it can be an extremely neutral transducer. It neither adds nor subtracts information. Very few TT do that. Having lived with a Goldmund Reference, Rockport, Garard 301, Well tempered Signature and Simon York S7 in the past I am now happy to live with what i have got.

so happy listening to everyone