2020 update : JC Verdier La Platine

@mtemur Wow! Kondo all the way, very impressive.

I have two additional questions:

1. I like very much your cartridge collection, not the least because compared to the Overture amp and GE-1 phono stage, they are decidedly 'modest'. I wondered what is your thinking on using 'entry' level cartridges? 

2. I had a damaged SME V which was returned to SME for refurbishment. What I got back, as far as I can tell, was a brand new arm! And I have decided to keep it. Any advice on how to optimize the arm with the TT? I see Kondo wiring throughout. 

Thanks!

@dover , @ mtemur, Vintage Cartridge 'fallacy' is duly noted. Thanks!

@phantom_av Can you describe your  set up, what kind of thread / belt? if thread, are you using the original? how tightly / loosely are you applying it to the platter? what is the distance between center of platter to motor spindle? 

The reason for the questions is that speed fluctuation was an issue for me a few years back. But I now use a pure silk or a viscose thread, experimented with thread tension, and motor distance to platter. I am not bothered by speed fluctuation as the music flows so much better. I guess if you have experimented and things are still no better, then you are much more sensitive to speed than I. If you have not experimented, I would suggest you try. 

I do believe the most 'cost effective' motor option is the SOTA Eclipse. I have written to Donna at SOTA to confirm the supplied spindle will work with threads. 

The one area of the La Platine that I had assumed to be the weak link was the motor. There are numerous posts of using motors from Teres, TW Acustic, Galibier...etc as replacements. I had encountered noticeable pitch drift while listening to music with piano and violin playing. Using a Sutherland Light Strobe, I was never able to get a consistent strobe reading of 33.3 RPM. It usually drifts. Sometimes it would be very 8 rotation before it hits 33.3 RPM. In an effort to improvement matter, a Jasmine motor with an Origin Live belt was used as a test. The Jasmine motor was an not an outright improvement. Certain aspect of the music, such as the bass, seemed more stable or maybe just different. Then I started asking on the Audiogon Forum about possible thread replacement. And that is where things got interesting. 

The more valuable advice was not just the type of thread ( and thread is better than belt ), but the way the thread is applied between the platter and the motor spindle. The application requires that the thread be just tight enough to not lip while maintaining the correct speed. The idea, as I understand it,  is to allow the least among of lateral force on the platter. I, of course, had been doing the opposite -- applying as much tension as possible. This is such a subtle adjustment of the thread drive. But no more pitch drift. 

The advice came from Chris @ct0517. And apparently this is through direct conversation with the late Mr. Verdier! The design intent of using the low inertia Philips motor with the thread was well thought out. And I for one will no longer think of it as the weak link. It just required a little patience from the user. 

In the past two weeks, I have spent a lot of time refining the thread drive and doing more re-search on the La Platine. There has certainly been much discussions here and other forums on the thread drive, motor, the magnetic platter..etc It occurs to me that the title of the thread given, 2020 update, may not be the most appropriate. 

The turntable itself has had no upgrades or revisions since the introduction of the MDF ( black ) plinth, from the original terrazzo, in the late 1980's. In effect there is no update to speak of. More appropriately, this is more a re-acquaintance and re-learning. The turntable was acquired in the early 2000's, used for three years, put in storage, and returned to service in late 2018, What I have learnt is that if the La Platine is optimized, or operated as it was intended, then it can be a powerful neutral platform for the delicate interaction of the cartridge and the tonearm. 

In order to optimize its operation, I experimented with the thread drive.  The idea is to allow a minimal of interaction between thread and platter while maintaining consistent speed.  This in theory allows the inertia of platter and the braking forces of the oiled spindle to interact optimally. The platter is 6 cm in height and weighs 16 kg. There are at least three variables: the height of the thread placed to the side of the platter, the type of thread used and the distance between motor spindle and the center of platter. The most obvious optimization is the thread height. The lower the thread is on the side of the platter the better. Acting on the platter's  lower center of gravity allows less wobble. And this should be the optimal application to other TTs with heavy platters. This is easily audible with a tighter soundstage. The three types of threads used are: the stock thread, Gutermann Rayon 40, a viscose thread, and YLI pure silk thread.  Both after market threads are thinner than stock thread with the intent of allowing minimal action. I would say the different threads to my ear offered different sound signatures, The stock thread has a taut, lively sound, while the pure silk thread more laid back. There were no winners. As for the placement of the motor to platter, I used distances of 40 cm, 60 cm, and 90 cm. I would have guessed that the further the distance, the better the sonic benefits. However,  I could not hair differences. I may have to revisit in the future.

The present set up for the La Platine is the use of YLI silk thread, with the motor  spindle 60 cm from  center of platter, and thread placed 3 mm from the bottom of the platter. The music that has been produced from vinyl is the best yet experienced. I have come to appreciate the vinyl play back as a co-operative effort between the turntable, the tonearm and the cartridge. It really is a team effort. Each has to be optimized for the other to play their part and sound their best. I have done some work towards optimizing the turntable. The play and influence of the Trans-Fi Terminator arm and a ZYX ultimate 1000 on the music becomes very apparent. The differences in recording, the adjustment of the VTA and azimuth..etc. Slight changes in each variable are immediately heard in the play back. 

I had a ZYX air 3 ( $ 3,000 ) mounted on a SME V arm ( $ 6,000 ) in the early 2000's set up. The arm + cartridge combo now is around $ 2,500. By most measure this would seem like a down-grade and not an up-grade. However,  the SQ is far superior. I now believe that it is the turntable, tonearm and cartridge in descending order of importance. 

A final word on the La Platine motor: Using a Sutherland Speed Strobe to measure the speed of the table, I have been unable to  achieve constant 33.3 RPM on each rotation. Typically, there would be a  4-5 rotation drift before returning to 33.3 RPM.  Speed is consistent, but not constant at 33.3 RPM. A future project will be perhaps the introduction of a Speed controller, something that SOTA is now offering with its Total Eclipse Package with the Roadrunner.  

Chris, I have a thing for speed. :)

It must have been a video like the one linked by @chakster that got me hooked. I had always assumed that it was plus & minus 33.3, until I saw otherwise. Please allow my indulgence. 

But all kidding aside, with the thread drive as is, there is no drift in playback from strings or piano. I am relaxed. The on/off and plucking tests have all been confirmed. Initially, I was quite skeptical about leaving the thread loose. But having implemented it at your suggestion, it works! On more than one occasion, the platter would not move when I turn on the motor. I looked around only to find that the thread had slipped. Whether it was due to humidity or temperature or both, it showed that the thread was barely hanging on. 

This is, indeed, not a plug 'n play devise.  All the variables you mentioned are integral to the workings of the 'table which I have come to realize and appreciate.

Cool looking SP-10 MK II mod. I have been following a NZ forum with a step by step documentation of a SP10 MKII mod:
https://darklanternforowen.wordpress.com/2020/01/04/technics-sp-10mkii-turntable-pt-4-what-weve-learnt-so-far/. 
A direct drive will definitely be a future 'thing' for me.  BTW, I am contemplating a ET arm, maybe for next year. I'll be seeking advice from you then.

@chakster Thanks for the link. I remember using the strobe when my wife came into the room enquiring what I was up to. I explained. And her first reaction was ' Why isn't it dead on? '. The only thing I could come up with was, ' It's the French, they are not German.' It's a terrible stereotype, I know. But I really cannot imagine a German, or Swiss, 'table, with so many variables. 

@lewm You have a good point about contact surface. However, as I understand it, we  want a small  contact surface for the least amount on pull while maintaining consistent speed. This would be the opposite of what you are suggesting?

The top heavy 'table with wobbly bottom analogy is well taken. How do I defeat the suspension? By simply adding solid footers as you suggest? I believe @ct0517 commenting on this issue on one of the other threads. Chris, did I remember correctly? 

@lbelchev Regarding the 'braking' action,  Let me rephrase so that I understand correctly. The 'brake' is provided by the viscosity of the oil acting between the axle and the bearing. As there is no vertical force acting on the plinth from the heavy platter due to the replusing magnets, the viscosity of the oil acts as a correcting lateral force to stylus drag. If this is the correct understanding of the 'braking' action then it may explain the drift in playback that I had heard. You see, I had thought the oil as merely a lubricant, so before reading the documents on braking, I had not bothered to replenish the oil reserve. Big mistake!

You mentioned the CS Port LFT1 where the platter floats on air rather than magnets. And it also uses a low inertia motor like the La Platine. The specification given for motor speed accuracy is +- 0.3%. That's between 33.3999 and 33.200, certainly not 33.333333. And that would be the point raised by you and Chris, no need to sweat over 'absolute' speed accuracy. Well taken.

I do have a few questions:

1. The CS Port LFT1 looks like a non-suspension plinth design, with a very heavy slate plinth. The actual resonance control is taken up by the air bearing, whereas the La Platine uses pneumatic footers. If as suggested by @lewm we defeat the pneumatic footers with solid blocks, then there would be no resonance controlling mechanism in the La Platine, as the magnets will not be serving that function. would that be correct?

2. Do you think the use of a low inertia motor only works with a design that decouples the platter from the plinth, either through air or magnets?

3. The CS Port LFT1 is a low flow low pressure design in both its LT arm and platter. Well, the Terminator LT arm on my La Platine is also low flow low pressure. Does that mean I have a poor man's LFT1? He He!

@xdr A few questions:
1. Were you using the thread drive before?
2. Will the motor spindle on the SOTA Eclipse accommodate a thread drive? I believe the reduction in W&F reading is due to the belt acting on the platter.
3. Have you tried a tape drive offered by Galibier, say?
4. Does the motor come with its own housing or do you have to build one? I meant to write to SOTA, but never got around to it.
5. What arm and cartridge are you using?
6. Would you say the sonic improvements were across the board and immediately noticeable?

 @lewm Mr Verdier did indeed mention the braking as an integral part of his turntable. I assume for both La Platine and Novelle platine. And I assume the braking is achieved through the rubbing action of the oil in the spindle / shaft assembly, the viscosity of oil. Given that the Thoren was his inspiration, for me this is where it gets confusing. The Thoren is an idler drive table. Presumably the braking action should work on any drive system, idler,  belt,  thread...etc.  However,   @c0517 seems to indicate that it is a thread drive only proposition? Or does it work best on thread drive?  And he doesn’t even use the oil, so what causes the braking? It’s seems to me a bit of weird science! 

I would assume that adding oil to the spindle is the key. It is a lubricant. But with the magnetic decoupling of  the platter from the plinth, it also produces the necessary friction for the braking action. 

@topoxforddoc I don't know if GT Audio still sells the battery PSU. It doesn't show up on its web-site. I assume you had to modify the stock motor housing ( drilling  few holes ) for the connecting cables, correct?

Callas Audio also provided schematics and instruction DIY a battery PSU many years ago. It is the one that I will most likely build with the help of a technician.

@xdr Greatly appreciate your responses. It’s great to visualize through photos of your system the SOTA / Roadrunner in action. I see a belt drive, but it can be switched to a thread drive, correct?

You have a lovely system / room, with lots of French stuff unknown to me...... except, of course, the French TT. I especially like your spartan listening chair. I have a Garbriele Mucchi’s Genni chair myself.

@lohanimal Yes, speed still drifts. Some days when the gods, temperature and humidity aligns, I get a few sides of records with speed spot on. I am, however,  enjoying music.

Graham Tricker will be on my list of people to query. I somehow remember that he used to carry JC verdier TT’s. And he dropped the brand when he took on TW  Acustic, implying that La Platine was not comparable to the German tables. 

I look forward to your DD table project.

While I have been experimenting with the stock motor / thread drive , I decided to try something else. For the last 2 1/2 weeks, I switched out the stock motor with a Jasmine ( high torque?) motor and Origin Live belt. The behavior of the platter to this belt drive obviously is quite different. Platter starts and stops much faster, it’s interaction with the motor much more immediate. My initial listening impression was a more stable bass image within the soundstage. Not a dramatic difference but different enough. I deicided to keep the belt drive for two weeks. 
Three days ago I switched back again to the thread drive / stock motor. What I assumed was an improvement on the bass front with the belt drive, turned out not so dramatic. In addition, with the return of  the thread drive, the air around instruments and the sense of the venue were all that much more palpable, that much more ‘real’. While I still don’t quite understand the workings of the thread drive and braking, I can attest that it sounds better than after market belt drive.
I still believe a thread drive with a servo motor that monitors speed stability, e.g. SOTA and Roadrunner, may  be worth investigating down the road. 

A final thought on light strobe. I feel that it is a  measuring tool, like the use of a ruler for  distances, or a Fozameter for sound separation. It’s objective!  Now Lederman of SoundSmith prefers cartridges with a left / right channel differential. That’s subjective. I have no argument with someone’s listening preferences, especially when the the analog sound produced is comparable to reel- to reel.  But we ought to assume that speed stability is one of the criteria for achieving such a sound quality. If that is not the case, that speed stability doesn’t matter,  I would still like to the what the measurable
deviations were. 

The undisputed aspect with the La Platine is the magnetic bearing, allowing the platter to rotate while being decoupled. The idea was what attracted me. Having acquired it, it is the execution of the idea that truly intrigued. The metallurgy and the assembly involved are its distinguishing qualities. 

The drive system was the second aspect that required study. Through informed opinions by members of this forum and experimentation, I have come to the following conclusion: the drive material with the least surface area is the best. This translate to the least amount of friction produced by the drive material. And this preserves the inherent braking action of the platter to counteract stylus drag. Thread drive therefore is the best.  Of the threads used, pure silk from YLI was the best, the stock linen ( ? ) thread the least preferred. The silk thread produced a more 'continuous' soundstage with more 'air ' around instruments.

The motor is presently the most troubling aspect. And it has to do with speed stability. I performed a test suggested by @ct0517 observing the number of rotations before the platter comes to a complete stop by firstly turning off the motor and secondly by cutting the thread while still running. This test confirms that the platter is not in a state of free, un-restraint rotation. A braking action is designed into the platter shaft assembly to counteract stylus drag. I then performed the same test, but this time with a high torque Jasmine motor. The results are very similar. This tells me that  a change in motor would not disturb the inherent braking action of the platter. I believe if one were to change a motor system for the La Platine, it has to be compatible with the thread drive. The spindle head of the stock Philips, low torque, motor is coming into contact with the same thread as on the platter side. While the low friction on the platter works to preserve the braking action, the same low friction on the spindle head does not work to preserve speed stability. The stock motor has a different setting for thread and belt drive. The original motor design acknowledges that different material drive with require a different electronic control. And I feel it is the electrics of the motor assembly that is at fault for speed instability. I somehow think that a motor with a servo system works best. But in the thread drive ultra-high end Japanese CS Port Lft1 turntable, it specifically uses a high torque non-servo motor. On the motor front, I am still researching. However, this in no way affect my admiration for the TT and my enjoyment of music produced through it.

There is one other aspect that I have read very little about: the plinth. I have the black MDF plinth. I would like to know more about the Granito plinth. Somehow the combination of concrete, raisin, and stone chips doesn't seem to be a good resonance damper. I would like to be enlightened. 

@vuckovic  Some of your tweaks and preferences are quite different from mine. But as my last post indicated, this is a TT that seems to invite differences of operational preferences. 

Using the stock motor with a custom Delrin pulley to accomodate a tape drive is novel to me. I had thought that thread drive with a more accurate motion was the way to go. 

The most interesting is your spindle ball comments. The interaction of the ball with the platter would take some force off the magnetic repulsion,  increasing bass performance and overall dynamics. This is consistent with a review I read regarding the Callas Audio Mod Kit. The Mod Kit was used to reduce the magnetic levitation forces in order to improve bass performance. The reviewer also made reference to the The Caliburn table with similar principles. 

Finally, as one who owns both the Airforce 3 and the La Platine, I wondered if you might share some thoughts of the two table. I started this post because a local audio dealer mentioned that nowadays given a choice between a La Platine and a TechDas, his clients mostly prefers the latter. He thought that was a pity as the La Platine was as worthy a TT. I would appreciate some insights.

@lbelchev Thank you for pointing out my mistake. I believe it is not the only one I have made. See below.

@audioquest4life I had thought I understood the braking action. Because of your question, I took a look again at the comment on a past thread by @ct0517 :

"If you actually cut the thread with scissors I am willing to bet it stops in much less than 7.5 revolutions as it is the same friction principle as the magnetically levitated Platine but using oil instead"

The comment described first turning off the motor and observing the number of rotations before the platter comes to a complete stop. It requires 7.5 rotations / revolutions. This is consistent with what I observed on my TT, anywhere from 7.25- 7.75 revolutions. 

However, when I remove the thread with the motor running ( i didn't actually cut the thread ), I observe about 20 + revolutions before the platter comes to a complete stop. The comment above seems to indicate that the platter should stop with maybe 3-4 revolutions and that would supposedly show the 'braking action'. My TT did not behave as such. The 20 + revolutions on my TT is more likely the platter coming to a stop due to a natural loss of rotational inertia, rather any 'braking' action of the spindle and shaft.

So in short, I am realising that my TT did not exhibit the supposed braking that was observed by others. But then again, having such a heavy platter come to a complete stop within 3-4 revolutions while in free rotation would indicate some heavy forces acting on it. That force is not present on my TT. I must have made a mistake in proclaiming that I have understood the braking of the platter on a La Platine. I may again need to be enlightened.

@vuckovic You are right, no point in selling the La Platine. 

As a total aside, I noticed that you are using a Herron VTPH-2a. As I am in the process to searching for a phono stage, I wondered if you would share some thoughts on it? 

@vuckovic Thank you for that concise summary of the AF3. It solves a year old curiosity about the sonic differences between it and La Platine. Rereading reviews of the AF3, I am struck by the contrast between the two. With the AF3, you are operating in highly controlled environment. There is even provision for a spacer dictating the correct distance between motor and plinth! And despite the sonic advantages of the AF3, you have decided to keep the La Platine. I think it speaks more for the French deck. And you are right, I won't be saving up for the AF3.

I am still in the tweaking phase. And in my last post, I have serious doubt as to a substantial 'braking' force acting on the platter. The platter is  spinning on its own inertia if not acted upon by any drive material. In order to allow the platter to do its thing, there should be as minimal a force acting on it as possible. This is what you have found with the loose drive material and short distance between motor and platter. This observation is consistent with mine.

What is most interesting is your arriving at better SQ with the tape drive. Tape has the best combination of least friction and better control of the platter? Definitely an avenue worthy of exploration. I was going to investigate a Tron motor, but perhaps a Delrin pulley or a Galibier motor using tape drive? 

@dover Your post should be underlined with 'It's the motor, stupid!'. I have reluctantly come to this only very lately. 

@ct0517 Chris, thanks for that short excursion into your analog world. I find your table fascinating. Even more so, your experimentations on the ET 2.5 are inspirational!!

@vuckovic Thank you again for the insight into the Herron and the Lamm. 

I have been tore away from the La Platine experiments since my MFA Luminescence crashed with a soft 'thud' three weeks ago. This happens every four to five months with my beloved pre-amp. I have come to accept its idiosyncrasies. However, this past occurrence has led to a complete rethink. After much consternation, I have opted to go with a Lightspeed Passive Attenuator and still in search of a phono preamp. Hence my interest in your thoughts on the Herron.

@junk981 What is the motor that you are using? 

@vuckovic and @junk981 In corresponding to Thom Mackris of Galibier Design, he advised to defeat the suspension of the La Platine in order to use the tape drive with his motor. Since you are both using tape drive, is there a problem with the tape staying on the pulley?

@mijostyn Thanks for your advice. I have moved onto a Trans- Fi Terminator Linear tracking arm from the SME V. As mentioned elsewhere, the LT arm is far superior.

Regarding my pre-amp, MFA Lumi, situation, I hope it will not cause a distraction from the topic at hand. However, it is integral to the analog chain, and I could seriously use your help / opinion, so please bear with me. I have Lumi A1 or A2, with two transformers in the PSU as opposed to four in the B-2c series. In my correspondence with Scott Frankland, he regarded the B series as the 'most advanced'.

@vuckovic '...Lumi is still the world class preamp!...'
The high regard given to the Lumi, I believe, is primarily for its phono performance. With the La Platine / Trans- Fi / ZYX entry level cartridge combo, the soundstage bleeds right out of the sides of the ET LFT-8b's. The depth, layering, and 3 dimensionality ..etc are quite something, hence my push on the TT front to get more. Instinctively, I know the Lumi will not only keep step, but is driving the herd. 

While I only listen to cds' 20% of the time, the listening experience is very different. Not unpleasant, but everything is scaled down, the 'stage is restricted, resolution is down, and I am straining to hear the ambience of the venue...etc. The thinking was that the culprit lies with the vintage Wadia 16 until about a month ago. As the Lumi was sent for repairs, I decided to plug the Wadia directly into the Von Gaylords Nirvana mono's. With its own digital volume control, I was listening to a more resolved, more transparent, and slightly larger soundstage presentation. It seems clear that the Lumi line stage was the issue.

I wonder if your audio buddies or @lewm can confirm the disparity between the line and phono stages in the Lumi? If not, then I really need to get it fixed by Scott!!

@lewm What have you moved on to after the Lumi and why the regret?

For now, I am leaning towards using The Lumi strictly as a phono preamp through the Lightspeed Passive Attenuator. In other word, keep the goodness of Lumi and optimize elsewhere. This passive device is proving to be quite something and a subject for another post.  @lewm I think you are skeptical of this one. 

Hi Lew,
'...The reason I regret selling the luminescence is purely related to my high regard for it as a classic piece of audio design. But you can’t keep everything. ...'

Thanks for that clarification. I think it expresses my sentiment quite aptly. The Lumi  has been a treasured piece of classic. I guess I am moving on with age and in the process of pursuing other sonic priorities. 

' . I would guess that the line stage of the luminescence adds 15 to 20 DB of gain to the signal it receives from the phono section. Can you live without that? ' 

Hmmm......George recommends 60 db min and 500 ohm max from source. The MC cartridge in use is .48 mv. I may be okay, but will try when the Lumi returns.

@vuckovic  I think both you and Lew have made very similar points about the Lumi, i.e. vintage sound but may not be the ultimate sonic expression in many areas. I had suspected that to be the case, and now confirmed by those who know and my own listening experience. My regard for the Luminescence is quite intact, nevertheless. 

@mijostyn I will observe once vinyl playback is in operation. 

With regard to the La Platine or La Nouvelle, does anyone recall any other TT where the drive system, the motor, and the plinth suspension are  all subject to tweaks and experimentation? Clearly, those who expound that the original thread drive, motor, and suspension have enough integrity for continued use would frown upon the tape drive, after market motor, and suspension-less plinth crowd. Between the purist, the agnostics, and the undecided, I fall into the third group. 

Having experimented with various threads and belts, and concluding on the superiority of thread, tape drive enthusiasts appears, claiming improved sonics no less. The aftermarket motor crowd were well documented before starting this post. But the suspension-defeat methodology was new. @vuckovic I don't know how I missed your use of the Stillpoints on your first post. 

Seriously, can anyone think of another turntable system that is so 'open sourced'? Somehow the SP-10's or the Denon DP's are not quite the same.  The drive systems are refurbished and used as intended. I find the 'rainbow' spectrum of JC Verdier turntable owners to be quite  fascinating!  

@junk981 

1.  Are you maintaining the pneumatic suspension on the plinth while using the tape drive?
2. What kind of tape are you using?
3. Have you tried shortening the tape drive with a closer motor to plinth distance? 
4. Keeping the tape on the very lower portion of the platter seems to be the consensus regardless of drive material.
5. I notice that you have the SS Strain Gauge  on the Thales. Have you tried the SS on the Schroeder Ref. ?

Nice setup ! 

@dracule1  I think Ming Su is still the US dealer for JC Verdier. I bought mine in 2003 from Ming through Audiogon. Ming  also reps  Goto Horn speakers from Japan and his contact is : info@goto-unit.com.

@dracule1 It's a bit of a mystery. On a Stereo Times' review of the La Nouvelle sometime after 2014, Sorasound is listed as the US distributor. However, the La Platine does not show up on Sorasound's web-site. And I afraid I no longer have Ming's contact. 

Maybe writing directly to France is the best bet? Would someone in the know chime in?

@phantom_av Your description of the SP10R is much appropriated, a world class table that is ‘ plug and play’, not the tweaking Verdier. Fortunately for me, I am a boring person with really only one expensive hobby, so no other endeavors require funding. However, I have a self imposed moratorium on audio purchase this year ( tweaks no included ), the sale of your SP10R is really bad timing for me. 

I do want to mention that I have the habit of keeping the Verdier on the entire duration of the listening session, several hours at a time. I start by using a strobe, and letting the Verdier run faster than 33.3rpm, drop the needle and make the necessary adjustments. Granted every record affect speed differently, but I hear less speed fluctuations, or so it seems.

The AnologMagik kit has been reported quite extensively by our local audio community. Up til now, I had the mistaken impression that cartridge alignment was its only use. Rereading a local blog, track 3 on the test record does indeed deal with TT speed as well as wow / flutter. In a way, your finding should not be that much of a surprise? The magnetic bearing is La Platine’s main feature. If the table is leveled, the bearing tolerances correctly executed, then two spinning magnets should maintain ‘absolute’ horizontality, or at least provide the least deviation from horizontal. That was my simple logic when I first set eyes on the TT. And now your result bears it out. 

You mentioned other TT such as Techdas. In my recent fiddling with my air bearing tonearm, I have found the control of air fluctuations is a real issue. Adding additional surge tanks, help enormously to smooth out air fluctuations, improve air flow and henc SQ. An air bearing TT like the the Techdas  might not offer the best wow / flutter performance as the control of air pressure / fluctuation is essential but a bit more work than magnets, I would think.

 I have a few questions:

1. On the La Platine that measured .046%, you mentioned that the magnets are centered and perfectly aligned. Aren’t all La Platine like that? And the pneumatic suspension has been defeated with a static suspension? Sorry, but I don’t understand the nature of that particular La Platine.

2. Regarding speed stability, are you in favor of a servo speed controller, like the Roadrunner ?

3. This question is an aside. I am wondering about the use AnologMagik to optimize SRA / VTA. I have fallen into the camp where VTA is adjusted for every record played as the Trans Fi Terminator allows for VTA on the fly. Adjustments on the AnalogMagik is a one time thing. How does it account for record thickness, hence variations in SRA?

As I had mentioned, a local audio reviewer did an extensive, photo by photo, presentation of the adjustments through AnalogMagik  for VTF, azimuth..etc, as they appear on the screen of his laptop. The time consuming nature of the process was palpable. And several adjustments, I think especially on azimuth, he could only get close to the optimal settings. However, for all parameters, he concluded that, the software created  better sound quality across the board than his previous efforts, presumably by ear. 

@mtemur As you have confirmed, AnalogMagik is a sophisticated piece of software. And its great to have you share your results. What does your analog setup consists of ?

In the past few months, I have made seriously effort to recalibrate and re-engage the tonearm / cartridge set up process. Due to the sloppiness  of my previous efforts, some of the La Platine speed issues, may very well be setup errors on my part. I am less concerned with the speed related issues or the motor. When properly set up, the micro-dynamics coming out of vinyl is quite something. 

@metmur

on the other hand EMT TSD15N SFL may not have top price tag but I won't call it entry level. 

I surely did not mean to imply disrespect for the classic TSD 15. I applaud your choice of cartridge. Unfortunately, my precent current mode phono stage will not accommodate the 24 ohm inner impedance of the EMT. However, I do run a ZYX Ultimate 100. Would you offer a quick comparison of the two?

On the Cartridge end, I have been persuaded by the opinion that vintage cartridges from the 70's and 80's are comparable in quality to the some of today's more expensive offerings. One of the project right now is to seek out a vintage cartridge, something like an Ortofon MC 2000, to pair with the SME V.

if you ever do change it with Kondo please consider owning SL-115 headshell cables and Ls41 armcable too.

Yes, there will be the eventual direction I'd go. Thanks!

Also, I am quite interested in how you ended with the La Platine ?

@barbapapa Thanks for the update. According to a post by @ct0517, it retails for $13,995 in the US. I seem to remember purchasing it for closer to the its present French domestic retail price.

Did you ever get the Trans-Fi Terminator?

The venerable J Gordon Holt reviewed the MC 2000 for Stereophile in 1985. The cartridge, if NOS, would be at least 20 years old. 
My interest with this super low output cartridge is due to a recent acquisition of a current mode phono stage, Channel D Lino C 2.0. It  seems a perfect candidate to run through the Lino.

@lewm Would you happen to know the input impedance of the cartridge? And how are you amplifying the darn thing?

Hi Peter

Very nice write up for all the relevant components of the La Platine. A lot of information, and I did peak into the link from Audio Qualia which is new to me. The Magna Audio and Galibier Design sites, I am familiar, but never knew the ebony feet was meant for the La Platine. And It was a good surprise to see the motor - control from Galibier finally ready to be adapted to the La Platine. But at $2,999, a bit stiff for me. 

Your posts raised more questions, for me, than it answers. I’d like to fire a few and hope to learn more:

1. When you got the TT did it come with  Tron’s Battery powered motor only? Were you ever able to compare the ‘stock’ motor with it? There are quite a few reports of the sonic improvement of Tron’s battery powered motor here. Would like to have you elaborate more, if possible?

2. The Discussion on plinth material on the Audio Qualia site is very involved. It does seem that the research conducted favor resin as one of the optimal plinth material. And does that mean the LaPlatine produced by Auditorium23 with the resin / terrazzo plinth has better resonance characteristic and therefore sounds better tag the MDF ones? I know that @ct0517 who has commented here has the ‘ granite ‘ version, and touts the superiority of his deck. So granite deck better than mdf?

3. I don’t understand how the ebony feet from Magna Audio, which are beautiful btw, are attached ? Do you remove the existing aluminum feet by unscrewing? And what are the sonic benefits?

4. You have replaced the footers of the Symposium platform with Townshend pods. Why? That combination had occurred to me before, however, I had thought the Symposium couplers and the platform work in tandem?

I could go on, as you post provides much curiosity. I stop for now and waiting clarifications.

@ perart1 Would you consider selling the Callas Mod Kit?

@ perart1 The disparity between MDF and Granito plinth is very informative. Not much discussion here. I suppose the same goes for the arm board. Solid wood (ebony ) or wood / brass combination trumps the MDF arm board, I'd imagine. 

The Callas Mod Kit, I think, deals with more than the bearing. The following is a link to a review of the mod kit: 
https://www.callas-audio.nl/Callas%20Platine%20Mod%20Kit%20Review.pdf
The reviewer reports on one of the most important aspect of the mod kit: the ability to control the magnetic force asserted on the platter. This in turn increases the bass performance of the La Platine. The reviewer claims that the Continuum Audio Caliburn turntable in fact has magnetic repulsion similar to La Platine. But the designer, Mark Dohmann, incorporated a mechanism for controlling the magnetic forces. That was the partial reason for the exorbitant price of the Calibrun.

@ Dover, I appreciate your frank assessment of the La Platine MDF version. The discussions here have confirmed that it is a TT that requires multiple increments of tweaks and improvements. There are plenty of advocates for the original motor, however, I appreciate your calling out its defects. While I have not done the battery powered conversion nor any of the Callas Audio tweaks, I believe I fall in the camp calling for wholesale replacement of the motor. The question is which motor to replace it with. I am leaning toward a motor that will work the thread drive, SOTA, Galibier..or perhaps your Final audio?

Peter,

My apologies for this late reply. I have been looking into motor options, SOTA, Galibier, Derenville, and GT Tron. Graham Tricker wrote that his motors are no longer available, except for some aluminium motor housings. On the Galibier web-site the motor from the previous generation, The Lecacy 2001-2013, was sited as very similar to the La Platine motor. However, the Verdier motor itself  is high torque, low inertia, different from that employed by Thom Mackris. Both the Galibier and Derenville motors use electronic controls housed within the motor pod while SOTA incorporates the Roadrunner servo control. 

In re-reading earlier posts on this thread, there are plenty of advocates of synergy between the stock motor and the platter / plinth assembly. I am back on the fence ( again ! ) regarding replacing the motor. I'll work a bit more to untap the potentials of the stock motor. 

Thom, thanks for your input. The new website info on the motor is very informative. I have a question:  The new generation motor is improved, it seems to me, on three fronts: better electronic circuitry, better power supply, and higher torque motor. How would your motor compare to a servo motor from SOTA / Roadrunner?

With regard to Issues on the plinth and its suspension, I believe we should treat the granito and MDF plinths really as two separate categories. @ct0517 has commented that the granito plinth and suspension work in tandem with optimal resonant qualities. As prior discussions by @perart1 has indicated there is a  clear resonance advantage of the ‘terrazzo ‘ plinth. However,  defeating the suspension on the MDF plinth is a way to address the resonance ‘defects’ inherent in the wooden base. I hope to get some confirmation on the particular point: that defeating the suspension really only works on the MDF plinths. And that is the one I own.

Hi Thom,

".. Some of this has to do with musical values - your perceptual framework and what in a musical performance your attention is drawn to, and we’re all different in this regard. I tend to listen to a lot of rhythmically complex music with interleaving musical lines, so dynamic behavior is important to me .."

You express the issue very well. It is about how we set our musical priorities.  I will experiment with a temporary suspension defeat using adjustable footers as my MDF plinth could use some help. Learn a bit about the SQ, and eventually investigate the motor. Your help, Thom, will be sought after.

The amount of knowledge and insights gained from this post with future insights yet to come, the informed discussions, sharing of experiences, and some criticisms of my Audio Nervosa have contributed greatly to the understanding of my vinyl front end and taught me what to listen to. What is coming out of the speakers now is far superior to that just some nine months ago! Given the whirlwind sweeping around us, this has turned out to be a safe harbor. 

Many thanks !

@thekong and @pindac The fact that you gentlemen responded to the SP10's in divergent ways points is very interesting: in the end to are affected by sound in very different ways.  However, I am wondering if there is a DD in general, or SP10 in particular, sound signature that you can point to that sets it apart from the Verdier. I have read about the DD sound or the idler sound, more attack, dynamic, ..etc. There must be a lowest common denominator in the SP10 sound signature that sets it apart. And therefore it appeals to most with a few detractors. Just curious,

@richardkrebs Thanks, Ricahrd for your insight, torque spec. ..etc.  My exploits will most definitely not scale the heights of K3 territory.  But from your description of the motor / controller search, it was truly a project from the gound up. 

@phantom_av  Please take a look at the SOTA Eclipse. SOTA has recently developed its own power supply that will run both the Condor motor and the Roadrunner. 

For my part, after a brief search on motors,  I will as a first step embark on a project to convert the existing motor control  into a battery operated one. May be the mostcost effective option to improve on the SQ . 

@thekong  longdog audio

@thekong I preface by saying I am really quite lost AC vs DC. However, in the case of SOTA Eclipse the Condor motor control is driving a 3 phase DC motor ( ? ). And the Longdog audio LDA is designed to drive an AC motor (? ).  According to Nick, the existing Verdier DC Philips motor cannot be controlled by the LDA, hence a search for an AC motor if I go this route. 

 

@richardkrebs Richard, given the issue at hand, the search for an after market motor / controller to drive a 18kg platter on magnetic bearing on the Verdier deck, how would you advice? 

@phantom_av 

Thanks for the update. Dereneville motors are indeed expensive as wth the rest of its line of TTs' and tonearms. 

Regarding upgrades, I am looking at a air-bearing isolation platform for the Verdier rather than go the motor route. And I will update when appropriate.

What arm and cartridge are on your Verdier?

 

@vinylvalet 

Would you care to give a breif discription on SQ improvement going from the Verdierto the Walker? I have read much in the drop of noise floor and the immense soundstage of the Walker.

 

 @phantom_av Last checked, The Walker Proscenium is in its 6th iteration. But I seem to recall it’s price tag always hovered close to / above $100k. So if going from a Verdier to an early Walker was a ‘lateral move’, that’s quite surprising. Would you share other TTs that you have come across?

@lewm Thanks for your replay on your DD table collection. I think I first learnt of the Kenwood L07D from one of your posts. And I have since read up on quite a lot of vintage DDs. I have even contacted Peter Noerbaek of PBN audio about his modified Denon DN-308, a rare Denon used only in radio stations. Alas, it was quite a financial stretch same with Sp-10 mk3’s. Maybe a DP 80 would be a good start for a DD novice like me?

Regarding you comments on the top heavy and springy natures of the Verdier, quite honestly when I look at the table, those concerns do flash through my mind. The improbably large magnets probably ameliorate the high center of gravity issue to allow the high mass of the platter to do its work. I have inquired about defeating the spring footers. Thom Mackris of Galibier is an advocate especially with his tape drive. From a fellow La Platine user with thread drive, he claimed that using solid footers decreases SQ. I have not tried, even though it is an easy tweak. Frankly with my precent vinyl setup, Trans-Fi LT arm ( another item that you’d think would not work with the Verdier ), Audio Tekne MC 6310 / ZYX Ultimate Omega, Audio Tekne SUT, and a humble Sun Valley EQ 1616D Tube Phono, I am experiencing an extremely natural / real presentation, more so than ever. Quite happy with it. My only curiosity is with the motor, hence my post. 

@thekong Yes, getting an isolation / anti vibration platform will indeed be the next upgrade for me. You have opted to put the table and motor on the  same platform. Have you tried motor and plinth on separate platforms? What pneumatic platform are you using?

Minus K had been a consideration. As I was going to put plinth only on it, I have read that Minus K does not like asymmetric loading. I wondered if any La Platine user might throw some light on this? Another contender is the Polish Stacore Pneumatic  platform, though very pricey. The two most likely Options seem to be  pneumatic footers by Pneunace Audio or a air bearing platform from FFYX, a Chinese  audio co. 

@phantom_av 

Did you explore any other motor drive and/ or battery pack conversion? I would be intereted in your search, if any.

 

 

During the past six months, I have concentrated on improving the performances of my arm, Trans-Fi Terminator, and cartridge ( Audio Tekne MC6310 ) alignment, VTF, VTA..etc. The sound quality from vinyl playback is quite unbelievable. Last night the experience of listening to Everyone Digs Bill Evans is a case in point. Philly Joe Jones' drumming floats distinctly with 'air' on the right side behind the speaker and in front of the back wall. Quite uncanny! 

Each record has a different 'sound' that I can easily  distinguish and no two sound alike. The ability to hear into the recording venue, to separate the varies instruments, ....etc is all there. The listening experience is one of music enjoyment / appreciation without the interference or the awareness of the equipments playing the music.

Recently I got in touch with a fellow La Platine owner around my neck of the woods in Hong Kong. This gentleman, Dave, was a strictly digital guy until three years ago. With the help of a friend, he was able to compare in one sitting seven TT's, Gerrard, Teachdas, and among others. He decided on the Verdier. And he has a very knowledgable consultant, Richard Mak of AnalogMagik, who is himself a two La Platine owner. And below is some of his observations and experimentations:


1. Motor

Dave also opted to switch out the motor. Presently his is using the uber -expensive Dereneville motor. To make a long story short, he told me to stick with the original motor. 
While I had been complaining about sound drift and speed instabilities in the beginning of the thread, the turntable seemed to have attain some sort of balance? I occasionally check with the ol' Sutherland Timeline, and I am getting spot on reading. 
I have kept with the pure silk thread which is literally half the diameter of the regular linen thread. And I added neoprene spacers underneath the spindle. That is  all the tweaking that I have done. In my mind the motor is a non -issue now.


2. Suspension

Using Stillpoints and some other footers, Dave had defeated the suspension. And his listening experience was not positive. He claims that the 'sound' became very boring. In the end he went back to the original suspension with ebony spacers added underneath the original footers. 

While there are strong advocate of  non-suspended turntable, the issue really is the combined dynamic of the plinth/platter, motor and the coupling of the two with belt / thread. Thom at Galibier advocates non-suspension, but with tape coupling motor and platter. I wondered if the thread drive which is favored by most Verdier users might not benefit from the suspension as was the original design intent and as had be mentioned by Chris in earlier threads. 


3. Platform

The tweak with the biggest sonic benefit for the Verdier was the additional of an air-bearing platform by Dave. He currently uses a platform by the Chinese maker FFYX with improvements across the board. He now claims that the Verdier rivals the Techdas AF 1 no less. I prefer to take that as hyperbole, but he was quite serious. 


4. Arm pod

Please refer to this link for the beautiful custom arm boards he commissioned from Magna Audio in UK: Armboards, Pods & Plinths | magna-audio. They are so heavy he added spring suspension underneath the plinth as support. I am not quite clear if they may not be overkill, but.....

In any case, my take away from talking to Dave is that the original motor is sound ( perhaps a DC conversion may be an option ), don't defeat the suspension, and adding a good platform under the TT.

@pani
During the past long weekend here, it was spent carefully listening for the ‘ slowness ‘  you mentioned in the belt-drive format. Frankly without  a direct comparison, I do not hear it. My sole experience with idler drive is from a Garrard 301 front end and  mostly vintage components. The sense of drive and power in the music was palpable. I remember coming away appreciating the system, but not thinking it superior. That was just one experience in a unfamiliar system. 

But your comments has gotten me researching Idler drive and DD. My enthusiasm for the Verdier is partly due to the amount of research devoted to understanding the TT. I bought the turntable knowing only one salient feature, its magnetic drive. And throughout the twenty years of ownership ( with several years in storage ) many features were experimented upon. The game of audio, for me, is first the love of music, of course.  Even more, it is an intellectual pursuit, a sense of discovery through music and its mechanical reproduction. I do believe I will be venturing into the other two drive systems.

@lewm 
A slight correction on the platter weight, it is 18 kg. 

It seems that  'high torque, low inertia' is a very common motor type. The low inertia refers to the non-moving part of the motor. And it is characterized by an ability to start and stop quickly. A 'high inertia' motor does the opposite, start and stop slowly and tends to be of the servo type. I believe even the Maxon that @Pani used is a high torque low inertia type. 

The motor / thread drive choice for the Verdier is best explained, as @lbelchev mentioned, by the CS Port literature: allowing the inertia of the heavy platter ( 16 kg ) to maintain speed stability without the use of a servo ( high inertia ) motor. In the case of the the La Platine, oil applied to the spindle provides a corrective force / brake to counter stylus drag. 

@Pani
Thank you for the additional information on improving the motor with DC conversion. From the Youtube link you attached, I notice the nice custom motor. That is the Maxon, I presume? The pitch of harpsichord from the clip sounds, frankly, good to me, even though one should not infer too much from the sonics of Youtube.

I still am quite struck by the reasoning of your conversion to an idler drive. The sound from the Lenco sounds more right to you, or that coming from the Verdier thread drive sounded wrong. 

@lewm
I know you have many turntables, mostly DD if I am not mistaken. Is the preference due to something fundamentally 'off' from the belt drive format?

@pani 
I appreciate the video and the beautiful motor / flywheel assembly. Yes, it comes from a very committed Verdier adopter. 

Regarding tweaking the Verdier, there are two aspects. The first  is to understand the original intent of the designer. With that understanding in mind, then deciding whether tweaking certain design features would improve sonics. The second is of course seeking improvements beyond the intended design. The past two years has been to learn not just how to improve the Verdier, but what the original design ideas were. 

Defeating the suspension or replacing thread with tape would be  examples. The Thread drive / Philips motor / plinth suspension is thought of as an integral package by the designer. Both the La Platine and the Nouvelle Platine ( I believe ? ) are suspended decks and they were meant to work best with thread drive. While I have tweaked with varies thread and belts, to me very fine silk, not viscose, threads work best. If one ventures into tape drive, with the original suspension intact, I wondered if you will hear improvements. However, in the video the table is sounding very nice and clearly improvements can be had by going beyond the original design parameters. This aspects of the Verdier decks is perhaps the most fascinating and at times, frustrating.

@pani 
I appreciate the video and the beautiful motor / flywheel assembly. Yes, it comes from a very committed Verdier adopter. 

Regarding tweaking the Verdier, there are two aspects. The first  is to understand the original intent of the designer. With that understanding in mind, then deciding whether tweaking certain design features would improve sonics. The second is of course seeking improvements beyond the intended design. The past two years has been to learn not just how to improve the Verdier, but what the original design ideas were. 

Defeating the suspension or replacing thread with tape would be  examples. The Thread drive / Philips motor / plinth suspension is thought of as an integral package by the designer. Both the La Platine and the Nouvelle Platine ( I believe ? ) are suspended decks and they were meant to work best with thread drive. While I have tweaked with varies thread and belts, to me very fine silk, not viscose, threads work best. If one ventures into tape drive, with the original suspension intact, I wondered if you will hear improvements. However, in the video the table is sounding very nice and clearly improvements can be had by going beyond the original design parameters. This aspects of the Verdier decks is perhaps the most fascinating and at times, frustrating.

@thekong Mea Culpa. Re-read Framer’s review of the Caliburn and it’s pretty clear  on how the magnetic bearing is deployed. However, I thought the whole point of using the magnets without contact was a way to ensure no wobble.

My VTA regiment with the very short arm wand is to do some adjustment on almost very record.  

I finally will order both ceramic and s.s. balls to experiment. 

I wondered why for Mr Verdier the ball was an afterthought? Did he not consider the potential sonic impact? 

The idea to separate motor from plinth comes from two sources: a local dealer and a fellow Verdier adopter in HK on advice from AnalogMgik’s Richard Mak. Mak is a champion of the deck ( I think he has two). He places the plinth and motor ( after market) on separate platforms with rather longish tape drive. That is how I thought I would proceed with a dedicated platform for the plinth, until both your gentleman’s, Lew and Michael, comments above. Further research will be required on my part. But one thing is clear now to me. MinusK may not be the right choice as a platform, especially for holding both plinth and motor. Size alone seems to preclude it. And I constantly tweak tonearm, thread length...etc, and each would entail a further platform adjustment!

 

@thekong 1. How do you defeat the suspension? 2. What arm(s) / cartridge are you using? 3. Are you using aftermarket thread or other drives?