2020 update : JC Verdier La Platine

When I had a Platine Verdier defeating the suspension and using silk thread for drive improved the speed stability considerably.

For motor, in my view, the best is a super quiet decent size AC motor with controller. Best option here is a pull an AC motor from an old idler - Empire or Garrard. They will outperform any DC motor. There are plenty of speed controllers now available with the resurgence in idlers.

Next best is the Sota Eclipse system - its a no fuss plug and play.

 

But when I got Graham motor I tried rubber, original thread and some special fishing string as a belt again before I changed it to Delrin pulley and mylar tape. Difference was huge and striking. The highs were so dirty and compressed! I could not believe it. I measured speed (3150hz) and W&F ( 0.07% ) using AnalogMagik software. The only conclusion would be that these tiny thread and string transmitted huge noise to platter! Hard to believe but it is my experience.

From my experience of owning the Platine Verdier, the motor is the issue.
It is tiny, and not really designed for side loads on the spindle. Ultimately it will generate noise, which is transmitted via the belt. No doubt the delrin pulley helped you in this case. If you ran a double pulley, with a flywheel mounted on the opposite side of the pulley from the platter, you could reduce motor noise by "balancing the load" on the motor spindle.

By the way, I remounted my Verdier motor into a cradle clamp arrangement inside the main housing and eliminated the rubber mounts. This enabled me to reduce the motor noise significantly by reducing noise from the motor case itself by carefully tuned clamping. I replaced the rubber mounts with teflon washers. This arrangement also improved speed stability.

As a test to get a handle on the performance of the motor, I ran my Final Audio Parthenon AC motor and controller, driven by a 60wpc power amp on the Verdier in a trial ( both with thread drive ) - the improvement in timing and drop in noise floor were significant. The Final AC motor is dead silent, even though its about 4/5 times larger, it has a proper machined spindle, oilite bushes, thrust pad arrangement.

On the Cartridge end, I have been persuaded by the opinion that vintage cartridges from the 70's and 80's are comparable in quality to the some of today's more expensive offerings. One of the project right now is to seek out a vintage cartridge, something like an Ortofon MC 2000, to pair with the SME V.

It's a fallacy.

The likelihood that a cartridge suspension still operates correctly after so many years is close to zero. I would not subject my valuable record collection to the abuse from a clapped out cartridge just to save a few dollars. The damage on vinyl from mistracking, even unheard, is massive and permanent.

Unfortunately there seem to be a few on this forum who promote vintage cartridges, but the reality is that finding a NOS example or new stylus is almost impossble for most of them ( some on this forum are resellers of clapped out cartridges - buyer beware ), and ultimately more costly than a reasonably priced modern cartridge.

I had a Platine Verdier with the MDF plinth for a year or two.
It got slaughtered by my Final Audio VTT1 and hence I sold it off.

The following mods narrowed the performance gap -
I removed the sprung feet, and cut marine ply inserts with stainless steel thread inserts embedded. These were friction fitted into the cavities.
This enabled me to use rigid footers with adjustable height to level the deck. The removal of springy feet and installation of rigid footers improved timing and pitch stability ( in conjunction with the thread belt, which was superior to the rubber belt ).
I also used the supplied ball to ground the platter - using dial calipers I was able to keep the platter lift to about a thou of an inch, which meant minimal load on the ball. This mod cleaned up the high frequencies, but was quite subtle.
After comparing many mats I settled on a Barium Lead Acrylic composite manufactured for Sumiko in the 80’s, with a Final Audio record weight.
Lastly - the motor was crap. Very noisy. In the end I built a cradle clamp for the motor that sat underneath the top cover of the motor housing. The cradle enabed me to clamp the motor at multiple points. By adjusting pressure to the motor I found I could minimise the noise somewhat.
I also replaced the rubber feet on the motor unit with 3 adjustable feet so the motor could be precisely levelled.

Replacing the weedy motor drive with my Final Audio VM7 motor system - larger ac motor driven by dual sine and cosine wave generators and 60wpc power amp - showed that the Verdier motor is useless.

Similarly with the bearing tolerances. On my Final Audio which has a 26kg platter with an inverted bearing, it takes about 6 hours to get the platter down after relube. Compare this to the Verdier, where the platter goes straight down after relubing. In other words the bearing tolerances on the Verdier are appalling by most standards.

So in a nutshell, if the Verdier where my only TT I would go for the Callas bearing and find a better motor drive system. Probably replace the MDF plinth too. So the only useful parts in the Verdier are the platter and magnets - everything else requires upgrading.

Honestly, before offloading the Verdier, I compared it to a Pioneer broadcast idler with the same arm & cartridge mounted. This showed how out of control the Verdier was - the Verdier was more transparent, but the idler had better timing and pitch stability. Since then I built a Garrard 301 up for my 78’s - this ( again with same arm & cartidge ) creamed the Verdier by miles in every aspect, though still not in the league of my reference Final Audio.

@perart1 
I think we are on the same page. There is a lack of mechanical grunge that is where the Verdier shines over many other TT's. It has a very low noise floor. It is very enticing. I sold the Verdier to a friend who owned an SME20 and he was very happy - it was a big upgrade.
The main issue for me was the speed stability compared to my reference that I could never quite conquer, but there must be some answer.
My feeling would be to replace the motor with an ac hysteresis motor such as used in the old idlers. The standard Verdier motor is simply a small DC motor with an relatively loose power supply. I often thought the cheapest solution would be to use a Garrard motor or Empire motor with an appropriate speed controller. There are some great motors in the old idlers - the motor in my Pioneer broadcast idler is twice the size of the Garrard and substantially quieter. The AC motor used in the Final is roughly the same size as the Garrard, but you cant hear it running until your ear is about an inch away from the pulley and even then its only turbulence, no motor noise.

ledoux,

Thanks for the feedback.
The Final Audio stuff is unobtainable now.
I prefer AC motors because they lock to frequency and error correction due to stylus drag is self induced and reasonably benign, whereas DC motors require constant monitoring and speed correction via some form of feedback system.

The reason for the proliferation of DC motors in TT’s is because they are cheap and speed controllers are cheap to build.

The SOTA eclipse package looks to be great value at the moment.
I’m pretty sure its a 3 phase AC motor with speed controller.
I have heard a TW Accustic motor sytem on a Micro Seiki 5000 and it didn’t seem to offer much improvement over the original.

With the recent interest in restoring idlers there are now many speed controllers available for the big AC motors eg Classic Turntable Coy, Longdog Audio etc. Since there are also now parts (bearings, bushes, coils remanufactured ) for Garrard motors they are possibilities.

@ledoux1238 

AC motors vs DC.

I'm sure some will debate but here is my take -

AC motors lock to frequency and any speed errors are self corrected by the fields within the motor. DC motors rely on measurement and feedback to maintain speed, in other words they require speed error to draw more power from the power supply.

Also AC motors, when they speed correct, the recovery behaviour is sinusoidal. When DC motors are corrected, the recovery behaviour is trapezoidal. So in my view the speed correction is smoother and more benign  with an AC motor.

DC motors rose to prominence because DC controllers are simple  ( voltage controlled ) and cheap to make. Speed controllers for AC motors are far more complex because you have to control frequency rather than voltage.

Now from my experience with a huge range of TT's I have a view that you want a big AC motor.  My reference TT uses a regenerated power supply, a preamplifier that generates both a regulated sine wave, and a separate regulated cosine wave to drive the two sides of the motor. The preamplifier feeds the sine and cosine waves into a power amplifier that drives the AC motor. The motor is about the size of a decent sized fist and drives a 26kg platter.

Compared to the big Micro Seikis that use DC motors, my reference has far better speed stability and precision. Same when I tried the reference motor on the Verdier - massive improvement. Specifically the bottom end is much cleaner and tighter.

I also have a couple of idlers - Garrard 301 & Pioneer/Exclusive broadcast idler.

The idlers slaughtered my Platine Verdier again on speed stability and precision, bottom end timing. Though not up to my reference TT they are the closest of any other TT's I have experienced. I omit the Technics SP10mk3 from this comment - it has a very tight bottom end and good timing, but the grey wash and lack of transparency compared to my reference I find not musical.

I have come to the conclusion that the key to the idlers is not just the lack of elastic rubber belt, but I think the large AC motors employed contribute to the "idler" sound.

Discussions I have had with Win who designed the Saskia suggest we are in agreement. His suggestion for the Verdier was exactly what I proposed - pull a big AC Paps motor out of an Empire - no-one makes AC motors as good as these any more. The AC motor in my Pioneer/Exclusive broadcast idler is about 50% bigger than the Garrard and it is dead quiet, as in dead, unless the idler wheel is engaged you cannot hear a thing.

Nobody makes these AC motors today.

I note that the new reference from SME, the model 60 has an AC motor.

 

 

@newtoncr 

I had a Platine Verdier - the magnetic fields are vertical from memory and contained  - so as long as the RTR is off to the side ( not above or below ) there should be no issue.

Having said that I rebuilt a Garrard 301 which outperformed the Verdier significantly in pitch and timing ( with the same arm/cartridge ) - although the Verdier is very grainless in its presentation and can be musical with carefully selected arm/cartridge. I sold mine to an SME 20 owner and it outperformed that TT quite comfortably.

@newtoncr 

I have a lot of tube gear - tubes themselves are a near perfect antenna.

I would be surprised if the magnetic platter caused noise - more likely to distort low level signals - if you could even hear it. You could put a metal plate (non magnetic)  under the TT and earth it to shield your RTR headlamp.

However other potential issues are turntable power supply and umbilical often generate hum/noise in sensitive electronics and also occasionally TT motors can also be a source. Switch mode supplies on TT's which are becoming more common can generate interference/hum.

Maybe you could set up the TT to the right/left of your existing system with a phono stage and just run a longer phono cable to your preamp.

 

@mr_gray 

@dover do u reckon the SOTA motor and speed control unit would be worth having a crack at?  third price of galibier and ac sort of floats my boat.

i think macro timing with the AC motor is fabulous and i love i can play records and don’t have to wear my shaknspin in a holstre anymore.  but i think its less articulate in crucial moments (start of the note) than the DC motor sometimes and this makes it less musically impressive sometimes.  

Also somewhere you mentioned I think a woody sound ???

I would caution you that you can end up on a path that never satisfies.

From the photos of your set up my advice would be to tidy up what you have first. In my view and from my experiences with a multitude of top end TT’s there are changes I would make to your set up -

1. I believe that both the motor and platter/arm should be on the same platform, in other words put both motor and TT on 1 Well float.

2. Before you invest in another platform get a proper rigid TT stand. You want to ground the TT to drain energy.

3. The motor you are running with the LDA power supply should be rigidly mounted, this will change the sound/performance substantially - it should be a vast improvement, at worst it might highlight issues or failings - but you need to find out before you decide to throw more money at another motor.

4. With regard to the Acoustical Solutions mods - the huge polymer platter sitting on the original platter - personally I think you should remove it and find out whether it is doing more harm than good. The Verdier, if you are running with no ball, then the platter is well isolated from ground, and at worst when you combine 2 significantly different materials ( aluminium/plastic ) then a significant portion of any energy passing though that joint actually gets reflected backwards - so energy from the cartridge record interface will get reflected back to the cartridge and muddy the sound.

On my Verdier I used a mat that was a mix of barium lead and acrylic - about 7mm thick. Copper mats can dampen aluminium platters significantly - it’s called bimetallic damping - where 2 metals close in propagation speed can combine to kill resonance very effectively.

fyi I used most of the time a couple of FR64S on my Verdier ( primarily because I had more than one and I could do direct comparisons with my other TT’s using identical arms/cartridges - but I also own many other arms.

With regards to the Sota vs Gallibrier I can’t answer that because I haven’t heard either. My original suggestion was to try a Garrard motor with the LDA because it has a lot more power - but that would be experimental - I never tried it. Be aware that the Garrard motors use an eddy brake to load the motor so that it produces more torque.  Because of the cost of the Sota system I would probably try that first. but then you will always wonder what the Gallibrier might do. You need to get off the train at some stage though and just enjoy what you have - personally I would focus on achieving a musical enjoyable sound first - tidy up what you have now - there is more performance there without spending any more - I’m sure.

 

@ledoux1238 

Been there, done that, It will sound a lot better again if you use 3 feet only.

I don't have a lot of faith in Project.

If you look at the workings of their expensive EAT turntables, despite the lovely plinths and massive platters - the actual bearings are puny, and the "speed control" circuitry would fit in a cigarette packet. 

Their high end products are all smoke and mirrors - lots of "features" but don't look under the bonnet.

@ledoux1238 

I hope that's the case.

@ledoux1234 

You might want to put some CRC/penetrating oil on those rusty screws and let it soak in - otherwise if they are undone they may well break.

I normally replace junk machine screws with T304/316 stainless on my gear and put a dob of oil on the new screws before insertion - this will prevent seized screws.

Might be interesting to try a silk thread on the Jasmine motor.

If you are going to use it long term then I would suggest getting a pulley made with a concave groove which would have significant benefits for both the thin round rubber belt and silk thread. The standard pulley profile on the Jasmine is not ideal for anything.

@thekong 

I am considering taking this down time to commission a custom plinth made of aluminium/brass or granite, 

Please do not use granite - it resonates/rings badly.

Slate is much better due to its stratified composition.

The "Granito" Verdier is NOT Granite - it is terrazzo. Granito refers to French floor tiles made of sand/cement with stone embedded. This is why the original Verdier plinths were prone to crumbling. 

I have used high quality German engineered quartz ( 93% quartz embedded in resin ) - very inert, rigid and available in an array of colours.

Also high density bamboo ply plinths are excellent. High density bamboo ply is considerably more dense than maple.

Personally I would stay away from aluminium/brass. Gunmetal would be ok  - it is bronze with a high lead content.

If you insist on aluminium then at least do a sandwich construction with a layer of carbon fibre to break up resonances.

You could take a leak out of the Audio Tekne TT and use carbon block.

 

 

 

 

@lewm 

The Verdier motor is garbage - noisy - I could hear mine from the listening chair 4 meters away. This has been well documented in this thread. The theory in the design is that you run the thread very loose such that the platter inertia dominates the motor, not the other way round, but the motor is a major issue for the reason you mentioned.

@thekong 

Yes - that's my reference TT, has been for 40 years.

You must use silk thread - the pulley was designed for it - I use surgical silk - thickish end of the range.

I originally bought the Verdier as a 2nd deck for 78's and multiple arm playing around.

I have since completed a Garrard 301 for myself. Sold the Verdier to a friend.

I have put together a few 301's/401's for friends - both quartz stone ( SMD style dual layer ), Bamboo, and Bamboo/Birchply hybrid.

A quartzstone plinthed 401 with bronze platter I built for a friend operated very very close to a Kuzma M with the same arm/cartridge - 4point11/van den hul and Kuzma mc's.

Both the quartz stone and bamboo ( 40mm ) are very stable and can be machine very accurately.

Just remember on the plinth on the Verdier is the same weight as the platter. That's why they put steel plates under the MDF plinth. If you do a custom plinth make sure the mass is equal to or greater than the platter weight.

 

 

@thekong 

I used compressed bamboo ply - so it works out about roughly 10kg for 80mm plinth. The engineered stone would be more straightforward.

Suddenly had a brain explosion - it would be interesting to do a larger plinth and push the feet out to provide additional stability. Personally I don't subscribe to having a long belt - so you would still want the motor as close as possible.

@thekong 

One interesting design of the Basis Transcendence is that it seems like both the arm pod and motor pod are just sitting on the plinth with no hard connections! 

No I think they are through bolted from under the plinth.

Plinth

Some years ago Azzolina Audio did a run of terrazzo plinths for the Verdier.

They might well be up for building one ??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1L7h_cYmz4&t=24s

DIY Terrazzo plinth would not be that hard - just make a mould which for the Verdier plinth would be a plain box with some cylinders/studs bolted in for the holes. Pour in the cement and stone, when set break open and polish the surfaces.

 

 

 

@thekong 

This flexibility was accomplished through the use of a massive, solid alloy base on which tonearms can be placed anywhere on their respective spindle-to-pivot arcs.

Purchasing a Transcendence with a large base enables one to use a tonearm of any length and offers the possibility of placing it at a desired location rather than a fixed mount, provided that the location is the correct distance away from the platter spindle. Additionally, upgrades are stress-free, since components can be swapped without the need for disassembly.<

Yes, but, every time the cleaning lady has finished I would have to remeasure the position and/or see a therapist for my OCD. On my TT if I change arms I have to get a custom bronze/gunmetal arm board cut and polished down to a thou. That is cheaper than a good therapist. The pivoting arm boards on the Verdier are quite advantageous, if somewhat ungainly.

The problem with the Verdier motors that the spindle was never designed for side loads that the belt exerts. Some turntable manufacturers get a bearing inserted to help with the side loading, some don't.

My Verdier motor was very noisy, and even building a clamping device inside the motor housing so I could minimise motor noise did not resolve this issue.

Of course motors like the Garrard and others have proper spindle and bronze bushes that are much more stable. I have an old Pioneer/Exclusive broadcast idler that has a motor twice the size of the Garrard and is quieter. It even has separate brazed brass oil lines from the top plate to the top and bottom bearing so that they can be oiled in situ. I keep this in case the motor on my reference TT ever dies.

If I still had my Verdier An all in one solution worth looking at would be the Sota Eclipse system - off the shelf and modestly priced. Its quite a bit better than many turntable standard supplies in some unnamed  ( quite expensive ) TT's.

@mr_gray 

Your hearing is fine. The Verdier has a very relaxed quality to it which can easily be lost with mods. The supplied rubber belt is very poorly made, it is out of round ( cross section ), rough, and in my experience you can see it riding up and down the platter as the platter rotates. A fellow user local also has this problem. The Leonardo rubber belt is better made ( more true ), it's as simple as that.

I used the supplied linen thread which I preferred to the rubber. I would not use cotton ( stretches ) or dental floss ( too waxy ) both of which I have tried on my reference TT and were failures.

On my reference turntable ( 26kg platter ) I use surgical silk. If you use low tension you can chalk it but I don't.

I don't see why you should lose anything with a better motor as long as you run the belt with low tension. However my guess is that the Sota Eclipse motor is closer to the original in drive, just more accurate.

As an aside I sold the Verdier tp a friend who had a SME20 - the Verdier was significantly better than that TT.

 

 

 

@ledoux1234 

You can run the basic Sota Eclipse motor and controller ( $975 ) without the Roadrunner feedback system and it will still be a significant upgrade from the Verdier motor.

Furthermore - lewm's point is probably a red herring - the monitor under the platter is unlikely to be affected by the magnets which are inboard from the platter edge. I'd put money on it, in which case you could run the Roadrunner feedback as well.

 but also because silk doesn't last long.  as it shreds one gets all sorts of speed issues. 

This flabbergasts me.

I have been using surgical suture silk thread for 40 years on my TT - it's pulling a 26kg platter. I've only ever had one failure, when I went overseas for 2 months and accidentally left the TT running. Came back and the silk belt had broken.

My silk belts go for years without needing replacement.

I also ran surgical suture silk on my Verdier - no shredding or breakages on that either. Pretty sure that the silk belt on my Verdier ran for about 3 years until I sold it.

 

@mr_gray 

Great news - now you are hearing the Verdier as it is intended.

Not an expert but I did read that exposure to very high heat can demagnetise magnets.

You should keep the originals - investigate if you can get them re-magnetised.

@mr_gray 

 i then used a very sharp chisel to try and remove this wax and i roughened the surface of the metal

This is pretty bad. The Verdier is designed for the platter to dominate the motor, not the other way round. You really should fix the platter.

If you use 2000 grit wet and dry sandpaper you can gently sand the platter rim  - what you do is smear some light oil over the rim to reduce the aggression of the sandpaper , and then gently spin the platter hold the 2000 grit wet and dry sand paper ( wetted ). This should take off any roughness while removing minimal metal. That Process is more gentle than most metal polishes.

With regard to Linen vs silk - after reading earlier posts I did some research on the merits. I was surprised to find the linen has less elasticity than silk, but linen is woven flax which is more course than silk which is softer. This might explain you preference for the silk. Note here that Verdier suggest very low tension with the Linen, silk you can run higher tension with less noise issues. The designer of my TT suggested chalked silk, which may be he intended a low level of tension, similar to the Verdier, hence the chalk to add a little grip.

Linen thread has wax in it and I'm pretty sure the Verdier linen thread is a low wax linen. Ideally you would want no wax.

Cleaning the platter -

I use heavy duty degreaser CRC Electroclean to degrease the rim, using a microfibres cloth, and then use electrical contact cleaner CRC CO to remove any residue from the degreaser. This works extremely well, and I have found that the platter stays cleaner and shiny much longer than with polishes.

I found the surgical silk leaves no residue.

 

I wouldn't think that was the best choice for reducing belt slippage.

You clearly missed my point above and do not understand the Verdier design.

Suggest you buy one yourself and then go at it with an angle grinder if that's your thing.

 

The Transrotor belt was recommended by Callas Audio simply because it was better quality than the original Verdier belt.

On my Verdier the original belt was so rough that it rode up and down the platter as it ran.

There are plenty of alternatives.

Bear in mind the original rubber belt is round and that's important because of the shape of the pulley.

The Verdier pulley again is very poorly manufactured.

In an ideal world a pulley for a thread drive TT should have a 1/2 circle groove to operate optimally.

Back in the glory days when these things mattered Micro Seiki, for example, produced different pulleys for belt drive and thread drive.

Unfortunately good engineering has long gone from audio - it's all about the shiny objects these days.

Granito is simply terrazo ( cement with imbedded stone ), but the granito chassis can be fragile - crumbly from what some owners have commented.

If I was doing a new base I’d probably do custom slate or some composite - bamboo ply/panzerholz or other.

If you are not using a ball and using the lossy original feet - I can’t see it altering the sound significantly unless the weight changes significantly on the sprung feet.

I assume the steel plates under the MDF bring the weight to about the same as the Granito plinth - and keeping the weight the same with a new plinth would be important so as not to affect the fundamental resonance of the suspension.

 

@ledoux1238

Sorry I can't remember how to remove the feet - it's some years ago.

Pretty sure everything is held in by screws.

I made my own feet - I cut inserts for the cavities from birch ply and put 8mm stainless steel thread inserts into the ply inserts. The round inserts were made as a friction fit - no screws or glue required.

I then used Black Diamond Racing cones screwed into the ply/stainless inserts and pucks.

@charob

The Platine Verdier comes standard with both a belt and a linen thread.

Silk thread - used for sutures - works better.

 

 

 

Personally I'm not a fan of DC motors - they are used because they are cheap and easy to control. DC motors essentially require constant measurement and speed correction, they only produce torque when the speed is out and being corrected,  whereas AC motors lock to frequency. There is a lot more to say but it would take a book.

In terms of speed correction from undulating loads, AC motors self correct due to the fields inside the motor. DC motors can mimic this, but the important thing is that of you scope the error correction AC motors self correct sinusoidally, whereas DC motors self correct in a saw tooth fashion ( rough ).

The Long Dog with AC motor should be interesting.

I think the Sota eclipse system would also be interesting - controller and feedback loop with AC motor.

@thekong 

The TechDas Airforce Zero, utilising a 3-phase motor, actually has a 3-phase controller and three 50W power amplifiers (one per phase) to drive the motor!

As you pointed out my Final uses both a sine and cosine wave generator preamplifier feeding a stereo power amp to drive the motor. As well as infinite speed adjustment on both speeds independently it has the provision to continuously vary the amount of torque supplied to the motor.

Originally it used Stax D80 monos to drive the motor, but since then I’ve used Bryston monos (custom) , Rowlands - each amplifier imparts its own sound. Currently I use an Onix Audio OA60 to drive the motor - it has a fully regulated power supply internally. Importantly because you are amplifying sine/cosine waves cables make a huge difference. I am using MIT Oracle interconnects and speaker cables in the wiring loom from controller to power amp to motor for my TT motor supply. The phase coherency superiority of these cables in the TT power supply are quite audible.