2020 update : JC Verdier La Platine

When I had a Platine Verdier defeating the suspension and using silk thread for drive improved the speed stability considerably.

For motor, in my view, the best is a super quiet decent size AC motor with controller. Best option here is a pull an AC motor from an old idler - Empire or Garrard. They will outperform any DC motor. There are plenty of speed controllers now available with the resurgence in idlers.

Next best is the Sota Eclipse system - its a no fuss plug and play.

 

But when I got Graham motor I tried rubber, original thread and some special fishing string as a belt again before I changed it to Delrin pulley and mylar tape. Difference was huge and striking. The highs were so dirty and compressed! I could not believe it. I measured speed (3150hz) and W&F ( 0.07% ) using AnalogMagik software. The only conclusion would be that these tiny thread and string transmitted huge noise to platter! Hard to believe but it is my experience.

From my experience of owning the Platine Verdier, the motor is the issue.
It is tiny, and not really designed for side loads on the spindle. Ultimately it will generate noise, which is transmitted via the belt. No doubt the delrin pulley helped you in this case. If you ran a double pulley, with a flywheel mounted on the opposite side of the pulley from the platter, you could reduce motor noise by "balancing the load" on the motor spindle.

By the way, I remounted my Verdier motor into a cradle clamp arrangement inside the main housing and eliminated the rubber mounts. This enabled me to reduce the motor noise significantly by reducing noise from the motor case itself by carefully tuned clamping. I replaced the rubber mounts with teflon washers. This arrangement also improved speed stability.

As a test to get a handle on the performance of the motor, I ran my Final Audio Parthenon AC motor and controller, driven by a 60wpc power amp on the Verdier in a trial ( both with thread drive ) - the improvement in timing and drop in noise floor were significant. The Final AC motor is dead silent, even though its about 4/5 times larger, it has a proper machined spindle, oilite bushes, thrust pad arrangement.

On the Cartridge end, I have been persuaded by the opinion that vintage cartridges from the 70's and 80's are comparable in quality to the some of today's more expensive offerings. One of the project right now is to seek out a vintage cartridge, something like an Ortofon MC 2000, to pair with the SME V.

It's a fallacy.

The likelihood that a cartridge suspension still operates correctly after so many years is close to zero. I would not subject my valuable record collection to the abuse from a clapped out cartridge just to save a few dollars. The damage on vinyl from mistracking, even unheard, is massive and permanent.

Unfortunately there seem to be a few on this forum who promote vintage cartridges, but the reality is that finding a NOS example or new stylus is almost impossble for most of them ( some on this forum are resellers of clapped out cartridges - buyer beware ), and ultimately more costly than a reasonably priced modern cartridge.

I had a Platine Verdier with the MDF plinth for a year or two.
It got slaughtered by my Final Audio VTT1 and hence I sold it off.

The following mods narrowed the performance gap -
I removed the sprung feet, and cut marine ply inserts with stainless steel thread inserts embedded. These were friction fitted into the cavities.
This enabled me to use rigid footers with adjustable height to level the deck. The removal of springy feet and installation of rigid footers improved timing and pitch stability ( in conjunction with the thread belt, which was superior to the rubber belt ).
I also used the supplied ball to ground the platter - using dial calipers I was able to keep the platter lift to about a thou of an inch, which meant minimal load on the ball. This mod cleaned up the high frequencies, but was quite subtle.
After comparing many mats I settled on a Barium Lead Acrylic composite manufactured for Sumiko in the 80’s, with a Final Audio record weight.
Lastly - the motor was crap. Very noisy. In the end I built a cradle clamp for the motor that sat underneath the top cover of the motor housing. The cradle enabed me to clamp the motor at multiple points. By adjusting pressure to the motor I found I could minimise the noise somewhat.
I also replaced the rubber feet on the motor unit with 3 adjustable feet so the motor could be precisely levelled.

Replacing the weedy motor drive with my Final Audio VM7 motor system - larger ac motor driven by dual sine and cosine wave generators and 60wpc power amp - showed that the Verdier motor is useless.

Similarly with the bearing tolerances. On my Final Audio which has a 26kg platter with an inverted bearing, it takes about 6 hours to get the platter down after relube. Compare this to the Verdier, where the platter goes straight down after relubing. In other words the bearing tolerances on the Verdier are appalling by most standards.

So in a nutshell, if the Verdier where my only TT I would go for the Callas bearing and find a better motor drive system. Probably replace the MDF plinth too. So the only useful parts in the Verdier are the platter and magnets - everything else requires upgrading.

Honestly, before offloading the Verdier, I compared it to a Pioneer broadcast idler with the same arm & cartridge mounted. This showed how out of control the Verdier was - the Verdier was more transparent, but the idler had better timing and pitch stability. Since then I built a Garrard 301 up for my 78’s - this ( again with same arm & cartidge ) creamed the Verdier by miles in every aspect, though still not in the league of my reference Final Audio.

@perart1 
I think we are on the same page. There is a lack of mechanical grunge that is where the Verdier shines over many other TT's. It has a very low noise floor. It is very enticing. I sold the Verdier to a friend who owned an SME20 and he was very happy - it was a big upgrade.
The main issue for me was the speed stability compared to my reference that I could never quite conquer, but there must be some answer.
My feeling would be to replace the motor with an ac hysteresis motor such as used in the old idlers. The standard Verdier motor is simply a small DC motor with an relatively loose power supply. I often thought the cheapest solution would be to use a Garrard motor or Empire motor with an appropriate speed controller. There are some great motors in the old idlers - the motor in my Pioneer broadcast idler is twice the size of the Garrard and substantially quieter. The AC motor used in the Final is roughly the same size as the Garrard, but you cant hear it running until your ear is about an inch away from the pulley and even then its only turbulence, no motor noise.

ledoux,

Thanks for the feedback.
The Final Audio stuff is unobtainable now.
I prefer AC motors because they lock to frequency and error correction due to stylus drag is self induced and reasonably benign, whereas DC motors require constant monitoring and speed correction via some form of feedback system.

The reason for the proliferation of DC motors in TT’s is because they are cheap and speed controllers are cheap to build.

The SOTA eclipse package looks to be great value at the moment.
I’m pretty sure its a 3 phase AC motor with speed controller.
I have heard a TW Accustic motor sytem on a Micro Seiki 5000 and it didn’t seem to offer much improvement over the original.

With the recent interest in restoring idlers there are now many speed controllers available for the big AC motors eg Classic Turntable Coy, Longdog Audio etc. Since there are also now parts (bearings, bushes, coils remanufactured ) for Garrard motors they are possibilities.

@ledoux1238 

AC motors vs DC.

I'm sure some will debate but here is my take -

AC motors lock to frequency and any speed errors are self corrected by the fields within the motor. DC motors rely on measurement and feedback to maintain speed, in other words they require speed error to draw more power from the power supply.

Also AC motors, when they speed correct, the recovery behaviour is sinusoidal. When DC motors are corrected, the recovery behaviour is trapezoidal. So in my view the speed correction is smoother and more benign  with an AC motor.

DC motors rose to prominence because DC controllers are simple  ( voltage controlled ) and cheap to make. Speed controllers for AC motors are far more complex because you have to control frequency rather than voltage.

Now from my experience with a huge range of TT's I have a view that you want a big AC motor.  My reference TT uses a regenerated power supply, a preamplifier that generates both a regulated sine wave, and a separate regulated cosine wave to drive the two sides of the motor. The preamplifier feeds the sine and cosine waves into a power amplifier that drives the AC motor. The motor is about the size of a decent sized fist and drives a 26kg platter.

Compared to the big Micro Seikis that use DC motors, my reference has far better speed stability and precision. Same when I tried the reference motor on the Verdier - massive improvement. Specifically the bottom end is much cleaner and tighter.

I also have a couple of idlers - Garrard 301 & Pioneer/Exclusive broadcast idler.

The idlers slaughtered my Platine Verdier again on speed stability and precision, bottom end timing. Though not up to my reference TT they are the closest of any other TT's I have experienced. I omit the Technics SP10mk3 from this comment - it has a very tight bottom end and good timing, but the grey wash and lack of transparency compared to my reference I find not musical.

I have come to the conclusion that the key to the idlers is not just the lack of elastic rubber belt, but I think the large AC motors employed contribute to the "idler" sound.

Discussions I have had with Win who designed the Saskia suggest we are in agreement. His suggestion for the Verdier was exactly what I proposed - pull a big AC Paps motor out of an Empire - no-one makes AC motors as good as these any more. The AC motor in my Pioneer/Exclusive broadcast idler is about 50% bigger than the Garrard and it is dead quiet, as in dead, unless the idler wheel is engaged you cannot hear a thing.

Nobody makes these AC motors today.

I note that the new reference from SME, the model 60 has an AC motor.

 

 

@newtoncr 

I had a Platine Verdier - the magnetic fields are vertical from memory and contained  - so as long as the RTR is off to the side ( not above or below ) there should be no issue.

Having said that I rebuilt a Garrard 301 which outperformed the Verdier significantly in pitch and timing ( with the same arm/cartridge ) - although the Verdier is very grainless in its presentation and can be musical with carefully selected arm/cartridge. I sold mine to an SME 20 owner and it outperformed that TT quite comfortably.

@newtoncr 

I have a lot of tube gear - tubes themselves are a near perfect antenna.

I would be surprised if the magnetic platter caused noise - more likely to distort low level signals - if you could even hear it. You could put a metal plate (non magnetic)  under the TT and earth it to shield your RTR headlamp.

However other potential issues are turntable power supply and umbilical often generate hum/noise in sensitive electronics and also occasionally TT motors can also be a source. Switch mode supplies on TT's which are becoming more common can generate interference/hum.

Maybe you could set up the TT to the right/left of your existing system with a phono stage and just run a longer phono cable to your preamp.

 

@ledoux1238 

Been there, done that, It will sound a lot better again if you use 3 feet only.

The problem with the Verdier motors that the spindle was never designed for side loads that the belt exerts. Some turntable manufacturers get a bearing inserted to help with the side loading, some don't.

My Verdier motor was very noisy, and even building a clamping device inside the motor housing so I could minimise motor noise did not resolve this issue.

Of course motors like the Garrard and others have proper spindle and bronze bushes that are much more stable. I have an old Pioneer/Exclusive broadcast idler that has a motor twice the size of the Garrard and is quieter. It even has separate brazed brass oil lines from the top plate to the top and bottom bearing so that they can be oiled in situ. I keep this in case the motor on my reference TT ever dies.

If I still had my Verdier An all in one solution worth looking at would be the Sota Eclipse system - off the shelf and modestly priced. Its quite a bit better than many turntable standard supplies in some unnamed  ( quite expensive ) TT's.

@mr_gray 

Your hearing is fine. The Verdier has a very relaxed quality to it which can easily be lost with mods. The supplied rubber belt is very poorly made, it is out of round ( cross section ), rough, and in my experience you can see it riding up and down the platter as the platter rotates. A fellow user local also has this problem. The Leonardo rubber belt is better made ( more true ), it's as simple as that.

I used the supplied linen thread which I preferred to the rubber. I would not use cotton ( stretches ) or dental floss ( too waxy ) both of which I have tried on my reference TT and were failures.

On my reference turntable ( 26kg platter ) I use surgical silk. If you use low tension you can chalk it but I don't.

I don't see why you should lose anything with a better motor as long as you run the belt with low tension. However my guess is that the Sota Eclipse motor is closer to the original in drive, just more accurate.

As an aside I sold the Verdier tp a friend who had a SME20 - the Verdier was significantly better than that TT.

 

 

 

@ledoux1234 

You can run the basic Sota Eclipse motor and controller ( $975 ) without the Roadrunner feedback system and it will still be a significant upgrade from the Verdier motor.

Furthermore - lewm's point is probably a red herring - the monitor under the platter is unlikely to be affected by the magnets which are inboard from the platter edge. I'd put money on it, in which case you could run the Roadrunner feedback as well.

@mr_gray 

Great news - now you are hearing the Verdier as it is intended.

Not an expert but I did read that exposure to very high heat can demagnetise magnets.

You should keep the originals - investigate if you can get them re-magnetised.

Granito is simply terrazo ( cement with imbedded stone ), but the granito chassis can be fragile - crumbly from what some owners have commented.

If I was doing a new base I’d probably do custom slate or some composite - bamboo ply/panzerholz or other.

If you are not using a ball and using the lossy original feet - I can’t see it altering the sound significantly unless the weight changes significantly on the sprung feet.

I assume the steel plates under the MDF bring the weight to about the same as the Granito plinth - and keeping the weight the same with a new plinth would be important so as not to affect the fundamental resonance of the suspension.

 

@ledoux1238

Sorry I can't remember how to remove the feet - it's some years ago.

Pretty sure everything is held in by screws.

I made my own feet - I cut inserts for the cavities from birch ply and put 8mm stainless steel thread inserts into the ply inserts. The round inserts were made as a friction fit - no screws or glue required.

I then used Black Diamond Racing cones screwed into the ply/stainless inserts and pucks.

@charob

The Platine Verdier comes standard with both a belt and a linen thread.

Silk thread - used for sutures - works better.