Sonofjim,
you have my sympathies, but I'm not convinced that the challenges of the economics of this situation are best solved by lowering the prices of the upper echelons of this cottage industry. When as many Saskias sell as do BMWs, I'm sure we'll see lower prices. Some would have it that the Technics SL1200 is your answer. I think if you compare the two you'll find out why the Saskia has two zeros added to the price. I know it's hard to imagine how that is justified but if you actually looked into it, it would come into focus. Sorry to jump on you, but it's an all too common oversight. |
I mean no disrepect to the designers of this product and I realize I chose the wrong place to post my opinion. My enthusiasm over cutting edge stuff like this is quelled when I realize that virtually no one can afford it.(raised in a hard working lower-middle class farm town) I appreciate people practicing/working for 6-8 hours at a time for little pay more than you know. Unfortunately, those aren't the people who will ever benefit from something like this. |
Sonofjum,
perhaps you should look into designing cutting edge products and making them by hand in very small quantities r a very limited market for a living and see what prices you come up with. I think you may find that your income to work hours ratio is what's ridiculous. Those who care to push the edge and have the scratch to do it will always be the envy and/or subject of misunderstanding of those who don't. Some people might not appreciate someone practicing their instrument for 6-8 hours a day for little or no money either. You do what you gotta do. |
I was intigued at the Saskia turntable until I looked a bit further and found that the price was $36,000. Great sound aside, maybe it's time to question the prices of some of this equipment. I'm sure the R&D and build quality are top notch. Well, they should be. How do you arrive at a price of $36,000 vs. say $15,000(still equally ridiculous) This amount will buy you an entry level BMW with thousands of moving parts and thousands of pounds more raw materials. Don't get me wrong, I love audio equipment and I'm fortunate enough I could write a check for two of these tomorrow if I wanted to. I just can't justify it. I'm not trying to pick on the Saskia. It's just one example of how out of hand this can get if you're not careful. |
Slipknot1,
I wish I met you there. Couldn't make it friday night but did Saturday. Your impressions are identical to mine and your comments identical as well. The Mastersound Room sounded incredible at the Hyatt. The Symposium Speakers have me more than tempted. But.... they need the long wall which I can't do. I also wish they had SET amplification on them to hear what more they are capable of, although the Emotive gear is no slouch. |
Doug-
It was great getting a chance to meet you and Paul on Friday at Garcia's. Thanks to Larry (Cello) for making the get together happen. I enjoyed putting faces to names.
There was much to like at RMAF this year and much that was disappointing. The biggest surprise for me was a digital based system in the Hilton: CEC belt drive transport driving a Lessloss DAC w/volume control, into 845 based Mastersound amps from Italy and speakers with a billeted aluminum tweeter that was adjustable for position. The speakers were from Germany - Kaiser (sp?)
On to analog: The TW Raven in Highwater Sounds room sounded very good to these ears. For the first time at RMAF I actually enjoyed the music in the Continuum room. I agree with many that the music in the Oswald Mill's room was right on a lot of levels, as was the LP playback in Mike and Nelli's room via the Brinkmann Balance/Lamm ML-3/Coultrane Supreme.
Tape playback on the Technics 1500 sounded good in the Synergistic Cable room via the Vivid Loudspeakers. I am surprised that there were not more comments posted yet about the resonance treatments that Ted Denny and company were showing. Design appears to be along the same same lines as the Acoustic System of Frank Tchang, but at a lower retail for a complete system. They had several sets available at a "show special" price that were gone by Sat. night. One of the members of my listening group bought a set and I will be anxious to see what they can do.
The production version of the Symposium Panorama speaker looks very nice and sounds good too, but at around $110,000/pair.
Disappointing: The new Focal Grand, the Acapella Triolons. Every year I look forward to hearing Audio Limits large rooms with big ticket products, and every year I am disappointed. The Clearaudio TT and Goldfinger cart should sound much better than it does. I don't think they know how to set the table up properly. It always sounds as if the VTA is way off, and the people running the demos are not inclined to adjust it, even when asked.
Once again, it was great seeing so many of you there - I liked the Two-for-one room at Garcia's a lot! |
Quiddity,
We've gotten virtually all our (hundreds) of L'oiseau Lyre LP's off ebay. They're readily available from sellers in the US and Europe. Intercontinental postage can be a killer, but at least these LP's are almost invariably in perfect condition (since you and I may be the only two humans who actually play them!).
Speaking of counter-tenors, among our other most-difficult-to-reproduce LP's are Harmonia Mundi titles featuring Alfred Deller doubled by a recorder, especially one recorded in an echo-ey, stone space. Most systems (including ours during nearly three years of trying) couldn't avoid mushing the pure and similar but slightly time- and timbre-differentiated tones into an inharmonious hash. Frightful and sometimes literally painful. It's only in the last year that our system's been able to reproduce that LP with real clarity and enjoyment.
I used to carry it when visiting other systems, but I got thrown out of the room too often. Again, it wasn't so much the fault of the music as the inability of the system.
Jonathon,
My apologies for mis-remembering your tonearm, which was half the basis for my comment that Win's table deserved top flight companions. So many rooms, so much gear...
FWIW, I'll stand by that comment relative to the cartidge. Win might remember the first thing I said after we'd listened for a bit, "You've proved once again that a great table (and arm) can do amazing things for a mediocre cartridge."
I can only imagine how your room would have sounded with a cartridge having real speed, clarity and neutrality. Of course if you'd done that I might still be sitting in Denver! :-)
Win,
Just reporting what we heard, good and bad, though not naming many names in the latter case unless required when discussing the good. Keep on trying. You've produced the first rim driven table that works for our ears and priorities, and it does so brilliantly. I was sure that Vivaldi LP would expose a weak spot based on the emails you and I traded several months ago, and I was thrilled to be proven dead wrong.
Doug
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Hi,
The arm model error was an easy oversight, so it is entirely acceptable in my mind. What is important to me is that a conversation has been spurred on regarding the merits of the frontend of any system. It will always be a "different strokes for different folks" deal, but at least people are beginning to consider the topic on a different plane. That's the key. If I have managed to develop a turntable that can illustrate the difference, I am thrilled. If not, I'll just try harder. In any event, the passion of the music is the driving force.
As far as drive systems go, I am perfectly willing to concede that a fantastic turntable can be built using any of the available means, and perhaps some we haven't thought of, yet. The trick here is to avoid the mistakes of the past, and improve upon what we already know. Of course, it helps to have a few new ideas spring up along the way.
By the way, Doug, I am ecstatic that you and Paul like my turntable, and that you went to the trouble to tell the guys here!
Win |
Hello All,
I'd like to correct one misnomer regarding the OMA room at RMAF this year. The Schroeder tonearm on Saskia was not a Model Two. It was a Reference SQ that Frank built specifically for Saskia.
Jonathan Weiss
OMA |
Ralph
Sorry for jumping on you but this keeps coming up and it's just not true. The Papst motor ex the empire TT has less than 2 watts of output power. Even the small Hurst motor and the Airpax (Linn etc) have more power (and therefore more torque) than that motor, the motor ex the Garrard etc etc.
Whatever you are hearing it's not motor torque that's causing it. |
Doug...just a comment on the elasticity of the belt...I guess thats why the rim drive makes the VPI's sound so much better. |
Quiddity, take another look at my post. I merely pointed out that a lot of belt drive machines get away with using weaker motors, not that **all** of them do. The motor I use in my machine has a lot of torque and behaves very much like a second flywheel in the table. It is the Pabst motor from 40 years ago- one of the better motors to be installed in a turntable. FWIW the l'oiseau lyre LPs sound great on it- despite being belt drive. Doug, if you really want to get the inside story of what sounds right on an LP, I strongly recommend that you take a recording from the mics right to the finished LP. Do it with a 2-mic recording of natural instruments, like you mentioned. This is very handy for developing a reference because being at the session itself, you will know exactly what the recording is supposed to sound like. BTW although we have sold a number of our 'model 208' turntables ( http://www.atma-sphere.com/products/208.html), its not a regular production thing for us by any means nor have we any intention of making it so. It just seemed an obvious update path for the original machine. |
Ralph
You have repeated the Furphy about belt drive motors being "weaker" than idler motors. To use examples from this thread, each of the motors from the HRX has about 3 times the output power of the motor in the Saskia.
Doug
interesting how an interest in early music and an interest in speed stability appear to coincide. I (used to) sing as a countertenor and became fascinated by the music of the period of the great castrati.
Unfortunately the only L'Oiseau Lyre recordings I have are unlistenably noisy. They're as rare as hen's teeth over here, despite the label having been established by an Australian.
Trivia: the name means Lyre Bird in reference to the local bird (Menura Novaehollandiae). There are several musical references wrapped in that name - the lyre the British thought the birds tail formed, its famous ability to mimic any sound it has heard and the fact that one habitat near Melbourne is bisected by the Melba highway, named after the soprano. |
Wow, lots of stuff here. Thanks all for your ideas.
Ralph,
I'm 100% in agreement that a well matched and set up TriPlanar will outperform a well matched and set up Schroeder, including the Reference and certainly a Model Two. A TP on Win's table would provide arm stability and adjustability to match the table's speed stability and apparently silent noise floor. That'd be quite a treat, and was the whole point of my comment that his table deserved a top flight arm (and cartridge). I didn't name names to avoid diverting the discussion into a tonearm war, let's hope we don't go there.
Stringreen,
No argument about warps and their sonic effects, depending on the arm, but the speed variations I'm talking about are in time with the music (stylus drag induced), not in time with platter rotation (warp induced, possibly). No reason one couldn't use a ring clamp on a Saskia. I had one on my Teres and it was a big benefit.
Terry,
Rock (or any artificially amplified and mixed music) is much less transparent than top quality recordings of acoustic instruments. The kinds of time errors I'm referring to would be inaudible on most rock recordings, in even the best systems. (They're much too fine to be measured by any strobe either, so don't ask me to measure them.)
The most revealing LP's of all (to our ears) are original/authentic instrument recordings, such as those recorded by Christopher Hogwood and his Academy of Ancient Music for L'oiseau Lyre (Decca recordings, pressed by Philips in the Netherlands).
It takes a system with exceptional clarity, low distortion and low time domain errors to play these LP's without making them sound like fingernails on blackboards. Many people hear that and assume the fault lies with the instruments or the records. They're wrong. The fault invariably lies with the reproducing system. In a really good system, this kind of music is simply amazing to hear, but it's not easy. It took us 3-4 years to work our setup to the point where such LP's were even listenable.
Most people don't listen to this I know. But there's no tougher test for a system that I'm aware of.
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Doug, can you give a quick detailed description of the types of music where you hear speed inaccuracies on rubber belt tables? And do you not notice this on some kinds of music e.g. rock.
Thanks Terry |
Dougdeacon et al...Another point I'd like to raise..Unless a record is flat, one hears pitch wavering coming from the tonearm traversing the undulations of the warp. Many tonearms' effective length is varied at the rise and fall of the cartridge. My experience is that the flattest records are warped to some degree, and therefore, the choice of a ring clamp, or vacuum table would be on my short list. |
Good analysis Doug, and I know you are aware that quite a few temporal disturbances can come from electronics - different sorts of disturbances than can (in general) be attributed from mechanical sources (tape drives and turntables). I'm emphasizing this point mainly for those who might be glossing over your prose. There is a type of timing disturbance that many do not perceive as speed stability, but rather as IM distortion. I'm sure you and Paul have heard this as you worked up the belt stiffness hierarchy. I once posted a link to a review of the Rockport Sirius turntable by the ever verbose Peter Moncrieff on the topic of IM distortion. Here's the link along with some introductory comments by me: http://www.galibierdesign.com/rants_06.html. IM distortion can occur in a circuit as well. It's the usual place we think of it (as opposed to a drive system). These distortions can mask themselves as mechanical timing errors as well. I'm coming over to yours and Raul's side of the fence with respect to iron. The Atma-Sphere OTL gear I had the privilege to live with at the show was a second such exposure that demonstrated how difficult it is to work a musical signal through some wire wrapped around a hunk iron. It can be done artfully (and you have every right to like it), but the effect is still there. Phase (timing) relationships are very difficult to maintain throughout an audio system and power supply tuning is another area that can really destroy these subtle timing cues if the designer is not skilled. I've yet to be able to fully get a handle on distinguishing this causality reliably, but rather by comparison, component swapping, and extrapolation. One of the more brilliant power supply designers is Dennis Fraker of Serious Stereo. Say what you will about the source components they have to lug to the show from the "wilds" of Livingston, MT, but his power supply design is nothing short of revelatory. I've heard Dennis' 2A3 amp (sub 1 watt output) in the room of a customer, and have never heard such dynamic breadth and shadings in an amp with less than ca. 20W output when driving Azzolina bass cabinets (he uses the extraordinary Ales compression drivers up top). Of course, the overall efficiency is set by the bass modules, and I'm well familiar with these bass modules. When a power supply starts to peter out, you experience a vague motion sickness type of effect as the presentation begins to congeal and waver in both time and space. Don't underestimate cartridge matching (I know you don't) when you're talking about phase relationships and tempo. It's about a whole lot more than determining the resonant frequency. With each passing year, I'm coming to understand the relative strengths of the Triplanar and the Schroeder. I don't mean to leave out other fine arms in this discussion, but it is these two with which I have had the most experience. Like Ralph, the evolution of my taste has taken my preference to the Triplanar (and by inference the great Micro Seiki and other arms of the past). I'm coming to see a philosophical junction between OTL's and what the Triplanar does so well, equally as I see an affinity between the best transformers and Schroeders. No one can tell you what to like ;-) Still, it starts with the drive system, and I wish I had the opportunity to hear the Oswald Mill room. The nature of these shows is such that we are tightly bound to our rooms as exhibitors and must use our friends' ears as proxies. For this, I am most appreciative of your comments, and we seem to be hearing the same things. This Summer, we began a drive system project as well, and we have been working with the same circuit designer with whom the boys from the Mill have been working. This controller has made it to our short list of candidates. I see real promise in these drive systems, but there's quite a bit of evaluation to be done and I'm not ready to toss out the legacy controller for perhaps 18-24 months ... if at all. Time will tell. There's quite a bit of work to be done here, but I digress. These are great times for analog. Cheers, Thom @ Galibier |
To start with the Triplanar is a more capable arm than the Schroder, with all due respect.
Having spent years in the service sector repairing audio gear, I don't think I would agree that just because a turntable is belt drive that that means it will have a speed variation (at least, one that is measurable). So far the turntables with the least amount of measurable speed variation have either been belt or direct drive (and in the case of the latter, the table in question is the Technics SP-10).
I would point to weak motor issues as being a common problem with belt drive machines. Its something you cannot get away with in an idler drive, which otherwise tends to be a noisier drive system as the motor has greater acoustic coupling to the platter. If you put a strong enough motor on a belt drive machine, you can get W&F specs that are below measurability. I'm not a fan of servo-controlled systems as they tend to 'hunt' for the correct speed (a common problem with direct drive and many belt systems).
So while I agree that many belt drive machines have speed weaknesses, it is not accurate to say that they **all** do. |
Hi John, Great question. How were you able to separate which components contributed to or detracted from the wonderful sound in that room? Separating which component is contributing what in an unfamiliar system is indeed difficult, often impossible. No argument there. That said, there are certain types of sonic damage that only a turntable (or tape deck) can produce. These are in the domain of “temporal correctness”, as Palasr put it just above. Pitch accuracy and stability on held notes is a function of platter rotational speed. Nothing else in an audio system damages pitch like a platter that can’t maintain speed accuracy and stability. The same is true of the harmonic relationships produced by natural instruments. LP’s can be chosen to test this, and I brought one such with us - specifically to test Win’s table. No TT is perfect of course, but the Saskia came notably closer in this regard than any table we’ve heard. Except for the Saskia, every table we heard at RMAF exhibited audible errors in this area, some worse than others of course. (Dan_Ed joked in an email yesterday that he’s surprised we liked anything!) We walked out of several rooms just because we heard the table speed wavering, and that included tables costing north of $20K. Prime example: any table that uses a rubber(y) drive belt will be speed inaccurate by definition, and the effect has always been audible to us in any system. Even the excellent, three-motor TW-Acoustic Raven suffers from this, though it’s better than most rubber belt drives and the slight softness of the speakers in that room helped mask it. The HRX in the Soundsmith room was worse. Hope that’s enough examples, I don’t want to trash anybody’s favorite table. I have listened to Schroder arms and the Voice cartridge in several highly revealing systems. In all of these systems, the Schroder arms and the Voice cartridge didn’t appear to be mediocre but rather clearly outperformed the previous arms and cartridges. It wasn’t even close. I believe the Schroder arm is nothing but the best. And while the Voice is not the best cartridge I have ever listened to, cartridges that bettered it carried a much higher price tag. The Voice at its current price seems to be a steal. When I said Winn’s table deserves top class components I meant it literally and without regard to price. Win was using Jonathon's Schroeder Model Two. Like you, I believe that arm is the best in its price class, but that doesn’t make it top class or “nothing but the best”, as you put it. Frank himself wouldn’t claim that or he’d never sell a Reference. As for the Voice, we may have different sonic priorities. |
Before I forget it, many thanks to Cello and Vetterone for making possible the wonderful evenings. I had a great time in the two-for-one room!!!
John |
Hello Doug,
I was also at the RMAF and had a great time getting to know new people as well spending time with old friends. I agree with you that the sound at the Oswaldsmill room was among the best at the show. However, I’m puzzled by one of your comments.
Win's beauty deserves a better arm and cartridge than it had, nothing but the best in fact. My vote for Best Component in Show.
How were you able to separate which components contributed to or detracted from the wonderful sound in that room? I have listened to Schroder arms and the Voice cartridge in several highly revealing systems. In all of these systems, the Schroder arms and the Voice cartridge didn’t appear to be mediocre but rather clearly outperformed the previous arms and cartridges. It wasn’t even close. I believe the Schroder arm is nothing but the best. And while the Voice is not the best cartridge I have ever listened to, cartridges that bettered it carried a much higher price tag. The Voice at its current price seems to be a steal.
Thanks for your quick review. I am eagerly awaiting your in-depth report.
John |
Twer definitely a pleasure putting faces to names, and thanks again to Cello for his kind facilitation.
Aside from all the human connections, A'gon member and otherwise, that are always a stimulating and gratifying aspect of the shows, there were a few standout rooms for me, in various capacities. Intuiting which components are doing what, in the context of a system and room, is always an interesting sport. Doing this without reference discs is a losing battle. I brought a CDR of minimalist acoustic reference tracks including a couple that I engineered myself, as well as a wonderful test pressing of Analogue Productions Li'l Hatch LP, which impressed and revealed wherever I went. It shouldn't be too surprising how many rooms had minor to major set up problems, from accidental channel reversal to phase problems, not to mention the usual room reflections in the midrange and bass.
It was a major coup to connect with Todd Garfinkle of MA Recordings and hear his treasure trove of stunning CDs of mind blowing music form his world travels. Beautifully and naturally recorded, they came to life through the always magically nuanced VivA Solista amp and Trenner and Friedl Ella speakers, although not my favorite model in their line. I came home with nine CDs, and that from someone who rarely buys anything but LPs anymore. Another highlight was hearing live unamplified music up close and personal in the Soundsmith room, associated with a charity recording project that should be quite special from a number of angles.
I was gratified to hear how well the Wilson Benesch Speakers coupled with a new DeHaviland integrated push-pull amp. There were a number of successful implementations of Lowther style drivers that didn't exhibit the mid treble peakiness and lack of bass, albeit usually supplemented with woofers. One of the best of show for me was the Sante Fe Audio room featuring the Continuum Criterium/Copperhead table/arm fitted with a PC-1 mated with Wavac electronics and Lansche Speakers. The system was delicately articulate and dynamic through the entire range. No surprise there.
One interesting demo sticks in my mind in the always entertaining Acoustic Revive room of the Ultra Low Frequency Pulse Generator. Although the sound, both before and after, was not great, the difference with the device activated was astounding to all present, and better.
So many rooms... so little time.
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Doug,
It was very nice meeting you and Paul; I also happen to agree that the Oswald Mills room was entirely engaging and gets my vote for Best of Show; I spent more time there than in any other room - aside from perhaps the Highwater Sound rooms, both of which I enjoyed considerably (although for different reasons - Jeff brought great LPs, and had a mono cart). Win is doing something quite right with his Saskia table, and the entire system was extremely revealing yet tuneful, capable of exquisite low-level resolution with a temporal correctness that was nothing short of open-reel quality. All this with 2 watts of 2A3 - cool. I also liked the full-range Feastrex room in the back-loaded Urushi cabinets - I thought the system had coherency in spades, even with a digital front-end. There were a few other things here and there that made me linger for a bit and I'd say on whole, this year featured more good-sounding rooms than last year's show.
My thanks also to Larry for the Fri/Sat evening GTGs. Fun was had by all (despite Garcia's mediocre "margaritas" which tasted more like Slushys to me..) and it was nice to finally attach some faces to the usernames. Until next year...
-Richard |
Too busy catching up at work for a full report. Quick impressions...
A huge thank you from Paul and me to Larry and Steve for the A'gon receptions at "Garcia's". Friday night was great, Saturday night was better! I got to meet many A'goners for the first time. I didn’t know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve!
BEST COMPONENTS
Win's (Mosin's) Saskia turntable. WOW! I expected a lot and it's much better. We brought an LP specifically chosen to reveal certain shortcomings which we'd predicted. The Saskia proved us wrong by playing it beautifully. Macrodynamic pace and microdynamic timbre were both rock-steady through transients of every description, the best speed performance of any table I've heard. Win's beauty deserves a better arm and cartridge than it had, nothing but the best in fact. My vote for Best Component in Show. I'd only want to hear it in a quiet environment with top class companions before saying it's completely worth the rather impressive asking price.
Reinhardt Thoress' 300B mono amps (in the Highwater Sound room). New to me, but they made extraordinary music.
Odeon Speakers (being driven by the above amps), a completely involving musical performance from very small floorstanders. Proof again, if it were needed, that efficient, easy to drive speakers and a great low powered amp are the key to clarity and musical honesty.
Audio Kharma speakers (here and there). If only they did bass, they do everything else so well.
BEST ROOMS
Highwater Sound (room 1116), with the Thoress amps, Odeon speakers plus Thomas's TW-Acustic Raven and four tonearm/cartridge combos. Fully integrated sound, slightly softer than a Kharma or a screen but not so much that we objected, and fully engaging on each of our three visits. A room worth coming back to. Paul's vote for Best Room in Show.
Oswaldsmille Audio (room 464), with Win's table, Schroeder Model 2 + Soundsmith Voice (this table deserves much better), a little Tectron amp and the only large horn speakers Paul and I have ever been able to tolerate. Not only did we tolerate, we stayed for nearly two hours, more time than we spent in any other room.
INTERESTING STUFF
Nordost Quantum QX2 and QX4 power circuit treatments/conditioners/thingies. We're still puzzling out how they work, but work they do.
MISSING STUFF
Wish Coincident speakers had been there. Something I haven't heard but want to.
OTHER STUFF
Room after room that sounded boring, wretched or downright painful. Paul's long time fantasy of buying a certain speaker was shattered: we heard it in three rooms, ran screaming from all three. Somebody must enjoy them.
BIGGEST/SADDEST MYSTERY
I know show conditions are tough, but why would a premier speaker manufacturer whose products I know are good, plus a premier electronics manufacturer whose products have impressed me in both my system and others, showcase their elite models using a mid-market CD player. I suppose some other arrangement must have fallen through, but they should have begged, borrowed, bought or stolen one of the umpteen top shelf digital players floating around the hotel. As it was, they spent a fortune on the largest ballroom in the show to demonstrate the ability of superb electronics and speakers to reveal the inadequacies of a third rate CDP. High hopes going in, very sad going out (about 30 seconds later).
MOST FRIGHTENING
Frighteningly expensive speakers that looked like robots on LSD, and sang like them too.
MOST FUN
Meeting so many of my friends, dinner with Tim (Piedpiper), watching Paul get schnockered at Tri Mai's free single malt reception (now that's a class act), seeing Chris Brady's new tonearm and hearing his enthusiastic explanation of some of its features, watching Thom and DocSavage not panic on Thursday night when he realized the phono stage they'd just delivered was in fact a line stage and he couldn't play anything but a 60hz hum, learning that Vacman, Dave Slagle and another guy we met are near neighbors so we can trade visits, discovering there was a Starbucks in the lobby so I didn't have to drink the so-called coffee in the restaurant at breakfast, sleeping in on a weekday, chatting with other audio geeks while waiting for the ever stalled elevators, etc........
Great time! Thanks to all who make it possible.
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Well said, Paul. I accomplished what I hoped to and then some, so although attendance was down a bit, it was exciting. And as always it was fun to associate names with faces. I recommend RMAF way over CES for those not in the business. |
We should also thank Cello (Larry) and Vetterone (Steve) for putting the Agon get together on.
Hangin out with Jeff, Thomas and Reinhard and the High Water Sound crew was a blast for me. I loved the sound. I also saw first hand the huge undertaking it is to put a room together and show off your gear, so I have a lot more respect for the dealers who attend and show at these events. Well done Jeff!
Hopefully people like us can continue to afford these toys in our current economic conditions and keep these dealers and these great shows alive.
Paul |
It was great being there, and a first for me. Our room sounded as well as we expected, but the best thing of all was being able to put AudiogoN names to faces.
Meanwhile, I am soooo tired.
Win |
Congratulations, David!
Brian |
I would also like to mention I did not like one of the 500K rooms, however, they would be great PA systems for a Techno Bar. |
I will give more detail when I get time soon.
Classic Audio Reproductions All Field Coil Speakers, Oswaldmill Audio, and Vivid Audio Speakers room, were actually the only rooms I really enjoyed. These rooms were miles ahead of the other rooms, not really even close to me. But I too will look forward the wide range of opinions to come. ; 0 )
The Classic Audio Reproductions will be delivered to my house this week! I hope my room can handle them. |
Hi Guys,
I've returned from RMAF 2008. I will try to post my thoughts in a day or so. I didn't take as many pictures or get to visit as many rooms as I did last year.
For starters, I really enjoyed the time talking with folks and listening to some fairly well setup systems. One thing is for sure, there are many flavors of system setups that will appeal to the tastes of the majority of attendees. So, some systems you will like and others you will not.
Dre |
I'm in Colorado Springs on business and will drive up to Denver for the show tomorrow and fly back home late Saturday. I hope to see some of you guys around! |
Suggestion to all attending Cello's welcome gathering, save your name tag and wear it the next day. I know we'll all have show name tags, but the sight of a different one lets you know that the wearer is probably another A'goner.
HI HO! HI HO!
IT'S OFF TO PACK I GO!
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Dan,why the angst? Be happy!!
You've got some great "working" equip,and warm weather to look forward to.
Maybe your friend Doug,will bring you back a nice Lamm T-shirt.It should look nice in the sun.
My close friend is going for the second straight year.He'll bring me back "maybe" a spec sheet,if I'm lucky.
Well,you're better liked than me anyway -:)
There's always the Stereophile show.
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Dan, I'm very sorry you are not going. We have some things in common. It would have been fun to meet you. Hopefully next year.
The hard party of the show is being so focused on getting to the rooms one can forget to look up and observe those individuals around us. If one of you happen to notice me walking around, Please stop me and say hello...
Jloveys, I think it is a great suggestion to use this thread to give a recap of our RMAF adventures - Especially deserving are our analog ones. I'll make a point of, at the very least, giving a small summary of my adventures.
Guess I better start packing,
Dre |
Cello,
I will miss meeting you and buying you a bottle of champagne or single malt for turning me on to the rollerblocks. Well, maybe someday I can repay you with some really excellent pie.
Damn! Damnit! Damnit all! |
I'll be there, my first RMAF. Looking forward to meeting up and to it being a step from the usual CES insanity. |
Dan,
I'm holding the Andalusians out as an incentive for Larry to visit! (Nudge...)
That LP's too rare to risk bringing to a show, and ours is a first pressing. (Maybe the only pressing?!) Not bad for $3, eh?
Thom,
Thanks for the tips on how to make the most of our show time. Very helpful.
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All ...
Definitely write in your A'gon handles on your name tags. You'll meet the nicest folks ... even ones you've been disagreeing strongly with on this and other forums ;-)
A note about show strategy: sheep-like behavior manifests itself, as a large majority of attendees wander around the show aimlessly without a plan - especially in the early hours as they struggle to orient themselves. You'll find most end up working their way from the ground floor to the upper floors.
Reverse the flow and start at the top!
In the Marriott, there are 3 main exhibit areas:
1. The Tower where we are located (1128 & 1130)
2. A central, shorter tower (5 floors?)
3. The the main floor and mezzanine ballrooms - with both exhibits and vendor booths (records, accessories, etc.).
This is the first year that a second, adjacent hotel (The Hyatt) is in play, so I don't know the logistics there.
Invariably, Saturday is the big day, and we find that the top floor of the main tower where we are located gets most crowded in the middle toward the end of the day.
The general trend on the rest of the 11th floor is the same. So (the secret is out), start at the top floors and work your way down. Use the stairways as comfort and physical condition permit.
Oh yes ... as far as the Scissor Sisters is concerned, there's an appropriate volume level for every type of music. You wouldn't listen to The Who at the same level as you would Corelli. So, Jazzdoc ... bring it on, and I'll have a very special Jefferson Airplane live cut to play you from "Bless It's Pointed Head".
Having said that, once we pass our 20's, our tolerance for things loud diminishes with each passing decade. At the last Little Feat concert I attended this Spring (wow!), I was more than happy to have my 25dB attenuators in my musician's earplugs (highly recommended).
Back to show prep now ...
Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier |
I'll be there. Look forward to meeting fellow audiophiles, especially 'Goners. |
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Doug,
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Crashing won't be necessary....You are more than welcome.
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The Joy in the show is seeing all of your friends....for a weekend
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Rgds,
Larry
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Doug, has Larry never heard your Andolusian LP? :-0 |
It's unfortunate that for the most part, systems with low noise floors don't get to strut their stuff at shows because of this. Subtlety, to a large extent is lost. That's always been our fear, and somewhat explains why we've never gone to a show. Aside from the unavoidable noise pollution, the overworked hotel electrical circuits won't help such systems either. But we'll crash Larry's bash, drop in unannounced on all our favorite exhibitors, annoy Thom by bringing 52 Baroque LP's that need a super low noise floor to appreciate and generally be nuisances. Should be a blast! |
I hope that all of you will have time to drop by and visit us in the Evergreen Lobby, and take a moment to register for our attendance prize drawings. We will have drawings on both Saturday and Sunday.
We have several new products and product lines as well.
I hope to have a chance to visit with each of you.
Jim Pendleton
Osage Audio Products, LLC |
What hour is reserved for the "Scissor Sisters" at ear drum piercing levels? I figure on being tired and needing to clear the room around 4 in the afternoon ;-) Seriously however, I need to get with the "program manager" to figure this out and publish. Cheers, Thom @ Galibier |
Dear friends: WoW!!!!, with all of you there I'm sure that we are all lucky enough at Agon because we shall have the best Audio Show " review " ever.
I'm sure that the people like me that can't attend this time are and will with very high expectation your in peace return to home to start posting all your wonderful findings out there.
Have fun and good luck to all of you!!!
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Thom,
What hour is reserved for the "Scissor Sisters" at ear drum piercing levels? |
Agreed, Steve, and furthermore, the best gear is at a disadvantage as the "look at me" exhibits across and down the hall from most rooms blast at mega-levels which can't help but leak into your exhibit room.
It's unfortunate that for the most part, systems with low noise floors don't get to strut their stuff at shows because of this. Subtlety, to a large extent is lost.
It's one reason they'll have to pry the end suite I've been occupying since the first year of the show from my cold, dead hands. In addition to being one of the largest rooms at the show (apart from the 5 ballrooms, that is), we can position the listening seats far from the door. This coupled with having only one neighbor, means there's minimal (but still some) sonic polution from other rooms.
The worst of it as you'd guess is that the rooms with the worst systems are the worst offenders in the loudness department. A system has to be pretty mediocre to sound bad in the hallway walking by, and you can tell in a heartbeat the rooms you absolutely don't want to set foot in. In this sense (and only this sense), they're doing you a favor.
Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier |
Loudness of the demonstrations
One thing that seems to get over-looked while making comparisons at events like RMAF, or smaller shows like VSAC is the decibel level of the demonstrations. For that matter, it often fails to get mention during equipment reviews in the major audio mags. Yet it is important.
How can you discern the difference between equipment when one demo is heard at less than 70 db but the next one is heard at 78db? Does this make for a fair comparison? I'm leaning toward the negative. No. You have to compare the equipment under similar conditions, including loudness levels.
I request the following for attendees and participants....and the press. If you have an spl meter, bring it and use it. When reporting back about the event, if you do, include the listening levels heard within your comparisons between rooms. It would be useful commentary.
tia
-Steve
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Hello from Larry at The Palace,
I will be visiting all the rooms at the RMAF, listening and taking photos like
always. I personally think that every audiophile should make it to Denver for
the RMAF if it's possible. It's a beautiful experience to go to these shows,
it's an opportunity to see and hear lots of components and see many high-end
brands in one place. You also meet many music lovers and audiophiles. The food
is real good too, check out Brooks Steak House guys, you'll remember me;
www.brookssteakhouse.com.
Take a look at last year RMAF event for those that did not make it, there are
two pages full of photos, it's under the ROCKY MOUNTAIN AUDIO FEST at our
website.
Thank you!
Warm regards,
Larry Diaz
President of High-End Palace
Tel: 786 388-8050
Fax: 786 388-8051
E-mail: larry@highendpalace.com
Website: www.highendpalace.com |
