$2000 turntable system


Been putting it off long enough, but decided it’s time to bite the bullet and take the vinyl plunge. (mixed metaphor alert)
Don’t want to take my usual multiple expensive false steps. The learning curve here looks pretty steep, so I figured to ask you all for some advice. Thinking to spend $2K - 2.5K. Likely to pair it with my PrimaLuna Dialogue HP Integrated and Revel F206s. Might possibly set it up with my Classe SSP-800/ Classe CA5200/ Martin Logan Montis.
What I came up with after a couple of hours of research were:

Rega PL3 turntable $945
Rega TT PSU power supply $395
Rega Exact 2 MM cartridge $595
Parasound Zphono phono stage $199

Total: $2134

Was considering Vincent PHO 8 phono stage $299 and Dynavector 10x5 MC cartridge $650 as alternatives.

Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Leo


leotis
Guess it's true.
Kinda strange given just reviewed in TAS in August.
Got one anyway.
Seems to have unique capabilities.
Just hope it holds up.

Bummer.
What other product does on the fly automatic speed adjustment?
Best I can tell just dropping the needle slows the rotation by 0.1 RPM.
Seems like continuous automatic adjustment would be a plus.
Thanks for tip. Might just get one anyway.
leotis
... need speed controller. Looking at Phoenix Eagle with Roadrunner tachometer ...
You might want to reconsider the Phoenix. The word is that the company is going out of business at the end of the year.

Down the rabbit hole...
Didn't want to get carried away on first foray into vinyl, given uncertainty about rate of use. Turns out I prefer analog to digital source, so have dropped a few hunderd on LPs. (Don't want to add it up.) But seems I need a better phono stage now. Looking at Sutherland 20/20. And need speed controller. Looking at Phoenix Eagle with Roadrunner tachometer.
Those 2 improvements will cost more than original outlay. Fortunately with advice I got here I don't foresee a need to replace the Polytable or Hana cartridge anytime soon. So thanks again for the excellent advice.
Leo
leotis wrote:
... Just as I feared... I prefer the sound of vinyl.
So my fairly extensive digital library is gonna be playing second fiddle.
And I'm gonna have to have to pile real $$$ into the vinyl....
After 20 straight years of listening only to digital sources, I bought a turntable on March 2, 2007. I had a small clutch of LPs and money was tight, but soon my stepson (who gently persisted in convincing me to return to vinyl) and I started hitting the used record stores and thrift shops. We would return with armloads of gently used LPs for very little money. I was so taken with the sound --and especially the emotional uplift that came from listening to records--that I did not listen to even one CD until October, over seven months later. 

I have a mix of audiophile reissues, current issues, and used records that generally cost me pennies on the dollar. I got many of my very favorite records for 99 cents from thrift shops and the bargain bins of used record stores. Many of them sound phenomenal in fact. I got the complete studio discographies of The Cars, the Police, and Steely Dan for an average $4.99 per album. I have wonderful orchestral works conducted by Stokowsky, Bernstein, Reiner, and others for a buck or two. So, fear not. It's a good thing.

Whereas in the '80s people rebought their old albums as CDs, I found myself replacing CDs with LPs, sometimes with high quality reissues, but often with low cost used LPs.

One of the cool things about finding albums from the '50s through much of the '80s is that most of them have an all-analog signal chain. The hunt for vintage records can be fun and rewarding. I had just come out of heart surgery in late 2006, and the search for inexpensive used LPs got me out of the house and was good for me physically as well as emotionally.


hifiron:
I would recommend a VPI Scout or Vinyl Nirvana (http://vinylnirvana.com/)
leotis already bought his system, a GEM Polytable with Jelco 750D tonearm and Hana EL feeding a Vincent PHO-8 tube-driven phono stage.
Thanks Guys,
None of my final choices were in my original plan.
I'm especially grateful for the George Merrell GEM Dandy tip.
Turns out Mr. Merrell is a "Living Legend." Who knew?
Just as I feared... I prefer the sound of vinyl.
So my fairly extensive digital library is gonna be playing second fiddle.
And I'm gonna have to have to pile real $$$ into the vinyl.
Another first world problem I guess.
I would recommend a VPI Scout or Vinyl Nirvana (http://vinylnirvana.com/)

Ensure you do not cheap out on your phono pre-amp, the Vincent looks good. I am running a Audio Research PH3, the difference was night and day compared to a smaller solid state unit. See if you can find a used unit like that or get a Decware ZP3 (http://www.decware.com/newsite/ZP3.htm).

I have run with a Denon DL-110 and an Ortofon 2M Bronze, the Bronze wins every day.

Hope this helps. 2k is tough, its enough money to do some damage, but you will make some compromises in some areas.

My reasonable dream setup would be:

  • $1500 for VPI Scout Jr (Comes with 2M Red Cart)
  • $1200 for Decware ZP3
$2700 a little bit over budget...

Another great setup might be a VPI Player TT. I don't have personal experience with it, but it has a phono pre built in, its a VPI TT, and comes with a cart (2M Red) that you can upgrade in the future... maybe someone here can comment on the TT.
leotis: Great calls all around. You went a little over your budget, but the upgrades are all money well spent: Jelco 750D tonearm, Vincent PHO-8, and Hana EL. 

The reviews I've read about the Hana cartridges are very favorable and they're consistently rated as as performing well above their price points. They evidently OEM MC carts for other brands that sell for much more money.

When Herb Reichert reviewed the new Technics SL1200GAE turntable, he tried a number of cartridges on it, one of which was the Hana EL, for which he was particularly enthusiastic.
Congrats leotis- I have no doubt you made an excellent choice. Kudos for thinking outside the box a little. Enjoy the Merrill Gem Dandy/Jelco 750....
Sorry...see your update...looks like you did go with another cart.

The phono you chose is a great unit.

Enjoy.

I'd personally avoid the exact 2 cart... I think there are better options for around the same money or less.  Of course, it all comes down to personal taste....but I was underwhelmed.

Just do some research....the cart will make or break your sound.

I found the Ortofon 2M's, Dynavectors, and the Shelter 201 to sound much better.  


Sounds so good I cannot foresee and impulse to upgrade.
And that's a very good place to be.

Congrats!  Sounds like you have a killer sounding system.  Enjoy the music brother.
So got it up and running.
GEM Polytable  with Jelco SA 750-D tonearm and Hana EL cartridge,
using Vincent PHO 8 phono stage.
(Connected to PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium HP Integrated (w/ Tung Sol KT150 and Mullard CV4003) and Revel F206s.)
About $2400
Sounds wonderful.
Doubt SQ/price can be beat.
Though I have no frame of reference really.
My bro in law is the high end analog expert and thinks the synergy is outstanding.
So thanks for all the excellent advice.
No way I could have done it without you guys.
Sounds so good I cannot foresee and impulse to upgrade.
Except eventually the digital power supply.
Cheers :)
Leo

I'm under going another Thorens TD 150 super mod build that will give most expensive tables a run for their money. My last one was sold to a gentleman who runs a VPI direct drive, which is a great super table and cost upwards of 25,000. He loves his new Thorens and has praised it's sound. this new build will fall close to your price point and will be option for you, if you can wait for the build.

Vist my virtual page for shots of the last one. The new one will vary a bit from this, who wants to build the same table over and over again? But, the basic principles  will be the same. 

Contact me if you have any interests.



Grabbed Vincent PHO 8. Has a separate power supply contributing to quiet operation. Reviews say it is very quiet.
They will put the Hana cart on and adjust everything.
Total package for less that $2K. (Still need a phono pre though)
Congrats on the PolyTable and Hana cartridge. I am sure you’ll love it.
I thought I read in one of your previous posts that you bought the Hana EL, right? That’s the low output version MC.

So the phono stage becomes even more important and just not with its ability to give you 60db of gain to properly drive an LOMC of 0.5mv. It must do it as quietly as possible. There are a lot of entry level MC phono stages out there are pretty noisy (audible hiss at this gain level), so suggest you avoid these. Look for a phono stage that will be utterly quiet at 60db before signal. Your TT/Cartridge deserves it.
I feel your pain.
I had probably hundreds of LPs when I was a kid. Pretty much lost or given away over the years. Fortunately I gave the last batch to my brother in law a few years back, so now I can reclaim these at least. Pretty sure all were original pressings from the pre CD era. :)
Let us know your first lp play .. like i said before $3 lps happen most are $15up . And some Japanese etc will be $35-$150  . Ya i know , i lost thousands in a fire and have been rebuilding many have been $25-$45  keep us posted 
bpoletti-
Appreciate the thought.
Already ordered the Gem PolyTable though.
"TAS Product of the Year" 2015
Stereophile Class B rating.
At $1495 looks like a steal.
Had to hurry up and order before they changed their mind! Haha.
They will put the Hana cart on and adjust everything.
Total package for less that $2K. (Still need a phono pre though)
George is a stellar guy. Owns several patents. Kind of a phono pioneer it seems. Apparently doesn't mind explaining stuff on the phone either.
San Diego is a little far from St. Louis.  If you were closer, you could try my HW-19 Mk III "spare" table.  It just isn't getting enough play time.  
Thanks,
Checked the Mullard CV4003 at TubeDepot and they are a little less than at Upscale. thetubestore appears not to have that particular tube at the moment. I know I should shop around more but have never had a single glitch with an Upscale tube. Have had a few bummers with eBay however.
You may already be aware of ...
http://www.thetubestore.com/.

They will match your tubes
See http://www.thetubestore.com/Matched-Sections-Service

I used to purchase all my tubes from them and they were pretty quick on the delivery and reasonable prices

Regards...
Leotis I currently have some Cifte 12au7 in the front two slots and they really opened up the sound. However, I feel like the bass output is diminished somewhat especially since the KT150's should be pumping out some really good bass.  Not that they don't but should be more. Before the KT150s I noticed when rolling in some other 12au7's tubes awhile back (Psvane I think) the bass wasn't as strong as when I had the Mullard's (CV4003) in so I rolled the Mullard's back in and viola more bass. I have 2 sets of Mullard's so I am going to roll in one set at a time and evaluate but like you I have the feeling the Mullard's are going to be the cats meow :)
I tried the Brimar first and initially was impressed by how it opened up the sound. But eventually started to seem a little bright on some material, to my taste anyway. The CV4003 are sooo good, I’ve got no interest in trying anything else. First tried just the 2 input tubes. So good I replaced the other 4 as well, not expecting the same degree of impact...wrong. The driver tubes make a big difference as well. Unfortunately Upscale bumped the price. Now $105 each. I'm sure you can find them cheaper but 6 perfect matching tubes that you know are gonna be good may be worth extra to some people.

I just put in some KT150's a couple of nights ago and WOW!!! Freaking awesome power tubes and so far the best yet. My next step is to put in the Mullard CV4003 but I wanted to get a feel for the KT150's first.
Been there done that :)
Swapped in the KT150 and the Mullard CV4003.
Sounds freaking wonderful with that combo IMO. In case any PrimaLuna guys are interested, the Mullard really smooths out the ultralinear mode. Sounds about as sweet as the triode mode. And the KT150 allows the Amp to really get a grip on the somewhat inefficient Revels.
Thanks for the suggestion. :)
Don't forget that you can change the tubes in your amps for different sound characteristics. 
johnnyb53 and yogiboy-
Thanks for the PolyTable tip. I owe you.
As for the Vincent, I went with the PHO 8. I'm feeding a PrimaLuna tube amp so I maybe got the tube effect covered. George is of the opinion that a tube phono can introduce too much distortion sometimes. I have a ModWright Oppo tube mod feeding a SS system and it works really well to eliminate the digital effect. But when I tried it with the PrimaLuna, to me it sound too tubey. Kind of lacking definition a bit.
mofimadness-
Thanks for the Jelco tip. I almost went for that VPI, but as you pointed out it was not the MK4. And a little bit older unit.
Oleschool-
Thanks for the link to your LP thread.
sjtm-
Sadly, predictions about vinyl dents in the budget may be accurate. :/

Hey bpoletti!
I'm in San Deigo area.
Thanks for the Jelco tip.
Got a few votes for the VPI with a Jelco.
When I saw the GEM used a Jelco I figured that was a good sign.
You guys done me a solid I think.
My first plan would have been OK no doubt.
But the PolyTable with the Hana is probably orders of magnitude better. (I hope. :)
And for pretty much the same price.
Leo, I have been to George's shop, he makes outstanding gear.  I like my Music Hall 7.1 and 10X5 a lot but would eventually like to move to the PolyTable and a Hana.

You're going to be very happy.
Contacted George at GEM. Ordering the PolyTable with the Jelco SA 750-D.
he suggested the Hana EL cartridge. Plan to go with the Vincent PHO 8 of which he also approved. Will probably get his digital power supply later on.
Thanks for all the great info.
Almost feels like cheating.
Buying gear and then replacing it in short order is more my usual MO.

I have a thread on remasters op .. "why do i torture myself with remasters "  
i had a vpi hw19 if it wasnt a 4 i would opt for a scout . But your budget is going up .. as for viynl most truely mint rock is 15-30 bks . Shoot for Japanese pressing when you can . I stay away from remasters whenever possible 90% of the time 
 And TAS 2015 Product of the Year for  GEM Polytable is definitely a significant recommendation.
Looks like the GEM Polytable uses the Jelco SA-250 tonearm but can upgrade to the SA 750-D for $200. Gonna take a hard look at it.
You guys have given me pile of homework. Much Appreciated!
Rega PL3 turntable $945
Rega TT PSU power supply $395
Rega Exact 2 MM cartridge $595
Parasound Zphono phono stage $199
Total: $2134
Was considering Vincent PHO 8 phono stage $299 and Dynavector 10x5 MC cartridge $650 as alternatives.
Any suggestions?
Yeah, get the DV 10X5 and especially the Vincent PHO 8 instead.  Much better cartridge and phono stage that what you originally listed above.

Never underestimate the phono stage when setting up an analog front end.  Good luck brother.
Yogiboy wrote:
This is nice at $1495 for table.
Cartridge $350.
The Vincent phono looks like a winner at $299
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/gem-dandy-polytable/
Not only did the GEM Polytable fare well in the Absolute Sound review, it got Class B status in the Stereophile review by Michael Fremer (review not available onlien yet). This is by a considerable margin the curent lowest price Stereophile Class B recommended turntable.

Another candidate for cartridge for the Polytable is the Shelter 201 (used in the Absolute Sound review). Although it lists for $310 stateside, you can get it from Japanese dealers on Amazon and eBay for around $167. At that price it’s a stone cold bargain (I have one and love it).

A low price, high (relative) performance alternative for the Vincent phono stage would be the Schiit Mani for $129.

Another alternative: If you go with the Polytable at $1495 plus a Japan-sourced Shelter 201, you’re at $1657. You’d be only $161 over your $2K budget to upgrade to the Vincent 2-chassis, tube-powered PHO-700 for $499.95.

I have a tubed phono stage. They can make quite a difference.

90%+ of  the albums I have purchased are either original analog recordings or reissues remastered from original analog tapes.  About a third of these are AAA (all analog) which is what has contributed to the relatively high cost for me.  If It is clear that the original mastering was digital AND the cd mastering is no better or worse than the mastering for vinyl, I opt for the cd .  Still do not have setup for streaming, but expect to incorporate hi-rez playback in the near future.  Still prefer vinyl ( I grew up with it in the 60's and 70's) .
Brings up the question of vinyl reissues. Are those generally mastered from analog tape or from digital archives? Seems it would defeat the purpose if there was digital inserted in the production chain somewhere.
Appears the HW-19 listed has a Audioquest P9 arm that is the same as the Jelco. Sent a message to the listing.
FWIW (from a newbie who jumped into vinyl last year) I would evaluate the budget decision in light of the cost of putting together a vinyl collection.  While I have read many threads about buying minty used vinyl for $2-$3 each, my experience has been different and much more expensive - averaging closer to $14-$15 per album given the number of new reissues (along with used) I have purchased.  If you already have a great album collection, no need to consider this issue.  But I have spent well over $7 grand in the last year to put my 500+ album collection together.  

I ended up with a very gently used Music Hall MMF 9.1, a Dynavector 10x5 cartridge and VPI interconnect  for a total of $900.  My Marantz PM-11s3 has a very nice phono stage so saved some money there.

Good luck and have fun.
Actually, if you are looking at the HW-19 here on Audiogon, that Audioquest PT9 arm is the same arm as the Jelco, so you needn’t change out that arm. Excellent arm by the way!

However that table is a HW-19 JUNIOR so it doesn’t have the same top plate as the MKIII or MKIV. They use an acrylic/stainless steel sandwich which is MUCH heavier and denser than the MDF top plate of the Junior. Also the MKIII and MKIV have a removable arm-board where the Junior is a one piece plate.

The nice thing about the HW-19 is that is fully upgradable.  You can change out the top plate, the armboard, the platter, the motor, the feet, the suspension, so it really easy to get a top notch table for a pretty decent price.

I was a VPI dealer for many years and have setup well over 100 of these tables and still currently have and use 3 different HW-19 tables.  IMHO, still one of the best tables out there.
If you can find a predrilled VPI HW-19 arm-board for a Jelco, Audioquest, Profile, it's pretty easy to swap out.  If you find a blank arm-board you kinda need to know/understand how to drill and mount an arm.
3 votes for VPI HW-19 & Jelco SA-750D,
I see a used VPI for $975 and new Jelco for $485.
About the same price as a Scout Jr.
Does swapping in a tone arm require any savvy?


Leo, there is another thing to consider: set-up. A good TT in your price range, if properly set up, will sound better than a premium table which is badly set up.

Take-away - make sure that the TT you buy is easy to set up, and spend some time and money in getting it done right. A local dealer can be your friend here.

Get a used VPI HGW-19 Mk III or IV if you're lucky (remove the springs and use hard rubber pucks instead), a Jelco SA-750D, AT OC9/II and a used Herron Audio VTPH-1mc.  It will use up every penny of your budget and maybe a little more, but you won't find anything better for the price. 

My personal suggestion is to stay away from Rega anything, but too many have differing opinions, so I won't say it.
What I have and love to listen to:

- RP6 with TTPSU
- Audio Technica 33-PTG/II
- Jasmine LP2 mkII (way better than previous Vincent phono, I tried)
- Herbie way excellent mat 2mm

Needs no spacers for setup and sounds great with factory black belt and easy 33 / 45 switching. I also upgraded to a GT ref subplatter but that can be done later. Can find most of the above used. 
You read my mind.
Been looking at the Scout Jr. since I got your previous recommendation.