$2000 turntable system
Down the rabbit hole... Didn't want to get carried away on first foray into vinyl, given uncertainty about rate of use. Turns out I prefer analog to digital source, so have dropped a few hunderd on LPs. (Don't want to add it up.) But seems I need a better phono stage now. Looking at Sutherland 20/20. And need speed controller. Looking at Phoenix Eagle with Roadrunner tachometer. Those 2 improvements will cost more than original outlay. Fortunately with advice I got here I don't foresee a need to replace the Polytable or Hana cartridge anytime soon. So thanks again for the excellent advice. Leo |
leotis wrote: ... Just as I feared... I prefer the sound of vinyl.After 20 straight years of listening only to digital sources, I bought a turntable on March 2, 2007. I had a small clutch of LPs and money was tight, but soon my stepson (who gently persisted in convincing me to return to vinyl) and I started hitting the used record stores and thrift shops. We would return with armloads of gently used LPs for very little money. I was so taken with the sound --and especially the emotional uplift that came from listening to records--that I did not listen to even one CD until October, over seven months later. I have a mix of audiophile reissues, current issues, and used records that generally cost me pennies on the dollar. I got many of my very favorite records for 99 cents from thrift shops and the bargain bins of used record stores. Many of them sound phenomenal in fact. I got the complete studio discographies of The Cars, the Police, and Steely Dan for an average $4.99 per album. I have wonderful orchestral works conducted by Stokowsky, Bernstein, Reiner, and others for a buck or two. So, fear not. It's a good thing. Whereas in the '80s people rebought their old albums as CDs, I found myself replacing CDs with LPs, sometimes with high quality reissues, but often with low cost used LPs. One of the cool things about finding albums from the '50s through much of the '80s is that most of them have an all-analog signal chain. The hunt for vintage records can be fun and rewarding. I had just come out of heart surgery in late 2006, and the search for inexpensive used LPs got me out of the house and was good for me physically as well as emotionally. |
hifiron:leotis already bought his system, a GEM Polytable with Jelco 750D tonearm and Hana EL feeding a Vincent PHO-8 tube-driven phono stage. |
Thanks Guys, None of my final choices were in my original plan. I'm especially grateful for the George Merrell GEM Dandy tip. Turns out Mr. Merrell is a "Living Legend." Who knew? Just as I feared... I prefer the sound of vinyl. So my fairly extensive digital library is gonna be playing second fiddle. And I'm gonna have to have to pile real $$$ into the vinyl. Another first world problem I guess. |
I would recommend a VPI Scout or Vinyl Nirvana (http://vinylnirvana.com/) Ensure you do not cheap out on your phono pre-amp, the Vincent looks good. I am running a Audio Research PH3, the difference was night and day compared to a smaller solid state unit. See if you can find a used unit like that or get a Decware ZP3 (http://www.decware.com/newsite/ZP3.htm). I have run with a Denon DL-110 and an Ortofon 2M Bronze, the Bronze wins every day. Hope this helps. 2k is tough, its enough money to do some damage, but you will make some compromises in some areas. My reasonable dream setup would be:
Another great setup might be a VPI Player TT. I don't have personal experience with it, but it has a phono pre built in, its a VPI TT, and comes with a cart (2M Red) that you can upgrade in the future... maybe someone here can comment on the TT. |
leotis: Great calls all around. You went a little over your budget, but the upgrades are all money well spent: Jelco 750D tonearm, Vincent PHO-8, and Hana EL. The reviews I've read about the Hana cartridges are very favorable and they're consistently rated as as performing well above their price points. They evidently OEM MC carts for other brands that sell for much more money. When Herb Reichert reviewed the new Technics SL1200GAE turntable, he tried a number of cartridges on it, one of which was the Hana EL, for which he was particularly enthusiastic. |
I'd personally avoid the exact 2 cart... I think there are better options for around the same money or less. Of course, it all comes down to personal taste....but I was underwhelmed. Just do some research....the cart will make or break your sound. I found the Ortofon 2M's, Dynavectors, and the Shelter 201 to sound much better. |
So got it up and running. GEM Polytable with Jelco SA 750-D tonearm and Hana EL cartridge, using Vincent PHO 8 phono stage. (Connected to PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium HP Integrated (w/ Tung Sol KT150 and Mullard CV4003) and Revel F206s.) About $2400 Sounds wonderful. Doubt SQ/price can be beat. Though I have no frame of reference really. My bro in law is the high end analog expert and thinks the synergy is outstanding. So thanks for all the excellent advice. No way I could have done it without you guys. Sounds so good I cannot foresee and impulse to upgrade. Except eventually the digital power supply. Cheers :) Leo |
I'm under going another Thorens TD 150 super mod build that will give most expensive tables a run for their money. My last one was sold to a gentleman who runs a VPI direct drive, which is a great super table and cost upwards of 25,000. He loves his new Thorens and has praised it's sound. this new build will fall close to your price point and will be option for you, if you can wait for the build. Vist my virtual page for shots of the last one. The new one will vary a bit from this, who wants to build the same table over and over again? But, the basic principles will be the same. Contact me if you have any interests. |
They will put the Hana cart on and adjust everything.Congrats on the PolyTable and Hana cartridge. I am sure you’ll love it. I thought I read in one of your previous posts that you bought the Hana EL, right? That’s the low output version MC. So the phono stage becomes even more important and just not with its ability to give you 60db of gain to properly drive an LOMC of 0.5mv. It must do it as quietly as possible. There are a lot of entry level MC phono stages out there are pretty noisy (audible hiss at this gain level), so suggest you avoid these. Look for a phono stage that will be utterly quiet at 60db before signal. Your TT/Cartridge deserves it. |
bpoletti- Appreciate the thought. Already ordered the Gem PolyTable though. "TAS Product of the Year" 2015 Stereophile Class B rating. At $1495 looks like a steal. Had to hurry up and order before they changed their mind! Haha. They will put the Hana cart on and adjust everything. Total package for less that $2K. (Still need a phono pre though) George is a stellar guy. Owns several patents. Kind of a phono pioneer it seems. Apparently doesn't mind explaining stuff on the phone either. |
You may already be aware of ... http://www.thetubestore.com/. They will match your tubes See http://www.thetubestore.com/Matched-Sections-Service I used to purchase all my tubes from them and they were pretty quick on the delivery and reasonable prices Regards... |
Leotis I currently have some Cifte 12au7 in the front two slots and they really opened up the sound. However, I feel like the bass output is diminished somewhat especially since the KT150's should be pumping out some really good bass. Not that they don't but should be more. Before the KT150s I noticed when rolling in some other 12au7's tubes awhile back (Psvane I think) the bass wasn't as strong as when I had the Mullard's (CV4003) in so I rolled the Mullard's back in and viola more bass. I have 2 sets of Mullard's so I am going to roll in one set at a time and evaluate but like you I have the feeling the Mullard's are going to be the cats meow :) |
I tried the Brimar first and initially was impressed by how it opened up the sound. But eventually started to seem a little bright on some material, to my taste anyway. The CV4003 are sooo good, I’ve got no interest in trying anything else. First tried just the 2 input tubes. So good I replaced the other 4 as well, not expecting the same degree of impact...wrong. The driver tubes make a big difference as well. Unfortunately Upscale bumped the price. Now $105 each. I'm sure you can find them cheaper but 6
perfect
matching tubes that you know are gonna be good may be worth extra to some people. |
Been there done that :) Swapped in the KT150 and the Mullard CV4003. Sounds freaking wonderful with that combo IMO. In case any PrimaLuna guys are interested, the Mullard really smooths out the ultralinear mode. Sounds about as sweet as the triode mode. And the KT150 allows the Amp to really get a grip on the somewhat inefficient Revels. Thanks for the suggestion. :) |
johnnyb53 and yogiboy- Thanks for the PolyTable tip. I owe you. As for the Vincent, I went with the PHO 8. I'm feeding a PrimaLuna tube amp so I maybe got the tube effect covered. George is of the opinion that a tube phono can introduce too much distortion sometimes. I have a ModWright Oppo tube mod feeding a SS system and it works really well to eliminate the digital effect. But when I tried it with the PrimaLuna, to me it sound too tubey. Kind of lacking definition a bit. mofimadness- Thanks for the Jelco tip. I almost went for that VPI, but as you pointed out it was not the MK4. And a little bit older unit. Oleschool- Thanks for the link to your LP thread. sjtm- Sadly, predictions about vinyl dents in the budget may be accurate. :/ |
Hey bpoletti! I'm in San Deigo area. Thanks for the Jelco tip. Got a few votes for the VPI with a Jelco. When I saw the GEM used a Jelco I figured that was a good sign. You guys done me a solid I think. My first plan would have been OK no doubt. But the PolyTable with the Hana is probably orders of magnitude better. (I hope. :) And for pretty much the same price. |
Contacted George at GEM. Ordering the PolyTable with the Jelco SA 750-D. he suggested the Hana EL cartridge. Plan to go with the Vincent PHO 8 of which he also approved. Will probably get his digital power supply later on. Thanks for all the great info. Almost feels like cheating. Buying gear and then replacing it in short order is more my usual MO. |
I have a thread on remasters op .. "why do i torture myself with remasters " i had a vpi hw19 if it wasnt a 4 i would opt for a scout . But your budget is going up .. as for viynl most truely mint rock is 15-30 bks . Shoot for Japanese pressing when you can . I stay away from remasters whenever possible 90% of the time |
Rega PL3 turntable $945Yeah, get the DV 10X5 and especially the Vincent PHO 8 instead. Much better cartridge and phono stage that what you originally listed above. Never underestimate the phono stage when setting up an analog front end. Good luck brother. |
Yogiboy wrote: This is nice at $1495 for table.Not only did the GEM Polytable fare well in the Absolute Sound review, it got Class B status in the Stereophile review by Michael Fremer (review not available onlien yet). This is by a considerable margin the curent lowest price Stereophile Class B recommended turntable. Another candidate for cartridge for the Polytable is the Shelter 201 (used in the Absolute Sound review). Although it lists for $310 stateside, you can get it from Japanese dealers on Amazon and eBay for around $167. At that price it’s a stone cold bargain (I have one and love it). A low price, high (relative) performance alternative for the Vincent phono stage would be the Schiit Mani for $129. Another alternative: If you go with the Polytable at $1495 plus a Japan-sourced Shelter 201, you’re at $1657. You’d be only $161 over your $2K budget to upgrade to the Vincent 2-chassis, tube-powered PHO-700 for $499.95. I have a tubed phono stage. They can make quite a difference. |
90%+ of the albums I have purchased are either original analog recordings or reissues remastered from original analog tapes. About a third of these are AAA (all analog) which is what has contributed to the relatively high cost for me. If It is clear that the original mastering was digital AND the cd mastering is no better or worse than the mastering for vinyl, I opt for the cd . Still do not have setup for streaming, but expect to incorporate hi-rez playback in the near future. Still prefer vinyl ( I grew up with it in the 60's and 70's) . |
FWIW (from a newbie who jumped into vinyl last year) I would evaluate the budget decision in light of the cost of putting together a vinyl collection. While I have read many threads about buying minty used vinyl for $2-$3 each, my experience has been different and much more expensive - averaging closer to $14-$15 per album given the number of new reissues (along with used) I have purchased. If you already have a great album collection, no need to consider this issue. But I have spent well over $7 grand in the last year to put my 500+ album collection together. I ended up with a very gently used Music Hall MMF 9.1, a Dynavector 10x5 cartridge and VPI interconnect for a total of $900. My Marantz PM-11s3 has a very nice phono stage so saved some money there. Good luck and have fun. |
Actually, if you are looking at the HW-19 here on Audiogon, that Audioquest PT9 arm is the same arm as the Jelco, so you needn’t change out that arm. Excellent arm by the way! However that table is a HW-19 JUNIOR so it doesn’t have the same top plate as the MKIII or MKIV. They use an acrylic/stainless steel sandwich which is MUCH heavier and denser than the MDF top plate of the Junior. Also the MKIII and MKIV have a removable arm-board where the Junior is a one piece plate. The nice thing about the HW-19 is that is fully upgradable. You can change out the top plate, the armboard, the platter, the motor, the feet, the suspension, so it really easy to get a top notch table for a pretty decent price. I was a VPI dealer for many years and have setup well over 100 of these tables and still currently have and use 3 different HW-19 tables. IMHO, still one of the best tables out there. |
Leo, there is another thing to consider: set-up. A good TT in your price range, if properly set up, will sound better than a premium table which is badly set up. Take-away - make sure that the TT you buy is easy to set up, and spend some time and money in getting it done right. A local dealer can be your friend here. |
Get a used VPI HGW-19 Mk III or IV if you're lucky (remove the springs and use hard rubber pucks instead), a Jelco SA-750D, AT OC9/II and a used Herron Audio VTPH-1mc. It will use up every penny of your budget and maybe a little more, but you won't find anything better for the price. My personal suggestion is to stay away from Rega anything, but too many have differing opinions, so I won't say it. |
What I have and love to listen to: - RP6 with TTPSU - Audio Technica 33-PTG/II - Jasmine LP2 mkII (way better than previous Vincent phono, I tried) - Herbie way excellent mat 2mm Needs no spacers for setup and sounds great with factory black belt and easy 33 / 45 switching. I also upgraded to a GT ref subplatter but that can be done later. Can find most of the above used. |
