Phillip,
Okay, I see where you`re going better now. I think the VAC does sound a 'bit' richer and the CSL relatively 'lighter -airier'.But overall both get to the core and the soul of music and do so very deeply and with conviction(many components don`t). I believe a lot of the difference with these two are the intrinsic sound of their different tube types(9 pin minature vs 4 pin DHT tube)and different approach to volume control.Everything matteres and has an effect on sound.I find both just excellent at the special subtlties,nuance and inner detail.
The trade offs are very modest(no two components are identical). The VAC has a fuller tone and body(very slight margin) and the CSL a slight edge in transparency(again,very narrow margin).The thing is, both have superb tonality and transparency(minute differences aside).
In the big picture I just find them both top tier and most important, very natural and realistic.I can`t imagine someone displeased with either one.
I have`nt heard the TRL Dude with the CAST upgrade so I can`t comment.Knowing the baseline Dude and aware of what CAST can do, this would be something for you to consider also.
Regards, |
Charles,Yes! i understand your meaning of an artificial or over done 'black' background. So, what i trying to say is many many audio gears have this artificial black/quiet background, and VAC has less of this. The reverberation of notes from VAC are organic,clean & light but not as light as CSL. VAC has more weight, sounds tonally downward as oppose to tip up/airy.
With this consensus in us, is the Dude's quietness background you heard belong to the "black" background as you said or somewhere between VAC and the neutrality of CSL?? Thanks for helping me.
Regards. |
Hello Phillip,
Not sure if I completely understand your analogy.The CSL is very quiet but in a nautral sense,as opposed to an artificial or over done 'black' background. What did you think of the CSL compared to the VAC Signature? Both are superb but different.I could be very happy with either.
Charles, |
hi Charles, sorry to bother you with questions again.
With some audition experiences, i found out there are 2 types of distinctive background silence. First type: imagine yourself on a huge plateau of grassland or perhaps on Antarctica (going for extreme!) where there's miles of open space, no walls,no civilizations, no birds & crickets sound, maybe wind you can feel but no sound of it. There's nothing to hear, pure absolute silence(seen such places on National Geographic!) Now if a live band is playing on such place, what you hear is music notes with its extension/decay and air around instruments (music float in space,no blurry imaging). We hear this music emanates from this "air of quietness" or ambience so to speak, no reflected sound or reflected harmonics. Coincident Linestage is few hair strands close to this type of silence where music emanates from, do you agree?
Second type(most common), imagine yourself alone in a closed hall/theatre (either big or small), and there's no sound. Now this silence you get is definitely different from the quietness you encounter in the first type, right? Sometimes if the hall is small enough,the silence may cause ringing in your ear. If the same band(from the plateau example) playing the same music in this venue(well design & properly damped), we'll hear a nice soundstage & its reflected sound, however, overall music would sound different from the former right? as the music it emanates from has a different type of silence, right? i think this type of quietness which we "hear" are generally refer as dark/black. Also tonally refer as tip down, IMHO, since the reflected sound is losing energy and the effects we hear is more of lower,tone down reverberation??
Charles,i heard VAC signature and it exhibit much less of this "tone down" silence characteristic compared to others, is this silence what you hear too? |
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Based on my recent experience with Duelund Cast in my speakers and DAC I`m sure they`re excellent in the Dude also.
The Coincident Statement Linestage and the TRL Dude with CAST capacitors represent superb linestage results for a reasonable cost.I think it would be 'difficult' to out preform them regardless of cost.
Regards, |
As per Grannyring, I agree with the TRL Dude suggestion. Don't let the reasonable price fool you. It is superb. I love mine, and it's the most natural, effortless sound you can imagine. I just received my Duelund cast caps and will be installing them soon, can't wait to hear the difference. FWIW: Paul is great to deal with |
Shindo preamps work well with many amps, not just Shindo amps. I have Shindo preamps in 3 systems - An Aurieges-L with a Bedini 25/25 solid state, a Monbrison with an Accuphase P-3000, and a Masseto with Wavelength Cardinal X2 300B monoblocks. Each of those 3 pairings results in a sublimly musical presentation. |
Philipwu, be careful I've heard from many (including one reviewer) that Shindo pres only work well with Shindo amps. |
hi,Can anyone recall the difference between Shindo, Doshi Alaap & Coincident Statement? it been describe that Doshi are kind of similar to Shindo or even surpass it,and i recall my dealer saying Shindo are very similar(90%) to Coincident, so i'm trying to triangulate the sound of them. Thanks a lot for any comments.. |
My experience is that a preferred absolute phase setting versus the opposite is easily audible on the great majority of recordings, true stereo, multimiked, mono, whatever. Now, we may have a semantic difference where the effect to which you refer may not be the same effect that I'm describing. One point, the ear is somewhat less sensitive to compression versus rarefaction. In any event, if someone doesn't hear a difference, that's OK by me. |
If you are listening to a multi-track recording, the effect is not audible. It really has to be a true stereo recording to show up. |
One needs to be at the listening position to compare the sound of the alternate settings of absolute phase. There's no consistency in how absolute phase is oriented on recordings. Sometimes it isn't even consistent from track to track. That makes for a lot of back and forth to switch/listen/switch. Doesn't it make sense to put the phase switch on the remote? |
If the preamp is fully balanced, doing phase reversal is a non-issue. We have had one our our preamps for the last 24 years. |
Passive preamps are colored just like any other component. If the coloration fits your system thats what counts. |
An essential feature for me in a linestage is well implemented support of balanced inputs and outputs. By "well implemented" I'm looking for low output impedance and, if possible, galvanic isolation of the outputs such as via transformer coupled outputs. Since I like the capability to bi-amp, having a volume control on one of the outputs would be a great bonus. Even if you don't need these features right now, these may be something to keep in mind if your systemm veers in that direction.
Another overall system requirement, again for me, is the ability to reverse absolute phase on the remote (and yes remote control is a must-have for me). Ideally, this would be provided by the linestage, but failing that, the DAC would have to provide the capability. In that case, however, you're left without the ability to remotely switch polarity for non-digital inputs. The impact of absolute phase has become more important as my system has evolved.
I'm also evaluating linestages and appreciate all the input to this thread. |
"best preamp is NO preamp"
For some this may be true(system dependent).
In some systems the lack of a preamp may'not' be enough, as many find improved sound quality with a 'good' preamp in the signal chain.
This has been covered numerous times and I doubt any minds will be changed from either point of view.Which ever direction works best,follow it.
Regards, |
I have no expertise with tube preamps but I've heard this one many times and for long periods and it' the most realistic and convincing I've heard: the Messenger Pre Amp. http://www.acousticimage.com/MessengerPreamp.shtmlIt hasn't changed much over the years and others have come and gone and yes, it's expensive and certainly there are others out there that can keep up and better it in some ways but it does meet your criteria. Good luck in your search try everything you can before committing. All the best, Nonoise |
12-02-12: Cerrot
best preamp is NO preamp. Tthey all do something...
Cerrot (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread) From my experience with NO to all types of preamps, it's a BIG POSITIVE if using the CORRECT active preamp. |
best preamp is NO preamp. Tthey all do something... |
hi i don't require long ic, just concern that it should preferably have phase switch & balance knob.
i find many have the extra emphasis on upper bass which i think the designers are trying to make vocals more enticing, most also can't create the sense of space if the preamps are focus on creating artificial warmth(midrange) instead of true harmonic richness. That's why it is difficult to satisfy all above requirements (including my earlier posts). i heard VAC and it's real good however it doesn't have balance knob & phase and its sonic have not reach a standard that make me willing to give up required features and to buy it.
Most tube pre sound quite similar in its overall presentation. i have to listen hard to find their difference, perhaps it's because i don't listen to vocals & jazz to hear their immediate differences. But VAC & Coincidence Statement are unique upon immediate hearing. i hope members here can tolerate my "stubbornness" if any as i have little experience on tubes. This several weeks is my first encounter with tubes. i wanna thank Charles & others whom make descriptive comparisons, and Ealph on sonics from technical viewpoint. i don't know why BAT REX keep showing up and why VTL doesn't?? can anyone explain? THanks again. |
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Philipwu, I have been able to sort out what kind of amp you have. Does it have a balanced input? How long do you need the interconnect cables to reach? Have you considered the effect that preamps have on the cables?
FWIW electronics do not care what signal you put through them; as long as it is a good preamp it will be equally good at doing intense classical as well as rock or jazz.
If you have a solid state amplifier some tube preamps may not be able to play bass properly. Some will do just fine.
I prefer tubes because it is easier to get them to sound like real music. If the preamp is not very fast I am unconvinced, but it must not be bright either. I like good bass extension, but I don't like the extra warmth that many tube preamps have in the mid bass. I want the sound to be neutral without editorializing. Deep bass seems to me the hardest thing for tube preamps to do right, but if they do that right there will be no solid state that can keep up. |
Hi Mbovaird
does McIntosh c1000 c/t/p have left right volume control balance and a phase switch ? Thanks |
McIntosh c1000 c/t/p - it's a three piece preamp offering the option to switch between tube and solid state. Massively wide and detailed soundstage. |
I listened and used to have some of the above preamps and now I am very happy with Einstein The Tube, however I have changed all the original tubes supplied by the manufacturer (Philips 6922) to NOS Telefunken, Mullard, and Siemen tubes. Now the preamp sounds completely different and truly fantastic, I have to say stunning.
I am an insane box swapper, I change equipment in my system at least 1-2 times per year, last year 5-6 times with every single equipment and now I stop and use the Einstein. I dont think that I'll change it in the next couple of years or even longer. I see this preamp meets almost of your needs,so give it a try ;). Tube rolling is fun also. |
Emotive Audio Epifania or Sira |
I second the Doshi Alaalp
It's presentation is beyond reproach
Very good resolution of instruments and dynamics
You did not mention if you have an analog source, Nick's preamp stage is incredible |
has anyone heard a Purity Audio Design preamp Silver transformer series? thanks |
Philip has anyone thought of VTL, CAT legend & Joule electra? I have listened to the latter 2 (not the big VTL) In brief: the Joule offers angelic details -- i.e. the & upper mids and high frequencies are detailed and perceptible, but not harsh. The CAT has serious dynamics and accuracy in reproducing instruments timbre. Driving a big YBA Passion stereo, I enjoyed the music a lot. Can't say that details were lacking either, but I wasn't really focusing on the frequency reproduction. By the way, since the Symphonic Line was mentioned: the combination of a CAT (Ultimate this time) and a pair of SL monos gave EXPLOSIVE, phantasmagorical musical results! A joyful experience. (Unfortunately, I don't have this combo -- can't afford it!) |
Phillip.
One point I should mention is the the Coincident can be ordered with either 10 or 20 db of gain. I initially had the 20db gain version which was too much(my amplifiers are sensitive,0.7v, also speakers are 94 db sensitive/1 watt). I exchanged for the 10 db unit and it`s a perfect fit,just something to keep in mind depending on what amplifier you select.
Regards, |
Philip: not sure I have much more to add, since I don't know what amps would sound best with your MLs. (I used stats exclusively from around 1974 until 2005 so i know why you like them, I do too, but I don't know what amps work and sound best with yours). Myles Astor, who you may know of- I don't think he posts here, but is on WBF, is a long time ML owner and as a reviewer, I think has been through a variety of amps, you might ask him. Assuming that they like tube amps (and your woofer is self-powered), there is something to be said for same manufacturer synergy, e.g. VAC-VAC, or Tron-Tron. Of course, that's a 'rule' to be broken too. If you are buying new, I would imagine a dealer would be delighted to loan you this stuff for home trial if the prospect is a sale of amp and preamp. Where are you located? |
HI Whart, i'm only searching for line stage only. Lucky me, no additional cost for the phono. BTW, i'm using Martin logan speakers and their sonic are rather neutral, perhap slightly warm\bloom from the 400hz down which i experience when compare to other ML speakers which using a smaller 8" woofer.
Topoxforddoc, i have extensive experience with ML electrostatics so i'm not worried about gain issues too.
i fully agreed that best is to hear it in my system, however, i have no amp and have not decide which one yet, that happen to be the bad part, or perhaps could i say i also have the luxury to match up with tube pre later for better synergy performance, and i know how my Spire would sound.
Anyone have better approach to solve the dilemma i'm in ? thanks |
Hi, Charles, yes, I heard the first generation of it in my system, however, the later version to my ears, using the DR version of the 6H30 tube is substantially better.
I am unclear whether the OP was looking for a line stage or a full-on preamp that included phono. In another discussion, the point was made that given the cost of the separates plus the level of interconnect required to connect the two components, one could buy a pretty stratospherically priced full (with phono) preamp. Buying used, of course has its advantages too.
Regards, |
Whart,
I see you`re using the Veloce linestage, I`ve read stellar reports about its performance.There`s no single best or perfect preamp but there`re certainly some great choices available these days.
Regards, |
Hi Phillip,
Whart makes a very good point,at this level much of what you hear is dependent on other system components. I`m glad you were able to hear the Coincident,I find it sublime in my system yet nothing will ever be without some relative compromise or flaw of some degree.Some other preamps may equal or even better the Coincident in certain specific areas, but as an overall package it is superb and will compete with the very best.
I`m happy that it made a strong impression for you. I find it very airy, open and transparent as you do.To my ears the tone is full bodied and complete without crossing the line toward artificial warmth and color. But this is just my opinion and in the context of my own system.
With the Coincident as a reference point I hope there`s opprotunity to hear the other preamps on your list.You`re off to a great start!
Best Regards, |
Philip,
Its really hard to make any specific rankings. As Whart says, synergy with your power amp and speakers is important. All too often people forget that preamplifiers and power amps need matching especially in terms of gain. Also knowing the efficiency of your speakers helps too. If they are high efficiency, be aware that circuit noise and gain issues can be a real bug bear. Thats why I suggested the TRON. Not only do they sound really good, they are made to order. Hence you will be able to get a preamplifier made to suit the rest of your equipment. Thats important if youre going to drop 18k!
Good luck.
Charlie |
Doshi Alaap is one you may want to look into.
I have not compared it to any other, just throwing it out to you.
Good luck |
Philip, i think so much is dependent on the other pieces in the system that any absolute ranking is not going to be terribly meaningful. I think you do have to hear these things in your system, which, from what I gather, is not easy for you to do? (I found difficulty in doing it too). I will resist advocating what I am currently using, only because I think at this level you are the only one who is going to judge what's 'right' as part of an overall system. |
Try the BAT REX line. They are built to handle the dynamics. They also have a solid midrange. |
hi Charles1dad,
thanks much for your heartily recommendation. i auditioned and was almost a jaw dropping experience. it paired with Rogue audio Medusa, Goldmund Cdp w/Wadia DAC & SuperVictory II. the only part not up to expectation is bass region. Depending on music genre, songs without much bass & boom factor would certainly benefit miles ahead of other preamp, even SS preamp such as Spectral. Its very quiet and revealing, notes are clean & clear without veil.I heard sounds buried within the huge airy soundstage that i never heard before, eg,rapid gentle metallic tingling sounds(don't know what instrument that is)at backend of the concerto, amidst of other dominating music notes. Imaging is excellent, front & back also well portray. Texture and smoothness is just right, absolute not analytical. Harmonic richness is OK though not great, perhaps due to its airyness, and because of this, separation is the Best i've encountered. From midrange to high freq. is by far the very BEST preamp i heard, may even be better than any pre costing almost 3times as much.
As for the bass part. my dealer is working out a matching amp for me. in the meantime, we also agree that i can try out other pre as well. It's a matter of balancing the qualities that i seek in a preamp. I really have high regards for Coincident now, i Really Thank You for introducing this model as i never knew this brand before.
Anyway, i would hope people to suggest or rank the preamps above as i haven't get the chance or unable to hear due to locality. thanks
- phil |
Phillip,
The qualities that you list are the extraordinary strengths of the Coincident linestage. The ability to resolve and reveal very subtle and low level detail yet remain completely organic and pure in character is quite the feat.
Tone quality,timbre,harmonics along with note substain and natural decay is superb.The ability to really hear and distinguish the unique character of instruments is truly compelling and convincing.It manages to be ultra resolved and transparent but in a holistic/natural manner.If you lean toward an analytical perspective then you may not like the Coincident.It will very effectively communicate the emotion of music at all times.
I have`nt heard all the other preamps on your list but I suspect they`re 'all' very worthy.It`s impossible to say any one of them stands clearly above all others(how could that be proven?). Owners of other preamps could make the same sincere case for theirs as I do for mine.All I can say is for what you seem to be searching for the Coincident would measure up to your demanding standards, it is an exceptional audio component.
I hope you`re able to audition it and see what you think.You may or may not agree with my strong favorable impressions.It does`nt have a remote control(in case that matters to you).
Best Regards, |
hey, i forget to mention CAT SL1 Legend as well, kindly include it in Ranking as well. thanks, -phil |
hi, thanks for all whom had contributed. i have more or less shrink down a list. could i ask your help again to Rank the tube preamp base on below qualities separately?
DETAIL: which has it as in you can hear more instruments & info not heard before, NOT referring to "detailness" quality of each note.
Veloce LS-1
Tron Syren II
AtmaSphere MP-1
Coincident Statement Linestage
VTL 6.5
Shindo Monbrison
RICHNESS: from upper midrange to high freq. emphasis on violin, cymbals, triangles, harp, trombone, higher octave of piano etc..
VTL 6.5
Veloce LS-1
Tron Syren II
AtmaSphere MP-1
Coincident Statement Linestage
Shindo Monbrison
i understand you may have heard in different setups, hence opinion conflicts is inevitable. perhaps, if you may, kindly also mention the partnering gears as well.
THANKS again ALL. i also hope the thread helps to assist GON members make their future preamp selection easier base on the strengh & weakness of the pre. -Phil |
First Sound Paramount MK3 Special Edition |
Have a look at TRON (www.tron-electric.co.uk) distributed by Jaff Catalano at Highwater Sound, NYC. TRON is a boutique British amplifier manufacturer using only the highest quality components (many custom made) with ultra short signal paths for a valve amplifier. Do you need just a line stage or phono too within your budget? Each unit is built by the designer, Graham Tricker, himself. They are built to order, so expect to wait a couple of months. Each amplifier is bespoke, so you can request upgrades or specific tweaks to match your system. GT is happy to talk to potential customers, so that he can build something to suit your system (eg matching preamp gain etc).
The Highwater Sound room often wins accolades at shows like RMAF. |
Philip:
Probably best to call Bill Baker at Response Audio or Joe Jurzec at Jamn Audio outside of Chicago, the two men responsible for the design and production of that series of Purity Audio preamps. The circuit is the same; only a few parts are of different grade and materials. I am extremely busy now at work, but if still interested after discussing with them, I will pass on my phone number. Not sure how to do personal email on this new system- I did try. |
hi Rtilden,
Thanks for your input. Certainly would be most helpful if you like to share your experience over the phone, you can PM me your number if you can talk about its detail characteristics.
At the price of Ultra GT is asking, it certainly have to be good. i could build a whole system with that budget! is the 'Reference' model sound very very close to your model? can you let me know what other preamp have you tried before finalising P.A.D. as your ultimate? thanks. |
Philip:
Sorry I don't have time just now to give an exhaustive description of my recommendation, but I suggest you try to hear a Purity Audio Design preamp. I believe that the 'Reference' model is in that price range. My experience with the Ultra GT version is astonishing. I use large-scale symphonic music as one of the more stringent tests, and this preamp is 'it' for me. It has all the imaging qualities that one would expect, along with slam, separation, definition, and yet, grace, that one would hope for in one unit. Overall, the realism and 'presence' of this preamp will grip you. An additional benefit is the ability to tweak the sound by using different tube manufacturers for the (2) 12AU7 tubes. Another huge benefit is that Bill Baker, designer and owner of Response Audio, is one of the great guys in the business. You have been given many options here. If you are seriously interested in learning more about my experiences with my Purity Audio Design preamp, I will offer you my cell phone number for greater details of sonics. Good luck. |
Have you considered or auditioned LAMM .....http://www.lammindustries.com/products.html
Here is their website.
Chuck |
