Thanks Fossda, i did hear Passlabs X-20, Moon Evolution and Ayre. Allnic, Bat Rex were suggested here but i couldn't get an audition. I find PASSLabs overall lack the airyness, separation of instruments compared to Moon P-8 but P-8 itself sound abit sterile/ hard in the notes decay and slightly more "forward" than Pass, however, overall P-8 is one of the best for doing almost everything right. Ayre is almost perfect but i need Volume Left/Right Balance. Edge, Burmester has no demo. |
Some tube options I am familiar with-BAT Rex, either Allnic L-3000 or L-5000. With the quality of sound available with either format you could consider Edge, Pass labs, Burmester, Moon Evolution, Ayre |
Phillip,
That`s my personal conclusion as well, but I recognize we all have our own opinions and experiences. I was`nt sure of your perspective or past exposure.
Regards, |
hi Charles,
i have not heard any passive. while most people would definitely say matching is very important when using a passive, i personally think individual taste and music complexity are more influential in developing a person's opinion and judgement. From the reviews of passive linestage, although different opinions were formed, they all share common underlining problem, that is dynamics & attack weren't as good to actives, which is crucial to my genre of music, hence not interested. Thanks for mentioning :) |
Hello Philipwu
Maybe I missed it but where are you located? We have many customer that are at times willing to let people hear their Purity Audio Design preamps. It would depend on your location and what model might be available in that area. |
Phillip,
I`m a strong believer in the virtues of high quality active linestages. Others would certainly disagree and prefer direct source-amplifier or a high quality passive. Have you given any thought to trying the LightSpeed or something similar before commiting to an active ?
Regards, |
hi Jfrech, these are the comparison comments i like to hear. thanks very much for the info. i agree with you on Callisto & Ayre, both which i had heard. I had not heard Allnic but from the reviews i gather, it seems sound similar to JE audio VL10.1 i would have consider both of these as well but, no avail demo. I won't feel good asking them to open up a new box for audition then not buying it.
i had requested an audition for Nagra, hope dealer can retrieve back the item on loan |
I'll have to echo Lenny's comments above. We both have Nagra PLL's on the Nagra VFS anti vibration plates. I am sure there are better preamps...but this one seems to do almost everything pretty right, little wrong.
I did compare it Aesthetix Callisto (much bigger stage) Ayre KXR, much better resolution/more quiet and my BAT VK51SE (more umpph in the mids)...the nagra just seems to split things down the middle.
One day soon I do want to try the Lamm and the Allnic (another to add to your list) |
Thanks Shsohis. but my dealer did not have it. From the reviews, it was described as notes have clarity and not hard, edgy and a big see through soundstage, too bad i'm not prepare to risk 18K without an audition. Neither do i have the chance to hear Emotiva, Veloce, Exemplar Audio, Symphony Line & Viva. i'm really don't have much choice. |
Consider auditioning the Einstein The Tube Pre MK II at about $18k. You will not be disappointed. |
Philipwu, I am not. The ability of a tube preamp to play the instruments with body and impact at the same time is the pervue of tubes and the bane of transistors. Sure, its easy for transistors to be fast (harder for tubes but what we are really talking about here is bandwidth and good tube preamps have as much bandwidth as transistors); the issue is how do you have speed and detail at the same time as being relaxed?
Too often I see brightness associated with detail and I see many audiophiles accept that to get good detail, it has to be bright. But it does not have to be that way- its possible to have more detail (than a bright preamp) and a relaxed, effortless but dynamic presentation all at the same time.
|
hi Atmasphere,
just reading thru one of your earlier post, you said "Deep bass seems to me the hardest thing for tube preamps to do right, but if they do that right there will be no solid state that can keep up". BUT i think SPECTRAL Audio would have no problem with speed if you are refering to that... |
I have not gone through all the posts but just want to state the somewhat obvious. If you are going to spend the kind of money you listed for a preamp, you absolutely need to demo the gear in your system to understand the synergy (or lack there of). While I like the build and sound qualities of Shindo I would never be presumptious enough to think that there is a "best" of anything in regards to audio. My experience is that personal taste varies considerably in this hobby. Once you get a list of candidates, try to listen to them in your system and ignore all opinions but your own. I know this is not earthshattering advice but I am amazed at how many people buy very expensive products blind based on 2nd hand information. |
Hello Grannyring, you are correct. The higher the output impedance of any preamp, the shorter the IC should be.
However that does not explain bass response, but some of that depends on your speakers too, and whether you listen to recordings where the issues might show up. This is an area where audiophiles will say things like "this preamp has more impact than than that one" even when both preamps cut off at the same frequency. IOW, its in a realm of 'in comparison to what?"
What we are talking about here is issues with phase response, which behave to the ear more as a coloration than a frequency response issue, although when the phase is right you do get more impact. |
Thanks Al. In the situations I have heard the IC's were 1 meter and low capacitance. Perhaps this has also played a role. |
Bill (Grannyring), the two ways in which high output impedance of a line level component are most likely to have audibly significant consequences are:
1)Interaction of VARIATION of that impedance, as a function of frequency, with the load impedance, resulting in degradation of frequency response flatness and other effects.
If the output impedance is very low in relation to the load impedance, it assures that variations of that impedance will be insignificant in relation to the load impedance. But if the output impedance is relatively high, it does not NECESSARILY mean that those variations will be large enough to become problematical. A hypothetical output impedance that is purely resistive (as opposed to the impedance having significant capacitive or inductive components) will have no variation as a function of frequency, and assuming that the load impedance also does not vary significantly as a function of frequency the only consequence of that output impedance being high would be a slight gain reduction.
2)Interaction of that high output impedance with cable parameters, especially capacitance. If the interconnect cable is kept short, and a low capacitance cable is chosen, those effects will be minimized.
Happy New Year!
-- Al |
Atma is spot on here. A good preamp will play all music good. A great preamp will play all music great. Now, the speaker is the piece that may play one form of music better. I have found the more resolving a great preamp and system is the better all music sounds.
Atmasphere, while on paper I agree with you that a preamp with an output impedance of 5k - 10k ohms does not seem like a good match with an amp with an input impedance of say 20k - 50k ohms, why do these combos sometimes work so darn well? No bass roll off at all and wonderful music.
I know from experience that what on paper should not work can work gloriously in reality. I am not sure why this is, but it is. Any ideas? |
Philipwu, I have to agree with Lenny here. If a preamp is competent, it will not matter what type of music you play. I suspect you are looking for something with good bandwidth and detail but if a preamp is competent it will provide those things.
So the Nagra is a contender if it can drive your amplifier comfortably without loss of bass. It is that latter issue that is a concern if you are using a transistor amp. Some transistor amps have lower input impedance values (!0K being typical); this coupled with some tube preamps (ARC for example) will result in less bass. To that end I would compare the output impedances of your contenders; those that have more than 1K at 20Hz would be out if you have a transistor amp as in the example I gave.
Happy New Year! |
Philipwu (Bjbcab), I was just about to suggest the Nagra. It's total BS that "any" preamp, not just the Nagra, is unsuitable to play a particular type of music. I believe the Nagra is an exceptional pre-amp, especially when outfitted with the balanced output option and placed on their anti-vibration stand. They might be hard to find used, but new the combo is about $13K-$14K, significantly below your stated budget. Give it a try, especially coupled with good SS amplification if that's what you prefer. Mine are paired with MX-Rs with great results. |
Please kindly read through the posts to understand what I'm looking for. Thanks |
that's because most people think Niagra not as suitable to play my kind of music which happens to be mostly modern orchestra music and contemporary pop songs. got it? |
I am surprised that no one has suggested the Nagra PL-L. |
I see there are a few Doshi preamps available |
BTW, VAC is out because no Balance volume control. Good, a list will help you narrow down the pool of pre |
Lamm Preamps are the way to go |
i had heard a couple of SS pre like MBL, Ayre KXR, JeffRowland, Pass Labs, EmmLabs, Simaudio, Spectral etc... they all have the qualities of good SS but their note's extension/decays seems stiff.
i wonder if anyone else,other than Charles, is familiar with the CSL or heard it before, it's really special,it WOW me within 5 seconds, as for VAC SIG, it amazed me after 20sec into the music. i'm sure anyone whom heard the CSL would agree that it's extraordinary in every way(whether it's your cup of tea is another story though) especially the special ambience effect that's so clear and its decay are very organic and airy,it's airyness is floating around you, in your space. The airyness other gears often convey is the black darkness silence where you hear the music emanates from.
i like to refer to a review in Dagogo by Doug Schroeder, he describe VAC sig in contrast to P.A.D Silver Statement preamp: "general sonic character of the Purity Audio Design and the VAC preamp reminds me of the loose classification I have made between all copper and silver conductor cables. Copper tends to be thicker, denser and tonally turned down. The silver tends to be thinner, airier and tonally turned up"
Given my taste, i would strive to get rid of the tonally down effect, and prefer the CSL airier effect. It's this tonally down effect that many gears have and make me hear the music emanates from black (quietness)background. i'm not sure if people here understand my analogy and i tried my best to described. Maybe different people hear music differently, so i just wanna thank everyone whom had tried to guide me in any way.
Lloydelee21,you make out a very good point, guess i overlooked the actual recording itself and too focus on working the gears to my preferred "coloration". but somehow playing thru CSL,i could hear a difference in soundstage with reduce "darkness background" effect compare to Aesthetcs, CJ...
Rtn1, Thanks for sharing your experience, i had a quick read over your system page and Wow...Congratulation for achieving the ultimate realism with your system. i'll try to learn more of your system and see how to make it work for me, but gotta admit i don't have your kind of budget, certainly make me envious, thanks for appearing here. BTW, how much is the street price for Rex?
Knghifi, i appreciate your guidance especially rolling tubes, so much to learn! BTW, VAC is out because no Balance volume control. i'm unsure about the "darkness" effect that many many gears have can be eliminated by way of synergy? i think Atmasphere has already identified as IM distortion. My cd player already had it and due to "it", the sound has rich harmonics(read as warmth) played thru my YBA pre. As Doug Schroeder mention in one of his review, saying multiple components of warmth may "yielded a very thick and weighty sound". |
Charles1dad, I think most of us listen intensely. Now I'm wondering if he's barking up the wrong tree.
Philipwu, what systems are you demoing the pres? amp, speakers, cables ...? What ARC you find not good with orchestra music?
There are so many variables ... just using a wrong PC, tube, impedance mismatch between amp and pre ... could upset system synergy.
If we have the context of your demos, maybe we can offer some suggestions but I think ultimately you will need to find experienced local audiophiles to assist you. |
One good choice is the Canary C900 four-chassis monoblock preamp, comprised of two power supplies and two preamps. Works especially well with complex music. |
Hi Knghifi,
Phillip listens very intently and I`m curious to know if he`s tried any transistor preamps.Maybe he`s been there and done that already.There`re so many good choices in audio components you can find exacty what you want if you`re patient.It worked out that way for me, so it can for anyone else.
Regards, |
12-25-12: Charles1dad
Phillip,
Are you considering any solid state preamps as well?
Regards,
Charles1dad (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread) That's the last thing he needs, more choices. LOL!!! |
Pillipw, with some Tele and Siemens tubes, you will get all the air you need in a Vac Sig. Do you know the tubes in your demeo and power cord?
Yes BAT Rex is another excellent recommendation. |
Phillip,
Are you considering any solid state preamps as well?
Regards, |
I listen exclusively to classical music. I love large orchestral, chorale, and opera pieces. I also love sonatas, trios, quartets, etc. I like the large pieces to be "you are there", and the small pieces to be "they are here". Orchestral music benefits for better extension of both high and low frequencies, more clarity, more air, more transparency. Smaller pieces benefit from more harmonics, tonal color, and decay.
With the BAT Rex, I get both, and that is why I haven't serious thought about another preamp. There is a switch in the power module that allows you to go from the 6C45 (transparency and extension) to the 6H30 (harmonics and decay). I use 16 EAT Tube dampers, 2 HiFi gold fuses, 4 Reflektor 6H30 DR NOS tubes, and 2 Philips GZ34 from the 1960s. The rest are inexpensive Sovtek and generic Russian tubes. |
Merry Christmas Phillip,
I understand your description of these two superb preamps and getting a feel for how you hear.Phillip one point has to be made though. Some of what you hear is related to the amplifier in use and really, the effects of 'all' the components in the system(personally I find the bass of the CSL natural and not over done).You listened to both of these preamps'but' in different systems.So while I do believe you got a good sense of the individual character in general terms, you`ll have to allow for the other variables.
I`ve owned my Coincident(CSL) for over 3 years.My friend jeff has had his VAC Signature MK II nearly that long also. We live just 10 minutes apart and have heard each other`s systems multiple times and usually long sessions.They both are exceptionally capable of'musicians in your room' and also 'you are in the recording venue'. I find it`s the recording that determines the site perspective more than the different ability of these two preamps IMO.
I find them both to be fascinating in their presentation and most important to me, they`re both utterly natural,emotionally involving(absolutely!) and have very convincing realism.Neither has any of the dreaded analytical,dry,2 -dimensional,flat,lifeless Hifi character.They do superbly preserve the true vibrant color saturation,dynamics,flow and energy of real instruments and voice.
Phillip you have a keen pair of ears and I`m very confident you will find that preamp that satisfies you.This is the beauty of an open market choice for High End audio components,there`s so much out there to choose from to please us individually.The CSL and VAC SIG. certainly represent a very high point of reference,Good Luck Phillip.
Charles, |
PHilip,
To be clear...you describe 2 types of delivery: one that delivers the orchestra into your room, and the other that places you into the recording venue. Is this correct?
Which do you prefer? Sorry...could not quite separate out which you were saying. Generally, given that every orchestral/ensemble piece is recorded differently (some closer miked than others)...that 'ambience' effect is going to differ from recording to recording i suspect. Thus, one preamp is going to be difficult to control that particular effect.
Nevertheless, if you could guide as to which you seek, that might help.
|
i understand most preamp suggested here are top line and i would be happy with them. i truely value all the suggestions and opinions given forth and especially some seniors whom are very helpful and patience with my queries and uncertainties. i also know there are no best preamp as each has their unique strength at each price points.
i would also like to mention my taste, so members here would understand why i'm still seeking while some of the very very good pre had being offered with its sonics fully described in their best words.. Thanks!
From my experience with Coincident LS and VAC, both are very good.As what Charles had said earlier, CLS is VERY airy, with decays extending into the space around you(fills your whole room) VAC SIG not as airy but more velvet and sweet, dynamics are a hairline lesser than CLS, above qualities heard only if you compare side by side. In bass area, VAC surpass CLS every way,it's further confirm by a review i read that 101D tube is not excellent in lower octave. But the main difference i hear is the dark black quietness from VAC as what Ralph said as IM distortion which give a sense of soundstage (but feels artificial to me because i'm hearing the event that is being played in their environment) whereas CLS has NONE, CLS make you feel the band transported into your room and you're closeup with the band. Now, your taste may prefer otherwise. However,i hope to find a preamp with CLS airyness but with Lesser in the room effect(maybe can be describe as slightly less airyness??) and have bass similar to Aesthetics. Because my music are often Large scale and unless i owns tennis court size room, the orchestral would fill my whole room and seems artificial, whereas small size music eg.jazz band & vocals would fit perfectly. I used these 2 pre to highlight the difference i felt about them and my taste. You may differ, but their characteristics they put across thru different system doesn't change as much, maybe because in high resolution systems. i'm not seeking the best but the right kind of ambience portrayal and organic feel for large scale music, not interested in pre that excel in male/female voices, or other genre. i could have describe more detail about other pre i auditioned and describe my taste in relation to them so you know my preference better but guess would be too long winded, hope some would understand my expression/analogy and offer their views. My dealers here don't carry much tubes for demo even thought they represent many brands, they have mostly SS mainly because lesser after-sales services, one of nicer dealer mentioned.
Thanks guys.
Regards & Happy New Year too! |
dear members, Merry Merry Christmas to ALL, and enjoy more music, more songs. HO..HO..HO... |
Philipwu, I heard the Doshi with a Doshi modified tube amp and horn speakers. Speakers are 105+db and it was very quiet. Typical horn strengths, dynamic, transparency, detailed, resolution, imaging ... I did find the sound a bit thin, bright and too analytical for my taste.
I bought my Vac new and Doshi has similar retailed price. Unless one much prefers Doshi sound over Vac, IMO, Vac is better value. Doshi looks like a homemade DYI project, not balance design, no features and much fewer connectors and no remote.
I have a TRL amp and other stuff but no Dude. From my experience with TRL, you can't go wrong getting a Dude plus Paul is a pleasue to deal with.
I think you need to narrow the pool of pre with a list of requirements besides just sound.
My list was:
1. Output impedance
2. flexibility - tubes easy to roll and number of tubes. Once I had pre with 12 tubes and it was expensive and impossible to find 6MP of rare NOS. This requirement ruled out Einstein and Shindo.
3. features, number of input and output connectors, remote ... I only use XLR.
4. relative value to competition.
5. reputation of the company.
... |
Yes we will talk at the show, thank you. |
Jwm, pretty sure we will have at least two types of cables there. They will both be about 40 feet long. Would that be sufficient for you? |
I respect the willingness of various posters here to offer suggestions and sonic descriptions, but, at the risk of repeating myself, so much is about synergy with the rest of the system, once the basics are nailed down, and dependent on the listener's own biases. I can't imagine trying to understand the nuances of what gear at this level sounds like in an appropriate system without hearing it for yourself, in your system. And I agree that tube rolling can make a huge difference, which just adds another variable to the equation, but one that can be fun.
Good luck.
Bill Hart |
Phillip,
As said at the start of your thread, there are simply great linestages to choose from. You have gotten excellent suggestings from people who`s opinion I respect. We all will very proudly tout are own because we live with them and know how wonderful they sound. I can`t see you making a mistake, which ever route you decide to take. No single linestage(no exceptions) is going to be the very best at everything!the CSL,TRL Dude(with CAST capacitor),VAC Sig MK II,Atamasphere-MP-1 MK 3,Shindo. They all will make you happy.
Regards, |
Correction - Merry Christmas - sorry for the typo..... |
Philipwu, I will try and help you hear the sound of the Dude (latest generation) with my words. The Dude is a full bodied, dynamic beast of audio. The stage is big, bold and effortless. The music is powerful, robust and never constrained.
In it's latest generation the Dude is richly resolving bringing out all of music's finer details and nuances. It seems to handle and pull off two things that are very hard to do at the same time.
1) Clear window to the music with SOTA resolving ability.
2) But the Dude is not light or overly airy. It is full bodied and the Dude portrays music with the meat, body and density I hear in the natural instrument and voice.
Tube choice is also important with any of these preamps. The Dude responds very well to tube rolling. Place Marconi 6sn7 tubes and you fatten the sound with a slightly warm personality. Use nice 1940 RCA's and the Dude is more resolving and intimate.
The bass is absolutely stunning in power and articulation. A real strength in this preamp.
Great thread with many great preamp choices. Life is a blessing!
Merry Christmass to all! |
hi Knghifi,
Thanks,your comments are very informative. could you describe your impression of Doshi if you can recall,what is its strength? any comparison would even be better, even if it is in a different system. just curious why many hail Doshi as supreme. i know individual taste varies hence your decision on VAC Sig.
BTW, you heard Dude before? your inputs are appreciated.
Regards. |
Atmasphere, why don't you bring 3 different balanced interconnects to CES and let us see if you can hear differences. This can be done after hours. |
Phillip, What you are talking about here is low IM (InterModulation) distortion in the preamp.
Its one thing to have low noise, that is the noise floor with no signal. Its another thing to not have the preamp editorialize with the signal. That is the low IM distortion.
You need very clean power supplies and good bandwidth, plus a simple and linear active circuit to get there.
One thing that you may not have considered is the effect of the interconnect on the sound of the system. Interconnects can contribute to the 'dark background' aspect as well. It is the job of the line section in the preamp to control the interconnect cable. Most preamps whether active or passive do a poor job of this. What is ideal is if changing the cable makes no difference at all regardless of the cable.
You will not find such a preamp that uses RCAs but they do exist if the preamp is balanced (the balanced line system was created to eliminate interconnect cable artifacts). Something to think about.... |
Philipwu,
I was in your position shopping for a preamp. I demoed pre (Einstein, Shindo Vosne-Romanee, Doshi ...) for months, in most cases it was in unfamiliar systems and they all sounded excellent. I could live with any of them and finally settled on a VAC SigMKIIa.
The sound you desire can be achieved through tube rolling with a GOOD preamp. The VAC SigMKIIa is very sensitive to tube rolling. With stock tubes, sound is soft, round, a bit veiled ... IN GENERAL, if you want transparency, open, dynamics ... use German tubes. Full body, sweet ... British tubes and a combo of both, Amperex, Philip Hollland. I use German tubes and also upgrading the fuse will improve the sound dramatically.
I suggest purchase a pre with EASY tube rolling options and dial in the sound you desire. Another good pre is Atma MP-1. I never demo but recommened to me by trusted ears. 6sn7 based so easy to roll.
If you plan to use your pre with many different amps, get one with low output impedance. From my experience, the ability for a pre to drive an amp properly is most important for excellent complete sound. |
Phillip,
Reading your posts and various impressions it seems you have very astute and musical ears. I get the sense you really love music and enjoy listening to it.Between the CSL and VAC SIG. it could simply come down to what amplifier you use and the make up of your system.
Both are ultra music makers and would make you very happy and content. Once you get to a certain level of performance it`s the little things you notice that will provoke a choice one way or the other. What`s the chance of getting both into your system, listen and just see what happens? Your ears will eventually decide.Both are fabulous, neither is 'perfect'.
Charles, |
Yes, thanks Charles.
You are spot on with what i feel towards VAC and i know you understand what i'm trying to ask about Dude. just a slight pity that i haven't have the slightest idea how does the Dude sounds. Glad you understands me anyway :-)
Thanks. |
