Some audio technicians/ enthusiasts claiming that, high end audio equipment performs much better european 220/230v even 240 UK voltage if that's the case why USA 110V / 120 volt AC ?
We use 120 volts because Edison chose 110 volts DC for light bulbs. And that was because he couldn't figure out how to create bulbs running on 220 volts without burning out .
So the question really is, why doesn't Europe and the rest of the world use 120v?
Originally Europe was 120 V too, just like Japan and the US today. But in the 50's or 60's they were able to change to 220 V. It's an advantage because with increased voltage you get more power with less losses and voltage drop from the same copper wire diameter.
At the time the US also wanted to change but because of the cost involved to replace all electric appliances, they decided not to. The average US household already had a fridge, a washing-machine, etc., but not in Europe.
Excellent info ! an american scientist friend also shared this additional explanation to me example of Kettle and hot tubs,,,
110-Volt Hot Tubs
• Pros: Have a 110-volt power outlet? Score! If you’re in the United States and you’ve plugged any type of electrical device into a wall outlet then you have the necessary socket to run a 110-volt hot tub. So, just fill with water, add your hot tub chemicals, and enjoy!
• Cons: What’s 220 divided by 110? No need to bust out that calculator; the answer is ‘2’ and that means it will take twice as long to heat up a 110-volt hot tub as it will to thermalize a 220-volt hot tub. To add further insult to injury, the amount of time your pump runs to circulate the water will also double (compared to a pump in a 220-volt system).
Questions remains, if 220 volt has more guts and torque does High end equipments sounds better at 220/230 volt ?
Audio gear such as amps, preamps, tuners, CD players etc typically have transformers inside. Whatever the line in voltage is, that line in voltage is changed to whatever the component actually runs on
"To add further insult to injury, the amount of time your pump runs to circulate the water will also double (compared to a pump in a 220-volt system)." WRONG! The typical, dual voltage, AC(single phase) electric motor, when attached to a pump, runs at the exact same RPM and HP (https://spicerparts.com/calculators/horsepower-torque-calculator), wired for either voltage. The only thing that will change, is the current draw, which will drop by half, at the higher voltage. ie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=3llc68VvzsY Notice here, that though the motors are all dual voltage; only one RPM is mentioned for all and one HP rating for each, in the specs: https://www.poolblu.com/Public/pbsShowFamily.aspx?xFM=FM043298&xCT=
Some of my japanese friends who they live different part of japan where voltage is 200 volt they say their audio gear it sounds better then 100 volt supplied areas.Known fact all the audio gear has transformers except OTL Amps etc, another person I know who he Returned from USA brought his 120V ARC REF 610 Power amps to UK He is saying that he is getting better results using step up/ down device.
Okay, real answer: safety, economy, and practicality. The safety aspect is its simply much harder to shock yourself with 120, and when you do its no big. The economy aspect, higher voltages require less wire for the same power. This is why transmission lines are all high voltage, they allow a great deal of power to be transmitted a long way using relatively thin wire. The difference between 120 and 240 is less, but still if you multiply by hundreds of millions of homes its a lot of copper.
That leaves us with practicality. In Europe, and areas without a lot of copper it was more practical to balance the risk/cost towards higher voltage. In the US copper was plentiful, we could afford to be safer.
The US system is by the way 240V. High voltage transmission lines feed power to transfer stations where huge step down transformers lower the voltage for distribution to smaller areas. Up on telephone poles or sometimes on the ground in big boxes are more step down transformers that lower the voltage again, this time because its going to your home its stepped down to 240V.
This last step-down transformer has three taps. Two are from different windings on the transformer. The third completes the circuit by grounding back to the transformer core. Thus between two of the taps is 120V, while across the whole transformer its 240V.
The three wires that bring service to the home are the neutral wire and the two 240V wires. The two rows of breakers in the panel are the two hot wires bringing 240V into the panel. They are attached to two copper bus bars running the length of the panel. The two rows of breakers attach one to each bar with the circuit being completed by going back to the neutral bar running along one side of the panel. This is why a 240V breaker takes up two slots- it connects across to both of the bars. 120+120=240.
The whole thing is quite safe, as you will discover if you ever actually work with the thing. It really is quite hard to shock yourself with 120V, and a whole lot easier with 240V!
But I know all this accurate truth is gonna blow a fuse, so don't take my word for it. This video was made to reach even the H18. Well, some of em anyway. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMmUoZh3Hq4
Anyway, that's the answer. The US really is 240V, but use mostly 120V inside the home because its safer. Please do watch the video. It makes this all crystal clear. Almost as clear as my prose. But delivered with a lot more energy.
I run my amps on 230Vac.They sound better. (Improved speed and better transient response.) I also have dual voltage plugs in my audio rig. I can switch from 100Vac to 250Vac @ any time. Remember 230Vac is half the amps as 115Vac....Just try it....
Two things that two people told me over time and I present them as I heard them.
1. In the U.S.A., safety was a concern (check millercarbon’s post above). That ended up with more Amperes for the same Watt number. More Amperes is allegedly somehow more problematic if anything goes bad in houses with lots of wood in their construction. More fires. Which then, just based on observation (not any kind of statistics) seems true. Houses in the U.S.A. are probably much more wood-based than those in most of the Europe.
2. Above mentioned poster is like a broken clock. He is correct twice a day. It is that time of the day, it seems.
The only way to find out the answer to OP is to cary the same amplifier to the place with both voltages. However, once you add some step-down/up transformer in the mix, are you sure you know what is influencing what you hear? I have 110 and 220 (240?) here. My turntable has both voltages. It runs the same speed at both voltages. Ok, a little cheating. It is quartz-controlled.
Yeah, nothing I'd like more than to run 230V in this apartment... :)
Sadly almost all American outlets are 110V, with rare exceptions for large appliances. Still, the potential is there! I mean, high voltage = less current, less voltage sag during drops.
Of course, you could also get a Sander's MagTech amp, which does a pretty good job of compensating for this.
It is becaurse you only use half the current in 220-240V hifi. Watt is watt no matter where you are. So if a amplifier is 220W it only uses 1 Amp. current in europe, but 2 Amp. in the US. So it is twice as hard on the internal of the amp. and there is more heat that needs to get away from the unit.
230V or 110V is just as dangerous. You can die from more than 51V 0,03 Amp.here in europe. Yes, someone even died from at battery 9V. He put his tung on a new battery......
I agree with you that watts are watts no matter what the voltage is. But the key thing is that in the US you guys are limited to about 1,800W out of one of your sockets, but in Europe we can get 3,000W from one.
This might make a difference to a big muscle power amp, being able to draw a lot more power out of the wall might enable it to sound better. Might.
millercarbon 'the US is really 240v but you get 110v in your wall. ??eerrrrgh. In UK the local substations get 7kV but it doesn't mean that is in your wall. But yes, good contact with 220v is quite a jolt. I know from when it was 240v and have been very careful since then.
True your power amp probably runs on 400v rails and just transforms to that from whatever it feeds on. But an easier transformation if you start with 220v and easier to engineer distortion out.
For Glupson: UK was 240v until 2003 when it harmonised with EU at 220v. The French had been on 110v up to that date and changed instantaneously to 220v. But to this day they still use the mickey-mouse thin plastic plugs and sockets AND HOUSE WIRING!!! designed to handle 110v. This would be an issue in the USA also - if it were to move to 220v, the kit would need upgrading.
Does anyone remember using Krell 200KRS in the US? I have these now 35 years old and refurbished. Full Class A, they are said to draw 1.2kW per side. On 110v ???your wall would catch fire.
... you only use half the current in 220-240V hifi. Watt is watt no matter where you are. So if a amplifier is 220W it only uses 1 Amp. current in europe, but 2 Amp. in the US. So it is twice as hard on the internal of the amp ...
That is mistaken. A given appliance will draw the same current at 240VAC as it does at 120VAC - the load of the appliance doesn’t magically change because you’ve changed its input voltage.
P = I x E P = Watts, Volt-amps. I = Current, Amps. E = Voltage.
Will a 240V 1500 watt space heater connected to a 240V source produce more heat than a 120V 1500 watt space heater connected to a 120V source? No..... Current, amps? P / E = ? 1500W / 120V = 12.5 amps. 1500W / 240V = 6.25 amps.
A 120V 20 amp branch circuit is capable of supplying up to 2400 watts continuous power. The same branch circuit will supply short spurts, draws, of well over 2400 watts all day long without causing the 20 amp circuit breaker to trip open. If voltage drop is an issue, or concern, use #10awg branch circuit wiring.
Unless a piece of equipment, like a monster power amp, consumes more than 1440 volt-amperes continuous power it’s a violation of US electrical safety code to install a 240V branch circuit and receptacle in a US residential dwelling.
I doubt any manufacturer builds a home consumer sold amp for use in the US that is rated at more than 1440 watts, volt-amps, continuous power. They know the power cord plug needs to have a 5-15P 120V 15 amp plug if they want to sell the amp to a US home consumer.
NEC 210.6 (A) Occupancy Limitations. In dwelling units and guest rooms or guest room suites of hotels, motels, and similar occupancies, the voltage shall not exceed 120 volts, nominal, between conductors that supply the terminals of the following:
(2) Cord-and- plug connected loads 1440 volt-amperes, nominal or less or less than 1/4 hp.
I remember a note in the newspaper in Germany, before 2000 for sure, that mentioned intention to go up from 220V to 230V. It said "nothing will change but you may need to change your light bulbs a little more often".
I may be mistaken but I think that whole European Union is 230V at this point.
"Unless a piece of equipment, like a monster power amp, consumes more than 1440 volt-amperes continuous power it’s a violation of US electrical safety code to install a 240V branch circuit and receptacle in a US residential dwelling."
How does it go in real life? In the U.S.A., I have usual 110V outlets, but I do have a few 220V (240?), too. Granted, they are used for washer, air conditioning, etc., but I have a few unused ones, too. I have nothing to plug into them (except the tuntable that would then be too far so no need anyway), but I did not fully understand your post about "legality" of them even being there.
@ JEA48..Thank’s Jim. One of my mono block amp’s draw’s, 1500 Watt’s @ 230V/6.Amp’s,@ 8ohm. ( Per your space, heater example.) GREAT...The wall plug is a leviton ( 5842-I.) Amp cord is a NEMA 6-20p to C-13 power cord,15A/250V 14/3 AWG 1ft long...
I note that in addition to the voltage also the frequency changes, 230-240 V 50 Hz and 110-120 V 60 Hz. In my humble opinion, the effect of the different frequency must also be considered, or at least postulated that this difference is considered negligible. In a rigorous scientific study it should be proven, not in this case
A transformer designed to work optimally at 50Hz also works at 60 and vice versa, of course, but since these are non-macroscopic listening differences, a 20% frequency difference may not be so negligible. Thanks in advance to whoever answers me .
it has been a great discussion, I would love to hear from designers manufacturers if there is noticeable difference better performance running 120V Audio equipment on 230 volt naturally requires step up/down as ditusa has mentioned in his post he is running his gear at 230 volt ,
I run my amps on 230Vac.They sound better. (Improved speed and better transient response.)
ditusa
"Unless a piece of equipment, like a monster power amp, consumes more than 1440 volt-amperes continuous power it’s a violation of US electrical safety code to install a 240V branch circuit and receptacle in a US residential dwelling."
How does it go in real life? In the U.S.A., I have usual 110V outlets, but I do have a few 220V (240?), too. Granted, they are used for washer, air conditioning, etc., but I have a few unused ones, too. I have nothing to plug into them (except the tuntable that would then be too far so no need anyway), but I did not fully understand your post about "legality" of them even being there.
@ glupson
but I have a few unused ones, too. I have nothing to plug into them (except the tuntable that would then be too far so no need anyway),
Just a guess the "unused ones" were installed at the time for "220V" window air conditioners.
How does it go in real life? In the U.S.A., I have usual 110V outlets, but I do have a few 220V (240?), too.
There is a good chance if you measured the voltage at your 110V outlets it is closer to 120V than 110V. What ever it measures the hot Line 1 to hot Line 2 voltage at the electrical panel will/should measure twice that. Example: Hot Line to neutral, 110V. Hot Line 1 to hot Line 2 will measure 220V.
Audio equipment that has dual voltage primary windings power transformer will still output the same secondary winding(s) voltage and exactly the same volt-ampere rating(s). The only thing that could influence the performance of say a power amp would be Voltage drop on the mains if a 120V branch circuit is used verses a 240V branch circuit.
Possibly another reason, for here in the US, if 240V mains power is used it basically could be considered balanced power, 120V - 0V - 120V.
I note that in addition to the voltage also the frequency changes, 230-240 V 50 Hz and 110-120 V 60 Hz. In my humble opinion, the effect of the different frequency must also be considered, or at least postulated that this difference is considered negligible. In a rigorous scientific study it should be proven, not in this case
A transformer designed to work optimally at 50Hz also works at 60 and vice versa, of course, but since these are non-macroscopic listening differences, a 20% frequency difference may not be so negligible. Thanks in advance to whoever answers me .
@ SABIH I do not use a ( step up /down transformer. ) My amps are voltage sensing. What ever voltage they see that is what they run on....Min/100V.Max/250V....
Also, the feed from the pole top transformer to a home in the USA is 240 Volts. You actually get two 120 volt feeds at different phase angles. Three phase systems A,B,C phases are what is generated and transmitted. This is world wide. The higher the transmission line voltage the less power losses and consequently the less costs in power generation/transmission/delivery.
Every home in America has 240 volts at the service panel. One can run 240 volt to outlets if desired. The power utility does not have to do anything. This is all from within the home.
Clear? USA had invested early into 120 Volts and it is/was too expensive at such a late date to change the appliance/light/equipment standard to 240 Volts. but, remember, there is 240 Volts available in all homes in the USA.
Now, audio equipment takes whatever input operating voltage and converters it to DC voltage via the internal power supply. That typically includes transformers taking the 240 Volts or 120 Volts input and converting it to whatever lower/higher AC voltage is needed before converting to DC Volts within the power supply. Rectify the AC Volts and Viola, you have DC. Add some filtering and regulation and there is your power supply.
my point, is that as long as the input voltage is adequate and the power supply is correct, there should be absolutely no difference in sound quality. I say should be. There will be differences if the lower input voltage and power isn't up to snuff.
Power = V x I = (V x V)/R = (I x I x R). The power input is exactly the same whether you are using 120 Volts or 240 Volts. The difference is the current draw changes to make sure the power stays the same.
So as long as the voltage stays fixed (basically an infinite bus), the current will change so that the power input remains fixed. If the power fluctuates with current draw, the something is wrong.
If you take the same piece of equipment and change the input transformer so that in one case it takes in 120 Volts and the transformer/power supply in the equipment converts that voltage to the necessary internal power supply voltage and in the other case install a transformer that takes in 240 Volts and does the same thing. There is no way there should be any difference in the operating characteristics and sound of that equipment. Power is power. Volts are Volts and Current is Current.
for high power amps, yes, using 240 Volts is better just because of reduces line losses on the power line and you won't need huge power cables at 240 Volts.
So, take 1000 Watts power as the requirement. P = V x I remember?
If the line voltage is 120 Volts, then the current would be 8.33 Amps. If the line voltage is 240 Volts, then the current would be 4.17 Amps. So you see the savings is in the size of the conductors because the current draw is lower you don't need massive conductors when using higher voltage. Also, keep in mind that Power and Voltage have no phase angle. The current in this case has the phase angle based on the impedance of the circuitry. So, with 120 Volts or 240 Volts connecting to the same circuitry, it will have the same phase angle for the current.
Remember P= I x I x R. make R Z (impedance) associated with Resistance, Inductance and Capacitance impedance and the power and voltage remains fixed and guess what? The current now has a phase angle.
Lots of technical mumbo jumbo, but the point for those that care, is that as long as the conductors are up to snuff and the power supply is designed correctly, the input voltage doesn't matter. Power is power, Volts are Volts and Current is Current.
One other point. Safety. using 120 Volts, you will receive a nasty shock, but won't die unless you are standing in water or some such and can't get away from it. In the USA 60 cycles per second is just slow enough that when the cycles reach zero, guess what? you can get away. Unless you are standing in water and can't get away. In other countries, 240 Volts at 50 cycles per second is very nasty and that presents an altogether different and serious problem. 240 Volts is no joke.
Thanks for your reply and explanation. Of course, you are correct. Those 240V outlets are from the time whole electrical thing was redone and were made just in case, for dryer and similar appliances (not for stereo equipment). I do have a turntable with dual voltage and I switched it to 110V and it has been working just fine.
But it is undeniably memorable. I lived to wonder if I had used all my life credits just on those events.
I am puzzled by the post claiming someone died after licking 9V battery. Is there any kid who has not done that? 4.5V is softer, but 9V should have not killed anyone just because of the battery.
That is just rubbish unless you have an amp which consumes more than about 1500 watts. Then the standard 120 volt wiring may not be adequate to carry the current. Other than that there is no basis for the claim.
@ditusa , I thought you were living in USA, voltage sensing or switch mode power supply/analog switching amps just like Nuforce design amps works any voltage worldwide are not my main concern. I'm moving to USA soon ,planning to take all my gear with me do not want sell my we91 amplifier which is 240 volt that's why raise the question , in my humble opinion audio equipment regardless of how hungry or not performs better 240 volt operation.
@ditusa , please do excuse my lack of understanding is rhode island ac mains 230 volt ? because my understanding from your earlier post as if you were running your gear 230 volt and you are preferring it this way, could you educate me how do you do it ? much appreciate your help. moving to Bangor (Maine)
I’m moving to USA soon ,planning to take all my gear with me do not want sell my we91 amplifier which is 240 volt that’s why raise the question , in my humble opinion audio equipment regardless of how hungry or not performs better 240 volt operation.
I doubt any audio equipment designer/manufacturers would agree with you that feeding their equipment 240Vac is better than 120Vac for the sound from their audio equipment.
The UK power system is a grounded "Power System". It has a Grounded Conductor, Neutral Conductor, and an "Ungrounded Conductor", the Hot Conductor. How and where the service neutral conductor is connected to mother earth in the UK is different than where it is connected to earth here in the US, from what I understand.
Residential electrical services in the US are fed from a single phase step down transformer. The output secondary winding is called a Split Phase Winding. The single phase 240V winding has a center tap in the middle of the winding. The center tap leg is called the neutral. When connected to mother earth it becomes the Grounded Conductor. The output voltage of the split phase winding is 120/240Vac or 240/120Vac, nominal. Two Hot Ungrounded conductors and one Grounded conductor will feed the electrical service of the residential dwelling.
Your problem if you plan on feeding your 230V audio equipment from the 240Vac mains power here the US, in the UK the 230V power has a neutral and a hot conductor + EGC (Equipment grounding Conductor). Here in the US the 240V mains are both Hot ungrounded conductors. 120V 0V 120V. The internal safety fusing for audio equipment is only on the Hot Line. The neutral Line is not fused. Which is correct when the equipment is fed from AC mains that use a neutral and hot conductor, as is the case in the UK and 120V mains here in the US. Not the case for US 240V mains power. Both 240V ungrounded Lines should be fused. .
@ SABIH (JEA48 Jim.) Answered your question. When you get to Maine call a electrician. It is beyond this post for me to tell you how to run a 230V line in your house. Or ask JEA48 Jim. He will know more about then i do. Good luck in Maine..
The whole world should standardize on 300 volts RMS at 100 cycles. Running at higher frequencies increases transformer efficiency. Everything would interoperate. Just do not stick your fingers into the outlet :-)
But you in the US use higher amperage fuses in your equipment and they sound better! And the us power plug is probably a better, firmer fit in the receptacle than the round blades of Schuko in mainland Europe.
220 is more efficient than 110. Three phase is more efficient than 220. 110 is less likely to kill you. The duration between pulses is longer on 110, and you will have more time to escape the grip of electricity stopping your nerve impulses. At the same watts, amperage is lower, the lower the voltage. That is why a car uses up to a 1000 amp fuse on a 12 volt system. 1000/12 is only about 83.33 watts A 20 amp 110 volt circuit is 2200 watts; 240 v is double that, and can be 50 amps in a house stove or A/C, or 5500 watts of killing power. DC gives no time in between pulses for your nerves to control muscles.: You can't escape unless you accidentally fall and gravity pulls you away from the current source, such as a wire.
Every house has 240 volts which you can use through a 240 volt breaker and wiring the outlet as 240 volts. However, most of the circuits in a house will be 120 volts because the breaker panel is split into two, 120 volt legs. I have four 240 volt outlets in my house. One in the kitchen for the oven, one in the laundry room for a dryer, and two in my workshop for welders and other 240 volt tools. If you want to run you equipment on 240 volts, have an electrician put in the correct wiring and an outlet.
Your welcome I’ve recommended it a few time to US owners on Audiogon. But some just can’t see the forest for the trees though. I’m in Australia where we have the best mains configuration, 50hz and 230v, and it’s well regulated, only >< 5v at my place, but it's also very deadly.
** Note: The Quick 220® Power Supply uses two outlets from two different circuits that are out of phase and not controlled by ground fault interupters (GFI’s). The Quick 220® Power Supply has built in circuitry to test for the out of phase circuits. A separate tester is supplied to check the outlet for a GFI. Most buildings have numerous outlets that meet these two requirements.
Note the two power cords hardwired, connected, to the converter.
** Note: The Quick 220® Power Supply uses two outlets from two different circuits that are out of phase
Therein one 120V wall outlet fed from Line 1 to neutral and one 120V outlet fed from Line 2 to neutral. Difference of potential, voltage, between Line 1 and Line 2 = 240V nominal. .
I think some of you are confused about the phenomenon of human electrocution. It’s current through your core or heart that will kill you. About 100 to 200 milliamps is all that’s needed. Since your inner body has a low resistance, it’s the contact resistance between your body (usually your hands) and the voltage source that matters. If your hands are wet and you touch the voltage source with both hands, that will produce lethal current through your heart - even if the voltage is lower than 100 volts. If you were to use 2 fingers on the same hand, however, there would be little current through your heart. That’s why electronic technicians keep one hand behind their back when working on circuits with high voltages.
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