ZYX Ultimate with carbon fiber cantilevers -- listener reviews?
Dear listeners, Any "early adopters"/owners of the new ZYX cartridges that now use carbon fiber (instead of boron) for their cantilevers? If yes, would you please share your impressions and/or comparisons? Thanks and happy listening, Harvey
"While undoubtedly proprietary, curious what adhesive or binding compound is used to produce a ZYX cantilever composed of 1000 pieces of CF composite."
Carbon Fiber is just that, tiny fibers of carbon material that are held together in a epoxy type glue. So my take on that is there are approximately 1000 fibers held together in a glue that makes up the cantilever. To make it I suspect it’s a slender purchased rod of carbon fiber and it’s probably ground down to the correct diameter on a spin index fixture on a grinder. After grinding down to the correct dimensions and examined under a microscope someone probably said "must be a thousand fibers in that tiny rod!" so they decided to go with that.
Old thread but still interesting I believe. I own both an Ultimate 4D X /TB and Ultimate 100 / TB . Before them I had a Yatra SB and for a short time an Airy 3 TB. I just want to add my findings with both the Ultimate cartridges, by saying that both have a warmer, richer sound than the previous I had. No overdamping anywhere , the contrary I'd say. I don't know if the carbon cantilever does something bad, I just don't detect it in my system. It is my opinion that cantilevers must be light ,not flex and not have any resonances of their own. The carbon is much lighter than boron and perhaps stiffer too. So, at least it looks like a good/better material for a cantilever.I also believe that ZYX must have done the necessary changes to the suspension damper to work well with the new cantilever. Overall for me it works superbly, without any brightness or ringing. In fact it is my opinion that the Ultimate 100 TB sounds better than my previous AIRY 3 TB,and definitely superior to the Yatra SB.
Hello, this is my first post on Audiogon and i would like to share my experience with Zyx cartridges. I have owned a Yatra MKII for 10 years, the suspension went off before stylus wear-common, then upgraded to 4D Ultimate SB and i was amazed of how quiet it is (CF cantilever) with plenty of lifelike images, amazing bass, stereo, and excellent tracking. I believe that CF cantilever having a lower mass tracks better and has no ringing effects. Of course perfect alignment is mandatory for this is not a forgiving cartridge. Partnered with SME V and DPS 3. George
I've posted some brief initial comments concerning the Zyx Ultimate 100H on the HifiWigwam site. The post is based on just a few hrs of playing time with the new cartridge, so will no doubt need updating, but "out of the box" the Ultimate 100H compares well to my older Zyx Airy 2 SB/X cartridge.
Hi Lew, This is from the Sound-smith website re: strain gauge -- "All other cartridges are all magnetic generating systems, which require a mass to be constantly moved to generate a voltage. The Strain Gauge does not; the effective moving mass has been reduced by over 80%....allowing the stylus to stay in intimate contact with the groove walls.....and allowing the stylus to stop jittering - or "bouncing" in the groove as it now is not trying to move a "large" mass back and forth...." This may explain the reduced "wear and tear" on stylus and cantilever. Harvey
emailists, That is indeed remarkable longevity for a stylus. Is there anything special about a strain gauge design that would reduce wear on the stylus? I can't think of a reason related to the technology per se.
Wow at these prices my soundsmith strain Guage is a bargain, since the stylus pops out for easy and cheap replacement (or to hear a different profile one) . Funny thing is that even after 2000 hours or so I sent the stylus back to be examined for possible replacement and Peter indicated it looked totally fine. I have probably double that time or more on it. Had anyone else experienced so many hours without need for a new stylus?
I said 'astonishing' and they were! They were very beautiful to look at. They belonged in a museum. Kind of like when the Met costume exhibit features a major designer like Versace or Dior.
Is great sound a guilty pleasure? Then I think everyone on this site is at least in search of such a pleasure. Maybe my Rembrandt analogy is wrong. More like a fabulous meal in a 3 star Michelin restaurant that costs a fortune but is only for 3 hours. But how long does it really last? The length of a happy memory. Like a great live performance or great sound. 3-4 years isn't bad if you can afford it.
Vindanpar, "Nice", I can understand when applied to a pair of shoes, but "astounding"? Nah. Ferrari's can be astounding but not shoes to wear while driving them. I don't think the price of a Rembrandt is analogous to the price of a high end cartridge. One is a solid investment as a collector's item. The other is a rapidly depreciating guilty pleasure that deteriorates at a rate proportional to the hours of pleasure it produces for the listener. Only to be replaced in the public's affection by the inevitable next new model. This is not to say that there is anything wrong with that. I'm all for it when the excellence is really there to be heard.
If people have 15K as loose change in their pocket and are getting a finer product I don't see why there is any problem. If you have the money there is none.
I worked for a luxury Italian house years ago and women were paying $1,600 for a handbag instead of one for $30 at Penney's and like they say about watches they did the same thing. And if you wanted a truly magnificent handbag that was a work of art you'd pay 26k.
Not to mention the men's Ferrari red alligator driving shoes(literally only for driving or they would wear out in no time) that 10 years ago cost 4k. They truly were astonishing to behold.
I have found that the Lyra Atlas and the Universe Premium when I've heard them are truly works of art.
If you can't afford a painting by Rembrandt you simply don't buy it. And in the world of audio these things are at that kind of level. You might consider the price absurd but then so is the cost of a Rembrandt.
thaluza, Mea culpa. Without having searched for Doug's review of the 4D (Atmos) vs the Uni, I do believe you are correct, in essence. Your description of his review does ring a bell, now you mention it.
Doug Deacon's review did not say the Universe was "decidedly" better than the 4D. Instead, the essence of his post is that the 4D (also known as the Atmos) might be preferred by rockers, and the Universe preferred by classical music listeners. He also wrote that he could see jazz lovers preferring either cartridge, depending on listening taste.
I own a 4D. I am very pleased with it. My next cartridge I think will be a Universe II or Universe Premium. I would be skeptical about getting the Ultimate version because of reasons stated in this thread.
I have had: Airy3, UNI I, UNI II and now UNI premium. The premium is by far the best cartridge I have ever heard in my system. I have been listening to this MC for about a year now, its excellent, every vinyl I own sounds better. You know its good when you get excited about hearing your favorite records again, like it was the first time. Mehran @sorasound is really is a great guy to do business with. No regrets.
I have owned the ZYX Airy 3, Original UNIverse, and 4D cartridges. The 4D was actually my favorite of those three. Now, there may be other reasons for that. The Airy 3 and original UNIverse that I owned had the silver coils, whereas the 4D had the copper coils.
However, the fact that ZYX changed the body design of the UNIverse II to look more like the 4D might also imply that others thought the 4D, which was released about 5 years after the original UNIverse design, may have been a better cartridge design.
JollyT, You've got the experience of actually listening to the Universe line in your system. So, I am in no position to doubt what you say. If the Uni II and the Uni Premium are progressively better than the original Uni, then I guess I have something to look forward to, should I find either one at a good price. By the same token, Chakster, it might be premature for you to judge the ZYX line if you have not heard any of the Uni's in your system. Years ago, Doug Deacon posted a comparison of the Airy 4D to the original Uni, and he found the latter to be decidedly superior. For my part, I would say that the Uni might end up superior to any of my vintage MM or MI cartridges (IMO, of course), but it's too soon to say. For sure, it's up there with the best of that bunch.
Carbon fiber doesn't take to shock well at all. I have a cf bike, and there was a caution that if should go down with it to have it checked by a competent tech.....I have cf in my car - when I accidentally rolled over a curb, I could see no damage at al, butI was told by the service dept that he would not allow me to drive the car until it was fixed.....2 months and 27000 dollars later. Dropping a stylus on the record would probably take out the stylus. I have no experience with this cart, but just sayin'
@lewm you're right about UNI PRE cantilever - it's a kind of metal. I assume it's boron. But I do think you're a bit too cynical about the Zyx line as you put it. There is a substantive difference between the UNI II and the premium in my experience. I hear it pretty much the way Mr. Mak does in his review: the top end stays extended but the mid range thickens up (in a good way) and the bass goes deeper while remaining taught and detailed. It's not just repackaging to exploit the market imho. I bumped up to the premium when my UNI II broke and I didn't want to spend more money to stay in the same place. I didn't spend MSRP on the premium (and wouldn't) but I don't begrudge anyone who makes that choice. I mean, how is a $3k cartridge more 'logical' in the grand scheme of things than one that costs 3x more?
@jjss49 i hope you know than R100 is an old model, lower that R1000 Airy 3 and way different from the Premium 4D. I doubt it can beat the ART-9, even my ART-2000 was as good or even better than more expensive R1000 Airy3. instead of the old ZYX you can also try vintage Monster Cable cartridges designed by Nakatsuka San. Even ADC-TRX MM was Nakatsuka San's design.
@unchilled I've owned low output copper Premium 4D with silver base for some time, it was step-up from my silver coil Zyx Airy. On Live18 shell with dedicated pre-preamp (Zyx CPP-1) they were good on Technics EPA-100 tonearm. But after a few years of hardcore digging for vintage MM and MC i must say that Zyx was not my favorite cartridge, but it was the most expensive cartridge i have ever owned. So its not nescessary to pay more than $3500 for a cartridge if you're not sure it is "your sound". Not to mension all those vintage cartridges available 10 times cheaper in price, including vintage MMs to blow your mind.
I still love Zyx pre-preamp CPP-1, haven't used for a while, but last night connected my 0.2mv Argent MC110 via Zyx CPP-1 pre-preamp to JLTi phono stage it was
breathtakingly
good.
Unchilled, I am currently listening to a Universe that I bought with only 10-20 hours on it for only $2000. Such bargains are out there if you are patient; this one was on Audiogon, and I am a longtime friend of the seller, albeit we live about 10,000 miles apart. Still, knowing him as I do gave me the courage to buy used. Mehran occasionally has "factory reconditioned" Universes (the original, like mine) to sell; I don't know what he typically charges for them, but reconditioned Universe II's are close to $5K, which is a bit rich for my blood, just on general principles.
Ha-ha-ha. We yearn for a review, so we can dump on it. The audiophile version of Catch-22. My neighbor up the street owns a Uni Premium. I have yet to hear it, but it was in his system that I first heard the "plain" original Universe, several years ago. Couldn't be nearly as good, because only $5,000. I think Nakatsuka-san figured out, perhaps with Mehran's help, that by constantly renaming his line of cartridges after slight modification to existing products, he can also gradually increase prices and get away with it, largely because of our top down ecosystems. If something costs more, it MUST be better. Or perhaps I am being too cynical. It does not matter to Lyra, Airtight, ZYX, Koetsu, etc, that most of us are priced out of their top tier products; they can sell those to the Oligarchs of the world, and we can pick at the lower level merchandise. If a Bugatti Chiron is $2M, why not a $15K phono cartridge?
Does the UNI Premium have the CF cantilever? I think that when I researched this question, I found that only the Ultimate series uses CF. I hope someone here will correct me, if I am wrong. By the way, the Ultimate is available in Tokyo, unlike any of the Universe models.
BTW, While undoubtedly proprietary, curious what adhesive or binding compound is used to produce a ZYX cantilever composed of 1000 pieces of CF composite. Harvey
Dear listeners, Thank you for your replies, though my interest would likely top out at the 4D, which, while not inexpensive (to my mind), is listed in Europe for less than $3000 US. I'm curious how the CF cantilevered model might compare to the boron version, as well as with very different designs -- e.g. the Sound-smith Paua. Cheers, Harvey
$15,000 for a cartridge. No matter what anyone says about the quality, that is absurd!
It's a subjective judgment. I'd never pay that kind of money for a phono cartridge. But many people think that what audiophiles commonly pay for components - $20K speakers, $15K preamps, $15K turntables - is also absurd. So who is to decide? Each user should be free to decide for himself, especially in this forum, imo.
No matter what anyone says about the quality, that is absurd!
I agree. ZYX is not alone though. Koetsu has a $14K cartridge, Air Tight has a $15K cartridge, Lyra has a $12K cartridge, etc.
I also never believe cartridge reviews as accurate, due to the fact very
few know how to "fine tune" cartridge/arm setups. Too much sonic
variability!
I just posted the review because jollytinker mentioned it. I do not believe any review, due to sonic variability and reviewer bias. Audio press is part of the whole manufacturing/publicizing of the audio hobby. 98% of the reviews are glowingly ridiculous. I know, I've owned some gear that had great reviews, but had me scratching my head.
I found the review, it is a PDF on Sorasound's website. Here is a copy/paste version:
The UNIverse Premium, the latest masterpiece of ZYX’s
chief designer Hisayoshi Nakatsuka, is a statement product
culminating from 50 years of experience in cartridge
design, representing his best cartridge ever. Nakatsuka, is
a rather private individual, avoiding the spotlight as much
as possible. As far as we know, TONEAudio is the only
North American publication to which he has ever granted
an interview (issue 63). He remains as tight lipped as ever
with his latest creation, divulging very little information other
than telling me to “go with the sound, and you will see.
Forget everything else.” I felt like I was talking to Yoda.
The UNIverse Premium is a model exclusive to
SORAsound and is uniquely different from all other ZYX
models. The design of the UNIverse Premium follows
Nakatsuka’s lifelong philosophy of strongly emphasizing
accurate signal retrieval with no added sonic subjectivity.
The specification of the UNIverse Premium follows that of
the UNIverse II, with the same choice of the use of copper
or silver coils, at 0.24mV or 0.48mV output, with an internal
impedance of 4 and 8 ohms respectively. These are
efficient electrical generators with very few windings
within the internal coils.
The UNIverse II has
changed from transparent
acrylic to a pearl white colored material, about which
Nakatsuka also remains coy.
All three Universe cartridges
carry almost identical specifications, meaning sonic differences must stem from
something other than pure
technical data. The biggest
difference is the price: MSRP
has gone from $8,500 to a
steep $15,000, which makes
the UNIverse Premium to
be the only cartridge, together with the Clearaudio
Goldfinger ($15,000), the
LYRA Olympos ($10,000),
LYRA Atlas ($ 11,995), and
the newly released Air-Tight
Opus-1 ($15,000) to cross the
$10,000 mark.
Getting down to
business
Our review sample is the
low-output copper-coiled
version. As with all ZYX cartridges, setup is a breeze as
the cantilever is clearly visible and unobstructed by the
body. Torque on the mount
-
ing screws is set at 0.65 in./
lbs., and tracking force is
optimized at 1.932g. The
tracking force number should
never be taken as gospel, as
all cartridges are handmade
and each will require a slight
variation, but should you pur
-
chase one for your analog
front end, this is an excellent
starting point.
Fear not, there is a dramatic
difference between the Universe II
and the Premium, and within a few
LP sides, it is clear that the new
model reveals much more music.
The difference is not so much
a change in tonality, but a further
improvement of the qualities making
the Universe line of cartridges
unique. Where the original UNIverse
II lacks a bit of body and
weight in the mid to low frequencies,
the UNIverse Premium retains
the near limitless top end extension
and airiness of the Universe II, further
adding definition, richness and
body to the mid to low frequencies
in a manner similar to the difference
between the UNIverse I and
II, but by a far greater degree of
contrast. Also improved is the ability
to retrieve minute details and
definition down to the lowest level,
delivering them with a lighting fast
transient response in a polite, silky,
and elegant fashion. The Premium
may very well be the most tonally
balanced cartridge I have experienced.
The superiority of the UNIverse
Premium is well demonstrated on
Saint-Saens’ “Dance Macabre”
in RCA Living Stereo’s infamous
Witches’ Brew album (LSC-2225).
Mastered by the legendary recording
engineer Kenneth Wilkinson,
the performance is nothing short of
a dynamic orchestral tour de force.
On the first listen, the high frequencies
appear relatively less extended
versus the Universe II. But upon
heightened scrutiny, the top end
extension and sonic ambience are
actually all there, offering the same
well-defined spatial extension and
instrument separation as the Universe
II. The added richness to the
mid to low frequencies renders the
upper notes less prominent – not
missing, but better balanced in
their rightful place, resulting in
tonality with near-perfect balance.
LF definition is better when
rendered by the UNIverse Premium:
from the plucking of double
bass strings, to the decay on
powerful bass drums, the UNIverse
Premium simply delivers an
incredibly balanced combination
of extension combined with an
astonishing level of texture and
definition. This becomes even
clearer listening to Wong Ka Wai’s
movie soundtrack The Grandmaster:
its mix of piano, chamber
music, and electronic instruments
in the thunderous opening track
fully demonstrates the super wide
dynamic range and contrast this
model is capable of portraying.
It is at a level simply unattainable
by all previous models of ZYX
cartridges.
Equally remarkable is the holographic image projected in
acoustical space – the sound-stage is deep, wide, and well-layered
with proper instrument
separation and sharpness, all of
which is presented with just the
right amount of sharpness and
contrast.
Some quick comparisons
To fully appreciate the UNIverse
Premium, two other big guns
were brought to the table: the
Goldfinger Statement and the
Lyra Olympos. Favorites that I
am well familiar with, all three
were mounted on the same turn
-
table with the same phonostage
to keep the playing field level.
Spinning “Dog Days Are
Over” from Florence and the
Machine’s LUNGS album, the
UNIverse Premium renders
the most minute details on the
plucking of harp strings in the
beginning of the track with ease.
The ambience gives the impression that Florence is performing
in a church setting reminiscent
of the Cowboy Junkies’ Trinity
Sessions. Switching to the Gold
-
finger Statement, the venue be
-
comes more like a jazz lounge,
with less hall ambience and airiness, but at the same time the
strings are plucked with a more
commanding sense of weight
and control. The Lyra Olympos
offers the least amount of ambience and top-end extension,
but it is rendered with a greater
sense of realism, as if a thin veil
has been lifted from the picture.
Florence Welch’s voice is
the most polite, carrying a more
feminine tone on the UNIverse
Premium, while the other two
cartridges project more assertiveness to her voice, with the
whole presentation via the ZYX
darker and weightier. Volume
also appears to be higher on
the other two cartridges versus
the Universe Premium despite
the fact that it has been care
-
fully matched with a decibel
meter. Soundstage is the most
forward with the Goldfinger
and the furthest back with the
Universe Premium, but all are
equally deep, wide, and well-layered.
Tough choices!
Further listening
One must be grateful to
Analogphonic of Germany for
re-releasing the next recording,
because the original Deutsch
Grammaphone album is fetching over a thousand dollars on
eBay. With Enrico Mainardi’s
Violoncello album featuring
Schumann, Gluck, Schubert
and Chopin (DGG LPEM
19054), the UNIverse Premium
displays the lightest touch on
the bow as the strings glide
across Mainardi’s cello. The accompanying piano feels lighter,
but with more finesse and
agility. The Goldfinger and the
Olympos feel slightly weightier
with a bit higher contrast, making the piano stand out more,
where the reverse is true with
the ZYX, as the cello stands
out more than the piano. It also
renders the highest amount of
low level information embedded
in the tracks, allowing the listener to decipher every minute
detail down to the nuances of
background noise or imperfections of the track. These same
qualities are displayed in Arthur
Grmiaux’s To My Friends, BestLoved
Encores album, with the
Goldfinger and Olympos projecting more weight on the violin
bow, and heavier strokes on the
piano. The Universe Premium
offers a lighter presentation,
more clarity and faster transient
response on the violin strings,
as well as the fragmentation of
the tone emanating from tone
with each strike of the velvet
hammer on the wires of the
piano.
When each of these cartridges is played individually,
one would be hard pressed
to find fault with any of them.
They differ only in sonic characters, and not in strength or
weakness over one another.
Although the UNIverse Premium
may be the most reserved and
polite sounding of the three, it
is only polite on a relative basis.
Do not for a second mistake the
UNIverse Premium to be bland
sounding or lacking in dynamic
contrast.
This is best demonstrated on the
newly released Mad Max: Fury Road
soundtrack (which if you haven’t already owned, buy it quickly on Amazon before the limited run is gone).
Think Metallica’s Master of Puppets,
add onto it Hans Zimmer’s Superman
soundtrack, and perhaps a bit of Dvorak’s From The New World mixed all
together, and the result will resemble
Junkie XL’s intense and gripping show
of force. This is one of only a handful
of albums which I’m reluctant to play
with a lesser cartridge, which will render it into a two-hour ordeal of trashy,
chest-pounding aggressive noise. Not
so with the UNIverse Premium, the
composition becomes a carefully orchestrated show of elegant dynamism.
Even with the volume blasting in excess of 100 decibels, every instrument
which would otherwise be jammed
together can be identified and discernible in the complex acoustic space.
The Universe Premium does what few
cartridges can: it maintains control in
the most complex of passages without
the slightest hint of congestion, losing
focus or distorting the acoustic image.
No matter how loud and ferocious
the performance becomes, the sound
coming out of the UNIverse Premium
is never aggressive, hard, or abrasive,
making it my favorite cartridge for this
dynamically charged and yet difficult
recording.
As with ZYX’s predecessors,
the Universe line of cartridges easily
retains the title of one of the most
detailed cartridges, with the best
top end extension going. The added
dynamic contrast, low-level detail and
low-end extension of the UNIverse
Premium, vaults the ZYX name into
a space previously occupied only by
the world’s handful of the very best
cartridges. The ZYX UNIverse Premium
has achieved tonal perfection, with no
identifiable weakness whatsoever.
At the very top level of the premium
cartridge podium, there resides few
competitors. If budget is not an issue,
then the buying decision can be a
relatively easy one because there are
simply very few alternatives. If you want
to own the very best, perhaps it is time
to add the ZYX UNIverse Premium to
your arsenal.
Mehran at Sora sound once explained to me why there were few reviews of the Universe premium. Unfortunately I forget what he said! But point is, it wasn't for lack of sales or interest. And there IS a review of the Zyx Universe premium in Tone Audio by Richard Mak. He liked it, a lot. I can't find a link but it's out there. What gets 'long in the tooth' on Sora's web site btw is the listing of used products available. Best to call. One other thing to consider: as I understand it Zyx is essentially Mr. Nakatsuka, so he may have all the business he needs.
@lewm I couldn't agree more about carbon fiber in audio sounding overdamped. I've had more experience with it in musical instruments, where I find the same thing.
Yes, Don. Why do you say that? ZYX is extremely popular outside of the US, particularly in Asia, especially in Japan. If I would fault them it would be to say that they have far too many models with too many variations on the same theme, such that choosing among ZYX cartridges becomes a bit bewildering. Could be a turn-off for some buyers. It's particularly weird that the Universe line can only be purchased in the US, or at least it cannot be purchased in Tokyo. (I know this; I tried. A reputable high end dealer in Akihibara, who once sold me my Koetsu Urushi, did not even know there was a "Universe" line. This was last October, in the presence of my son to act as interpreter.) Whereas every other ZYX variant is also available in Tokyo, including I think the Ultimate series with the carbon fiber cantilever.
Which brings us to the CF cantilever. I don't see how it could sound "just like" the boron cantilever. Historically, I have not liked the interaction of CF with audio reproduction. It often to my ears sounds like CF parts overdamp the system; the sound seems a bit muffled, even. Whereas the typical ZYX cartridge is anything but overdamped.
I have a ZYX UNIverse, the original model with 0.24mV output and copper coils; I think it's absolutely a great cartridge, perhaps my favorite. This makes me lust a bit for the UNI II, but I remain a skeptic as regards the models with CF cantilevers.
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