It may not be 'system synergy' at all. It is more likely just OP's listening preferences.
Your experiences with system synergy
Hi All -
Over the weekend, I had the opportunity to demo a top of the line tube amp in my system. This is a summit piece that many audiophiles would consider and end game piece. I was ready to open my wallet and spend a big chunk of money to upgrade my system.
Upon arrival at my home, I set this tube amp and sat back to experience the magic. To my surprise, the amp sounded good, but it did not best my far less expensive current tube amp. I played with speaker placement and demoed lots of different styles of music to find the magic.
Eventually, I plugged my own amp in, the one I was expecting to replace, and there was an immediate sense of rightness. It was if I’d introduced a new dancing partner to my current system and they just could not match rhythms on the dance floor. Now, to be clear, my current system has great components. I don’t think there is a weak link in the system. Thus, I thought the end game amp would be revelatory and transformational, but it wasn’t.
It made me realize the profound importance of system synergy.
I’m wondering if others have had this moment or epiphany when introducing a vaunted and desirable component into their system just be sort of utterly disappointed?
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Great post! My own system save for the dac is vintage from 1978 and 1988, payed 700 bucks, and will shame many system listed on virtual system page... I am pretty sure no headphone can sound as my K340 optimized at any price... Audio industry is run by profit not mainly by audio ideals...No company will design an hybrid as the K340 today... I asked to one big company of headphone and they tell me : too difficult, too complex too costly and they even tried... 😊 I could if i wanted to upgrade my two other pieces component, so good they are, but not this one headphone... Then i concluded that some vintage piece rival anything today... At least the K340... I make incense offerings prayers at each listening sessions for Dr. Gorike the acoustician physicist founder of AKG and designer of this K340... By the way if you buy one and dont like it, dont be surprized, i did not fall in love without 6 modifications because it is very difficult to drive it well...it is a marvel but not for beginners who buy, plug and play... it takes me 6 months to figure it out... but i will die with it...
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btw I was in a friend's house high up in the mountains a few weeks ago and noticed his system, the first time, it was placed so obscurely. It consists of all 30-40-50 year old components. He couldn't get more than $1000 for it on any marketplace, mostly because it was all dinged up, worn, blemished and wasn't much to look at. I asked him to turn it on, he opened a cabinet with 100s of records and told me to pick one. It sounded incredible. I guess it must have been the synergy, the room, the decades of experience of fine tuning things (he is a musician). It was significantly better than a lot of 10-20-30K systems I have heard. |
@bluethinker btw I would still love to see your room pic with the mid-century modern furniture matching the Qln Three speakers :) (that was an audiophile way of ordering things - furniture to speaker - I am possessed!) |
Synergy is very central fact... But also the law of diminushing returns which is not always understood well...Some say that this law which is not a law but a complex set of relations is purely subjective but it is not so simplistic...
Subjective hearing abilities and history and personal knowledge S----------------------> ( / T / ) <------------------O Objective gear refinement design levels
in this space ( ) is the diminushing returns VARYING and VARIABLE zone... This / / indicate a Treshold of optimal satisfaction between our subjective ability and biases and personal knowledge and our objective gear potentials levels ...
This zone which is not a point vary as a non linear relation between gear design technological improvement and our ability to insert it in our system objectively in a synergetical way and with our own subjective acquired biases and our ability to embed the audio system in a rightful way...
Prices tag of the gear design quality is not at all the main factor here... Because of other subjective biases factors at play and because of the underestimated acoustic objective factors mechanical factors and electrical embeddings factors ...
This is why the synergy between relatively low cost piece of gear, synergetically well matched , with basic acoustic knowledge and specific tailor made optimization of the gear , in the mechanical , electrical and acoustical embeddings could be enough to reach the threshold of the optimal sound quality for us at very low cost... Most people dont even believe it... Save for synergy between components, an underestimated factor is our luck and ability in spotting the right component in the price/S.Q. scale ratio... In my case it was two vintage low cost TOP components... Without these two components my satisfaction would have been very problematic and in fact impossible at the price level of my actual system...Some vintage components are difficult to replace for the same quality at the same cost... My headphone are nearly irreplaceable at their S. Q. /cost level for example... When we are at the optimal satisfaction treshold , which is a complex result of many objective and subjective factors , we feel it as the lost of upgrade urgency and the complete shift on music because each second the sound is able to translate it in a tactile ectasy... Before reaching this optimum threshold most people throw money in the easy direction : price tag of new improved technology , costly if they can...it is more easy to buy than to learn acoustic or to materially optimize the mechanical (vibrations/resonance) , electrical ( low noise floor level) and acoustical embeddings dimensions... Even me as a human i can dream about the ZOTL Berning amplifier for example even if my Sansui alpha completely satisfy me now... And even me happy and in ectasy each evening , i can dream for an upgrade , a real one The BACCH filters of Dr, Choueri because i study it a lot, but my system will go from 700 bucks to 15,000 bucks... But believe it or not, it is not necessary and i dont feel any frustration , because i know what i have already and why and how i did it ; i know also what it would be... Studying and experimenting is key... My luck was i did not have the money to buy what i wanted to buy.... I must did otherwise and learn a lot to compensate for the lack of money ... 😊 |
Thanks for clarifying. Sounds like it's just not for you....not at all uncommon with this hobby. We like what we like....no apologies! |
To bluethinker66 - Thanks for asking about my system and the elements of synergy. Current system: Cambridge Audio CXA 81 integrated, Revel Concerta 2 M-16's and a Velodyne SPL-1000 sub. Various vintage and used source equipment. Previously mentioned system: Arcam FMJ 19 integrated, Paradigm Titan Monitors V.6 and the same Velodyne sub. |
@knotscott - I posted my system in the thread. And my friend @grislybutter was kind enough to post it as well. |
@motown-l - On topic, would you mind sharing your speakers and amps? I'm curious where others have found a great matching... and which dance partner is a little bit more forward and... a little more laid back. ;-) |
@tablejockey - That's a practical way to think about it. I'd never demoed the tube amp (Audio Hungary) before I picked it up. It was COVID, so visiting some hi-fi shops was a bit impractical then... But yes, it was a reminder that sometimes the subtleties of these components can often be minor.
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@vonhelmholtz - Yes, exactly. It's a larger room with higher ceilings. I've been going to many nice hi-fi shops and after leaving I've thought "I guess my system does really sound good" because I've left disappointed in what I heard just demoed. |
I don't have experience in high end valve equipment, but I find there is a very clear element of synergy, even in my entry-level, solid state experience. All equipment in the audio chain have inherent "voicing". My experience is that the amp and speakers are the most critical elements, but source equipment voicing also vary considerably. My amp has what I call a "punchy" presentation with slightly extended high frequency output. The speakers I have are somewhat inefficient and have a more "relaxed" presentation. Together, the amp and speakers seem to have a complementary sense of sonics. My previous set up was the opposite with forward sounding speakers and a more relaxed voicing to the amp. They also played well together. |
It’d be useful for you to post more details about your system and the new amp. There are a lot of variables in play. I would not write off the new amp without a good long warm up, and ample time for the tubes to burn in (if not done during manufacturering). I’d also ask the manufacturer for input, and/or what cables theyy suggest with the amp....the synergy issue could be that simple. Give it a chance before dismissing it.
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It is great when you plunk down a new piece of equipment and the difference is instantly obvious and huge. That happens when one is working up to the higher echelons of equipment. But once you are there things can be different. First, as pointed out by @audphile1, it is way too soon to make a judgement. It is too soon even if the amp was broken in. I would make sure to get at least 20 hours or hopefully more on it in your system. (If it is new… then you really will needs hundreds). Second, you want to spend at least a couple weeks before swapping back… listening to the music not trying to listen to the amp. The music you listen to over time will reveal differences. The analytical thinking is only good for glaring differences in some very obvious parameters unless you are really experienced in doing it (like you are a dealer who swaps stuff for a living). You are likely to hear the differences when you swap back to your old amp after a good long exposure to listening to music.
Having said all that. Yes, there is such a thing as synergy. It was not by accident I finally converged on my all Audio Research system (under my ID). In this case, dropping the DAC and amp in were earth shatteringly obvious. But I have compared very high end DACs and while the differences seemed miniscule and required lots of exposure to reveal, once revealed there was no question they had a very profound effect on my system.
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Not too surprising. Yes, that nebulous / nefarious concept of "synergy" is crucial. Everything matters for a good amp match, not just speakers: preamps, source, volume level, music selection, and YOU. Psychology is a factor too. If you’re expecting miracles from a new amp (or whatever), that’s more often a setup for disappointment. On the flip side, I’ve been loaned "next level" amps by my dealer at times when I was already "perfectly happy" with my system. No obligation or risk on my end. I didn’t expect anything, other than a bit of fun experiencing the new amps followed by their return. Twice now that has left me blown away by the new amps, and scrambling to make their purchase. Haha. Preamps have proven a more difficult upgrade for me. They don’t overtly change sound as much as power amps, but somehow synergy is even more key in this slot. A few years ago I purchased my VAC Master preamp, and it didn’t totally blow me away until it was later matched to the VAC Master 300 monoblock amps. Fortunately I kept it until then, because I had been flirting with selling it and just sticking to the Ref 6. It was really weird, in some ways the ARC Ref 6 seemed a better preamp match for my VAC 200iQ amps. |
from previous posts: Innuous Zenith, Merason DAC1, Linear Tube Audio Microzotl preamp, Audio Hungary/Qualiton 100 watt tube power amp, and QLN Prestige Three speakers or who knows what by now, OP seems to be upgrading these days :)
On the subject, unfortunately I don't have this problem. Maybe, with my upgrade cycle, in 2028.
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Just because a pre is expensive and even highly regarded obviously doesn’t make it automatically better for you. Perhaps you just chose a very good pre with the wrong sound-characteristic profile for your system and tastes. Maybe do some more research on other top preamps that may better provide what you’re looking for and give it another go. Sure would help make this more useful, informative, and interesting if you’d just share the equipment in your system, and you may even get some helpful suggestions to ponder rather than just going it alone especially if you also share what improvements you’d like to achieve with an “end game” pre. It’s kinda the whole point of the Forum here. |
Your expectation that the new amp would be revelatory and transformational is unrealistic. If you have a high quality, well matched system, then that just doesn't happen. At a certain point the differences between components is subtle and user preferences become just as important as the ultimate sound quality. |
@bluethinker I would allow 24hrs for the amp to settle if it’s used with over 200hrs on it. If it’s new then give it around 200hrs. Don’t jump to conclusions too soon and don’t do a quick A/B comparison. Get used to it for few days then switch back. |
"I plugged my own amp in, the one I was expecting to replace, and there was an immediate sense of rightness" Not surprising. Doesn't that suggest your existing amp has a baseline build that will create a desired sound? You just didn't hear "the one" that catches your ear and wallet. A tube amp is a tube amp. The "better"(the brands that are considered SOTA) have build enhancements that elevate the senses more. You pay extra for that-that's how it works. |