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Something I like?..more like high tech innovations found in these products not common in most separates such as Soundengine technology..Linear voltage regulation..and algorithm formulas not found in other SACD/CD players..
Hmmmmm...credibility?..I think I'll just sit back and have
a slice of Devil's food cake.... |
It's obvious nobody takes this clown seriously.
Don't respond to his senseless posts; he'll soon tire of talking to himself.
Hopefully
:-) |
The fastest way to destroy any and all credibility is to proclaim something you like to be the best. In your defense, you do say that this $42K system COMPETES with $200K systems. However, you think this is the ONLY $42K system that can, thus destroying your credibility. |
Yes Charles a cap like the CAST lets the component be all it can be. I also know from experience with top end gear that the CAST caps and other top end parts make a huge improvement.
Atmasphere also uses the pricy Vcap CU caps in his amps and they are nice. I do think the CAST caps are even better however. Both can and do bring sonic improvements vs a good $30 cap from MIT or REL and the like. |
Atmasphere,
I understand your point, the circuit is the root or foundation for the sound quality. Is it fair to say that superior quality capacitors will allow more of the intrinsic character of the circuit to be appreciated(less signal degradation). And perhaps poorer quality caps veil or hinder that inert character/signal? I know from personal experience there is a definite capacitor pecking order in terms their positive(or negative)effect of the sound.
Regards, |
Atmasphere is right. But combine a great circuit or speaker design with Duelund CAST caps and your in music heaven. |
Kudos to Ralph for telling like it is. People are welcome to evaluate components (and their parts) however they wish. In the end though, a component is only as good as the circuit design. |
The circuit should work the same regardless of the cap. Once it works, then the choice of cap is not for 'voicing', which is a tonality issue, but which one can bring out more detail (which, BTW, it should do in any circuit).
IOW, any given cap should have the same audible qualities regardless of the circuit. So they should not be playing any serious role in the voicing- that is to say if we install cap X, we then have to make changes y to compensate. Follow me? If not, perhaps a definition of 'voicing' is in order!
You should be able to use any good quality cap and get excellent results. Its important to understand that the circuit is the foundation of the preamp or amp, not the caps and resistors. |
The reason you hear those differences is often nothing to do with voicing, but rather distortion Interesting! The difference one hears between a Duelund and Mundorf cap is due to distortion? So in a PERFECT design, should a Duelund and Mundorf cap sound the same? I've always assume any designer, whether competent or incompetent, will use (voice) whatever parts sound best to him. |
You were saying?... You will note that I used the term 'competent', as in: no competent designer will voice a preamp or amp. The reason you hear those differences is often nothing to do with voicing, but rather distortion. Our ears hear distortion as tonality, which is why two preamps can measure absolutely flat on the bench, but one will sound bright (due to trace amounts of odd ordered harmonic distortion) and one will not (lacks the odd ordered harmonic distortion). If the designer engages in 'voicing' they immediately introduce additional distortions or colorations that will limit the usability of the preamp! Instead they go for flat frequency response. ';Voicing' is poor engineering practice in amps and preamps (BTW with speakers this is a different matter). So the key word here is 'competent'; any designer telling you they voice their preamp is also telling you they have no idea what they are doing. Sorry, just stating a simple fact. If a designer has to engage in such practice it is because there is an inherent flaw in their design- instead of a bandaid approach, they simply need to find the flaw and correct it. |
Audiozen,
You have figured it all out,congratulations. |
"But "voicing" is not something that a competent designer of amps and preamps would engage in." What a load of crap. Do you think for one minute that if an amp and Preamp in a audio components company sound room sounds warm, bright, fast or slow its by accident it sounds that way? Where is your brain. Its exactly how they want it to sound. Take ten different top quality solid state Preamps and run them through the same amp and speakers and the sonic character will sound different from each Preamp. Too forward, laid back, too warm, too bright, very wide of narrow sound stage. All high end companies have sound rooms to tweak and test their components over and over until its "voiced" to the exact sonic character they want to achieve. I first learned about voicing amps and Preamps from Chris Johnson, founder and designer of Sonic Frontiers. I had a long conversation with Chris back in the mid-nineties and he mentioned that he had in his company sound room the top tube Preamps from other companies and he would tweak and voice his Preamps, and he used the term "voice", to have a similar sonic character to his top competitors. You were saying?... |
At first I thought someone had been let out of the asylum,
then I thought this post was hilarious,
now it's become tiresome...now where are those pills |
However, all of this products are voiced subjectively to have a different sonic character from one brand to the other. I think we can be quite certain that this is incorrect. I doubt that any of these preamps are 'voiced'. I don't know how things like that get started, but 'voicing' is not something that a competent designer of amps and preamps would engage in. Rather, they would just go for the best performance they can wring out of the circuit. At best what we have here is another competent transistor design. Best? Not by a long shot. Good? Sure. Excellent. Maybe... but not best. No way. |
It is very difficult to learn anything, when the main focus is based on already knowing everything. |
Charles some people never get it. This guy been a phile for years. |
Hifitime,
Well said, there`s no better teacher than the experience of actually listening.He`s heard the Hegel and likes it,good. But relying on measurements is near worthless.
Regards, |
Again, all the best designs all have S/N ratio's above 125 db's.
08-13-12: Audiozen Every time I see a statement like this, the first thing that comes to mind is, "A fool and his money are soon parted." I used to be a spec person. Then I discovered amps that make music, and make it sound real. Specs alone doesn't make the component sound like music. It's the overall design. Using specs alone, left me with too much sterile, and lifeless sounding gear. |
There is just a handful of Preamps on the market that have zero feedback, feed forward designs which vary from one company to another. Companies such as Luxman, Accuphase, Soulutions, FM Acoustics to name a few as well as others.
However, all of this products are voiced subjectively to have a different sonic character from one brand to the other. Some are very fast, slow, bright, warm, hard, smooth, laid back or very forward that only work well in large rooms. Again, all the best designs all have S/N ratio's above 125 db's. Having the S/N ratio much higher also reduces distortion even further since there is lower noise in the boards which also reduces vibration. It was more relevant years ago that very expensive Preamps costing $15K and above produced major sonic differences but in recent years the science of audio engineering has advanced to such a level it is now possible, given the talent of a good modern day audio engineer, to design a Preamp in the $6K to $10K range that will equal the performance of Preamps in the $20K to $50K range. This is where Bent Holter comes in from Hegel. He is a true prodigy retaining a degree in micro electronics with an emphasis on transistor engineering. He has taken a whole new approach on feed forward technology that has further advanced the technique on the same scale as FM Acoustics at a fraction of the cost. The Hegel P-30 Preamp is the best Preamp in the world in its price range and will easily equal other Preamps in performance at much higher prices.
The P-30 is warm, lush, relaxing, very, very organic, with full midrange bloom and full, tight deep bass that is outstanding and the best detail, resolution and 3-D echo decay that one could ever hope for. It does not sound solid state. Its organic sound is like the very best blending of tube and solid state. No bullshit. Simply a damn good design. If your thinking about spending $10K or a lot more on a Preamp, put the brakes on and save your money and buy a world class Preamp for $7500.00. Once you hear the P-30 you will not believe the level of performance you get for the price. |
Anyone else think that the second coming of the Almighty has already occurred, cause no one else seems to know a thing |
If it aint got no tubes, it aint got no swing. I'm with Atmasphere on this one, there are other issues to consider with most gear, both tube and solid state, speed and timing, no matter what the price.
May/June 2012 TAS - Marantz 7C - "blessed with the resolution and transparency of great contemporary solid state amplifiers and preamps, such as the Technical Brain TBP-Zero .. or the Soulution 700." Thats a standard Marantz 7 they are referring to, which has much room for improvement.
I have heard nothing yet that does speed/timing as my modded Marantz 7, and guess what - the phono will amplify LOMC's of 0.25mv up without screwing the music up. Perhaps I should send it to TAS to hear something even more resolving than the Soulution despite the basic design being over 60 years old. |
Just me, but IMO they sound bright. |
Atmasphere,
If these ultra exspensive preamps you`re referring(Audiozen`s list) to don`t sound "natural" then what do they sound like? What advantages do they provide for their high cost?I`m puzzled.
Regards, |
Audiozen, I can guarantee that the noise floor is not going to define the sound quality of any preamp, once it has gained acceptable levels. But excessive low noise floors do make me suspicious. A more important quality might be how the equipment reacts to a signal rather than the lack of one.
BTW, I could not listen to any of the preamps you mentioned- I like music to sound natural, for the equipment to not draw attention to itself, which is a failing of most of the brands you've mentioned so far. |
Invenio 78..if you want a Pre-amp that will hold its own against any Pre-amp at $10K or below, I would highly recommend the Wyred4Sound STP-SE Pre-amp for $2K. Its the best product they make. Don't be deceived by its bland appearance. The board work, massive power supply and lay out is a work of art for the price. The best Pre-amp in the country under $5K but will perform equally to more expensive Pre-amps. Pick one up used for $1500. You won't be disappointed. |
Sarcher30..having been a hard core Audiophile since the mid 70's and a former member of my State's Audio Society..I have reached the point of burn out of listening and evaluating gear for years around the country and at shows and retail stores coast to coast. There are many high priced, high end components that are a rip off that sound like sh*t and other high end products that are true state of the art that are 100% faithful to revealing the exact reproduction of the music as the artist and recording engineer intended. I don't give a crap what the brand is, or what Robert Harley or John Atkinson endorse, I focus on the word of mouth reputation of the brand and listen, which is much more relevant than the mags, and the Hegel P-30 regardless of its price, is about as musical as you could ever want or desire. |
Fair enough. You heard it and you liked it. Directly compared to what? In a system that you are familiar with? I am just trying to understand how you came to your conclusion. More information gives your comments more substance. |
If you have read my thread during the past two weeks I made it clear that I have heard it. It floored me. Over the years I had Pre-amps from Coda, BAT, Counterpoint, Musical Fidelity, Pass Labs, Carver and other brands. The Hegel is the best I've heard ever in its price range and equals Preamps I have listened to in the $20K to $30K price range. Bent Holter, the prodigy designer of this piece, has a degree in Micro Electronics with the emphasis on transistor engineering. The micro dynamics and imaging is remarkable. The soundstage is first row, yet it has an organic character that is relaxed, warm and lush with a deep 3D midrange. It sounds more like a tube Preamp with the slam of solid state. The one spec that is very relevant in Preamps is the S/N ratio. All the top Preamps, again, have a S/N of well over 125db's. Less noise equals lower distortion which results in less interference to the music signal and gets you closer to studio quality sound. |
Audiozen,
You seem to be quite enamored with specifications. Some measurements are certainly meaningful but impressive S/N ratio is no predictor of superior sound(same with very low THD values). Just listen and decide.The preamps you cite are very exspensive and have stellar specs but for sure won`t sound 'best' to every listener.I hope the Hegel makes you happy.Just my own experience but some components that measure at best rather average have stunning natural realism and are very convincing and involving.Don`t get to caught up with numbers.
Regards, |
I have not heard the Hegel P-30 myself. That said having a S/N ratio north of 125 in itself does not mean I will enjoy its sound. It also does not mean that it will not be lacking in dynamics or some other parameter.
Have you listened to it yourself and compared it with the other preamps you have listed? If not it seems reckless to proclaim it their equal just based on one spec. |
I wish I had the problem of choosing an over $10K preamp! :) For now I have to save my pennies! |
There is absolutely a group of Preamps globally that are recognized as the best due to their designs and their ability to have extremely low noise and distortion levels that result in superior musical performance. As I already indicated, all these top Preamps have S/N ratio's over 125 db's. Companies such as Boulder, FM Acoustics, Solutions, and Sim Audio and Luxman have these numbers in common. Since these products are beyond reach for most due to their very high prices, then we have to settle for products we can afford that still perform well, but not on the same level as the top units that cost between $25K and over $100K such as the FM Acoustics 268. For Hegel to design an active Preamp using a feedforward design with a S/N of 132db's is a very rare achievement. You will not find an active Preamp anywhere with a S/N of 132dbs at $15K or below which is why the Hegel P-30 performs like a Tier 1 Preamp. |
So you don't own this stuff yet but are claiming it's the worlds best. There is no best. There is only what is best for you.
I hope all your choices work well together and make you happy. IMO you can't just throw together a system with random pieces and expect perfection. Of course you have to start somewhere but it usually takes time to find all the right parts and pieces to fit your room and taste. The best systems out there are systems that have evolved over many years. |
Still not convinced its the world's best- in shoot outs, people have preferred our preamp hands down, no comparison!
If it was the best that would not be happening, right? |
Peterayer..make no bones about it..I will be purchasing the Hegel P-30 in several weeks. As I have already indicated..the Pre-amp uses their Soundengine feed forward technology which is why it has the performance level of FM Acoustics. Both Solutions and FM Acoustics use a feed forward design which is why they sound so darn good, but you will get the same performance from the Hegel at a fraction of the price. However, I more than likely will purchase the Cary 306 Pro SACD player since the $17K price for the PBD MPS-5 is a little to high for me and I can live with the Cary at $8K and get a discount through my network. |
What happened to the world's best pre amp? |
there has been over eleven firmware upgrades to the player including last summer Wow. |
Lula..The information I got recently is straight from the horses mouth, from Jonathan Tinn who is Andreas Kochs' partner and who runs Playback Designs. During the past three years there has been over eleven firmware upgrades to the player including last summer. These firmware upgrades apply to both DSD for Hi-rez files and PCM for CD playback. The firmware that applies to PCM, upgrades the algorithm's to further improve Red Book and SACD playback. |
Audiozen, regarding the MPS-5....there was a firmware upgrade in the summer of 2010. I am not aware of any upgrade since, regarding playing CDs or SACDs via the non-computer method. Aren't the upgrades you are referring to for USB, Hi-rez files, etc.? |
Michael Fremer was also the one that would bring a CDR into our room to play, a CDR made off of a turntable. He was claiming that it sounded better than most analog, a claim he could not substantiate in our room, to say the least. |
For those who have listened to the Playback Designs MPS-5 Player, it did a very poor job on Red Book prior to the summer of 2011 when the player had a major firmware upgrade
for Red Book last summer. The firmware upgrade is downloadable from the internet. My experience with the player was mostly with SACD's. The performance and sound quality from SACD is phenomenal. Not thin or cold, but rich, warm, organic, full and scary dynamic's. With the firmware upgrade Red Book sounds great. SACD becoming a dead thing ? No way..the new SACD technology known as SHM-SACD has taken the SACD format to a whole new level and Acoustic Sounds in Kansas is selling these discs like crazy..they sell for $60.00 a disc..but when you listen you won't hesitate that they are worth every penny.
Michael Fremer's review in the February 2010 issue of Stereophile
was prior to the firmware upgrade and his gripe was with Red Book. Not SACD. " As an SACD player, the MPS-5 is, or is very close to the best I've heard " Michael Fremer |
the most organic and analog sounding SACD player, the Accuphase DP-700, damn pricey and hard to find used. We ran one of these in our room at CES for a few years. It was handily beaten by the Stahltek playing the same cuts on Redbook. I have heard Sony master tapes of the SACD process sound excellent, but have yet to hear an actual player of SACDs that brought home the bacon. Its no surprise to me that SACD has become a dead thing. |
Audiozen,
I `m that other pair of ears jwm referred to above along with Rfogel. Jeff 'very' patiently put the PD MPS-5 though a long and careful burn in and audition period. He was`nt sure of the total hours when he purchase it used.
While I liked the PD a 'bit' more than jeff I agree with his and Rfogel`s overall impressions. It is out performed IMO by the Modwright modified player(just more natural, has better tonality and is more engaging i.e. less mechanical in his system). You may hear things differently(understandable). If it works for you then all is fine.
Regards, |
Audiozen I wasn't aware of how the PD sounded until I had it. I don't like any components that are lean. I like clear mids, but they have to be organic sounding like in live music. I am not looking for components that go the other way which is what you just mentioned. |
Jwm..I'm surprised you went for the PD MPS-5 if your aware of its sonic character since your into tube gear.The warmest CD or SACD player's on the market are the Rega models, the Isis, Apollo or Saturn.
The Cary 306 Pro, the Marantz Reference SA-7S1 which has just been discontinued, and the most organic and analog sounding SACD player, the Accuphase DP-700, damn pricey and hard to find used. |
Audiozen my system tends to be on the warmer side and the PD was still lean, Lean, Lean. I can just imagine the sound of it in a Thiel, Magico system. Michael Fremer of Stereophile who likes very detailed sound got rid of the PD and now uses the Sim Audio cd player from Canada. He also said the PD is on the leaner side. |
Agreed syntax.
I always look forward to the tinman's latest audio breakthrough followed by promotion from mickey the shill who purchased at dealer cost. |
Rfogel8 has written some very serious facts about our Audiophile world
today....
Personally I miss a little bit the influence from Seattle area...you
know ----> some "game changer" comments about this Payback :-) Design...
Anyway, we passed Friday and I bought Chips & Coke ... |
Audiozen, sorry to burst your bubble but JWM did own the Playback Design for a few months and I heard it on numerous occasions. He's exactly right; not only was it lean and quite two dimensional, it also sounded rather closed in and dry.
You on the other hand base your opinion on two brief auditions in someone else's system and a couple reviews by nimrods who rarely give bad reviews for fear of losing advertising dollars in their rags.
JWM owns VAC amps and preamp plus a 3-box Aestetix phono stage. The sound is quite exceptional; that is, as long as you don't insert the Playback Design.
Finally, your initial post was quite rediculous and really ended up making you look like a phool instead of a phile. Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk! |
