World's best Pre-amp for $10K and above?


Looking for the HOLY GRAIL in Audio? Here it is. I'm in my early sixties and retiring to my final system, which I was going to purchase during the past twelve months and decided to put on the brakes, and investigate whats out there as the most advanced engineered high end audio products for the money in the market place. As far as I'm concerned, the two top engineers in the world for the best Amp and Preamp at low prices are Bent Holter with Hegel Audio in Norway and Roger Sanders with Sanders Sound in Colorado. Why? The Hegel P-30 Pre-amp is a game changer, and will easily compete with Pre-amps at $30K and above. The FM Acoustics 268 Preamp that retails for $107K, uses a technology thats called "feedforward" instead of feedback.
Amps and Pre-amps since the early 80's have all used either global feedback, zero feedback or local feedback to filter out noise and lower distortion by sending and filtering the feedback current to filter capacitors or or an extra filter transformer. A small amount of voltage feedback occurs at the output stage in amps and preamps which goes back into the parts and boards causing noise and distortion which smears the quality of the music.The best Preamps in the world all have S/N noise ratios at 125 db's or above. The Hegel P-30 Preamp uses the same feedforward technology as FM Acoustics but is a more current design that Bent Holter calls "Sound Engine" patented technology that eliminates feedback which is why the P-30 Preamp has a S/N ratio of 132 db's, which has never been accomplished in high end audio with a Preamp costing $10K or below. The same applies to Roger Sanders Magtech amplifier which uses a patented linear voltage regulator that controls and regulates voltage with no excess voltage going back into the amp causing heat and distortion problems. The amp puts out 900 watts into 4ohms. Krell makes a pair of mono blocs that also use a similar voltage regulator. The amps are $100K a pair. HERES THE PERFECT SOLID STATE SYSTEM. A Hegel P-30 Preamp. A Sanders Magtech amp, A pair of Aerial Acoustics 7T speakers. The worlds finest SACD player, the Playback Designs MPS-5, designed by Andreas Koch, who invented SACD technology when he worked for Sony. He built the worlds first outboard DAC in 1982 and is legend in digital engineering. The MPS-5 is the most analog sounding player on the market which costs $17K. The Hegel P-30 is only $7500.00 and the Magtech amp is only $5K. The Aerials are $10K. Buy the solid core cables from Morrow Audio. They are low capacitance cables which matches up perfectly with these components. This combination sounds like the very best tube and solid state gear on the market. The whole system will cost about $42K but will sound as good as any system costing $200K. All of these products are game changers. If you want better looking cabinets and faceplates, then blow your money, but you will not get better performance for what this system has to offer. It is the HOLY GRAIL you are searching for and there is no better combination for the total cost of the system.
audiozen

Showing 12 responses by grannyring

Atmasphere is right. But combine a great circuit or speaker design with Duelund CAST caps and your in music heaven.
Yes Charles a cap like the CAST lets the component be all it can be. I also know from experience with top end gear that the CAST caps and other top end parts make a huge improvement.

Atmasphere also uses the pricy Vcap CU caps in his amps and they are nice. I do think the CAST caps are even better however. Both can and do bring sonic improvements vs a good $30 cap from MIT or REL and the like.
I find the topic of parts quality in amps very interesting. There is a well known amp builder in Minnesota that blew me away after I spoke with him. I was interested In buying one of his hybrid amps that is pretty well reviewed. Small company and pretty well respected. Van Alstine. I was ready to buy one, but did not after our conversation. He is a nice guy and builds nice products. When I asked him about the caps he used he quickly and and somewhat defensively started on a long attack against "so called audiophile" caps. He does not listen or should I say purchase based on listening tests, but by specs and adherence to very exacting specs. He is a spec guy.

I know he is very skilled and educated in the area of electronics. I respect him for that. But I know from real and repeated experience that caps do sound different - and some better then others - period. I have replaced many cheap caps in key positions with Mundorf SGO's and Duelund CAST caps and each and every time with Big improvements realized. These caps sounded better In gear that was well designed and highly reviewed.

I simply cannot buy from a builder who stongly feels all well speced caps, resistors, wire etc... sound the same in anything he makes. The builder must listen and make decisions based on listening tests and trial. This should be priority number one! Yes, the cap needs to be off high quality and last etc...

I just cannot understand how a knowledgable builder can dismiss what is so easily discerned through the ears? Perhaps my hearing is wrong and I have convinced myself of something that is not real? Perhaps these caps that measure well sound good enough or close enough to the builder and he does not appreciate the nuances that make Hifi sound more like real music? Nuances that make a big difference to me may be nothing to another. Again, I suppose that is why I did not buy or try his amp.

I would love to take one of his amps and replace several key signal caps with Duelunds and listen. I suppose it's possible his amp would sound no different, but this would be the one and only time such a result transpired based on my experience and others I know.

I understand if the builder must hit a price point and watch costs, but to passionately state that this audiophile boutique cap stuff is all bull is out of bounds to this Aphile.
Amen to you Charles. Simple truth really. In terms of percent improvement, well that depends on the part used. My experience indicates that improvements can be as much as 20 plus percent.

Fun stuff!
Clio09, not sure your post is based on reality in my life experience. I am not obsessed, but certainly illuminated and educated as to the difference certain, not all, parts quality can make. No reason for any open minded builder or Aphile to ever get miffed as you say. Open mind often equals learning.

Frank also thinks wire and power cords make no difference. Opportunity for learning here it also seems. The wire employed makes a difference, never mind just caps. This points seems like a captain obvious statement to those who have experimented and compared with consistent effort.

Not all expensive parts can bring about positive and obvious improvent, but the Duelund line of resistors, caps, inductors are wire is simply a cut above.

Even Frank's amps would benefit, though they sound very good due to his circuit design and passion for building well built gear.
Clio09, it seems to me that other builders can get a bit closed minded on this topic of parts quality in terms of their impact on the music played through their gear. I have owned the RM 200 and thought it was good sounding if perhaps a little solid state like for my tastes. The RM9 was owned by a friend. My friend did replace several key caps to great effect in that amp. That amp certainly realized a HUGE leap forward in sound with the better caps. Yes, the original caps were still operating to full spec etc...Parts do make a difference and bring out the very best possible in any design.

Atmasphere has said it best in his posts above. The design is tantamount, but top tier parts perfect and can complete a great design. Builders should be open to this fact. Yes, wire, connectors, caps, resistors, volume controls etc do make a difference that can be heard. No snake oil here, no obsession on a wrong path. Instead this obsession in parts leads to better sound and learning.

Boutique caps can be very expensive and that is indeed a righteous reason not to use them, but don't get miffed at their use and passon for them. To do so is to stay put and not learn.
Charles and I are on the same page and no other way to achieve the music we want without the pre of our dreams. No buffer, no other combo etc... I have tried does it. I wish it weren't so, but it is up till today.

I remain open minded will will try other "things" in the future.
Amen Clio09.

Jwm - Yes, I am going beyond the thread. I assume this is ok at times:-)
Audiozen, why attack Jwm? My goodness he is a solid Agon member and your comments seem very out of line. Why attack?
The preamp is the heart of a system and in my experience the difference maker in my myriad of systems over the years.

Think of it this way. No reason for separate amps, preamp, dac, conditioners, as they could all be put into one box. We buy separates because they sound better. Each component can be executed in a more fleshed out and complete manner with separates. A sound card volume control stuffed into the same box as the dac or amp simply does not sound as good as a well executed active preamp. Volume control can certainly be handled in a one box integrated fashion, but no way it sounds as good as my tube regulated, tube output, monster power supply, active preamp.

At least not in my systems, to my ears, and in my room :).

Some like the sound of passives or built in volume controls in a dac, and for them great! Others of us would rather not spend the extra money on an active, but cannot live with the "different" sound of these simple attenuators.

So no, the the total dollars spent has nothing to do with it. It's all about the resulting music from the complete system. For me and many others a great preamp is the only or best means to our hunger for great sound/music.