Audiozen,
I `m that other pair of ears jwm referred to above along with Rfogel. Jeff 'very' patiently put the PD MPS-5 though a long and careful burn in and audition period. He was`nt sure of the total hours when he purchase it used.
While I liked the PD a 'bit' more than jeff I agree with his and Rfogel`s overall impressions. It is out performed IMO by the Modwright modified player(just more natural, has better tonality and is more engaging i.e. less mechanical in his system). You may hear things differently(understandable). If it works for you then all is fine.
Regards, |
Audiozen,
You seem to be quite enamored with specifications. Some measurements are certainly meaningful but impressive S/N ratio is no predictor of superior sound(same with very low THD values). Just listen and decide.The preamps you cite are very exspensive and have stellar specs but for sure won`t sound 'best' to every listener.I hope the Hegel makes you happy.Just my own experience but some components that measure at best rather average have stunning natural realism and are very convincing and involving.Don`t get to caught up with numbers.
Regards, |
Atmasphere,
If these ultra exspensive preamps you`re referring(Audiozen`s list) to don`t sound "natural" then what do they sound like? What advantages do they provide for their high cost?I`m puzzled.
Regards, |
Hifitime,
Well said, there`s no better teacher than the experience of actually listening.He`s heard the Hegel and likes it,good. But relying on measurements is near worthless.
Regards, |
Audiozen,
You have figured it all out,congratulations. |
Atmasphere,
I understand your point, the circuit is the root or foundation for the sound quality. Is it fair to say that superior quality capacitors will allow more of the intrinsic character of the circuit to be appreciated(less signal degradation). And perhaps poorer quality caps veil or hinder that inert character/signal? I know from personal experience there is a definite capacitor pecking order in terms their positive(or negative)effect of the sound.
Regards, |
Peterayer,
You make some very good points. Atmasphere may reject the term "voicing" but clearly the desired outcome(sound quality) is subjective and in the end is determined by listening.I find it difficult to except one can absolutely 'know' the sound of any product based exclusively on it`s specifications and not hearing the part/component in question.Engineering ability and competence obviously is important but there is certainly an art component at work as well to complete the final picture.Otherwise we all could simply rely on specs as Audiozen does and be confident of the sound quality.Atmasphere you must 'listen' to your components to verify your expectations ? and if you do listen then there is`nt 'complete' reliance on engineering theory and specifications.
Regards, |
Atmasphere,
Your xample is clear and show how critical the proper cap in the 'right' place/use is.Their influcence is undeniable. You either choose the best cap for the job at hand or as in your case 'direct couple' or use an interstage transformer and just eliminate the capacitor.
Regards, |
Peterayer,
Nice post and very good observations.Atmasphere you may not accept the term "voicing" but I find it hard to believe you or anyone can absolutely be sure of the sound of a part or component based 'exclusively' on measurements and specifications(your Vcap example). It seems listening is required at some point to confirm/verify the expectations. Atmasphere I`ll assume you listen to your finished products or is this a wrong assumption? If measurements and specs are that dependable then Audiozen is right with his reliance on stated figures.Is`nt the building of audio components a mixture of engineering, science and art?
Regards, |
When solid state components tout ultra low distortion numbers are they just referring to 2nd order or low order reduction in general?And perhaps not accounting for the higher odd order that they produce in place of? the high order odd distortion sounds worse than the low even order distortion by far IMO.Musical instruments produce low order even harmonics rather than high odd order harmonics. |
Podeschi,
I`ve read good things about the Hegel preamp and hope you`re happy with it.I would say though that you didn`t hear the VAC SIG MK II at anywhere near its best if you only heard the stock tubes. The VAC is capable of an entirely different level of sound with better tubes installed.Hegel appears to be gathering more attention in this country.It would have been interesting to compare the VAC with better tubes to the Hegel P 30.
Regards, |
Grannyring,
Could be these builders take much pride in their products(experience,time,effort,research etc.) and may feel insulted that someone comes along and says they can improve the sound of their pride and joy components by 'merely' changing out their carefully selected and tested parts.May just be hard for some of them to accept.The fact is that significant improvement is possible with certain upgrades just as you and others have personally discovered.
Regards, |
In the current 6Moons there is a review of the 75,000 dollar Tenor linestage. The designer Michael Broeck has a very interesting discussion concerning negative feedback,odd order distortion,natural sound and 'natural' distortion and the human ear-brain processing of sound.
He attempts to explain why most very low distortion amplifiers often sound very unnatrual and unconvincing musically and why the human ear detects and identifies this as incorrect. Food for thought.
Regards, |
Knghifi,
I said it`s an interesting read and discussion. You`re under no obligation to agree with his perspective.It was suggested for those with "open minds" to other`s ideas and designs.
Regards, |
"Damping factor is mythological"
Atmasphere that may or may not be true(I don`t know) but many amplifier builders sure proudly tout it as a positive attribute.
regards, |
Grannyring,
Many would agree with you.In my former Quicksilver preamp I relaced the standard MIT capacitors with V-cap and SoniPlatinum(coupling caps). The improvement was profound! There`s no other way to describe the change.There are examples of very exspensive audio components that use run of the mill average parts,crossovers(in high price speakers) are notorious for skimping with cheaper parts. |
Jwm and Clio09,
I don`t see where anyone here has downplayed the importance of the circuit and its instrinsic quality. A good circuit is the foundation but its ultimate potential and performance can be hurt or aided by the choice of parts.a good circuit with good parts will out perform the same circuit with inferior parts.
No one is suggesting a high quality part will transform a poor circuit, that is`nt going to happen. The better quality parts should have less degradation to the purity of the signal is the only point.This seems intuitve to me.This is why changing tubes(output and small signal) and cable etc. all have audible effects despite the level of the circuit involved.Capacitors are no different and are likely more significant.
Regards, |
I simply don't accept the "this is the best" declarations from anyone. There are endless variables and circumstances that make these claims hollow. All you can truly determine is that a particular component sounds superb and"personally" may be the best you have encountered.How often do Valin or Harley declare something the best? What makes their opinion any more credible than someone else's opinion? Why don't we just say the Balabo is a very fine sounding linestage along with other top tier competitors and leave it at that. |
If I could configure a system without an active preamp and get the sound I aspire to I'd do that in a heartbeat. Based on considerable listening experiences it hasn't happened. For what I find to be essential sonic attributes for my system an active is irreplaceable. They are capable of reproducing music in a manner that I have not heard approached in their absence.
For those who believe that passives or direct source to amplifier is as good or better I say congratulations, good job and continue to enjoy what you have. This method wouldn't satisfy me and I'd be overtly aware of all that's missing from the music. So there'll always be two camps regarding this issue. I want what I consider a complete and realistic sound and thus far only the very good quality actives deliver.
Charles, |
Hi Larryi,
In concept and theory, simpler is better is what I attempt to adhere to. My line stage is transformer volume control- input transformer-DHT tube-output transformer and is a single gain stage=pretty simple/ minimalist design. Passive is simpler yet, but at this point too much is lost. I'm all for simple until it compromises the sound. Practical results trump theory as you astutely pointed out. I like SET amplifiers for their inherent simplicity and the resultant sound. I pursue simplicity as far as I can until it becomes detrimental. Larryi I imagine that your line stage sounds fantastic. There's something about transformrrs that sound so right if implemented correctly. Admittedly using very high quality signal capacitors can sound fantastic as well with excellent implementation. When I come across a passive that equals what I hear with actives I'll happily spread the word.
Charles, . |
Hello Al,
Larry, Bill and myself all fully appreciate the point Mapman was making and it was a very sound one at that. Idealy you'd think it's possible to get the very best sound in an audio system without resorting to an active peeamp with its"added" complexity and required IC and anotherP. Cord in the mix. Eliminating these in favor of less is appealing to say the least. I know for a fact that Bill has tried with the most earnest of intentions and effort to go direct source and also passive (Lightspeed). Bill at one point sold his beloved TRL DUDE as to demonstrate his sincerity in following the "simpler" mantra.
Given Larry's very extensive experience and background I'll assume that he has heard or tried numerous attempts to remove the active preamplifier from the signal chain. I've been exposed to many passive/direct source system approaches.I can honestly say that some of these did indeed sound good and in some cases very good. In my listening evaluation none could match the realism and completeness of what a high quality active is able to achieve. Theory would predict that less circuitry or parts in a signal path should yield better sound. I strongly believe this is true, until a critical point is reached and them simpler becomes a compromise and a obstacle to the best sound that's possible.
I'll say a minimalist active will more often than not, out preform a more complex active (multiple gain stages, parts and circuitry). Here is where simplicity shows its superiority.
Charles, |
Hi Larry,
My line stage comes in two versions
1) TVC without remote control, the one I use.
2) A resistor based VC with remote control. The builder acknowledged that lack of a remote is a deal breaker for quite a few people. I don't miss the remote and I really like the transformer volume control sound quality.
Charles, |
