Seems like Wilson is answering a question that was not asked. That's usually a sign of guilt. |
Hikejohn, I think that your cost analysis is plain silly as every manufacturer follows a different formula for calculating costs. The industry does not follow any pre-made formula. Add to that the fact that many manufacturers are in the business to explore their passion rather then maximize profit. |
Westborn, if you think the energy industry is bad BSing their costs, the film industry would make you projectile vomit... preferably into the face of someone like peter guber. |
Profit margin depends on what you claim as your 'cost'. I've worked in the energy industry for 20 years, and realize what a joke it is when oil companies say they are only making a 10¢ 'profit' on a $3 gallon of gasoline. It's because they control internally what they call 'costs' like transportation, refining, marketing, advertising, distribution, etc. When they artificially inflate those 'costs' they can say that their 'costs' are $2.90, when in reality they are internally retaining $2 - split between/within the production company, the refining company, the pipeline, the gas station, etc. Poor guys, only making 10¢ on a gallon of gasoline. Yeah right. And Wilson has the smallest profit margin in the industry. |
hikejohn's cost analysis is quite accurate......i think the heat wilson takes is more about 'performance for the money' rather than profit margin.....a diminished return in this area of course is true with most expensive audio components.......today's advertising campaign focusing on workmanship, performance and low margin seems quite bizarre, given how long they've been around and their wide acceptance as a market leader......ads are generally intended to attract new customers, but these appear to be preaching to the choir. |
I find it silly that you don't like our freedom to speak our opinions. If you don't like them, then don't buy them. Our opinions that is. See the argument works both ways.
Nice day. |
I find this discussion rather silly. If you don't like a speaker....don't buy it. As to Wilson's profit margin...most companies operate on a similar set of margins within a given industry....which will vary somewhat if the sell directly to the end user...or indirectly through dealers. Part of my experience comes from helping to manage a hifi speaker manufacture...there are certain relationships between the DIRECT cost of goods and the consumer LIST PRICE. Typically it ranges from 4 to 5 times the cost of parts and labor to put the finished speaker in the box. Consequently if a speaker LISTS for $10,000....parts and labor would thus be approximately $2,000....dealers typically purchase the product from 30% to 40% of the list price....and usually the dealer pays for the freight (not an inconsequential item for Wilson Dealers)...thus the Dealer would make $3,000 - $4,000 our of which he usually pays freigh. It costs the typically dealer about 20% of the selling price....$2,000 to pay his overhead and g&a...the sales person is likely to earn about $1,000 on the sale. This leaves about 40% of the LIST price...or in this example about $4,000 for the manufacturer to pay his overhead, g&a, research and development and marketing/sales promotion. This analysis change if you were dealing with extremely high volume sales....but I suspect this is close to the financial model for Wilson....and other quality loudspeaker manufacturers.
I spent a long time before I purchased Wilson speakers...I understand that they may not appeal to all parties...but they work for me and some percentage of the market. I WANT them to make enough money to stay in business...which they seem to be doing...which is important to someone who carefully selects a given product and wishes to keep for a long time.
just my thoughts |
Audioaril wins the prize!!! The ad is quite insulting to audiophiles as a whole. Be it Wilson or whomever, give us the benifit of the doubt when it comes to our own intelligence to be able to discern fact from fantasy in the WORLD of high-end pricing. Its all over priced.... |
Come to think of it, how could Wilson possibly claim that their profit margins are the lowest? This is a ridiculous statement as the whole high-end audio industry consists of private companies who do not release their financial data. So how could Wilson possibly know how other speaker manufacturers set their profit margins??? Seems a bit insulting to the reader, in my opinion. |
Goatwuss -
Great moniker, from what/where is it derived?
My experiences are directly related to first hand experiences in several situations. This is not supposed to be a Wilson bashing on my part, just trying to get my point of not caring if their margins are indeed poor. |
I heard the Wislon line 5 yrs ago in New Orleans, was not impressed in the least. They could price em at whatever, I'm not interested. Then throw in the weight issue and amkes me wonder how/who/why anyone would buy. What Mr Wilson should explain is that they put big $$$'s in ads so they can keep the hype up and runnig hot. |
Porschecab - Have you personally had a bad experience with wilson speakers or their service and quality? Or do you feel such strong hate towards Wilson because of what you've heard other people say? |
Dgad
"I find it funny that so many of the Zu Cable speaker owners are criticizing the Wilson. Isn't it fun to be gunned for when you are at the top."
Ha, criticizing wilson? No way Zu owners criticize all other speakers..
But seriously where did anybody specifically put Zu against wilson? I mentioned some direct non-advertising companies above but that was all.. Tyler, Vmps, Zu?
To keep it constructive however not picking on Wilson, but the question was "WILSON AUDIO/ cost vs. value" and All the big audio firm's KRELL, Audio Research, Mark Levinson etc.. Are guilty of the same thing. If it costs that much more to build these type units than I don't know how to explain the little guys surviving at half the cost. |
It is so exciting, after several head to head fights directly with Wilson, to see them reducing their dealer counts. It is also great to see them having loads of issues with quality control. Many issues like the plastic 'save the finish' wrap, when removed from NEW speakers is actually PEELING the finish off. Great job Wilson.
I don't dislike the sonic characteristics of the entire Wilson line, rather feel they are acceptable even for the price. However, their customer service, business practices, and now quality control drives me to every speaker but their own. Any, quite frankly, that is a good thing. I would be one person that would entertain the idea of Wilson folding.
Selling $20,000 average proiced speakers requires better service. Surely reducing dealers can't HELP margins, but maybe making fewer will help get it right. |
Even though I'm not crazy about the
Wilson sound, or like their ads and very high prices: This is America. Wilson can charge whatever he wants. Fair? Not a factor. We have the freedom to buy or not to buy? Many factors are involved in speaker purchase for some, and sound isn't always the deciding factor. IMO, the cream usually comes to the top. Bottom line?-- if their speakers do not deliver the goods, they will ultimately go under. The Mont Blanc ball point pen that goes for a $100? I know for a fact costs them $6 to manufacture. Unfair to charge a retail of $100? Of course not. Outrageous? Maybe, but they certainly sell oodles of 'em. It always boils down to "what the market will bear." New York's Newsday has bashed teachers for years. Whether rightfully so, or not, teachers complain the hell about it, but still purchase the paper. If every teacher decided to stop purchasing the paper, do you think things might change? |
I guess some of the naysayers think the profit should be less;then Wilson could go under--like some other speaker makers?? I figure it's better to be bashed on a regular basis than to not be spoken of,at all?? |
I find it funny that so many of the Zu Cable speaker owners are criticizing the Wilson. Isn't it fun to be gunned for when you are at the top.
Most Wilson owners do compare speakers prior to purchase. They have also probably owned several high end speakers prior to owning a pair of Wilsons. Quite often they base their decisions on proferssioanl experience including studio experience or playing in an orchestar etc. I am sure this would suprise many of the bashers out there. So many fellow Wilson owners do in fact play instruments or are involved in the industry in either recording or manufacturing of equipment that it is impossible to ignore. Mind you any manufacture can get an accomodation from any speaker manufacturer so don't use that as an argument against this point.
Your local Wilson dealer you refer to does love the Wilson Maxx IIs. I know who you are talking about. He often does private demos for people & loves the Maxx IIs. The fact that he owns ATC's is indicative of his love for a 2nd type of sound at home. The ATC's are an active speaker & in that regard will sound incredible in ways the Wilson can not. I do love quite a few speakers but the ones for me that have the least amount of compromise and the best overall balance are Wilson Speakers. That is for my ears & my opinion. If Dave Wilson gets rich from this good for him. He has spent years in developement & is "there" so he can charge a premium. Won't you pay more to go to the best car mechanic if you own a Ferrari even though a lesser mechanic can do the same work most of the time? Just to be sure? |
"... all the Wilson bashing threads I've been seeing just strike me as sour grapes."
I am fortunate enough at present to be able to afford Wilson speakers if I chose to, as are a great many other people who also don't like them. I am sure there are reasonable people who like Wilson speakers, but I confess I tend to assume a large portion of Wilson owners have purchased them on reputation and not through serious competative auditions. This is, Im sure, grossly unfair to some who have carefully made their choice, but I will say that the local Wilson dealer raves about them in his store and then goes home to listen to his active ATC SCM-50s. And who can blame him? |
Profit margin for who. Him, his company, his secretary, the ad company ?
Wilson speakers have explosive dynamics and its easy to see their appeal. |
Keeping my finger out of the pie... but just as Bose builds a couple cubes for 10 dollars with marketing and sells for 1000.00 retail, Wilson builds 1500.00 speakers and sells for 7000.00 to a dealer + their markup of probably 30%... Now does that mean they are any worse than other high end markup's?
Don't know but I have seen anywhere from 300% to 500% on speakers mostly, electronics don't seem to reach that high normally. Speakers are the most profit in general in high end for the bigger ticket items, yes cables are even worse but are far lower investment in the first place(sometimes unless you buying pythons at thousands a pair).
I have actually bought speakers at about 75.00 over wholesale, the store payed 310.00 for the pair, I paid about 385.00 floor model, and retail was 1100.00! So go figure it cost about 75.00 probably to build them. Wilson uses off the shelf drivers from famed scan speak, focal etc... same with crossover parts, however they might wind their own inductors not sure, and they supposedly do have the drivers modified I am sure in the hundreds for nominal cost from the Danish and french makers..
But even you can buy wholesale stock drivers like these and still pay double what a manufacture probably would on buying hundreds at a time.
From most defense I have seen or heard as to Why wilsons cost 20,000 or whatever a pair and many other overpriced items is due to the R&D, facilities, fancy car paint, and advertising costs, is all that money into the performance dollar for dollar? absolutly not, but this is how it is for this kinda thing.. Only companies that I know of you will find a tilt the other direction is Tyler acoustics, VMPS, MAybe Montana(very similar to wilson, but a little cheaper) Zu Cable, These guys are the types making U.S.A speakers probably taking home about double what they cost to make in the end, with very little advertising, hype, etc... not nearly as strong as wilsons.
I am not wilson bashing, they are a good speaker in the conventional audiophile terms, will a 18,000 pair of wilsons beat out a similar design at 5,000? More than likely in one way or another, better listen and make a choice of the extreme cost difference's yourself.
The question was asked so I gave my take on it, but if you want to correct me and say the finish and R&D costs 9 times the speakers cost fine I will believe you :) |
come on! You believe David Wilson's rap. His whole ad campaign has him sitting on the king's throne tuning his crossovers. I must say they have a very effective adverstising strategy, but it don't fly with me. Also, I don't paticulary like the Wilson sound. I don't take any ad that seriously except on its' creative/artistic merits. Wilson ads are ho hum at best, but I'm sure they appeal to oodles. They must. They are keeping Sterophile afloat and he ain't hurting for business.... |
I am not sure you should expect a private company to publish their books.
However, the fact this is being discussed suggests that this add has provoked the desired response.....it made someone stop and think....better still it made a few people discuss it!
Better still, I suspect this ad may trigger some praise of Wilson on a discussion thread.
BTW, Dave Wilson makes really great speakers, which are very good value! |
My answer to your question is no, they should not, just as your personal finances are none of a seller's business when you're trying to buy something. And I have no reason to think that this is hyperbole. If you choose to not believe it, then don't buy their products. I'm not the absolute biggest fan of their products (though I respect them), but all the Wilson bashing threads I've been seeing just strike me as sour grapes. |
HA! HA, I say! (imagine that being said in the best Brando Streetcar impersonation.) |
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there is a difference between cost of goods margin and profit margin....the latter includes all expenses including that ad....i love wilson threads |
