wilson ad; absolute sound;issue 162. page 12.... dave wilson states in his ad that wilson loudspeakers have one of the [ lowest ] profit margins in the industry. My question is should wilson make public their profit margin percentage's to back up their claims or is this more hyperbole from a high-end audio manufacturer...
I have to say that this question is simple. If you look at many of todays loudspeakers, and the availability of parts, Madisound, parts express, sonic craft etc..., software for cabinet sim and x-over design and the web for complete cabinet drawings it is a DIY dream. The DIY speaker world, is wide open, you can create a kit, or even a complete home brew, that will sound great and look fantastic, it may even rival the best out there, of course most folk that say that are always a victim of Beraneks law (Beranek's Law It has been remarked that if one selects his own components, builds his own enclosure, and is convinced he has made a wise choice of design, then his own loudspeaker sounds better to him than does anyone else's loudspeaker. In this case, the frequency response of the loudspeaker seems to play only a minor part in forming a person's opinion.) This can save you, in some cases thousands of dollars, of course in most cases there are some flaws, the drivers were not matched and measured individually and the x-over was not matched to the drivers, more likely they were soldered and installed. This again may achieve great result for a good price.
This is where the Wilson comes in, NOBODY could build a Wilson in there Garage, for less money, it would be much more expensive to build a direct DIY copy of a Wilson. This is not a speaker that looks like a Wilson made out of MDF, but X and M, machined parts, custom spikes, perfect paint, perfect copy, good luck it would cost the amount of a small house for such a project. The Wilson love them or hate them are a engineering masterpiece when it comes to overall build quality, the DIY world cannot order machined ports from Madisound, you will have to go to a machine shop and have them make you a few, big money if you have them finished like Wilson. The difference in price between plastic ports ordered directly from a parts house or a custom machined port will be 20 fold. I implying the machined ports will be superior sonically to the plastic, but more to say that it is not the same as a Wilson. There are many high-end speaker that with some design exceptions (of course the ones that matter to me, driver and x-over matching) you can get pretty close out of your garage for less money. Wilson will cost you more to make at home, and you will still not come close to a perfect copy. If you feel they do not sound good, do not buy them, but they are a very expensive speaker to build and a design that cannot be done DIY for less money, so in my book they are an extreme value. If you think, I am wrong then build a perfect copy of a Wilson cheaper again not MDF and stock parts, and bad paint, a perfect copy.
L.L. Beranek, Acoustics (McGraw-Hill, New York, 1954), p.208.)
Tvad , have not even 1 Tyler. I am basing my opinion on the fact he uses the same drivers as my seas' kit. I figure the sound msut be close. I have plans to pick up a pr of Systems 2, the 3 way, sometime next yr. Wish I could offer a more solid opinion. There is areview out on Tyler in one of the audio mags, this month.
Tvad, not refering to Von Schweikert. What I was getting at it China may build some electroics/many designs copies from french, or designed in europe, when it comes to speakers they have a ways to go to catch up to the Danes. I realize many here do not want to see ssales on amps go to the chinese, but this is what the new world economy is all about. Think about this, the latins from all over central america come to this country for decades now, and in ever increasing numbers, which i have no issues with. Miami is the "capital of cuba". But for some reason they ALL (90%) buy Toyotas. That is (used to be 100%) a japenese car. Don;'t you think if they REALLY love this country they'd at least consider a Detroit car? They do not. I do not post much on the amp forum cause everyone can pick and chose his style. Speakers is a different animal, for the most part. Some are in fact better than others.
"all prices covered...the bottom range at $6K..." Not many of us can afford that asking price, though i know used they can be had for half. Still I think I can do better. I guess Tvad balances out my comments on Wilson with his "Wilson magic". I realize Wilson is directed to a specific high end market and alot of attention goes into his product. If you want big sound, maybe its the price you gotta pay. Whatever.
BOa I understand that you did speak in a general sense. No harm done. Grant, as much as I admire a particular amp designed in germany/built in china, I'd never buy a chinese speaker, unless of course it was designed by the Danes with Danish parts. The chinese will never make a speaker on their own, worth my interest. The chinese may copy some things in the future, but never to match equally the best Danish drivers. If a amp made in china can deliver what Im looking for(sound quality/build quality) at a very fair (low/cheap) price, I'm gonna go for it. Sure I feel for the US/brit labs. They are about to "take the hit", maybe a big one. I just took the "katrina hit'. Life is not fair, such it is. I heard the Wilson's in a fair setting, no disadvantage at all. What amp it was/cdp I cannot recall. I look at it this way, Wilson sets himself up for criricism. Why? Because at those prices you should expect a sound that matches. When i go to hear a expensive speaker I kick my critical era up a few notches. Nothing gets by me, I nail down every fiber of the sound. I zone in to each range of fq to see whats really going on. i disect the sound, and also do a macro imaging test, soundstage = does it sound lifelike, vividness as someone called it.
We did not start this. It was Dave who wants to kiss and make up. No doubt due to sagging sales. No matter how successfull there are only so many units to be sold in high end audio. Dave figures there maybe some people who want Wilson's but will not buy because of misconceptions about price gouging. In WIlson's defense he has the line covered from top to bottom. Around $6k for the Cubs all the way to the top.
To be honest I did hear the 'slamms with cj art 2 and premier 8's sound good. It just seemd I could do better for less.
Maybe Dave should make a turntable. They seem to be the new"chic".
I was watching this old house and yes there was a high end turntble setting on the counter. " A good turntable can sound better than CD". Yikes!!
Oneobgyn-your system remains the envy of audiogoners and no one thinks you were ripped off.
That you heard a Wilson speaker in a N.O showroom and disliked the sound is no surprise. Some dealer set ups of Wilson speakers are sub-optimal. Was it Wilson Audio (no relation) or Audio Resource where you heard the speakers? Can't recall which carries the line.
>>>btw you do not see post much in the amp forum, beacuse everyone will have his particular taste and amps have a much greater range of characteristics. Ecah can pick and chose as he pleases.<<<
Please tell me your kidding. I don't think I'm out on a limb in stating that speaker/room type/setup are _by far_ the greatest arbiters of the end result in sound quality in _any_ 2 ch. system.
Amp/speaker interface is a distant second--but that's a shortsighted analogy as all factors, source. pre, power, signal etc are important-- but speaker room/set-up are #1 with a bullet. Screw that up and nothing else matters.
I'm not saying Wilson should be for everyone, but it does strike me-- the number of people with negative things to say that have _no_ direct experience with the Wilson speakers other than stating "I heard it at a "dealer" or a "show" as if that constitutes valid opinion compared to in home audition.
I'm not a Wilson defender. I have enjoyed a great many speaker designs in my day and would never critisize others choices or imply anyone is a dupe or has more money than sense in their speaker choice, ---yet that is exactly what is occurring here, with posts inferring the choice of a Wilson speaker is status related--what absolute nonsense.
With so much business in speakers, electronics and cables going to China, Taiwan etc from the US, I'm surprised there's so little latitude given, by so many, for a US company that keeps everything in house. If anything, we should keep that in perspective. Do you have _any_ idea how much it costs for a US company to keep production stateside versus overseas? I do.
You want Chinese made product translated to speakers, keep it up and you'll have your wish.
Compromised Chinese made products at inflated US prices. Think I'm ill informed? I've got a set of faux US set of Chinese golf clubs to sell ya.
Boa2 "..everyone desires financial success, and most are begruding toward those who have achieved it". First I'll say I do not have money, nad Katrina made that even worse (no job) and even if I did , that is have BIG $'s the wilson's would not even be on my list, not even a consideration. I do not see any unfair comments made by us "the poor and the dejected" towards wilson's speakers. Only saying what we know. When spaekers are the topic we should mention all the +'s/-'s of each line. I heard thE wilson's 5 yrs ago at a local shop in New Orleans, and frankly was not impressed in any way/shape/form. btw you do not see post much in the amp forum, beacuse everyone will have his particular taste and amps have a much greater range of characteristics. Ecah can pick and chose as he pleases. But when it comes to speakers then I'll have my opinion in this most critical component. Are you buying the Wilson just because YOU can afford it? See that comment works both ways.
However, why is it that the same people all too often try to inflict their economic beliefs that those on the other side are either wrong, arrogant, seeking status or etc, etc?
Because we live in a culture where everyone desires financial success, and yet most are begrudging of those who have achieved it.
It amazes me how these threads predictably run ad nauseum.
For me, my mantra has "ALWAYS" been....."let your ears and your wallet decide. It should be that simple. If someone is happy with an $800 DIY kit, I have no problem. However, why is it that the same people all too often try to inflict their economic beliefs that those on the other side are either wrong, arrogant, seeking status or etc, etc?
Bottom line is that there is no correct answer other than for each of us to do what lights up our ears and rocks our sonic boat. I have owned at least 25 different sets of speakers over the past 35 years. Over the last 10 years I have worked my way up the Wilson line from WP 5.1's,WP 6's, MAXX's, X-1 Series 3 and now the X-2's. I couldn't agree more with the comments as to their absurd price. However I have toured the Wilson factory in Provo and seen the workmanship as well as the quality control that goes into the production of a pair of these speakers. It takes at least 2 weeks to build and finish a pair. The quality control is exceptional and the customer service is secondary to none.The staff at Wilson audio are always receptive to a phone call to give advice as to one's concerns. I have also visited Dave Wilson's home to hear a demo between the X-1 and the X-2. That was in October 2003. Just when I felt that I had the perfect system, I knew after hearing the X-2's, my X-1's sounded broken.I have done this hobby for 35 years. It is what I enjoy after a busy day at the office. It is rest and relaxation.I ordered my speakers in November 2003 and had to wait until April 2004 to take delivery as only 2 pair per week go into production. The wait was worth it. For the installation my dealer flew 2 installers to my house to take down my X-1's,crate them up and arranged to ship them out. They spent 2 days at my house setting up the X-2's and fine tune the system. In the course of those two days, many phone calls were made to Wilson Audio to ensure the exact positioning of the upper modules. When they left I felt that everything I have strived for in audio over the previous 35 years had been reached. What other company in the speaker business provides this same degree of customer satisfaction? IMO there just isn't a better speaker in the market today than the X-2. Certainly there are many in this price range or even higher. It is curious to me how it is only Wilson Audio that always takes the beating for his high priced speakers. Dave is sincere in his passion and quest to bring audio nirvana to we audiophiles. He is an absolute gentleman. Was it expensive for me? Absolutely. Based on my mantra, that is my story. I am certain however that I will never buy another set of speakers. My journey is complete.
>>>"No one is bashing Wilson, just trying to put things in proper perspective." <<<
I'm still chuckling at that comment. Obviously, you haven't read the thread through, or decided to skip over the posts that were full on baseless attacks, numbering at least a dozen.
MacroJack did a good job of describing basic economics and margins within general commercial enterprise--not high end electronics or speakers however. He wholly skipped many fundamental equations. Using gross anecdotes and generalities is no smoking gun nor evidence of poor, moderate or good value. What the ad says can stand or fall on it's own merit. Based on Wilson's history, standard of quality, incredible used market value and top-line dealer support, I'd say the ad is more true than not.
It's easy to take on-line anonymous pot shots. Another thing altogether to put your procuct, business, reputation and _word_ on the line for any Tom, Dick or Harry to scrutinize or belittle.
Dave's done it for years. Who among AudioGon rock throwers cares to claim the same?
I like Macrojack's comments on the "real" (somewhat relative) value of any speaker. What he is trying to bring out is that we really need to take a step back and see what we are paying for, his moto and mine would be "by paying more, you may not get more". macro goes on to say , how anyone cares to spend their money is their business, he just wants to get things in focus, he enjoys making critical assessments of price structures. I like his approach. I hate to keep briing up the Seas (stop HYPEING the Seas' would ya please!!!) I added up the price of the drivers as sold retail on madisound add in the Xover parts, + finely made cabinets, attractive, the price comes to very close to exactly what I pd for the kit. Sure I had to pay Richard Grey a fair price (he charged much less than what I actually gave him), took him all of about 30 minutes for BOTH!. Speedy on the gun. Then considering whats in it for the designer of the xover, Dr Apolito, nothing really. I can account for every $ in my speaker. Whats its true value, well each has to make his own conclusions after hearing. You may find its not for you at any price. For me its adifferent story(that is I'd pay much more). The B7W's I bought a few yrs before the seas' kit, cost me $800 for the 602's. Frankly after knowing their sound after a few yrs, they are not worth what i pd. I;d say $500 is fair price new. I see they've come down in price to $700 new/603's, taller cabinet. . Macro asks, "are you getting value for what you are paying for?" Its a harmless question, but one that should be asked, especially as our $ is shrinking in value in this current economy. Look it was Mr Wilson that opened up this 'can of worms" in the first place, with his ad statement. No one is bashing Wilson, just trying to put things in proper perspective. I actually heard the Wilson line 6 yrs ago, can't recall the associated components, or the exact sound, just know what I heard at that time.
Two days ago, I phoned Wilson to request information on the Watt Puppy 8. I'm a brochure hound, I admit it. Today, I received a large folder containing a personalized letter, as well as contact information for the Wilson dealer closest to me. In the packet were printed reviews and individual catalogs for every product they sell. The last speaker manufacturer I phoned for a brochure sent a photocopy of only two reviews, and this after I had to send them six e-mails and phone them twice over a 3-month stretch. Each time, the sales rep had said "it's in the mail". Incidentally, they are in the same price range as Wilson. You can draw your own conclusions, but to me, this packet attempts to say that they value the customer as a person, not as a price. Hence the reason many people use the purchase to reciprocate the same sentiment.
Drubin- Shipping is typically born by the purchaser. The other points you raise are post production and not considered part of the production cost so they don't alter the model as I presented it. The ads in question seemed to state that Wilson enjoys a smaller margin than other manufacturers. My figures represent an educated guess as to how that might not be true. I don't claim to know any facts and figures. However, even if the margin is any smaller than any number of other manufacturers, the volume and unit price still land him among the gentry. None of the realities of Dave's finances really matter here as long as the assertion in the ads is correct. The numbers as I see them probably contradict that claim.
Again, I can't argue on if the Wilson statement is accurate or not, as much as anyone else here can't, but being involved in the manufacturing of amplifiers that are in the process of changing its entire line and looking at the costs ahead and behind us so far, for things like C&C machinery, specialized booths, engineering costs, tooling, industrial design, I can tell you without conjecture it can cost close to a million dollars to bring honest products to market.
I suspect Wilson could have much more than that invested in their facilities and if one does not include all daily operational expenses, one would not be in business long, there is so much more to it than a simple equation of cost of production to retail.
So unless someone here is Wilson's accountant, we can only speculate on if Wilson's claim is accurate or not but from where I sit, I can see it being closer to the truth, than not.
FYI, I do not own a pair of Wilson speakers or have I ever, nor do I suspect that Wilson has ever used or even heard of our amps but I feel to single out a prominent manufacturer who may have millions as well as decades invested, whither or not we like the speaker and simply because some feel that an advertising statement is misleading, is simply wrong and extremely judgmental, especially without any kind of pertaining facts.
My defense is not only for Wilson but I feel it's to all honest manufacturers who have spent a greater part of their lives along with immense investments to bring products to consumers who are very happy with them, Bose and Polk included.
Question to Macrojack: Does the 1/5 of MSRP refer to COGS alone? What exactly is included? Before we can declare that his margin is 67% (12k/18K), we need to consider such costs as warranty expense, shipping (not trivial on Wilson speakers), sales and marketing as well as other G&A expenses. When it gets to profit that falls to the bottom line and accrues to the owners, I expect it's a much smaller number than $12K per WATT/Puppy.
883dave- The post immediately preceeding yours would indicate that I responded in the manner sought by the original poster. That, however, is the only comment you offer with which I disagree. But, while you are factually accurate, in your cable comparison, I'm pretty sure the analogy wasn't quite parallel. Radio Shack is selling some sort of raw cable and the Zu product is terminated. I don't know what this means in precise numbers but it seems to equate to a comparison between the price of raw drivers from company A and the price of finished speakers from company Z. How Wilson's company is structured addresses what happens to the profits more than how great they were.
"My question is should wilson make public their profit margin percentage's to back up their claims or is this more hyperbole from a high-end audio manufacturer..."
My answers are No they should not make public their profit margin percentage's...and yes it is just more hyperbole....it seems to be the way of advertising today...make any claims you want with out any back up
Mr Wilson has been critized for trying to lead us to believe, without supplying enough information, why do you feel your Typical model applies here without knowing anything about how his company is structured?
Here is an example of excess Cost vs. Value that supports your profit model
Radio Shack speaker wire has been rated as a best buy at 19.99 per 100' roll or $0.1999 per foot. Zu Cable (I use this because of the previous refferences on this thread, and also because they include price on their website) sells speaker cable at 23.93 (their cheapest) per foot. That is a difference of $23.73 per foot "WOW" I know that this is wrong, I do not have enough information so it is just supposition. Which is what the context of this post was about.
hello- macrojack; I see you understand the heart of the question as opposed to name brand loyality, thanks for the reasonable imput concerning cost vs. value as was the intention of the thread...
Whether or not someone or many people like their speakers does not address the topic of this thread. I'm glad that they are happy and enjoy pride of ownership. That's nice. Nice. The matter up for discussion has to do with Mr Wilson's public claim that his company operates with a smaller profit margin than most other manufacturers. Because I have some experience on the inside of this game, I see a likelihood that his claim is bogus. Typically speaker manufacturers who sell through a dealer network price the finished product at about 5 times the actual cost to manufacture and package the goods for delivery. Back office expenses are not included in the base figure for this calculation and neither is advertising or insurance. Knowing this we will take the model for our conversation to be the $30,000 pair of speakers. If his markup is normal, then he would have $6000 involved in the parts and labor for one, uno (1) pair of speakers. Is this even imaginable? Now consider the model around a $125,000 pair and picture $25,000 in parts and labor for a single pair of speakers. Did you know that you can have someone build you an oversized two car garage with automatic door opener and insulation and sheetrock on a concrete pad for about that much money? I wonder if that could be as labor intensive as a pair of speakers. I'm not jealous, I'm incredulous. I don't care if we're talking about Wilson or Goldmund or Sigmund or Freud. Dave Wilson is the one who opened this can of worms and aolmrd 1241 asked the question. I think his query is reasonable and I'm amazed that so many of you behave as if you are being personally attacked. And remember that the numbers I used are for industry standard pricing. If Dave is to be believed, his costs are even higher than those I posited. If you take the $30,000 model and parse the take, your dealer gets 40 points or $12,000 for selling the speakers at reatail. He may (probably will) discount them but that comes out of his share. Wilson is unaffected. Ole Dave gets the remaining $18,000 from which we deduct the original $6000 cost of production. That leaves $12,000 to pay the front office and the rest of the enumerated costs. Suppose he sells 20 pairs of this model ( probably a very conservative estimate) per month. WOW. That's $240,000. WOW. What about the $125,000 speaker pair? Well, as the model stands, that speaker generates $50,000 in profit for the dealer and for Wilson. That's per pair. We have to guess that there are few pairs of these sold and that one a month would be an exaggeration. So anyway I believe that Wilson is showing a gross profit on the order of a half a million per month. Good for him. That's the old American success story in a nutshell. He's been at this for nearly 30 years and he's pulled it off as well as Polk or Bose or Infinity. Maybe better. The only problem arises when he comes to us and asks us to believe he's taking a beating. It just isn't believable.
It would have been nice for the Wilson owners on this thread to voice their opinion on the subject of cost vs value, as they are the people who rightly deciede this issue, as they keep Dave Wilson and his team in business.
There has been a lot of derogatory comments on this thread by people who do not, have not and will not own Wilson products.
I can only assume the Wilson owners are blissfully unaware of this thread as they sit in front of their "WILSON" speakers enjoying what they were meant to do. I find it amazing that there is not more Wilson trumpting here, it indicates to me that Wilson owners do not have to prove to the world or the audio community that there product is good, better or best.
Henryhk...thanks for the comment, it really sums it well.
I beg to differ. Dave by his owm admission declared his company profit driven. Declaring he cared little for audiophiles and only cared about those who had $10k to purchase the Watt/Puppys. That was what they were selling for at that time. Now that all the Saudi shieks have made their purchase, he now wnts to return to his base. I for one am always happy when the prodigal son returns home. But let 's not re-write history. Now that he is home we do not owe him any special treatment. He has to compete with his siblings for the attention and love of his parents like everyone else. After all he left on his own. We did not drive him out. You should buy the Wilson's because you like them and not to help Dave out.
Thanks Holenneck for sharing that link to the Wilson business program. I filtered out all the business crap and just listened to what Wilson had to say. He said some very interesting things. He pays full benefits to his employees. He doesn't like the vocabulary of "growing a business." (Thank god that someone is standing up against such perversions of the language). And he's not that concerned with having a greater profit margin, even though he probably does well financially. I respect his speaker line. They're not to my taste but I'm pretty sure they're priced fairly for what goes into them, including his labor costs and overhead. I'm not opposed to having equipment built in China and Bangladesh, assuming the workers are treated well and they aren't underpaid too badly, but I like the fact that Wilson wants to do it all in-house and according to the costs that are specific to the US.
Anyway, thanks Holenneck for passing along that link. Seeing it leads me to respect Wilson for not making profit his primary concern as opposed to his love for audio. I get a sense that he's genuine about that. I'm sure he makes a good living. and I think his speakers are well-made and appropriate for a certain audience that has the ears for them. I think its important to remember in all of these discussions that we all have different ears and preferences. Some people are going to really like Wilson products and others not so. I think that Wilson has done a service to a certain corner of the high end audio audience. I respect that, even if I'm not part of it and don't want to be.
Given the value is utltimately sound quality which in turn is quite subjective, whether pricing/perceived value again is subjective and is also based on one's wealth (the marginal value we put on each incremental dollar spent). As such, I find these debates rather useless...including the cost mark up way of thinking: it doesn't matter in the end. Each to his own in tastes & budget and thus perceived value.
Warren... It has been said that people generally stop spending money in their early fifties, so maybe we all revert back to being frugal like the young only now with a different reason.
If you are not wild about the sound, which is not your cup of java, why have you not sold the puppy's yet?
As for picking on Dave Wilson, I believe that once you get sucessful, or high profile in the media eye, the masses start to notice and take sides, we all need hero's to embellish, and villian's to debase.
PS...nice looking system, bet there is a lot of time in front of it.
Dave, excellent point. There are things I do, own, have done for me that, when I was a young buck, I thought to be ridiculous to spend the money on. Now I do those things and oodles more. Why? Because I have the means. As to Wilsons, being worth the money? I haven't heard their new Puppy, but the ones I have, I'm not wild about the sound. I don't understand why all these audiophools are picking on Dave Wilson and his (to me) over priced speakers. Don't buy em and clam up. He's entitled to his markup. Fair or unfair. Wilson does give you a lot of weight and fine craftmanship...sound? Not my cup of java..
There seems to be a lot of contention about Wilson products, price, size, weight, sound, color...everyone seems to have an opinion.
In my life I have found Cost vs. Value is generally in the depth of my wallet.
A couple of examples...
I use to think that Mobile Fidelity recordings were way too much money and not a good financial value, until years later when my income level increased to the point of having disposable cash, now I am sorry I did not purchase the complete catalog as they were released. If I had of they would now be Value vs. Cost (what an investment that would have been)
Or...in my younger years Steak and Lobster was way over rated and quite frankly not worth the expense, hamburgers and fries were the way to go. Steak and Hamburger come from the same source, so why such a discrepancy, or disparity in price, as they are both beef. It takes more work and time to produce hamburger than steak so why is steak more expensive? I now think steak is expensive but not over rated as I can now afford it on a regular basis.
Is it right to assume Cost vs. Value is a derivative of income, and does it sway or have a bearing on a persons opinions toward a product?
How many of the posters on this thread actually own, or have owned, WIlson products?
Out of the people who have, what do you feel about the cost vs value issue now, are you comfortable with what you paid, or do you now feel the price was inflated, and you did not get good value?
Parts only make up a limited percentage of any product cost, as a person involved in manufacturing, I can tell you, there is Industrial design cost, which can be in the six figure range, product design costs, can also be in the six figure range, prototyping/ material selection costs, expert assemble and handling costs (cabinet makers), factory cost (taxes, lights, heat, air condition, water), then there is "after" costs, like liability insurance, health insurance, shipping, warranty costs, marketing, shows, future research and development, damages and so many other small stuff it would make your head spin.
Now all this investment has to be made back, plus the cost of parts.
How can we even begin to point fingers at Wilson, I mean, does your wife have diamonds, gold, how about art work, designer cloths, handbags, shoes, watches, do you eat in any fine restaurant, it is a class thing I am afraid, the only reason we think $27K or $250K is over the curve, is because to you and I it is, but to many it's nothing, so therefore to those that can afford these speakers it's worth every penny.
I am not sure if Wilson is right in what he says in the ad (unless we see his books and every other speaker manufacturers) but I do understand what he's trying to say.
I thought this discussion was about value, perceived or real, and not about economic class distinctions. Whether or not anyone choses to spend their money on a $300,000 bicycle does not prove that the bicycle is worth that much, or isn't. The determinant I would use has more to do with whether people who need to think about how they spend their money can justify such a purchase. As someone pointed out to me earlier, all of this stuff is ridiculously priced. I agree. What we pay for even modest audio equipment is hard to justify relative to what most things in your household cost. What I meant to indicate by referring to Wilson as "one of the worst offenders, is that they move the needle way up on the exploitometer. Their products are priced so far beyond the cost of parts and labor that you can't see them both at the same time because of the curvature of the earth. Think about what it can possibly cost. I just replaced all of my kichen counters with slab granite. The work was done by the premier granite fabricator in our area with numerous upgrade features that added to the cost. I paid $6000 for that. Do you imagine that a pair of X-2 cabinets cost more? Add in the crossover, drivers and binding posts and remember that all these items cost much less in the volume that Wilson purchases than they would if you bought a few. I assure you that cost of parts and materials on those $125,000 speakers does not exceed 10% of the asking price. The normal markup for speaker manufactures is 4 to 5 times the cost of parts and assembly and packaging labor. Does it really cost Wilson $25,000 to $30,000 to build a pair of those?
I think Holenneck might be hinting that a $100k Mercedes is more like a $10k speaker, and that a $125+ speaker is more like a $400k+ (or 1mil) car (especially a hand-built, custom model). Maybe I'm way off base on that one.
As for the original topic at hand, I agree the ad copy is targeting naive readers who some of who probably feel Wilson is charging exhorbant prices. "Gee I guess they're a good value after all!" I don't get a sense that it was aimed at enlightened audionuts, like us. Although I am happy that Wilson makes enough money to consistently take out full page ads in Stereophile, thus helping to subsidize the magazine and maintain my $1/copy subscription.
My take on it is this. Wilson is a successful business man. He knows his client base, and has carved out a successful niche (niches?) while resisting market erosion. I applaud him for that. He's obviously doing well. Would I buy his product? Not unless I had a lot more disposable income (or a lot more income period). The value just isn't there for me. Although he does have a good performing product.
Audiophools like me will need to make their own economic decisions. If the wilson product appeals to their tastes, and it economically doable within the household budget, then it's a good value. But that's a value that has nothing to do with Wilson's costs - publicised or not. The value is only compared against the final retail selling price. It doesn't matter to me if there is $27k profit, $1k profit, or a $2k loss with each set of WP8 sold ($28k retail). Well, the loss or the razor profit might worry me if I was concerned about the company's viability for long term warranty repairs or service. But that's Wilson's problem. And I take that into account when I do my own "value" calculation.
Truth be told, if I had more bucks than time, I'd just get a turn-key solution from a dealer (maybe a Wilson dealer), pay the bucks, and enjoy my stereo. Perhaps that is the value that Wilson is generating.
"I believe they are the highest profile offender", Offender!! Offender of what? They design and manufacture speakers, that sell to persons that can afford it and these people buy it, they want it, or they would not build them, they are creating and meeting a demand and as far as I can see, the only people that take offence to that are the ones that can't afford it.
Not many people know that you can spend 125k on a pair of speakers. Plenty of people know and readly accept spending that kind of money on a car. Buying a 125k car is like buying a Watt Puppy 8 at 25k, buying a pair of x-2's is like buying a ferrari or some other super expensive car i dont know about.
I understand you will again disagree with me, i accept that you will do so, but the x-2 is a specialty speaker, mercedes are an everyday car, even the really expensive ones......
Holenneck - I chose to use Wilson speakers in my analogy for two reasons. First - I believe they are the highest profile offender although you are right about there being others. Secondly, Wilson is the topic of this thread. You say there are cars that are more expensive than $125,000 and that makes my analogy "not even close". Illogical again. The topic was prestige or pride of ownership or status. Mercedes wrote the book on that topic. Walk out your front door and start asking people what they think of when you say Wilson. Then try the same thing with Mercedes. This is where "not even close" will show up.
I agree with you, people will pay 125k for speakers; they also pay that much for a wrist watches.
If you simply go on a cost to cost ratio, sure, the Mercedes makes more sense.
But we are talking about loudspeakers, and I believe there a more speakers over the 100k barrier than the x-2. Why arent we talking about them?
S-class Mercedes is to automobiles as Wilson x-2's is to audio?
That comparison isnt even close!!!! There are cars that cost several times 125k, so Mercedes is actually an average priced luxury car; the x-2 is the king of the hill.
So to say that my argument is illogical is fine, but to look at it the way you are looking at is also illogical.
In the end, despite my argument I will never purchase a pair of x-2's unless a miracle occurs in my bank account, but i still respect Dave Wilson's products and the prices he chooses to sell them.
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