Wifi vs ethernet revisited

Hi folks

The topic caught my attention, and I'm glad it did and I read thru to the latest post.    There were many things I read I had a xomment in mind, but too many to remember, so this is more general.

Firstly, I use WiFi to connect to my Devialet Pro, which is my streamer and DAC (andamp). The roon core is Antipodes CX Oladra with a few enhancements.  I have concluded (so far) that the benefit is ...  not connecting another wire to the Devialet.  The wifi is a Mikrotik mAP lite, powered by usb battery.  It is a foot from the Devialet to ensure strong connection.  Nothing else uses that wifi.  It is connected to Etgerregen Side B via Shunyata Sigma.  Basically it 'floats' between the moat and wifi and AC.  There other tweaks to it.  This has evolved and far superior to when I first tried wifi for this connection years ago and someday I try plugging the Sigma into the Devialet.

ER Side A connects to the CX and via fibre to my Router - Mikrotik CRS 305, a little brother of the model used by Dejitterit Switch X.  I got that idea from Audiophile Style 'Optical Network' thread which highlights the benefits of the 10G spec (low jitter, perhaps why Chris chose it for SwitchX). The CRS 305 is obviously better than the Ubiquiti EdgeRouter X SFP it replaced - it was a straight swap.  The CRS 305 connects to the ONT (1G national broadband).  It also connects via fibre to a FMC > Cat 6a UTP > TP Link WAP to provide wifi which I use to control roon.

My network has no other traffic when I listen to music, except me browsing a bit online.

The ONT and CRS are on a separate AC circuit, AC isn't optimal, but I use ifi AC purifier as AC conditioning and ground treatment.  However the ER is on the dedicated audio room AC (JPS labs, Furutech AC, 20A breaker) and has its own conditiioner (Shunyata Sigma > Cyclops > Synergistic Research Atmosphere Level 3 > W4S LPS > Synergistic Research DC cable).

All network hardware is on Synergistic Research Tranquility PODs, and grounded to Synergistic Research Ground Block SE or passive block, mostly using Hi Def Ground cables.

In all this context, my wifi is doing very well.  It is not preventing me from hearing the benefit of every tweak, roon update and even increasing my ISP upload speed from 4 to 12mbps.

But I would recommend keeping a mesh wifi outside the direct route from ONT (or whatever you may have) and the audio gear.  Unfortunately it seems every bit of the network can be optimised to improve sound quality outcomes.  I have taken the route of optimising rather than adding more switches - I still have more that can be done.

I am intrigued by the SwtichX, it could be a router.  Synergistic Research Router functions as a 2nd router that separates the audio traffic/activity from the rest.  I gather uses a 1G Mikrotik Routerboard, however it's jitter might be lower than typical 10G due to all the 'treatment' it's wrapped in.  I think Network Acoustics Router is 10G.  On the topic of routers, a problem is firewall and other security is much easier with mainstream gear.  Maybe there a way to have one router in the direct route to audio that operates very simply, but with 'something' connected to it doing security outside that direct route.

I hope all this is thought provoking and useful in some way.

@dbastin yes, all very useful for me as I think about how to reconstruct my setup; thanks.

Quick question: you write that "ER Side A connects to the CX and via fibre to my Router - Mikrotik CRS 305." What are the transceivers you are using?

@dbastin In quickly perusing your setup the only issue I see is the wifi RFI issue in both Mikrotik and Devialet. Now I can see heroic issues taken by manufacturers to shield other circuits and components within devices, don't know if that case with these devices. My other issue is with the wifi receivers themselves, this especially vs a cleaned up and optimized ethernet input in a streaming device. This what my server accomplishes via my JCAT NetXE card. In my early days of streaming I went through a series of three different diy modded Mac Minis, won't go through all the permutations, but at one point was doing wifi with the 1st mini, eventually one of the mods was going to hard wire input, another subsequent move was to remove wifi antenna and disconnect circuit board connection to wifi receiver. In direct comparison there was an incremental improvement I could detect even in this relatively low level streaming setup. Not saying the Mikrotik and Devialet may have superior RFI suppression in their components. My own conclusion is absolutely no wifi on 'clean' or audio side of home network.

I'd also add RFI is likely an issue for us even with a 'clean' network for audio streaming. Most of us live in a very rich RFI environment, what with all the radio frequency equipment used on a mass scale. Some years ago I had located a Linn Mimik cd player in this one particular place in my listening room where I was picking up an FM station through my stereo system, moved the player no more issues. Dimmer switches are another source easily heard.So point is while this extreme example think how much RFI is masked, we simply don't hear it as an FM radio station of whatever, I presume very few of us really fully hear the full potential of our systems due to environmental RFI. I don't doubt are physical health impacted to some degree as well, plenty of info out there on this. In any case there are reasonable steps we can take to minimize it's impact on our stereo system.

@debrajray I use Cisco from Afterdark Audio because I havent got around to Finisar.

@sns I used to have those concerns and avoided wifi.  Then I spent some time with Auralic Aries G1, tried my best wired solution with daisy chained ERs and Gigafoils with 'Audiophile' ethernet cables  (although some shared power sources because I didn't have more LPSs, and didn't know better then).  Then tried wifi instead (WAP replaced all the ERs/ Gigafoils) and wifi was a bit better.  Then thought I'd use wifi direct to Devialet and was shocked it was at least as good ... and the G1 and its $4k power cord became redundant ... along with the ERs, Gigafoils, cables, until I started putting them upstream and began a new avenue of discovery, followed by refocus on separating power sources, and optimising cable sheilds and grounds which led to paring back again.  Still so much to try and so little time.  DC cables and seperate battery for each ethernet device is the next avenue.

Streaming is so complex and crazy. Sometimes more is less, other times less is more. We have so many devices to choose from to the point we're not close to determining some reference streaming network. Choosing hierarchy of dacs, streamers easy compared to the network.

sns

Streaming is so complex and crazy. 

Some people make it that way. But the fact is that streaming is r-e-a-l-l-y simple. That's why so many people are doing it.

@cleeds This is true, I started with a laptop. On the other hand, there is no end of streaming/network devices out there, some have found them to be helpful. Also, I presume those with more complex setups enjoy the entire process of experimenting with these devices, I find it fascinating and its provided continually improving sound quality.

Here is great information on Switch X and Wifi X and how this wifi has less affect on sound:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4V8ZaVv9aoM

I think this explains things way better than my attempt.

@fastfreight  That was interesting and should be viewed by all the IT “experts” here who swear streamers, switches, etc. can’t make a difference because Word documents get transmitted flawlessly. 🙄  I think David Robinson nods off around 13:30 into the video and almost again at 16:30. 🤣  Maybe that’s rum or something in his cup. 

Hi @soix thanks and +1.  I was thinking vodka, but yes!

As the OP, thanks to all for teaching me so much. Here is a summary of where I am now. 

I have two systems: (1) Moon 791/Moon 761/Wilson Watt Puppies (50th anniversary), and an older (2) Auralic Vega G2.1/Moon761/B&W Nautilus 804. (The B&Ws might seem like a weak link but I’ve had them since 2002 and love them.)

My goal: separate the Wifi and audio LANS to the extent possible. I concede that this may not be the optimal strategy, but that’s what I tried out (cf @soix ​​@sns).

I used a TP-Link ER707-M2 as the baseline router. Rationale: I have a 2 gig connection and wanted to exploit their 2.5gb port for the Eero mesh. The TP-Link has no wifi though I would have disabled it anyway. I turned off all the Omada stuff. It is serving up IP addresses and that’s that.

(WiFi) Eero running in bridge mode from the 2.5 gb LAN port.

(Audio 1) I am using the SFP port on the router to feed a fiber optic cable using Finisar transceivers. This runs to an Etherregen (with a Farad LPS) and then into the Auralic.

(Audio 2) LAN ethernet out -> long run to another room ->Trendnet unmanaged switch -> fiber via Finisar again -> second Etherregen -> Moon 791.

(Roon core) LAN ethernet to Roon core (MacMini). 

These LANs are all flat with the same subnet and I have zero problem with Roon discovery -- my phone is on the Eero mesh and has no problem reaching out to the audio LANs.

The sound is amazing. (Of course, the WWPs are better than the B&Ws.)

I am sure that this setup can be improved but unless I swap out some serious core equipment (e.g., the B&Ws which I am kind of attached to), I do not believe it can be significantly improved. For instance, the Farad clearly and quite emphatically improved the SQ for my system ending at the B&Ws, but it seemed to have a negligible effect on the other system ending with the WWPs. I mention this only to say that while I surely suffer from some degree of confirmation bias, it is unlikely that all the perceived improvement can be laid at that particular door.

There is so much more that can be done. Some of it I will do, like a better power supply for the router. But I am pretty sure that (barring better core equipment) I am most of the way there. As always guys, your suggestions are most welcome and will be implemented when I next find the time...

@fastfreight Thanks for that video, don't poo poo the network!

Now I'm intrigued by the Dejitterit equipment, have to do my research on these products, will search the Audiophilestyle forum for threads on this. I'm really surprised the guys on youtube video are making claims these network products are affecting timbre, tonality, I've never heard any network device affect this, presentation, yes, presentation meaning timing, flow, this a clock thing.

@debrajray I wouldn't worry so much about confirmation bias, this a short term possibility, the long run proves out changes and their real value.

@sns I’m not worried at all. Some awareness of it is good actually. Anyway I have my core topology now and can now take partial derivatives instead of total. The latter involves too much setup cost. 

Hey @debrajray , no need to explain your keeping the Nautilus 804's.  I still have a pair of N802's and a pair of N803's in my vacation home.  In my opinion, the Nautilus line were the smoothest B/W ever made.  And, at 30 years, with the exception of one midrange driver, they are still going strong.

Well said @fastfreight!  In fact I auditioned the BW D4 series recently before the WWP and still preferred my old Nautilus 804 (certainly to the 804 D4 but also to the 803 D4). I’m envious that you have the old 802s, I remember them sounding beautiful.

I run a Netgear Mesh router.  My modem is connected to the Router with a short 1ft ethernet cable.  My computer (Mac Mini used as a music server),  and my streamer (Linn) are about 20ft from the router and are run wireless.  I have zero issues.