I just listened to Charlie Mariano and Dieter Ilg - Goodbuy Pork Pie Hat. If you ever have the chance listening to this direct to the cutter head mastered record by sommelier du son you may realize what good music means.
Charlie tells us the story of Lester on the sax. He tells the story of all great saxophonists. Also his own.
what a pitty he left us in 2009 |
Great post, Thuchan. I think it is a really good summary. |
Dear Thuchan: ++++ " audiophile nirvana which we all of the AHEE community will never reach .... " ++++
No, I never said that. What I said is that there is an alternative to enrich that today Nirvana you have: lowering system distortions.
I posted two steps that helps about but certainly there are others that we have " walk ".
Now, one important subject is: how can I know that I'm really lowering the system distortions or in the right road?
There are some ways to do it. One of them is:
listen to digital, CD ( redbook ) in a decent/latest CD player. You need to buy titles as these Original Soundtracks:
1492 Conquest of Paradise ( Vangelis ), The Thin Red Line,
Memories of a Geisha and Gladiator. There are more but those is a good point to start.
Listen to those digital recordings and through the time ( working on system up dates. ) as you " accept " in better way ( enjoying really. ) what you are listening as better is your system quality performance and for sure your enjoyment to analog playback.
Digital has its own kind of distortions different from the analog ones and that's why permit and serve as a tool to improve our analog listening.
When an audio system has low distortions even those kind of digital recordings are not only listenable but you can enjoy it easily. Now, you have to enjoy it not only at low or " normal " SPL but at not-normal/high SPL, this is very important to test/experience because at high SPL; you will know about those distortions.
Normally are high distortions the ones that preclude that we can hear ( with out risk. ) the system at high SPL.
If today listening to those recordings is a " torture " for your ears then you have a big big system land to improve.
There are other tools that will serve you to know where you are " seated " in that lower distortion quest. Latter I can post about.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Thuchan/friends: Remember that you are not evaluating digital, you are not evaluating analog, not evaluating those CDs kind of music and not evaluating your ears what you are evaluating is the: SYSTEM QUALITY PERFORMANCE LEVEL.
Please don't try to make comparisons between digital and analog and don't look if digital can performs or not as analog: NO, NO.
Those CDs are only a tool: as an srewdriver to unscrew a screw and that's all.
It is not important that you like that kind of music or that you dislike digital " per se ", please use it only as a tool a " measure " tool to evaluate the system quality performance regarding low or high distortions on it.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
|
Dear Thuchan: Some tracks on those CDs has high content of low mid bass/low bass and are very good to evaluate the system bass management at low and high SPL.
What to look for?: that room/flor shake?, certainly not. What we are looking for is a bass perfomance with: fast transients, short decay time, no overhang, pitch, definition/precision,quality of, natutal color not " organic /bloom ".
We are looking for a firat rate bass management that permit to enjoy that bass frequency range with out " touch " the midrange/high frequency ones, i mean with out lost of midrange/hf transparency but the othet way around: clean, transparent, higher detail and endless dynamics on these frequency range.
Some of the tracks in the Gladiator CD is very good about because combine that kind of bass with full midrange/hf range music. It has very demanding " grooves " where only with top system quality performance can enjoy it and can follow each single mid range/hf notes at each single layer in the " grooves ".
Of course that there are passages where the bass go not only deep but with enough quantity to feel it inside your " bones " but even there the other frequency ranges must be hear it clear with detail and emotionally right.
It is not an easy task for any audio system, always a chllenge that when " you win " the overall rewards are richness than ever.
There are other CDs that are very good tools to evaluate that regards as: The Day After Tomorrow.
Those CDs tool/tests helps to improve room interactions, speakers/subs right position, faults on electronics.
Yes, you have to make changes or confirm that your system is just RIGHT and inproving.
Btw, I'm posting about because you ask for.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Listen to those digital recordings and through the time ( working on system up dates. ) as you " accept " in better way ( enjoying really. ) what you are listening as better is your system quality performance and for sure your enjoyment to analog playback. Better? More enjoyable? Who should be the judge? Me, right? So, that goes back to what I like / prefer ? |
Dear Thekong: +++++ " So, that goes back to what I like / prefer ... " +++++
not exactly, maybe I did not make a good explanation or you don't read it pefectly what I posted because your statement is not what we are looking for. We don't want more of the same because in some ways more of the same were wrong.
What we like it what you like or what I like or prefer is not the main subject but what is right or wrong, it does not matters if we like it or not.
When you attend to listen music ( example a horn player ) maybe you could like what you hear or not but that does not cares to any one.
What you are listening ( I'm not talking here: the kind of music but the instrument sound. ) is the way the instrument " speaks ", it's the self instrument color/voice and you can't do nothing to change it. The player does not ask you if you like it that instrument " voice ", he just play.
Maybe you could like more that hron sound if been less agressive or more smooth or not so bright or with more lush. All these because it's that way you are accustom to for all your audio life is that way that your " ears " prefer the music sound but what you normally are accustom to maybe is not right but wrong maybe it's not the sound of music in a live event at near field listening position.
So, what you like mor prefer is not important. What we are doing is wuestioning if what we heard through each one system is right or wrong against live music.
I posted here:
" if we have to grow up and the first change must be in each one unbiased attitude " +++++
" ++++ along attend as many times you can to hear live music. " ++++
that means no more: " I like or I prefer ", because the main subject has nothing to do with what we prefer because what we prefer is subjective ( and could be way wrong ) and how in true a horn " speaks " is objective: like it or not.
The example is with a horn but is valid with each instrument or at orchestra levels.
With all respect I don't care what you like/prefer or do not or if you want to change it all that's up to you
. I'm only sharing a " road "/alternative to improve each one audio system enjoyment and that's all.
IMHO something that could help to each one of us is how each one of us can enrich the whole subject/idea/alternative more than question it because we can't question it something that we never have the opportunity to experience.
I think is futile/useless to question/argue against something that we are not willing to do/try.
Everyone of us think that we already achieved the audio Nirvana at home and that could be not exactly as that because: do you think that exist thousands kind of Nirvana's?
IMHO exist only one, the right one. I'm still on the quest of it.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Thanks Peter. Coming back to the thread' s topic after we all have mirrored ourselves as poets .
I read EMT is like climbing the Everest? Perhaps....Emt made all their products to make money. Selling in a competitive market....so how to succeed in a competitive BtoB market? Two ways... Low price or innovation/high quality....Emt took the high quality innovative
route in line with their ethics and German culture. So the Emt is good
because it had to be not because they wanted it to be....in the end they
went under because the market changed. Climbing the Everest is not about money nor is it a BtoB market...it is about personal achievement or ego......
All mirrors have two side!
|
Raul, I have Vangelis' 1492 on LP; it absolutely **smokes** the CD version, better bass, more detail, smoother high end, greater extension, obviously more transparent (less distortion). Its does not seem to matter what digital system used, the results are consistent.
I agree that getting rid of distortions is important, but I have found that the ear 'cares' a whole lot more about certain distortions that it does about others. The result of that is, for example, that there are a lot of amps with 'high distortion' that seem to be more transparent, less fatiguing, more lively overall than some amps that seem to have hardly any distortion at all.
The bottom line is understanding what the ear cares about. If that is not understood who knows what the result will sound like? But if you know and honor the ear's hearing rules you are guaranteed to be able to build something that will sound better. |
Dear Atmasphere: The issue is not if lP " smokes " the CD or the other way around. If you hear Gladiator in both formats then you can heard that digital smokes analog but this is not the issue. It is only a tool.
I make emphasis precesily in that was a tool and don't try to compare anything on LP vs CD as you posted because, again, that's not the subject.
In the other side, my experiences with different kind of electronics is that high distortions always are evident when you make comparisons/tests at high SPLs and I made emphasis on this regards too.
No process is perfect and mine on distortions neither.
Yes, the ears cares about distotitons if those ears are true educated on what is right or wrong because if are educated on what you prefer then does not helps on what is the alternative to upgrading that I'm sharing.
You posted the answer: ++++ The bottom line is understanding what the ear cares about +++++"
again, not what is prefered but what is right or wrong. To understand it you have to have the knowledge level, have to be aware of.
Normally we are accustom our ears are accustom to what we prefered more than what is right. Of course some of you already know what is right or wrong but some of us are not aware of that subject and what I'm saying is for the ones that are not aware of.
Now, till this moment I posted some steps that could help to be sure where we are " seate d" and till this moment no one posted something that can enrich the proposal/alternative.
Seems to me that no one is willing to " unglue " of what learned and with this kind of attitude is almost imposible to have a formal discussion that can help to achieve better conclusions or better alternatives to improve what we have.
I gave two steps to improve system distortions: better bass system management and system matched electrical impedances. Till today no one posted that he already achieved it years ago or that started yesterday to do it through system changes and shared his experiences.
So, what's all about?
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Normally when the system set up was made to listen mainly to analog then that's how it performs and when we hear other alternative normally we dislike or the anlog smoke the other one.
Please stop to make that kind of comparison is useless and does not helps to the overall subject.
We are using digital as a tool: I repeat as a tool because its distortions are different from the LP ones and what we are evaluating are the system distortions level.
Why is so dificult to understand it? or is it so bad my explanation that no one can understand it? if yes: end of the subject.
R. |
Raul, may i ask you a favor: smoking your digital somewhere else. This is a thread about turntables. This shouldn`t be so difficult to understand and follow. |
Thuchan, you ever listened to a properly setup Commonwealth 12D3. It's a rare idler beast in and of itself. |
Dear Thuchan: +++++ " But why not describe for me and others in positive words how your brave new audio world looks like and which (positive!) attitudes and habits are necessary for becoming a full member of this rare circle. " ++++
this is what you posted and my posts were a result to your question.
So, now after I gave you my posts/answers ( from your request ): are you telling me " smoke..... because it's about TT?
I think is in some way " dishonest " to ask a person: " pull the triger " and after that " blame " me because I followed your advise/I pull the triger. Are you nuts? what's all about?
I felt your " pull the triger " was a real and sincere action but I can see that you are not trusty and we have to have care not to fall in that kind of trap.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Btw, you are wrong when refered that I'm talking of digital because I did not. Maybe you can'T understand what means: " tool ".
I'm speaking of a tool to improve the analog experience. Is it not what you were asking for?
Why your " surprise " ?
Got it?
R. |
Normally we are accustom our ears are accustom to what we prefered more than what is right. Of course some of you already know what is right or wrong but some of us are not aware of that subject and what I'm saying is for the ones that are not aware of.
Now, till this moment I posted some steps that could help to be sure where we are " seate d" and till this moment no one posted something that can enrich the proposal/alternative.
Seems to me that no one is willing to " unglue " of what learned and with this kind of attitude is almost imposible to have a formal discussion that can help to achieve better conclusions or better alternatives to improve what we have.
I gave two steps to improve system distortions: better bass system management and system matched electrical impedances. Till today no one posted that he already achieved it years ago or that started yesterday to do it through system changes and shared his experiences.
So, what's all about? Raul, if you really did do what you state in the quote above I am proposing to you that it was lost in translation- no such thing by you seems to have been offered, at least none that made sense. Now in your second to last paragraph it sounds like you are talking about something that I did decades ago. Can't be sure though. As far as 'what's its all about?': make it sound as true to the recording as possible. To do that you have to understand human hearing/perceptual rules which are not a matter of taste nor ear training. If you do understand those rules you can make a better, more-like-real-music sounding stereo. |
Raul, though this is a thread about the EMT 927, I will indulge you.
You asked why no one posted how he improved his system or something about listening to live music. I will describe a few of the things that I have done:
About six years ago I wanted to decrease distortion and increase transparency. So I hired an electrician. I bought 45' of JPS Labs IN-Wall AC cable and three high quality Furutech IEC connectors. I gave them to the electrician. He then replaced my three wall AC outlets and ran three lengths of 15' JPS cable from three dedicated 20 amp circuits on my panel through the floor and terminated the other ends in the Furutech connectors. They go to each of my mono amps and to a conditioner to my front end electronics and turntable. There are no outlet connections in my system. The noise floor dropped and I decreased distortion.
Another example is that I was unsatisfied with the isolation supports for my amps and turntable. I ordered three Vibraplanes, preloaded them with custom cut steel ballast plates and properly isolated those components. The result was dramatic. In particular, the bass frequencies were cleaned up and this increased overall clarity, tonal accuracy and balance, and extension and impact. This decreased distortion still further.
I recently made a trip to Vienna to see the State Opera. My host was the Director of Archives for the Wiener Staatsoper. He told me that he wanted me to experience the energy created by the instruments as heard and felt close to the source of sound. I attended three closed rehearsals and sat six feet away from the first violinist and conductor. Four hours a day, for three days. Then, for each of four nights I sat in the Director's box and heard four different operas. You can image the quality of the sound and music in that great hall. And the difference in sound from the orchestra pit to the second balcony, first row center.
When I returned home and listened to my system with the memory of that energy and sound in my brain, I realized that I needed to adjust my cartridge loading, phono gain and volume settings. I also confirmed cartridge alignment. Based on what I heard live in Vienna, I changed my settings which lowered distortion and helped my system sound more like the real instruments.
All of this was in service to what you call "right" or "wrong" with live music in a great hall as the reference. My regular BSO seats are seventh row center.
I hope this is an example of what you mean by someone attempting to lower distortion and listening to actual live music as a reference to improve his system.
The funny thing is, now I "like" my system more. |
Ecir38, I did at the High End Munich show 2012 in connection with the Silbatone Western Electric show. It was very impressing! Maybe a somehow underrated table. |
Dear Peterayer: I have no doubt that what you experienced in Viena listening at near source field live music was the most enlighted, learning and full of enjoyment of any other music experiece you had on your life.
I assumed because I had that kind of full experiences too in several ocasions. This is IMHO the best music reference we can have and a must to live it.
So, you understand very clear what means: low distortions and certainly what's right or wrong and that's al about.
Btw, looking to your system and even that your system place/room is not a big one but due that your magico's 7 inch. drivers are handling a wide frequency spectrum I can tell you that you could be nearer to teh recording and nearer to what you experienced in Viena adding to your system two active subwoofers in full stereo fashion. You will lower distortions as you never imagined. An opinion only.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Raul, Thank you for the suggestion. I did own two JL Audio F110 sub woofers which I bought to integrate with my Magico Mini 2s for exactly the reason you mention. Unfortunately, I tried very hard to have a seamless integration and it never quite sounded right.
I then had a guy with lots of experience try to integrate the two and though some things improved like bass impact and extension, overall clarity, tone and presence did not and we both ultimately preferred the system without the subs. I think the issue is my room with that fireplace between the two speakers.
Regarding distortion in these Magicos, I'm quite pleased with how they sound. I'm sure that in purpose built, dedicated room it could be better. |
Raul, I should add that Alon Wolf of Magico strongly discourages the use of subwoofers. He told me that if I wanted more bass extension, I should just buy a larger Magico speaker instead. These speakers are known for their lack of distortion.
I have heard two of my friends' systems with subwoofers. They each have larger full range speakers, and in their cases, sub woofers did smooth out bass/room issues and increased overall clarity. |
Dear Peterayer: It's normal that the manufacturer advise be that you go for a bigger speaker in his catalogue.
Still today IMHO when we are talking of home stereo system subwoofers perhaps no one knows more than Velodyne. JL are good but not good enough.
In the other side, for integrate a pair of subs in a system the first issue is to know exactly what we are looking for and from my point of view the main targets are not bass impact or extension. We have to have very clear which kind of installation we will do where crossover frequency on the subs and main speakers is critical and it's from here where we can start to " build " the subs integration followed by the room subs position.
Yes, it is not an easy task but if you or the person that help you have the knowledge level then there is no doubt that you can achieve success about.
++++ " seamless integration " ++++, again with the right knowledge level that is IMHO always attainabel.
I took almost a year with my system to achieve that: " seamless integration " .
First decision you have to take on subs is to choose the right subwoofer and IMHO JL was a " wrong " alternative. It's not my opinion but there are facts about, example: for the model 212 JL gives an spec of 6.5% value for its THD at 50hz, this means that at lower frequencies as 20 hz that number can goes over 10% easily.
The Velodyne THD at 20 hz is only 0.5% and there are several reasons for that and one is the Velodyne system acelerator/servo that sense/measure over 15 K times each second the woofer movements to impede not only overload but to mantain inside that 0.5% THD. No not all subs are the same, but the important issue is the knowledge level we have.
If you are trying to add subs with high distortions you can't have success.
Believe or not IMHO the integration of active subwoofers in system with passive speakers is a " new science ".
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
I just got in touch with another wonderful idler, the Pierre Clement. Does anyone have experiences with this quite rare table. Would be fun running it again the EMT 927. |
Perhaps the answer lies with the man behind the machine, Mr. Franz. The 927 is his ultimate expression of the art of music playback. It's no different than Enzo Ferrari's marvelous engines or Ferdinand Porsche's genius. These men gave their creations souls. There are many good engineers but very few Creators who belong to this exalted group and Mr. Franz was one of them.
Thuchan, I agree with your praise of the EMT 927 and that there's nothing out there like it. I love mine, perhaps more than any other table I own except one. EMT isn't the only magical player there are a few others with different but equally exceptional qualities. I found that all these machines bring you closer than anything else to the heart of the performance and the voice of the music. In my collection I have all the top Micros, the Thorens Reference a Goldmund Reference and the rarest beauty, The American Sound. Each and every one of these faboulous tts has the creator's soul yet they sound distinctly different. Its like viewing life from different perspectives. Sorry, I know that my commentary is subjective and emotion based but I don't know of a different way of explaining how these players communicate.
As a dealer I come across many of the new high priced players and aside from a few imo none of them are created. Some are well engineered and many are over priced pieces of junk, either way they're boring and lack the magic! |
Dkarmeli,
Have you heard the new TechDas Airforce One? If so, how would you say it compares to your favorite tabels? |
"Climbing the Everest is not about money nor is it a BtoB market...it is about personal achievement or ego......"
Perhaps, but I am convinced that the EMT is about personal achievement, not ego.
Mr. Franz understood one simple truth; that the job of the platter is not to control the resulting sound, but to provide the turntable's signature. That signature is merely his idea of what the resulting tone should be; it does not define the physics of the machine.
Unfortunately, that simple truth is lost on the vast majority of turntables in the world. Their designers often laud the perceived benefits of flywheel effect at the platter, but I am convinced that Mr. Franz abhorred the notion. I know I do, although I didn't for many years.
It's a lot more than that, though. His machine works as it does because he had a grasp of what its task really was. He was able to see it as an entity, rather than a collection of parts, and he knew what roles to assign each of part, so that it would be in perfect unison with all the others. That is what makes it an entity, and the end result follows logic without any gaps. There are no weak links. Every single aspect of its design can be defended. One cannot say that about most turntables, not even the purported "good" ones.
I suspect that in the end, whether one likes how EMT 927 sounds, or doesn't, depends solely on its maker's idea of what constitutes the proper signature because all the other bases seem to be covered. |
Dear Mosin: ++++ " I suspect that in the end, whether one likes how EMT 927 sounds, or doesn't, depends solely on its maker's idea of what constitutes the proper signature .... " ++++
IMHO if a TT ( including the 927. ) has its " sounds/signature " then is away of netrality, a TT main tragets must be accuracy and neutrality.
No one here speaks about neutrality but how great it " sounds " against other TTs, makes no sense to me.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
You are referring to the 927 used with the 139st phono stage?
Thuchan runs his r80 without the Emt phono so his valid judgement(s) is (are) about the deck vs other decks playing with his various step up and phono combos.
The Emt 139 lacks high end extension and bottom end also vs top end phonos of today, despite this the 139 it is my favourite.
But....to see how deep and high and just how the deck holds these all together another phono is needed. Then you unveil the full potential. This is why I have fitted another arm board to the back of my Emt 927 to taste those potentials.
All fun... |
There must be some reason why it is not made anymore and why no one has exactly copied it. I have never heard one and only ever seen one, but it just looks too much like a DJ turntable, which of course it was. |
Tbg, if you have a close look at the technology, the design and the build quality of the EMT 927 you will discover quickly why it is not made anymore or why no one copied it. I recommend looking at one or even better listening to one if you have the chance.
Dkarmeli agree with your assessment - of course :-) |
Hi Peterayer,
We had the Airforce One in our room at CES. The electronics were all Lamm which I'm intimately familiar with. The cartridges were a ZYX and an Ortofon which I use daily. The only unknown were the Graham arms.
The Airforce One is really a Micro Seiki SX-8000 mk2 at heart with some upgrades? or refinements? or whatever you want to call it. Sonically it was pretty close to the 8000 mk2 but it was still under show conditions and things aren't optimized as should be, so further listening is needed with known tonearms. Airforce One has 3 platter options that affect the sound giving the user further options to tune it to his/her liking. Over all its the best sounding table that I know of made today. Of course nothing is perfect and there are some things about its design that I didn't like and don't understand why the designers made these choices. I'll have more to say when I get mine. |
Tbg, digital killed many turntable manufacturers almost overnight. The 927 wasn't a dj table, it was originally designed for mastering purposes. It was a very expensive no compromise work horse impossible to copy without in depth knowledge of the product and a production facility capable of manufacturing all the various parts that make a 927, just to get the motor is an impossible task today. It doesn't take much to turn a piece of acrylic on a lathe and stick a cheap servo motor on side and connect it together with a rubber band, that's all most record players are today! |
You're right it's not always about money. Products like 927 are personal expressions of self and ego, caring about the audience as much as the object itself. Of course a high degree of competence and knowledge is a prerequisite. The 930 was the money side of things!
PS. You still owe me a visit to your lair Johnathan! |
I'm guilty of not explaining further. The tt is a playback system made up of many different components including setup and dependent on another reproduction chain that includes your listening space; so by definition neutrality is relative and imo not the right adjective. But if you insist, In this relative world, great tts like the EMT 927, Thorens Reference, Micro Seiki 8000, Goldmund Reference, The American Sound and now Airforce One are as neutral as they come. If set up properly in a playback chain of equal quality, sans audiophile tweaks!, you'll never notice any overt characteristics from them. There is no so called Vinyl Sound. No big fat bloated bass, thick midrange, overly sweet highs, or any audiophile attributes that are often the focus here. Basically nothing that stands out and creates a distraction from the music. Instead what you get is the music with its life and soul, energy, majesty or horror as the case may be. Its extremely natural and real, no vinyl or digital sound, no sound, nothing discernible missing or added. Natural or Real is what I would call these wonderful machines instead of neutral.
This Natural is the hardest thing to explain if you've never heard it and even more difficult to achieve. We all know it but we're not always aware of it and tend to ignore it when it comes to things audio. The best way that I used to explain it to my clients was to imagine being across from someone and have a face to face conversation. It could be friendly, passionate with a loved one, adversarial or even boring. Now imagine the same conversation over the phone, Skype, PA system, whatever. The content is the same and many of the emotions are there but the experience is totally totally different. Today we can look at someone through the monitor, feel and express love for them but its just not the same as looking them int the eye while saying the same words or better still, being able to put your arms around that person or their neck as the case may be. Under the right circumstances this Natural/Real experience is what the EMT 927 or the American Sound will give you, more so than any other piece of equipment that I heard and there lies the magic for me. Look somewhere else if your definition of audio nirvana is based on the latest TAS/Stereophile issue. |
Dkarmeli,
When Jonathan informed us on Agon some time ago about the arriving Airforce One I was pretty curious comparing it with my MS SX 8000 II. I saw the New Micro Seiki design at Highend 2012 in Munich the first time and got dissapointed about some functions and the plastique appearance on some parts. In the meantime they have improved it. I had the Graham Phantom which I had mounted also on my Micro. It is a very good arm, nevertheless I prefer 12" or 14" designs with SME headshells.
Some of my friends asked me if I would go for an Airforce? I told them "why should I invest 100 bucks when I can get the same quality and sound for 30 bucks"? - the price you may get a very good MK II in 8/10 condition with matching air base and parts etc. |
Dkarmeli, EMT still exists; why don't they make a new model? I have had 300B amps and sought and bought even 1950's WEs. There is no question that they are better than the 1960s or '70s WE 300Bs. The '88s are junk. Why is this so? I think because the quality makers were still around and QC was still rigorous.
I doubt if any of these are responsible for the EMT 927. |
Unless you really want one there's no reason for you to get it, between your 927 and 8000 you're fully covered. As a dealer I have to get one. The time I spent with it at CES convinced me of its exceptional qualities but I can't draw final conclusions until I have it sitting in my room with its various platters. Their new pump system is superior to the 8000's and will have sonic benefits, how much is to be seen. My reference arm is also the 3012, I even cut my 927 to fit one.
There's nothing cheap or plastic about this table, it has a gorgeous build and IMO a very attractive design. Yes it's not the utilitarian beauty of the others but its still very attractive. My only gripe is that you're limited to two arms and only one long one. It's disappointing at this level. Will keep you posted with more when it arrives. |
Unless you really want one there's no reason for you to get it, between your 927 and 8000 you're fully covered. As a dealer I have to get one. The time I spent with it at CES convinced me of its exceptional qualities but I can't draw final conclusions until I have it sitting in my room with its various platters. Their new pump system is superior to the 8000's and will have sonic benefits, how much is to be seen. My reference arm is also the 3012, I even cut my 927 to fit one.
There's nothing cheap or plastic about this table, it has a gorgeous build and IMO a very attractive design. Yes it's not the utilitarian beauty of the others but its still very attractive. My only gripe is that you're limited to two arms and only one long one. It's disappointing at this level. Will keep you posted with more when it arrives. |
And they don't have manufacturing capabilities to produce something like the 927 or the 930. Manufacturing at that level is a huge undertaking and given today's costs it would be price prohibitive for a minuscule audiophile market. |
Dkarmeli, I'm curious about your analogy regarding the face to face conversation and how it is better in every way than the same conversation over Skype, telephone etc. I agree with this. But you completely lose me when you then write that these rare and favorite turntables of yours, like the EMT 927 and American Sound, offer this kind of "Natural/Real experience". If those turntables in presumably equal quality systems, offer a kind of life-like "Natural/Real experience", then how would you describe an actual live orchestral performance? Surely a live concert is more analogous to the face to face conversation than is any audio system.
I agree with Raul on the issue of neutrality. I prefer a component, especially one like a turntable, to be as neutral (tonally) as possible. I don't want it to impart a signature to the sound.
You write that each of your top turntables sounds "distinctly different" and that the AirForce One can be made to sound different depending on the three different platter materials. Presuming this is the case, which one of your many excellent turntables sounds most "Natural/Real" in your view? And if there is one, than it must follow that the others sound less "Natural/Real". |
We're talking about nuances and perspectives in musicality here, much easier to demonstrate than write about. In the purest sense I would say that the American Sound is the most neutral and Natural. Yes a live concert is the ultimate experience and you'd be surprised how much of that Real experience exists in good recordings and tts like the 927 will bring it to you.
Differences between these tts isn't a matter of coloration but perspective. It's the same as sitting in different locations in a concert hall or club. Your insight and emotional experience will change accordingly. We're not the same and we will relate differently to the same experience. You'll notice that regular concert goers have their favorite seats and will change them at times depending on performance or mood. Try it some time, go to a concert hall visit the same performance, start in the orchestra half way center hall and then move to a side balcony box close to the front and change again to a center balcony box in the same or other floor. You'll have a distinctly different sound and musical experience in each location. Even moving seats in the same box from front to rear changes things. Is any location more neutral or Real? They're all Real just different but you might prefer one location best and that's how I see these tables, different versions of the Real. Airforce One allows further tweaking of your favorite seat. When I lived in NY I used to go to Carnegie Hall on a regular basis, 4 to 6 times a month during the season and I had my favorite seats. My preferred seat was in the orchestra, center hall about 2/3rds from the front. The sound was almost always, sweet and full bodied, glorious like the EMT 927 if you want. My other regular seat was 1st floor balcony, 2nd box stage right and one of the two front seats. The sound was somewhat dry and detailed easy to focus and hear the individual instruments, more Micro Seikish if you want. Same Real but different perspectives. The American Sound somehow gives you both and supposedly with the Airforce you can get one or the other perspective by changing platters. I hope this will help clarify some of the confusing.
david |
Dkarmeli,
I agree on all counts.
By the way, The motor for the EMT 927 was made in-house. A look at it will quickly reveal why it has never been copied. It would be pretty much cost prohibitive these days, not to mention that no turntable manufacturer that I am aware of has the in-house setup to actually do it. However, the Continuum has a motor that was especially built for it by a company in California. I suppose that company could do it, but would a sufficient market exist?
Here is link to a 41 page forum thread about the 927 where one can see the motor, as well as the other parts...
http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=7793.0
Raul,
I have never met anyone who can define neutral, so Dkarmeli's "natural" term is one I find far more appropriate. "Neutral" is probably the very last term that should be used anywhere around the audio hobby! If we knew what it is, everything would sound the same, and that would be so boring. ;) |
A correction.
I misspoke when I said the 927's motor was made in-house. Rather, it was EMT designed, and built from scratch by a vendor. Still, it is an incredible piece of work. |
I came across that thread a little while ago, the energy and the camaraderie there moved me and brought me right here to participate in this thread after years of avoiding audiophile forums like the plague. It was a great feat that he pulled off restoring those tables but I wonder why he really got in the end. This wasn't a straight forward restoration job, so much had to be remanufactured and they could be all over the place with it. The best they could do was follow some of Mr. Franz's footsteps but they don't know his heart and mind, the 927 is way beyond straight forward engineering and the sum of its parts, its ART!
Even if there was a theoretical market for a company to start reproducing the 927, without the creator it will never be right. Take 927 vs 930, on paper outside of scale are almost identical but sonically they're worlds apart. One is a creation and the holy grail of record players while the other is only a great piece of engineering. As an accomplished designer you know exactly what I'm going on about here. |
Mosin,
Jean did a brilliant project when restoring the double deck. In case of the motor it is an over dimesioned design of fully industrial production at a specialized German motor producer. You see similar "guys" in the Studer C37, very heavy and very stable, these units will survive us! When the 927 motor is running and you are going close by with you ear you may hear a typical sound. |
Mosin, How about defining a "neutral" component as one which has "no discernable character of its own". In other words, one that does not add or subtract a sonic signature to the music.
This may be impossible to achieve, but I do think it is a reasonable goal. One way I would describe a turntable that is too fast or two slow is that it is not "neutral". Such a turntable would impart a color on everything it plays. Some would probably say the same about particular drive types and certain build materials.
Now, if one likes having three platter options in order to alter the sound to his/her personal liking, that is fine. But for those who want to hear what is in the grooves without any alteration, it does not seem to be the best approach.
I think neutrality is a worthwhile goal for a designer. Not the only goal perhaps, but one which will meet a demand in the market. And because it is so difficult to achieve, I don't think there is any chance of everything sounding the same. |
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Finding neutrality is like finding the mythical Unicorn. I mean it is more an abstract concept than something real. For example, just listening to live music and moving around the room, concert hall or even outside venue the sound changes. Suppose you could get your favorite singer to stand in your listening room and belt out a tune. It isn't going to be the same thing as the record because the artist's studio sound is completely different from your room. Afterall, our hifi's are supposed to recreate the ambience of the recording. So now suppose you get to stand in the studio while your favorite singer performs. The recording engineer is in an isolated chamber hearing the performance through some studio monitors. (That's how I perceive it; but I have never been to a studio). How much comparison does the recording engineer compare the live voice to his mix down? What if they adjust timber of the singers voice a bit. So at best, neutrality is a comparison between systems or components and becomes a subjective judgment like everything else. |
I see how this works now Everyone-last replies on 8-113, this is how they should have shown up.
1st response, twice by mistake-Thuchan
Tbg- the one after on manufacturing
Petarayer - 3rd one is reply to your comment on neutrality
Mosin - the last reply on 8-15-13 is for you |
