Dear Peterayer: +++++ " SME did spend two years developing the longer version of the V arm. It is not simply a 3" longer arm tube like some other designs. " ++++, the difference in effective mass is only 1gr.
this is what you posted and your answer why is not a good comparison.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Peter: IMHO to be a fair comparison we need to compare: oranges against oranges, the V-12 and V has a different design and IMHO to make a comparison you need a V designed as the V12.
The V12 has only 1gr of difference in EM than the V that's means the build material in the V12 arm wand even the same magnesium has a different thickness or treatment and resonate in different way and not because is a 12 one.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
If it were possible the best tonearm length would probably be no tonearm, or 0 length. Tonearms are necessary evils given the inherently flawed design of vinyl and teh systems needed to play it. Bigger/longer might be OK if done well but is definitely not better. |
The thing is almost every aspect of vinyl record playback is a compromise. I suppose that's what makes it so interesting say compared to digital, there are lots of ways to do it yet no approach is perfect, much less any record being played.
So it is what it is. Long tonearm, shorter tonearm, whatever....it is what it is. WHatever you do there will always be a compromise somewhere. Its part of the vinyl mystique I suppose. |
Mapman, don't assume that digital is better. Remember it is just math that converts 44.1 kHz to 96 kHz. There is rounding error. Every transformation other than in even jumps, is subject to errors just in the math. Converting from USB to SP Dif is subject to errors as are all other conversions. Even magnetic master tapes loose high frequencies with time.
Perhaps when everything is captured in double dsd or 5644.8 kHz, we will get digital right and of course have 10 terabyte drives in raid systems.
This fall I am going to do my 45 rpm reissues to a harddrive in double dsd with RIAA done in digitial. I'm hoping that I can have the wonder of these reissues in a convenient format. |
Tbg,
Of course digital is subject to errors are well and nothing is perfect , but there can be no comparison IMHO either in design or practice between the precision, significance, magnitude or commonality in practice of the errors common or possible with the half century old 33 1/3 vinyl system compared to modern digital.
I still like and often might even prefer a good vinyl recording, but I am not going to delude myself about the inherent flaws and compromises that are involded with playing records, both in theory/on paper and even more so in practice. It often sounds much better than it probably has any right to still, but good sound and accuracy/precision are two separate things. |
I am NOT fond of any digital vs. vinyl spat. I have good gear for listening to both, and because of convenience and availability of material, I listen mostly to digital media at home (exclusively digital in the car and at work). Very little in the way of current issue classical, is available in vinyl, and so much of current issue popular music is actually recorded digitally, so listening to digitally sourced material is, for me, inevitable.
I really love the convenience of a music server and the ability to put together a wide, and unusual program of music for an evening with much less effort. I like being able to scan a large collection of music (so far, I have ripped 3,700 CDs to WAV files), which helps me find long-neglected items in my collection.
Still, when it comes to "showing off" the music that is most stunningly realistic and exciting to hear, it is MOSTLY records I turn to. I have no idea whether there is some, as yet unquantified, and inherent, superiority of vinyl, or if it is a case of better mastering (or deterioration of original masters used for the digital reissue) or any other reason, but, really good vinyl delivers better dynamics and a sense that real bodies producing sound occupy the space in the soundfield. I do find that clicks and pops too often intrude in the playback of classical music, and so I don't do that much listening to classical on records; with all other genres, I find vinyl to more often sound better than the CD issue. High resolution files can sound really good, but, the amount of material issued remains limited. |
Dear mapman: +++++ " the best tonearm length would probably be no tonearm, or 0 length. Tonearms are necessary evils... " ++++++
I can't agree more with you in that statement and it's because that fact that any single tonearm manufacturer have to design thinking at stylus tip cartridge microscopic level than at macro cartridge level or try that the tonearm be the star when as you well said is only an evil and a cartridge's slave.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Tbg/Mapman: This is something I posted/answered time ago in other thread about digital and analog comparison:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I agree, the digital can't approach that type of LP sound. IMHO : Why can't approach it?, because analog/LP is totally faulty.
The analog signal is heavily manipulated, let see it:
when recorded and to be cutted ( LP. ) the signal must be equalized according to the RIAA standard and this means and equalization that goes from 20hz to 20khz +,- 20dbs!!!!!!!this deemphasis means added distortions, phase chnages, non-linear anomalies, added noise, additional stages where the signal have to pass through.
Then the signal is trasfered to vinyl with all imperfections where does not exist a perfect cutting system, here there is several kind of signal loses: certainly what is in the recording was not what was recorded before all that proccess.
When we want to hear the LP in our audio system that analog signal must be recovery through the phono stage for we can attain a flat frequency response ( just like exist ( with out RIAA eq. ) in a digital medium. ) so inside the phono stage that signal pass again for an additional RIAA eq. ( this time an inverse eq. ) with all the heavy degradation: distortions, phase problems, added noise, colorations, etc, etc, etc.
Inside that phono stage the very low output signal must be amplified ( sometimes 10K times!!! ) to a level where the preamp can handle it as it handle in "; natural"; way the digital signal that has a lot higher output level. Through the high gain proccess the signal pass through 3-5 additional stages that continue degrading the signal continue adding more distortions ( of every kind ), nothing of this happen with the digital medium. That very low output signal characteristic makes that the signal be extremely sensitive to be degraded by everykind of " pollulation " ( electrical/magnetic. ) where the higher digital output signal is a lot less suceptible of that kind of degradations.
All those is what happen to an electronics level now we have to add the worst of all the signal manipulation:
a cartridge to " read " the recorded information, a cartridge is a rudimentary " instrument " for say the least. Cartridge designers make some kind of " magic "/tremendous efforts for the cartridge can makes its critical/titanic job.
A cartridge is an " unstable " tool, everything affect its performance: kind of cantilever and cantilever build material, stylus shape and with which kind of quality was builded, room temperature, kind and quality of cartridge suspension, cartridge motor design, cartridge body resonances, cartridge ridiculous pin connectors, etc, etc, each part of the cartridge degraded the original signal with out exception.
After that the cartridge must be mounted in a tonearm for it can ride the LP and one of the first challenges that the signal has to deal with are the " stupid " tonearm wire connectors to the cartridge and then the in ternal tonearm wire and the the additional IC between the tonearm and the phono stage. In all those links the signal continue degrading, this does not happen in the digital alternative: so no signal degradation.
But the worst for the " end " ( sometimes I think the analog medium is: endless of problems. ):
now the stylus tip hit the LP grooves and at microscopic level that stylus tip start a heavy fight against the grooves/its compliance and tracking habilities to stay in the grooves to be in touch always and this happen almost never ( especialy with low compliance cartridges as the LOMC ones. ).
The stylus tip is " jumping " generating distortions and harmonic distortions. All this " fight " is transmited through the cartridge body to the tonearm which start to resonate ( adding distorions, non.linear anomalies, atc, atc. ) according those cartridge self resonances and according the cartridge compliance/tonearm effective mass.
But all the information captured by the cartrdige has not only a doses of tracking distortions becuase non-perfect cartridge tracking habilities but distortions because the stylus tip never coincide with the grooves never coincide on how the grooves were cutted!!!!! not even in a linear tracking tonearms.
Why is that? for several reasons: the LPs comes all with waves and off-center hole that preclude a perfect alignement trhough all the LP tracks. There is no perfect tonearm/cartridge set up it doesw not matters which geometry alignment we choose: Baerwald, Lofgren, Stevenson, etc, etc, in all them there is tracking errors for a pivoted tonearm and that tracking errors means added distortions in the signal path.
Btw and talking of set up there is no perfect cartridge set up_ VTA/SRA/azymuth, overhang/etc, load impedance, load capacitance, etc, etc.
All these parameters all the playback time are changing because all the LP imperfections including different LP weights, excentricity LP " center " hole.
Don't forget the TT speed unaccuracies, speed unstability, rumble, wow&fluter, platter resonances, TT bearing ones, tonearm/TT mount board feedback and of course system SPL feedback that affect every analog rig.
I can go on and on and on with all the " thousands " degradation links where the analog signal must pass but as an example I think is enough.
Gentlemans, IMHO it is a " miracle " that we all after all those kind of degradations we still can enjoy the analog sounds!
+++++ " it was the smoothest, most organic, and 3d sound that ever came out of my speakers... " +++++ ( speaking of LP. )
these and other adjectives that we audiophiles used to use when refering to LP quality performance experiences does not comes in the recording in the original recording , those " characteristics " are a result of the heavy degradation that suffer the analog signal, degradation that does not exist in the digital alternative so that's why both mediums sounds different.
Of course that digital has its own trade-offs, well I prefer it: is truer to the recording.
That we like it the analog alternative does not confirms and does not means in any sense that is right, IMHO is wrong almost dead wrong.
I prefer digital HR ( DVDA: 24/192 ) for music sound reproduction at home because I 'm nearest to the original sound that passed through the recording microphones with lower " artefacts " than in the analog domain.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. " +++++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
and digital is still improving " every day " so the digital future is way promisory against the analog that is almost static.
I'm still on the quest of the very last boundaries on anlaog/LP reproduction and I'm doing by my self ( for many years. ) because the AHEE corruption does not help about but all the way the other side around: the AHEE has not interest that we can achieve the last analog boundary/frontier speaking on quality level performance. Pity, for say the least.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
YEs, no purpose in yet another vinyl versus digital debate. Its pretty well documented already.
Good pure analog recordings are the ones that shine most uniquely on vinyl for me.
Once the recording and mastering process starts to become digital, then the unique strengths of vinyl become lessened.
Nowadays, both good digital and good analog recordings have a lot to offer. The differences between the two seem to become less and less significant the more of a role digital plays in the process overall. |
Digital mastering of vinyl LPs is kind of interesting. I have a few recordings which I bought originally on CD and now also own on 33 1/3 and 45 RPM. In my system, the analog front end gear is of much higher quality than is my CD player. Perhaps for this reason, I prefer the 33 LP to the CD and much prefer the 45 LP to the CD. I have no high rez capability and am sure that I am missing out on good new music.
I guess I'm trying to say that I have prioritized analog playback in my system, and as a result, whether the mastering is digital or analog, the LP sounds better than the CD in the 5-6 cases that I have done a direct comparison.
I still can't answer the original question of this post, because I have never seen, let alone heard, an EMT 927. I would love to someday. |
there can be no comparison IMHO either in design or practice between the precision, significance, magnitude or commonality in practice of the errors common or possible with the half century old 33 1/3 vinyl system compared to modern digital. Analog, like digital, has made strides in the last 3 decades. There is at least one pressing plant (QRP) that can make LPs that have surface noise so low as to easily challenge digital. In the meantime, almost any LP has more bandwidth than almost any CD. IOW there is plenty of comparison (else this particular debate would not have been going on for the last 30 years!). If you want to comment further, let's move it to a different thread. |
"Analog, like digital, has made strides in the last 3 decades."
No doubt.
But how much again to get the equipment capable of it?
Then how many recordings capable of actually demonstrating it?
Then how many people capable of setting it up properly to achieve the results?
Granted, the results can be extraordinary when done right, especially these days on a good modern rig. That's all that matters in the end. |
So why WILL no other turntable beat the EMT 927?
Raul, I have not seen or read anything having anything to do with the "AHEE" in about 30 years. Since you talk about it so often, I am beginning to remember that "HE" stands for "High End", and I think this was something started by Harry Pearson, among others, back in the 70s or 80s. I would ask the group if any one of us has felt pressured by AHEE, ever in any way, to hold certain beliefs about audio. For me, the answer is "no". Indeed, does AHEE as an entity even still exist? Now, we all do know that the makers of very expensive audio equipment do want us to hold certain beliefs that motivate us to buy their equipment. To a great degree, these beliefs are promulgated by the two major publications in the US: TAS and S'phile, and by a few publications originating in Europe including the UK. Perhaps you infer that those publications and the reviewers are influenced by the AHEE behind the scenes. But anyone with half a brain should be able to look past their BS and develop his or her own opinion. Why (Raul) do you say that in essence anyone who is not on the same page with you in all things audio has necessarily been brain-washed by some sinister entity called AHEE? I happen to agree with you on a large fraction of issues, but sometimes we just disagree. Next thing we know, the CIA will be blamed. It's tiresome. |
FYI. I just Googled "AHEE", and there is no organization bearing that acronym in existence. |
Raul, I'm calling bogus on your last post. You idea of EQ is skewed.
Once played back, LP has less phase shift than digital, owing to its superior bandwidth. Phase shift introduced in record is canceled out in playback.
In terms of distortion digital guys don't usually publish the specs on *inharmonic* distortion, which in an intermodulation between the scan frequency and the signal. If they did, analog would look a lot more attractive.
Guys, can we discuss the analog/digital junk somewhere else? We are a country mile off topic. |
Just to summarize my perspective, it wold not surprise me if no other table beats the EMT 927 because the criteria in which such a comparison would be made is totally subjective. There is little quantitative to bank on regarding the ability of one table alone to beat another. There are too many factors that go into top notch vinyl performance....turntable alone is a small part. There are many ways to very good results, though all are technically flawed even if results are most sonically pleasing. SO its a total pot shot in the end regarding what beats what. Good digital will beat bad vinyl and vice versa as well. |
Rauliruegas, if anything is heavily manipulated it is digital with many groups never in the presence of each other, with limiting, with artificial reverb, etc.
The reality is that this discussion is irrelevant to most of us. If we like something that is what decides. Given that much of what makes for better sound is influenced by the talent of the recording engineer, performers, and pressing plant engineers, some recordings are going to be better than others in vinyl or on digital. We see the word, engineers, but the reality they are artists not scientists. As such there are no experts. |
Dear Lewm: AHEE means: Audio High End Establishment, we all belongs to it and we audiophiles are cautive into.
We customers decide almost nothing on which audio item should I buy.
Whom was whom taught to the " high end " audiophiles that MM/MI alternative did not belongs to the " high-end " but only the MC cartridges ( LOMC )?
Whom was whom taught the " high end " audiophiles that tubes electronics is the name of the game?
Whom was whom taught the " high end " audiophiles that SUT's is the way to go?
Whom was whom taught the " High End " audiophile that fix headshell tonearm design is the way to go against the removable headshell tonearm designs?
Whom was whom taught the " high end " audiophile that longer tonearms is the way to go?
Whom was whom taught the " high end " that BD TT were the road to go?
whom was whom taught the " high end " audiophile that subwoofers are for HT and for improve bass weight?
Whom was whom thaught the " high end " audiophile that a high output impedance amplifier ( tube ones. ) performs great with speakers?
Whom was whom taught the " high end " audiophile that SS electronics are cold, analitical and non " musical " ?
Whom was whom taught the " high end " audiophile the analog is way superior to digital?
Whom was whom taught the " high end " audiophile that the important subject is that normal attitude on audiophiles: " it can be colored and non accurate but I like it "?
Whom was whom taught the " high end " audiophile that accuracy, neutrality, measurements are not important but that: " I like it "?
Whom was whom taught..............., etc, etc, etc, etc,.
WHOM WAS?: yes, the AHEE. You decide on audio only what you learned and normally you learned what the AHEE taught to you over the years.
Manufacturers, reviewers, audio distributors, audiophiles, magazines and the like are the ones that created and developed the AHEE and you and me can't do almost nothing to change it to change the AHEE " trend " a " trend " that IMHO goes against a true audio high end music reproduction grow up.
Got it?
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
We customers decide almost nothing on which audio item should I buy. This is bogus and possibly insulting. IME people buy based on the idea that if the manufacturer's, dealer's, distributor's or reviewer's lips are moving, than he is probably lying. IOW, they rely far more on audition and their own ears, not what someone tells them. Audiophiles have been lied to for nearly their entire life ('perfect sound for ever/we make the best'); audition is really the only solution until a particular voice they know gains credibility in their eyes. The Internet has transformed how audiophiles do things, and the 'AHEE' has had to tag along. |
"We customers decide almost nothing on which audio item should I buy."
"Audiophiles have been lied to for nearly their entire life ('perfect sound for ever/we make the best'); audition is really the only solution until a particular voice they know gains credibility in their eyes."
YEp, as the wise sage Billy Joel sang "It's all about Trust".
Everyone decides for themselves what they buy and who they trust, right or wrong. |
Mapman, well, I well remember visiting a physician's home where he showed me a mass of name brand equipment all on display in his living room. After a while, I asked if I could hear it. He said that he didn't have time to get it up and working. Seemingly his system was to impress people with name brands and silently. I had never before run into such a person. So maybe you should say most buy what they hear and like. |
Dear Atmasphere: +++++ " This is bogus and possibly insulting... " ++++
NO it's not, even you learned ( for the good or bad ) through the AHEE and your ears accustomed to what the AHEE taught to you.
Your ears can't decide on what you are not accustom to or don't know.
Please don't post as a manufacturer but as a cautive audiophile of the AHEE.
All what I posted to Lewm is what we learned trhough the AHEE and we " like " to follow that trend even if it's way wrong. I used to follow it too but I learned by my self against what the AHEE taught me.
I was on tubes till I learned, I was on SUTs till I learned, I was on LOMC till I learned, I was on BD TT till I learned, I was..., I was..., and was not the AHEE whom help me to learn about but my self/own " discoveries " and one after other audio subject were I change my mind was a lesson to me: that what the AHEE taught me was way wrong and as I said we audiophiles can't make almost nothing to modify that " corrupted " AHEE trend.
The AHEE was very carefully to hide vital audio information to us audiophiles/customers even today and these misinformation is the worst kind of corruption where we have not a single defense.
I don't want to go deeper on this whole subject because is full of trash.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Raul, I'm an engineer and it is easy to get overwhelmed when considering all of the design issues and technical hurdles involved with music reproduction and begin to think that making any music at all is near impossible. Step back a moment and consider sound reproduction as an art more than an engineering problem. How? Well, the music begins and ends with coils. Transformers is a good name for them because they transform the live music into electrical signals and then back into live music. The process starts with the coils in the microphones and transducers and goes to the coils in the cutting stylus. The vinyl disc is simply a mechanical record of the signals generated by the coils. (The master tapes are a record of the signals from the tape head coils). The phono cartridge coils reproduce these signals from the cutting stylus coils and then goes through the coils in the preamp/amp and finally to the speaker coils. In the whole sound reproduction chain nothing is more important than these coils. Some are mass produced on automated equipment and some are wound by the hands of master craftsman. Many people will tell you that some of the most esoteric gear rely on the art of the master craftsmen winding these coils- large or small. I'm not a EE but I believe the basic audio circuits have been around for decades. The application of new components such as wiring, capacitors, resistors, isolation, etc. make for the modern improvements in audio amplifiers. Circuitry is not nearly as interesting as the design and construction of the coils of wire in the stereo chain. I believe, Raul that it goes back to the basics- the theme that I see oft in your posts- purity of signal through top notch subcomponents, isolation and dampening and a rock solid time base; ie. stable platter speed. Just offering a different perspective here. |
I should have summarized better. What I am saying is that Hifi is much more than a collection of circuit boards populated with components and boxes sitting on a shelf. There is still art and craftsmanship involved in every step of the sound reproduction chain. That will never change and there will always be a segment of the population that will seek that special pleasure out. The EMT 927 and other turntables like it were built by adventurers willing to make the sacrifices and effort: little different from those that would climb Mt. Everest. |
The Internet has transformed how audiophiles do things, and the 'AHEE' has had to tag along. I think Ralph is spot-on with this comment. The average audiophile is so much more informed today because of the multitude of Forums such as this one........that the reviewers themselves have had to become better informed as a result. I can detect this change in the style and content of the writings in all the on-line reviews as well as the big two mags....Stereophile and TAS. The so-called AHEE is now on the back foot as Ralph implies.....and appears more a 'reflection' of current audiophile sentiment rather than a leader of it IMHO? |
The internet forums are part of the AHEE.
R. |
Halcro: Audiophile forums as part of the AHEE tend to help but unfortunatelly not as fast as need it.
Take a look to the last 100 of threads in this forum and see what people ask and read what other persons answered and more important: wich kind of audiophiles ask and answer and which kind of audio systems they own?
It does not matters all those " characteristics " the mature audiophile normally gives answers according what he learned through the AHEE through his audio life, he is not willing to change it self because the AHEE does not permit that he do it. He has no culprit about.
Take a look say to that latest thread on SUTs and you can confirm what I'm posting here.
You and me are an audiophile " by product " of the AHEE that step by step learned and liberated ( in some ways ) of the AHEE trend.
Like it or not the AHEE exist, call you as you want it but is a real " issue ". If you have a better name good, for me is the Audio High End Establishment.
Think a little on this: why exist in some threads a so " hot " posts between audiophiles ( like me ): because in one side are the ones that defend what they learned for years through the AHEE and that are not willing to change and in the other side are audiophiles that finally learned OUTSIDE the AHEE that what they learnend were way wrong. Inside those differences exist an ignorance level on both sides but that ignorance level is not the same.
Halcro: if you or any one taught you that 2 x 2 is 7 and all your life you was sure about what happen when some one tell you that that was wrong that in reality: 2 x 2 is 4!!
Come on the AHEE unfortunatelly still wants that we believe that the Earth is not round but flat/plane!
It's up to any one follow believing that.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
"NO it's not, even you learned ( for the good or bad ) through the AHEE and your ears accustomed to what the AHEE taught to you."
You mean I shouldn't put all my trust in those guys who want to sell me something?
How about just a little here and there?
Seriously, I think there is truth to what Raul says in that the AHEE as referred to certainly have had a lot of influence on audiophiles over the years, but the fact is no two AHEE preach the exact same gospel usually.
SO people still decide who they will trust or not and how much.
There IS learning to be achieved through this process if done with common sense.
Its easy to trust ones ears and one must in the end, but its been well proven and becoming increasingly more widely accepted in teh business world that collaborative environments deliver better informed and more productive participants than those that are closed and that exclude certain viewpoints that might even seem to be frequently way off base. |
Raul,
You sound like you are well informed regarding AHEE untruths.
What are you non-AHEE sources of truth then? I would really like to know! |
Dear Halcro: I posted that we all are cautive and " victims " of the AHEE. Here an example where you were one more of those AHEE " victims ":
DaVinci Grandezza tonearm: you are a proudly owner of this tonearm. What's plain wrong with this design?
IMHO that the designers wanted that the star be the tonearm and not the other way around with the cartridge. In those times maybe they did not have very clear that a tonearm design main and whole target is to fulfill the cartridge needs.
Well, the original design that you own? does not permit azymuth changes according cartridge needs an according LP playback needs.
As you several audiophiles bought it and invest big dollars for it. Whom cares? no one of the owners because almost all were proudly to own that expensive and golden shiny tonearm.
All of us have to pay a very high price to learn outside the AHEE to can grow up in favor of MUSIC playback.
DaVinci manufacturer finally learned and after a while they designed a tonearm with azymuth mechanism and not only that but with a removable headhsell!!!!! when they were against both tonearm characteristics.
I know that like them you learned too but you are still an AHEE " victim " and there are several main and critical audio subjects where you are not willing to change and are " paying " the price listening day by day inferior quality MUSIC playback.
In some ways all of us are still looking the Eart as a flat " land " and we are ( almost ) satisfied with and that's why gentlemans like Atmasphere, you and several other ones still recomend:
" use your ears to decide. What you like it is the way to go " and this Earth flat subject is one of the main problems that the AHEE support any single day and why they support it?:
because mantaining on the ignorance side we the customers they can mantain us cautives and with out problems.
If we are ignorants we just don't ask for more.
What happen with the Timeline? started a " revolution " in the audiophile side. Everyone started almost for the first time if the TT we own was and is achieving the main TT design: speed and speed stability and this sole subject right now is a " problem " for the AHEE.
What if each single audiophile start to ask that the amplifier output impedance must match the speakers impedance curve to buy any amplifier?
what if each one audiophile start to ask no more SUTs in the phono stages to buy it?
what if each one audiophile start to ask for flat surface LP and perfect LP center hole to buy it?
what if....? what if.... ?
Can you figure what could happen inside the AHEE? and outside too?
IMHO that's the audio world where we all belongs.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear mapman: Sources of truth?, it does not exist in formal way. They came from personal research deep research I can say.
Do you asked why almost no one likes ( AHEE ) to talk about distortions ( any kind )? distortions generated inside/outside at each single audio link in the audio system chain.
Distortions = Tabú
I support by some years now that the main quality performance differences in between audio systems are how hig or low are each one audio system distortions.
I support that the main target for any audiophile must be to lower any kind of distortions at any single link in their system chain. Because this means to have a more accurate and neutral audio system people " refuse " to do it because " they like what they listen right now " and don't want to be nearest to the recording.
Even the gentleman that started this thread made/make jokes on me because that " lower distortions " target .
I posted several times that the crucial/critical subject is not what you like or what I like or what people likes but WHAT IS WRONG OR RIGHT.
To accept that and to test it we have to have an UNBIASED attitude in all audio subjects/myths, to want an AHEE LIBERATION!!!!!!! because that AHEE in its today form is what stop the high end grow up!
A lot of creative audio item designers can't develop all that creativity when they already have the knowledge and skills to do it and they did not and don't do it even if they want it because the whole AHEE does not permit it does not leave them FREE!!!!!!
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
I see. Raul, in a nutshell you are making it sound like everyone is nuts (misinformed, whatever) except you. |
"Dear mapman: Sources of truth?, it does not exist in formal way. They came from personal research deep research I can say.
"
Raul, the problem with that is that no man is perfect. WHat if you are wrong or missed something? How would you know? Good science does not happen in a vacuum usually. |
Dear Raul,
Better English is "Who was it who..." Who is in the subjective case. "Whom" is the objective form and cannot be the subject of a sentence. I think in Spanish, "quien" is both subjective and objective. Your error is understandable.
So, if you made up the acronym "AHEE", you might have defined it earlier. (Maybe you did, but I missed it.) For months you have been ranting about AHEE, and I never really knew what you were talking about. I don't think any of my audio beliefs, correct or incorrect, were foisted upon me by some sinister cult power. My ignorance is entirely of my own making. |
Rauliruegas, you sound like you are urging the scientific method and embracing your personal research. Science accepts no "experts" or "authorities." Without substantiations with data from "your research" you have no grounds to stand on. I suspect it is quite desirable to pursue low distortion, but not THD which turned out to be bs. I doubt if we have an adequate and valid measure of distortion of the kind that people say is just awful.
I would have been laughed off the podium had I said, believe what I said as it came from "deep personal research." |
The simple truth is that none of you exist. I am imagining all of this; it's all taking place in my mind, only.
AHEE and "distortions" are Raul's indirect way of saying that the only truth is his truth, painfully arrived at. We can all agree that there is and always was some degree of brainwashing of the public associated with main stream audio. This is called promotion, advertising, salesmanship, etc. The intelligent audiophile learns to accept all that with a grain of salt. Similarly, who would deny that distortion is "bad"? But for our dear friend Raul, these terms mean whatever he says they mean on any given day. I have been trying to engage him in a discussion of the definition of distortion, and how it is that he acquired the unique capacity to perceive it, for quite some time, without success. Ralph put his finger right on it in his last post; he is right; you/we are wrong. This does not upset me or make me angry, once I gave up ever trying to penetrate Raul's thought process. When confronting the Borg, resistance is futile. When confronting Raul, argument is fruitless. I am OK with that......, Really.
I agree with Tbg on distortion, FWIW. |
"When confronting the Borg, resistance is futile. When confronting Raul, argument is fruitless. I am OK with that......, Really."
That's too bad. Raul does share some good information (albeit in fractured English), as do many others. I have yet to find anyone who seems to have cornered the market on audio truths.
Picard resisted the Borg, maybe Raul can too! As well as the AHEE! :^) |
Raul, Lots of arms have azimuth adjustment. Many do not. You say one is a result of the AHEE. How can the other exist if the AHEE is responsible for all? DaVinci, Dertonarm, Durand, Graham, TriPlanar all offer azimuth. SME and others offer some arms with it and some without. Some arms offer no azimuth adjustability. Many headshells are fixed, many are not. How can the AHEE give us so many choices?
Some speakers attempt to eliminate distortion, others do not. Magico/Wilson/Rockport/YG/Focal versus Tannoy/Harbeth/Shindo. And Avant Garde versus Sound Lab/Magnapan etc. etc. Some are extremely efficient, some are extremely inefficient. What myth is the AHEE forcing us to believe with these different speaker types?
Belt drive was forced on us by the AHEE? What about idler, magnetic, and direct drive? How can they give us so many choices.
What about CD versus LP versus High Rez? Again, so many choices.
Honestly, you make is sound as though it is the whole world, the entire high end industry (AHEE) forcing us to buy products against our will and not for our own good. I see lots of choices. But we should not trust our own ears?
You suggest that if we want to listen for ourselves to decide what we like, that act itself is forced on us by the AHEE? Really? If we should not listen for ourselves, should we simply believe what you tell us is correct and lowest in distortion.
I respect someone like you who spends many hours and resources exploring the subject and trying to learn for himself what is right or wrong (or what you prefer or don't). You designed a phonolinepre and toured systems and offered the product for sale. But you do not include yourself in the AHEE.
Now you have developed a new tonearm and will present it at RMAF. Since you are working on the manual, literature and marketing for this product, and you plan to introduce it to the world this Fall, I presume you intend to sell it to the public. Since you developed this and your audio theories through your own research, you must not think of yourself as part of the AHEE.
Dertonarm developed a tonearm design also and seems to have also done it on his own. How is this so different from what you have done? I guess you are not alone as being outside of the AHEE. |
Dear friends: +++++ " To accept that and to test it we have to have an UNBIASED attitude in all audio subjects/myths.... " ++++
that's what I posted and from your answers all of you are biased on what you learned through the AHEE ( Lewm, like it or not what is your audio foundation came from the AHEE and you are happy to follow it. ), so can't accept nothing that goes against it.
Gentlemans if my attitude were the same as yours I never started any audio project I started by my self and like all of you I stayed as a simple AHEE follower.
Btw, I never said ( Peterayer. ) that I'm not an AHEE member what I said is that all of us belong to the AHEE like it or not.
+++ " everyone is nuts (misinformed, whatever) except you. " ++++
I never said that either, I said " some " that's different.
++++ " WHat if you are wrong or missed something? How would you know? " ++++
I agree that no one is perfect and many times I posted exactly that: " maybe I'm wrong but..... " and till today no one took the " flag " and tell me you are wrong because:.......
you are right I can be wrong and is almost impossible not to miss something.
But time always helps to tell us if we are right or wrong and if we missed something. Through the time more than once I had to rectified on " wrong " statements that does not pass the test of time.
Every single statement/experience/discovery/ whatever I share in this and other forums is something that I test it every single day and still do it.
Many gentlemans in this forum and in this thread already made some changes in their audio believes testing and making of them some Raul " discoveries " and when that happen one, two, three, four or five times in different audio subjects/myths then is a confirmation that now if I'm wrong I'm not alone but in the other side can means that I was not wrong.
+++++ " I don't think any of my audio beliefs, correct or incorrect, were foisted upon me by some sinister cult power. My ignorance is entirely of my own making. " ++++
well now result that you don't belong to the audio community in the Earth, where do you come from? from Venus?
I don't think so, like it or not you as any one of us are a " by product of the AHEE that certainly is not a sinister cult power, not at all.
++++ " I suspect it is quite desirable to pursue low distortion, but not THD which turned out to be bs. " ++++
well that is a myth. When you lower the speakers IMD you are lowering too the THD and you can hear it if you are not deaf.
+++ " Without substantiations with data from "your research" you have no grounds to stand on. " ++++
well, that's is not exactly true. The substantations are each one of the gentlemans that some way or the other choosed to experiment withsome audio subjects I suppot and now they decided to follow it.
++++ " AHEE and "distortions" are Raul's indirect way of saying that the only truth is his truth, painfully arrived at.... " ++++
wrong absolutely wrong. Normally we are closed to any different audio subject that could modified in any way what we learned through the years because for each one of us what we learned is the " true " is the " Bible ".
I was not diffrenet from you in this regards but the difference was and is that I questioning if what I learned through the AHEE were true or misinformation because my ignorance level.
I questioning not only the AHEE but my self and each day I do that with my audio " new " discoveries and some AHEE audio subjects that are in doubt.
Everything I posted and shared in this forum is a result of that " questioning " and obviously a result of tests and first hand experiences that till today always were enriched for some of you that like it some of my discoveries.
Gentlemans, please do it a favor and don't question me but start a proccess to questioning what you learned on audio with a simple question: WHAT IF SOME CRITICAL AND IMPORTANT AUDIO INFORMATION I LEARNED IS WRONG TODAY ? What if wrong?
How do you know it's not wrong other than that futile: " I like it " ?
No one is perfect an all of us have an ignorance level that makes that we must learn every single day to improve that ignorance level. Of course that the easy path is to stay where you are to be a simple spectator/onlooker of your audio life instead an actor of it.
Till today with some of you the AHEE was and is the " designer " of your audio life not you.
Good news is that you can change easy that trend when yo decide to do it with an unbiased attitude unbiased from what you learnend questioning what you have and questioning your self.
Gentlemans, do you think that you live an enjoy a perfect audio world? a perfect audio life?
because only if you think that you will continue to question me and not your self and the AHEE.
I think that each one of us have the right to grow up in the right audio direction. To achieve that first you have to find out that road and when you have on hand never come back to that " jail ".
Sop from your point of view you are right and I'm wrong, you are perfect and I'm imperfect, you are " happy " and I'm unhappy,.... why not think the other way around just for fun. Maybe each one of you discover something interesting that could change your future audio life.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Raul, you may have made lots of experiences when testing audio items as nearly we all did. As I learned now you are looking for a kind of retreat not buying any (in your language AHEE or distortion units) new audio gear except of used and unused MMs. I really do understand that someone switches from transistor to tube design and vice versa depending on his system and the other relevant units. In your words you left all these experimental stages and reached audiophile nirvana which we all of the AHEE community will never reach as we live in a distorted, industry & reviewer manipulated environment.
Okay got it.
On the other hand to convince audiophiles having been caught in the cage of distortion and AHEE you should describe what steps are necessary to reach your nirvana or guru level. I can follow your criticism which you constantly pursue (but so far do not share). But why not describe for me and others in positive words how your brave new audio world looks like and which (positive!) attitudes and habits are necessary for becoming a full member of this rare circle.
Pls. don't answer me what I should not (!) do rather than which actions are fundamental for becoming a real undistorted Non-AHEE audiophile.
|
I would have to agree with Raul...
IMO... way to many audiophile people have been burned in the wrong way
Raul please continue.... I see where this is going but you have to get your point across and not look or make people think your the audio god that is perfect...nothing is perfect!
my thoughts on music ..most people don't really know what real music sounds like..this is the first problem hence we have so much BS equipment out there
Lawrence
Fidelity_Forward |
Raul,
I think you are relying a bit too much on superlatives and absolutes in your language and accordingly overestimate the tendency of other educated people to act like sheep and follow the "AHEE". If a study were done, I think you would find many other educated and independent thinking "AHEE" similar to you, with some of the same and some different beliefs and interests. That's a good thing! Glass half full, not totally empty...
There are many "Rauls" out there. Maybe just not using the word "AHEE". |
Dear Mapman: Agree that are many other persons that are thinking and experienced audio subjects " out of the box ", I never said I'm the " only ": not.
My posts about are not exactly to convince any one, it's clear that when people are sticky to " something " only them can be unglued.
What moves me about is to make some conscience that not all what we have what we experienced what we learned and what we belive and are sticky with is right, there are several subjects that are wrong and alternatives " unknowed " for us that helps to improve to rectify what is wrong in favor to be nearest to the recording.
Unfortunatelly in some of those alternatives we have to turn around not only our believes but many times our be-loved electronics or audio items " we like it " and unfortunatelly too we are not prepared yet to do it we don't have the correct attitude to do it.
I know that we have to change in some ways if we have to grow up and the first change must be in each one unbiased attitude because with out it we can't really change.
Why is that?, well many of us are accustom/ears-equalized to those: mid range lush colored sound, smooth highs, non-accurate organic bass and the like.
What could happen when instead of all that kind of sounds that you are accustom to start to hear accurate, neutral, non colored, low distortions performances through your system?
what you will hear is something different from what you are accustom something different for the better where the music you will enjoy and that comes full of " emotions " now will sound not only nearest to the recording but nearest to the live music as never before.
Accurate, neutral, non-colored, low distortions does not means in any way_ cold, analitical, no-emotions and the like: NO, what means is that we can have all what the music it self can make through our senses but with accuracy.
Live music has its own agresiveness and normally has not that " smoothness " you are accustom to or that lushness you " die for ".
As Lharasim posted we have to understand first how live music performs. Try to make an experiment: bring to your place some one that can play a horn/trumpet for you and hear it seated 3 m. from him, listen and try to find that lush or smootness you normally like. You can try wit other instrument and then you will understand all what is wrong in what today we are listening through our audio system.
Many of us think that music " belongs " to the mid range well in a home audio system my take is that music belongs to bass range, as better the system bass management as better the music experience.
It's in this frequency range where IMHO we have to start to inprove. A clear, accurate, neutral bass range puts the right frame for the music where in the other frequency ranges you will hear that transparency/dynamic/power and information that you are unaware right now. Having the right system bass management means lower IMD/THD in your system and you can hear it and when you experienced this for the first time you will be speechless.
As with this action there are many others but IMHO this is the first step.
Yes, I know that many of us think that we already has that right bass management well ask you if can improve it and work there before you buy more cartridges, TTs or tonearms. For we can enjoy at top level all our new audio toys we have to improve that bass management system ( as other things around. ): the cartridge signal is processed through the system.
To achieve that " right " bass management ( with passive system speakers. ) we need to have two self powered subwoofers working in true stereo fashion:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&27&4#27
Secon step could be to match system electronic impedances in the same manner that with a cartridge we look to match it with the right load impedance. That means to match phonolinepreamp output impedance with the amp input impedance and the output amp impedance with the speaker electrical impedance curve. In this last case we need that the output impedance on the amp be/stay very low: 0.05 ohms is desired.
You can follow questioning me but is useless, what can help you could be to try and test/experience those two steps along attend as many times you can to hear live music.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Raul,
Your passion for this subject is in no doubt: you also appear to be able/willing to spend much more time than many of us to develop your ideas and observations.
One day, when you're able, I would like you to provide a summary of your researches - but simply and concisely! Perhaps in bullet-form? I don't know if others would agree, but leaving out the ad hominems and intemperate language would also be very welcome; I think we all know how devoted to this topic you are!
I only ask because, like you, I have a thirst for knowledge, as I'm sure many of us do. I find many of your comments to be challenging, some extremely so. It seems from many of your posts that your position is consistently anti-establishment, and this usually makes for good reading.
At the very least it would be fascinating to hear your manifesto.... |
"Dear Mapman: Agree that are many other persons that are thinking and experienced audio subjects " out of the box ", I never said I'm the " only ": not."
No, but when you talk about AHEE in such broad general terms, it gives the impression that it is an all inclusive club and categorically evil and misinformed.
I would loose the word AHEE all together if I were you and be more specific in who/what is being addressed case by case instead. That avoids grouping those who are educated with good intentions in with those who might be otherwise. Its a good practice and also better from a PR perspective.
Now if in fact you have 100% revolutionary ideas that toally flies in the face of everything anyone already knows about this stuff, then by all means have at and take on the world, but do you really, Raul? Really?
Impressions matter with people, sometimes even more than facts. |
So no one liked my magic coils story? Hmm. A lot of talk going nowhere here. Let me say this: there are hobbyists and there are the real pros and innovators. The ultimate are those who have not just designed and built amplifiers and speakers but have gotten to the level of detail of winding their own transformers for amplifiers, speakers, microphones, phono cartridges, or motors even. Restoration is a labor of love and requires great skill and knowledge- don't get me wrong. I had a buddy in the 80s that was very talented at restoring amplifiers and preamps. He looked for old tube amps to restore that were known to have good quality, good sounding transformers. Maybe that's were I get my coils kick; but even he didn't try to wind transformers himself. Anyway, I want to weigh in here too. I agree that it's easy to grow accustomed to colorations in our sound systems. I get to hear acoustic presentations at our nearby University and they almost sound as good as my stereo. :) I like Blues music but I don't like the overpowering, way overdone bass at live presentations. I definitely do not want to duplicate that at home. I like live orchestra but my system at home cannot duplicate a music hall. So I have to live with that; but I still enjoy classical music at home.
I pretty much put my soldering iron away in the mid-90s and moved away from modifying to acquiring more "high end" equipment. I think I had to spend a lot of money to get beyond the sound of my modified gear. Part of me wants to believe that more $$=more better sound, but my experience over the years has proven otherwise. I'm brainwashed by the great marketing machine like everyone else. If I had the means, I would spend well into the 6 digits on my stereo to both satisfy my ego and get to the ultimate audio experience. As it is, I have learned to do more with what I have to maximize the audio experience. I think most of us as music lovers and hobbyists try to do that. I miss the stereo salons of the 70s-90s. So few around these days. It was always fun to hear the latest gear and walk away smirking at the bogus claims of some salesmen. |
Tonywinsc,
you are describing pretty well how you developed through "your audio career". I guess there are some others among us -maybe not writing posts at all, only reading - who couldn't stand anymore the experimentation process when changing gear or adjusting the system. Some of them gave up or went into smaller audio settings or just decided to be fine on a certain level. But there is a number of audio afficiniados still searching for the holy grail.
It might be also related to the age, the period how long you are working on your system, the abiliy coping with frustration, defeats and new beginnings. I don't think people with real ambition gathering here are walking in a shop, fair or platform buying samples of the most expensive stuff and relax for the rest of their life in front of their system. Those guys enjoy some other hobbies much more and come back to their music system very rarely.
The real HighEnder believes it is helpful building up knowledge, exchanging with friends and discussing on Audiogon e.g. The real Extremist High Ender has strong beliefs what kind of listening approach is adequate and will lead to listening enjoyment. It is not about listening at loud or low level - sometimes a very funny labelling of groups happens usually pointing at the "loud listeners" as the deaf or unknowledgable guys - no, it is more about natural sound, in my universum it comes with a profound bass related (!) to the music, drive but also a kind of airiness. I also prefer a good resolution (not necessarily High Resolution at all times) rather than only mid level frequencies.
I am not sure if someone not having really listened to one's system is able to draw conclusions like "that must sound distorted or not". But we all usually do this when looking at images of other friends' systems. For me the biggest jump forward in developing my listening mode came when I was exchanging ideas and views in situ - which means with experienced guys in my listening room. Of yourse you need to bring along a kind of learning readiness doing so. If you claim you are the biggest boy of all and your system is the greatest achievment on earth you will not suceed with my approach and experiences in the last years.
Nevertheless you may come to the point in one's audio career where not much is going forward anymore. Either you need to implement a complete change like "from transistors to tubes or vice versa" or "from less efficient speakers to very efficient horn speaker systems or vice versa" or from "MM to MC or vice versa" etc. or you are concentrating on room improvements or so called voodo accessories. The field is very wide for spending energy and money, especially in the analogue arena.
Some among us have finally reached at Nirvana or some similar Happiness, being absolutely satisfied with all their successful efforts. Is this the basis or motivation for moving out to the world showing and talking about their joy. Maybe yes! Are they right I don't know? Does it help others - maybe yes or no. Some among us are warning their comrades about the bad influences of the industry, reviewers and some other temporary fashions in the audio world. On top of that some believe in completely different audio philosophies as e.g.Raul seems to do right now.
Is this helpful, yes and no. Yes because we should never believe having reached some level keeps us in a position not listening to critical arguments. No because philosophies of denial and intolerance to others' different approaches (sometimes with personal implications) esablishe no solid bases for a positive audio adventure.
Tonywinsc - the times may have changed. Instead going to dealers looking around at new gear or installations (I know how it was :-) we are visiting audio friends learning from their experiences. It is sometimes a more complex and time consuming activity especially when you are visiting cross-border. I for myself will be in Paris next week listening to a completely newbuild Western Electric 12a installation. Is it for me? I don't know and I do not care about, I certainly will enjoy and learn. |
Dear Mapman: Unfortunatelly all the audio community belongs to that AHEE.
Now, inside the AHEE are great things and bad things, good very good people and other not so good.
Agree, impressions matter with people, sometimes even more than facts.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Mapman and friends: If we take a look around us around each one system and around threads/posts on several internet forums we can confirm that more and more audiophiles are now listening/to take refuge on vintage audio items: TTs, tonearms, cartridges, speakers and even electronics.
Why is that?:
certainly there must be/exist heavy reasons to that kind of behavior other than " vintage nostalgic ".
That's IMHO a fact that is telling to the AHEE that something is wrong with the AHEE historic trend and that something must has to change that audiophile firm trend in favor of what MUSIC playback needs, in favor of what LP playback needs and of course in favor of what all of us audiophiles needs more than simple making $$$$$$$.
I think that that audiophile " silent protest /revolution " is not enough because the AHEE follow with its trend.
I think we have to SHOUT at every single forum/way we have. I think we have to take active actions to really provoque an audio highn end change in favor of the AHEE and its real grow up in the right direction.
How can we SHOUT and be heared?, examples: that all over the world the audiophiles stop to buy any single audio item for one week or one month, to all audiophiles cancel their audio magazines suscrptions, that all audiophiles send an email SHOUTING to all audio forums, etc, etc.
Today, we audiophiles over the world are the ones that mantain that permit to survive any single AHEE member ( the good ones and the ones not so good. ) with our money$$$$ not with their money.
Always is to easy " to play " with other person money but a different history to " play " with our own money. Don't you think?
That's my opinion, which is the one each one of you have on the whole subject? do you want to follow paying for audio items ( any ) that does not fulfill the MUSIC and your real own NEEDS?
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
