Implicit in your question is that the EMT is the best turntable available. I don't think anyone can realistically prove this one way or the other because no one or group of listeners has compared it to all other candidates in the same system with the same arm and cartridge and tone arm cable.
I don't think anyone can answer your question. We can hope, or believe, or think, or wish, but we can not know. It can make for interesting discussion though.
I would like to read how Thuchan describes the sound of this table (as isolated from cartridge, arm, cable) compared to at least two others that he has heard in identical environments. That could get this conversation started. |
Raul, I should add that Alon Wolf of Magico strongly discourages the use of subwoofers. He told me that if I wanted more bass extension, I should just buy a larger Magico speaker instead. These speakers are known for their lack of distortion.
I have heard two of my friends' systems with subwoofers. They each have larger full range speakers, and in their cases, sub woofers did smooth out bass/room issues and increased overall clarity. |
Tbg, That is interesting that you replaced the Halcyonics with the StillPoints. Before doing so, did you try the StillPoints between the turntable and the Halcyonics? Could you please describe how the sound changed?
I met the designer of the StillPoints last weekend at the NYC Audio Show. He indeed explained to my friend and me that the SP are designed to drain internal vibrations down from the component as well as isolate it from structural born vibrations coming from below the component. He also explained to us that his products make the most difference when placed under speakers, then electronics and finally under source components like turntables.
Have you tried placing some StillPoints on the plinth of your turntable, assuming there is room? |
Tbg, Could you please describe the sonic difference between the Halcyonics and the StillPoints? Did you ever try the same turntable on both devices? Thanks. |
Omsed, Do you have a preference for drive type or arm type? I'm curious about which modern top tables you do like.
Have you heard the Dobbins Beat, Wave Kinetics NVS, Rockport direct-drives, Walker, Basis, SME, Continuum, Kronos or TechDas? I'm sure there are others. |
Thanks for your lengthy response, Omsed. You have a lot of experience with tables and arms. I'm still curious. Which of the modern tables do you prefer and why.
Further up the thread in a post you inferred that technology has progressed and that the best of the new tables are better than the best of the older ones. Or am I misunderstanding your post?
This thread is about tables being better or worse than the EMT 927. You seem to think that some modern designs are better. Which ones and why? |
Thuchan, could you clarify your opinion? Are you saying that you believe the EMT 927 is the best turntable jusged by sound quality alone, as you state in your original post, or are you saying that when you factor in the price, it offers the best value like you seem to suggest in your 5/17 post "If you compare sound quality/prices of the oder designs with with the modern designs you will agree with me that an EMT 927 beats them all...."?
I would find it very helpful and I think the thread would benefit from a discussion about the merits and the deficiencies of the 927 compared with the best modern designs as described by those who have a lot of experience with these tables. |
Well, I think Raul points out potential problems with the longer arms and if they are not addressed, then the disadvantages are outweighed by a correctly implemented 9" arm. However, if the effective mass is low enough and the arm and cartridge are properly aligned, then the advantages of the lower tracking distortion of the longer arms can be realized.
Though I'm not sure, I think that longer arms can have the same or lower inertia than shorter arms. It is a function of where the counterweight is located in relation to the pivot. In my specific case, though the effective mass of the V-12 is 1g greater than that of the 9" V, the inertia may be less because the counterweight is considerably closer to the pivot allowing the arm to react quicker.
People who have compared the V to the V-12 have commented that the V is more dynamic and "quicker" sounding. I did not notice this. I did hear a clearer, more detailed and smoother sound with the V-12 though.
Perhaps John Gordon can add some comments about effective mass and inertia. |
I heard a clearly better and more believable presentation with the SME V-12 than I did with the SME V using the same cartridge and cable on the same turntable during a direct comparison over a two week period. In fact, it was not really close.
The effective mass of the V-12 is only 1g more than the V. Inertia may even be less because the counterweight ended up being considerably closer to the pivot on the V-12. The weight of the arm tube and counterweight is greater on the longer arm, so there is more weight on the knife edge bearing, so that may also help drain energy away from the cartridge and into the arm base.
The headshell angle is less on the longer arm, so there is less need for antiskate and I used two Mint LP custom arc protractors for each alignment, so I presume one was not better set up than the other. So it is reasonable to presume some of the better sonics I hear are a result of the lower tracking distortion of the longer arm. To Tony's point, SME did spend two years developing the longer version of the V arm. It is not simply a 3" longer arm tube like some other designs.
My only experience with arms in my system is with three different SME arms, so I can not make a general argument for 12" arms over 9" arms, but the points raised above by both Raul and Lewm do make sense. |
Yes, that is my understanding and I think the lower the inertia, the better. So all else being equal, I would prefer adding more weight to the counterweight and sliding it as close to the pivot as possible. Most people don't consider or think about this because their tonearms don't allow the addition of extra or bigger weights. The SME V-12 does, and it improves performance.
So, no, it is not critical, but in my opinion, if it is an available adjustment on a given tonearm, then it should be considered to improve performance. |
Hello Raul, I know this thread has gone off the original topic of the EMT 927. But in the last few posts the topic has been the differences between 9" and 12" tonearms. How is my experience with the SME V and V-12 not a good comparison? I agree they are different, and I attempt to explain how they are in my post above, but what do you mean by "way different" and "not a good comparison"?
You seem to suggest or, emphatically state, that 9" arms are better than 12' arms. Why is the SME V-12 not relevant to that discussion?
I read your post to Tbg and it does not explain to me why I and many others prefer the V-12 to the V. |
Digital mastering of vinyl LPs is kind of interesting. I have a few recordings which I bought originally on CD and now also own on 33 1/3 and 45 RPM. In my system, the analog front end gear is of much higher quality than is my CD player. Perhaps for this reason, I prefer the 33 LP to the CD and much prefer the 45 LP to the CD. I have no high rez capability and am sure that I am missing out on good new music.
I guess I'm trying to say that I have prioritized analog playback in my system, and as a result, whether the mastering is digital or analog, the LP sounds better than the CD in the 5-6 cases that I have done a direct comparison.
I still can't answer the original question of this post, because I have never seen, let alone heard, an EMT 927. I would love to someday. |
Raul, Lots of arms have azimuth adjustment. Many do not. You say one is a result of the AHEE. How can the other exist if the AHEE is responsible for all? DaVinci, Dertonarm, Durand, Graham, TriPlanar all offer azimuth. SME and others offer some arms with it and some without. Some arms offer no azimuth adjustability. Many headshells are fixed, many are not. How can the AHEE give us so many choices?
Some speakers attempt to eliminate distortion, others do not. Magico/Wilson/Rockport/YG/Focal versus Tannoy/Harbeth/Shindo. And Avant Garde versus Sound Lab/Magnapan etc. etc. Some are extremely efficient, some are extremely inefficient. What myth is the AHEE forcing us to believe with these different speaker types?
Belt drive was forced on us by the AHEE? What about idler, magnetic, and direct drive? How can they give us so many choices.
What about CD versus LP versus High Rez? Again, so many choices.
Honestly, you make is sound as though it is the whole world, the entire high end industry (AHEE) forcing us to buy products against our will and not for our own good. I see lots of choices. But we should not trust our own ears?
You suggest that if we want to listen for ourselves to decide what we like, that act itself is forced on us by the AHEE? Really? If we should not listen for ourselves, should we simply believe what you tell us is correct and lowest in distortion.
I respect someone like you who spends many hours and resources exploring the subject and trying to learn for himself what is right or wrong (or what you prefer or don't). You designed a phonolinepre and toured systems and offered the product for sale. But you do not include yourself in the AHEE.
Now you have developed a new tonearm and will present it at RMAF. Since you are working on the manual, literature and marketing for this product, and you plan to introduce it to the world this Fall, I presume you intend to sell it to the public. Since you developed this and your audio theories through your own research, you must not think of yourself as part of the AHEE.
Dertonarm developed a tonearm design also and seems to have also done it on his own. How is this so different from what you have done? I guess you are not alone as being outside of the AHEE. |
Great post, Thuchan. I think it is a really good summary. |
Raul, though this is a thread about the EMT 927, I will indulge you.
You asked why no one posted how he improved his system or something about listening to live music. I will describe a few of the things that I have done:
About six years ago I wanted to decrease distortion and increase transparency. So I hired an electrician. I bought 45' of JPS Labs IN-Wall AC cable and three high quality Furutech IEC connectors. I gave them to the electrician. He then replaced my three wall AC outlets and ran three lengths of 15' JPS cable from three dedicated 20 amp circuits on my panel through the floor and terminated the other ends in the Furutech connectors. They go to each of my mono amps and to a conditioner to my front end electronics and turntable. There are no outlet connections in my system. The noise floor dropped and I decreased distortion.
Another example is that I was unsatisfied with the isolation supports for my amps and turntable. I ordered three Vibraplanes, preloaded them with custom cut steel ballast plates and properly isolated those components. The result was dramatic. In particular, the bass frequencies were cleaned up and this increased overall clarity, tonal accuracy and balance, and extension and impact. This decreased distortion still further.
I recently made a trip to Vienna to see the State Opera. My host was the Director of Archives for the Wiener Staatsoper. He told me that he wanted me to experience the energy created by the instruments as heard and felt close to the source of sound. I attended three closed rehearsals and sat six feet away from the first violinist and conductor. Four hours a day, for three days. Then, for each of four nights I sat in the Director's box and heard four different operas. You can image the quality of the sound and music in that great hall. And the difference in sound from the orchestra pit to the second balcony, first row center.
When I returned home and listened to my system with the memory of that energy and sound in my brain, I realized that I needed to adjust my cartridge loading, phono gain and volume settings. I also confirmed cartridge alignment. Based on what I heard live in Vienna, I changed my settings which lowered distortion and helped my system sound more like the real instruments.
All of this was in service to what you call "right" or "wrong" with live music in a great hall as the reference. My regular BSO seats are seventh row center.
I hope this is an example of what you mean by someone attempting to lower distortion and listening to actual live music as a reference to improve his system.
The funny thing is, now I "like" my system more. |
Raul, Thank you for the suggestion. I did own two JL Audio F110 sub woofers which I bought to integrate with my Magico Mini 2s for exactly the reason you mention. Unfortunately, I tried very hard to have a seamless integration and it never quite sounded right.
I then had a guy with lots of experience try to integrate the two and though some things improved like bass impact and extension, overall clarity, tone and presence did not and we both ultimately preferred the system without the subs. I think the issue is my room with that fireplace between the two speakers.
Regarding distortion in these Magicos, I'm quite pleased with how they sound. I'm sure that in purpose built, dedicated room it could be better. |
Dkarmeli,
Have you heard the new TechDas Airforce One? If so, how would you say it compares to your favorite tabels? |
Dkarmeli, I'm curious about your analogy regarding the face to face conversation and how it is better in every way than the same conversation over Skype, telephone etc. I agree with this. But you completely lose me when you then write that these rare and favorite turntables of yours, like the EMT 927 and American Sound, offer this kind of "Natural/Real experience". If those turntables in presumably equal quality systems, offer a kind of life-like "Natural/Real experience", then how would you describe an actual live orchestral performance? Surely a live concert is more analogous to the face to face conversation than is any audio system.
I agree with Raul on the issue of neutrality. I prefer a component, especially one like a turntable, to be as neutral (tonally) as possible. I don't want it to impart a signature to the sound.
You write that each of your top turntables sounds "distinctly different" and that the AirForce One can be made to sound different depending on the three different platter materials. Presuming this is the case, which one of your many excellent turntables sounds most "Natural/Real" in your view? And if there is one, than it must follow that the others sound less "Natural/Real". |
Mosin, How about defining a "neutral" component as one which has "no discernable character of its own". In other words, one that does not add or subtract a sonic signature to the music.
This may be impossible to achieve, but I do think it is a reasonable goal. One way I would describe a turntable that is too fast or two slow is that it is not "neutral". Such a turntable would impart a color on everything it plays. Some would probably say the same about particular drive types and certain build materials.
Now, if one likes having three platter options in order to alter the sound to his/her personal liking, that is fine. But for those who want to hear what is in the grooves without any alteration, it does not seem to be the best approach.
I think neutrality is a worthwhile goal for a designer. Not the only goal perhaps, but one which will meet a demand in the market. And because it is so difficult to achieve, I don't think there is any chance of everything sounding the same. |
Raul, I agree with you about the importance of measurements and I'm sure that tt designers use them to develop their products. One well known and enthusiastic member of these forums even advocates auditioning turntables with a Sutherland Timeline strobe in pocket. That way one will know very quickly if a turntable at a dealership (or friend's house) meets one of the essential targets of all turntables.
I also think your description of the analysis of audio components as being both objective and subjective is right on. But I see nothing wrong with someone thinking "I like it". This sounds subjective, but it may also be supported by the notions of accuracy and neutrality. Speaking only for myself, "I like it" when my system improves with changes and sounds more and more like the real thing. Low distortion and speed accuracy certainly contribute to it sounding natural.
Has anyone tested the EMT 927 with a Timeline? |
Mosin, That is a good point about accurate speed versus constant speed. And by doing this check on a stellar vintage turntable, you seem to support Raul's point that analysis should be both objective and subjective. But how do you know from using the Timeline that it is accurate speed or constant speed? Say the turntable speeds up to 33.45 and then slows down to 33.44 at precisely the same point during each revolution. If this is not detected by the strobe sequence of the Timeline, then it would appear to be a slightly fast rotation, but constant speed, while in fact it is not constant because it speeds up and slows down within the period of the strobe. One can imagine all kinds of variations to this.
The point I was trying to make is that to some degree, it is important to measure these things with tools. It does not tell the whole story, but it helps. I think this is what Raul means by analysis being both objective and subjective. I think this is the point that he is also trying to make, but for some reason he continues to be criticized. |
Dkarmeli, I don't own a Timeline, but I do use the KAB strobe to check the speed of my SME 30/12. It is spot on. If it changes due to temperature or belt wear, I can adjust the speed. I have read, and I have been told, that the Timeline is far more accurate than the KAB. I don't know this to be a fact. Of course, the further the wall is away from the Timeline, the more precise the measurement can be.
I did test my old turntable with the KAB and it was fine. It was also fine with the Timeline if the dot reflected on a surface within about 10" of the spindle. But once I set it up so the red dot fell on the wall about 3' away, I could clearly see that the turntable was a bit fast. It had no speed adjustability, so I could not slow it down to precisely 33.333.
Regarding strobes in general, I have seen variations. My KAB disk is slightly warped so it appears as though the speed varies at each rotation at the warp, but the numbers don't drift otherwise, so I think I'm fine. It certainly sounds fine to my ears.
I did try a hand held tachometer once and it was highly inaccurate and I got different readings by 2-5% each time I tested. The KAB is better.
I'm just curious if anyone has tested the EMT 927 with a Timeline. I'm sure it passes the KAB strobe just fine. |
Thuchan, Yes I read your post of 8-20-13 about the Timeline. I guess I did not understand that the "R 80" is the EMT 927. And your speed management is the stock system as supplied with the 927. I did not understand that or the model designations fully. Sorry. That answers the speed question. |
Thuchan your thread started asking the question implying an objective answer but I think the thread is now answering the question based on subjective opinions. Do you feel as though the question in your original post has been answered? |
Thuchan, you started a very interesting thread. |
Dkarmeli, since Thuchan asked why other tables cannot beat the EMT 927 could you list other modern turntables that you like? I have heard Basis Ovation, TW acoustics Blacknight, Brinkmann Balance, SME 30, SME 30/12 and Walker. I bought the SME 30/12.
You also mentioned that the EMT 927 is superior in certain respects. What would you describe its strengths to be and its weaknesses? |
