Dev, the use of the SP Ultra Five on the BMC Arcadias is a problem. The threaded insert into the shafts in the bottom of the speakers are from within the speaker and thus can be forced out by a threaded rod from below. The speakers come with spikes that have a threaded washer that keeps the thread being forced out. Fortunately the converter from 1/4 20 to M8 was insufficiently long to force the threads out.
Long story but my SP Ultra Fives are flush against the bottom of the speakers, which I know is not the best way to have them. There really is no alternative with these speakers.
Presently I have the Bergmann Sindre turntable and sought to get them to try the SP Ultra Fives but being Danish they will not use anything American made. However, the table is far superior on the SP Component Stand with four Ultra Fives mounted on the Component Stand, shockingly so.
I will use the same for the Lenco Reference. I have heard the Lenco Classic, the earlier Nantais Lenco mod versus two other mods and the Nantais was clearly better. I should also say that Jean's unit is cheaper. |
I listened to this table back in the day and purchased a Micro Seiki BL-91 over it. The Micro have better bottom end and detail than the EMT 927. |
Hevac1.
I know the Micro BL-91 very well. You are not seriously believing what you assessed here in comparison with the EMT 927, or are you? |
Dear Thuchan: Why could not be? after all the Hevac1 opinion is not the first one in the thread where the 927 was beated.
Do you think the 927 is a perfect TT?, no way because till today does not exist perfect TTs.
Maybe things are that your system distoritons match very well withb the 927 or that could hide the 927 " failures "/non-perfect performance.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Deus ex machina= distortions.
Regards and enjoy (endless) testing, |
The wording of the proposition is good legal strategy, like "When did you stop beating your wife?" It presupposes a condition (no other turntable can beat the EMT 927) for which we have no evidence except Thuchan's implicit testimony. And it is rather surprising how many of us accepted the proposition as a starting point for discussion. |
Dear Lew, 'The wording of the proposition' is as important in other domains then the legal one. BTW the difference between the attorney can be reduced to your proposition about 'the' propositions in general.
Regards, |
Dear Raul,
I am fascinated by you thoughts, "why can't it be?"
Because when you have the MS BL-91 and the EMT 927 in very good conditions (no cheap buys, no unserved units) and you compare these two tables under the same condition in a good system you will hear it. If not, oh boy... |
Dear Lewn,
I may tell you why so many accepted the proposition. Because I believe many have heard about the capabilities of the EMT 927. Among serious audiophiles there is no doubt that the EMT 927 /R 80 is one of the great designs in turntable history as are e.g. the big Micros
To be honest I couldn' t really believe it until I convinced myself of the sound qualties of this machine.
Indeed the entry level is a huge one, I mean pricewise and finding a well preserved and perfectly running unit. Whenever you have a chance pls. do listen to the EMT. You will beginn to understand... |
Yes to my ears, the system I had and the music I myself listened to at the time the Micro BL-91 sounded better.
I now own a Basis Debut and feel it sounds better than the EMT. The music I listen to now has changed some what but what I like in a system has not.
If we all did not hear differences in sound this would not be a hobby. We would ALL be listening to CD's and digital music because that is what some felt was the BEST at the time and analog would be dead. That was not a Fact either was it. |
Dear Thuchan, I certainly did not mean to doubt your veracity. I was just remarking on how the wording of your original question had a profound effect on the subsequent discussion. Gadget-lover that I am, I would dearly love to see and hear an EMT927 in real life; the quality of its construction is evident merely from photos. (Which is why I would never be without a Leica M3, antique though it may be.) Placing the phono stage right at the base of the tonearm is also ideal; I am thinking of how that could be done with separates in my own system. And I can believe that the EMT tube phono stage may be excellent. (I think you also stipulated that the tube version is a "must".) However, I have trouble believing that the solid state EMT phono stages are still state of the art. If one is auditioning the EMT927 as an entity cum EMT phono stage, then of course the phono stage is going to have a major effect on one's overall opinion, as also for the tonearm(s). The only real valid comparison would be EMT turntable vs other turntable, using same tonearm/cartridge/phono stage/etc. Have you ever done that? |
Dear Lewm,
do understand! You should come to Munich one day to hear the EMT R 80 with the EMT JPA-66. I am running separate phono stages with the EMT R 80. The R-80 has no inbuilt phono pre which is appropriate to my system requirements. I have also heard the inbuild tube pre with an EMT 927 which sounded really good, too.
Yes I compared my tables with the same arm and the same phono stage. This is what I am doing permanently and I love it while others may believe in a one table/phono pre solution.
Your Leica is a beautiful instrument, now you should consider going for a IIId :-) BTW do you know the book of Alessandro Pasi - Leica, Witness to a century, revised edition. big recommendation! |
Hi Thuchan,
You mention the R80, but I am not familiar with that model. Is it essentially an EMT 927 without built-on tonearm and phono stage? Based on what you say, you are the foremost expert on the sound of the 927/R80 and the best person to say it is the best turntable.
IMO, the Leica M3 is the most perfect camera ever made. Everything that came after it is a copy of its basic features but with less quality. I've got three lenses for mine, and I still use it on the odd occasion. I also bought a Sony NEX7, so I could use the Leica M lenses for digital photos. I am not familiar with that particular book, but I will look for it. Thanks. |
Dear Lewm,
the R 80 is the prototype of the EMT 927. about 60 units were built in the 50ies. They differ in their various configurations. EMT decided later to use the inbuilt phono pre for the 927 and also used a light and a brake etc. All this comes not with the R 80. In this way the R 80 is a very puristic 927.
Agree with you on the Leicas despite I am using the Canon 1Ds and the Sony Nex7, too. I think the M6 is not such a bad design :-) |
This is a quite amusing thread. We all place components into our system and think it is better than the last. II get the impression that the 927 is a great sounding machine, and is exceptional at being bold and musical. It could just be the fact that to your ears, nothing else would float your boat in the same way. We all have hearing that is sensitive to specific aspects of sound - ie. imaging, detail, timing or transparency. I was into imaging and detail, but as time goes by it is timing. |
Dear Lewm,
the R 80 is the prototype of the EMT 927. about 60 units were built in the 50ies. They differ in their various configurations. EMT decided later to use the inbuilt phono pre for the 927 and also used a light and a brake etc. All this comes not with the R 80. In this way the R 80 is a very puristic 927.
Agree with you on the Leicas despite I am using the Canon 1Ds and the Sony Nex7, too. |
Dear Hevac1,
of course it is all to our personal preferences. It also depends in which condition you have listened to the 927. I know from friends who had first contcat with the EMT when it was discovered in the garage or picked up in a studio, long time forgotten in a dark corner. For this old idler you need very good service, on the wheel, the bearing oil, the bearing itself, the brake etc. Which plate did you use, the glass platter from Dusch? which tonearm if you can remember? Did you have any shock absorbing frame? |
Dear Lohanimal,
you're right with your description of our learning path. I wouldn't say I have seen (and listened to) all the "big tables" but many have been in my listening room and all had some positive sides and negative aspects. BTW I do love some other fine tables and still keep them but the EMT is the greatist artist among them. Yes, it is timing, focus and much more the ability to transport the dynamics. I don't mean the typical pressure some idlers are very typical of and do impress more by dynamics than by musicality. It is the combination of both you may reach whith a well balanced machine like the EMT 927. |
Thuchan, I'm sure what you said is all true as it is with every turntable. But that was not a qualification in your initial post. |
And the guys with their Thorens say the same thing. And the guys with their Technics SP10. And with their Garrards. The modern tables ALL missed the boat. Yet they come over to a true, modern state of the art table in a cost no object system and walk away shaking their heads.
I could say all I want that my 67 Camaro will take a new Corvette on a twisty road. Or my Boss 302 will take a Viper. But wishing and dreaming does not make it so. Likewise, this thread is full of wishing and dreaming.
Not all super expensive current turntables are great. Many are jokes. Well, most are jokes at the crazy price they ask. But some current great ones really are great, and none of the idlers or belt/idlers are going to touch the very best. True, lots of jokers are making current turntables. Know-nothing experimenters. Audio is unfortunately more full of these guys than ever. They proliferate in the turntable, tonearm, cable, and speaker markets. But, again, the few really good modern turntables are not going to be bettered by the old stuff. |
Omsed, I guess I thought like you until I heard the JN Lenco Classic, not even the Reference that I have coming. |
.....And the guys with their Lencos, and the guys with their Micro-Seikis, .........on and on with the great discoveries of how great the old stuff was. Funny all the best sounding turntable makers who knew the most went out of business. Bad luck I guess.
Definitely the love of these old things with all their moving parts has nothing to do with that they allow the owner to rebuild them and become "one with them", that they are nostalgia inducing, and that they are often unobtainium. Silly of me to wonder that. |
Yes, Tbg, I've only been designing in audio for 30 years, only tested (analytically and listening)about 150 turntables, only designed several dozen audio products, so I bet I would throw away everything I've learned upon having another Lenco!
Funny thing, for even the very worst products I've tested I've had people tell me that they are the absolute best they've ever heard.
If they make you happy, whether they be Lenco, Garrard, Thorens, Technics SP10, or others, fantastic. Pleasure is what it is all about. Even inanimate objects that have no function other than adornment (jewelry grade diamonds for instance) give folks pleasure. But posting that nothing has equaled a Lenco is really over the top.
Cool representation of a gone by era, surely.
Fun to own, definitely.
Emotional attachment after one finds one and fixes it up, unquestionably.
Lots of personal feelings and pheromones running around about it due to the above attachment, certainly.
And, enough noise to mask a lot of detail that the very best modern table and arm easily uncover? Bet your life on it. |
Omsed,
I own a modern high performance table, the Basis Debut V with vacuum clamp and outboard motor control unit, and I like it very much. However, I have also heard Lenco, Garrard and Thorens tables that sound VERY good too,with different strengths and weaknesses vis-a-vis the Debut and other tables. The sound from these tables is very lively, upfront and "present," though they do have more rumble and a less refined sound. You take your pick of compromises with all tables. The closest to a have it all table I have heard is the BIG and EXPENSIVE Audionote table that has three 2 hp motors and three huge power supplies for the motors, plus a speed control unit. The size of the power supplies and the PRICE were non-starters for me. |
Dear Omsed, So I know what you don't like. What DO you like among modern "state of the art" turntables? The breadth of your experience may exceed all of ours combined. I can say I prefer my very highly tweaked Lenco (only the original motor and platter remain from an L75) to a Nottingham Hyperspace and to my Jean Nantais Lenco. Both of those however were far superior to a SOTA Star Sapphire III. I have two other DD turntables that I prefer to my present Lenco, by small increments and for different reasons.
Please share your experience. I don't think your analogy between a 67 Camaro and a new Corvette is at all relevant to the discussion, by the way. |
Omsed, had I your tastes I too might share your opinions. Evidently, however, I don't. I'm not about to get involved with your attempt at one-up-manship, but I have had 14 tt in my 47 years as an audiophile. The last before the Lenco was very modern, the Bergmann SIndre, which was bought because it greatly out-performed everything with which I compared it, including the Shindo.
I know what I hear and know you like what you hear. End of discussion for me. |
Tbg, you may very well have the same opinion if you heard an array of turntables here, moving the same arm and cartridge (not just the same model, the same serial numbers!) in a system where I can demo any number of really great (and using various technologies) speakers and headphones. At the very least it might cause you to think a bit about your position. What part of the country are you in?
But this is not a case of one-up-manship. It's a case of it not being fair to begin with. This is my job 7 days a week. Designing and testing is part of that job. And if I am curious, I but what I am curious about to test different ideas/technologies/execution levels.
What do I like? Goldmund Reference is nice. Linn (pre DC motor) had great speed stability. Basis Inspiration is my cup of tea.
For old stuff, I like the Garrard 301 best. Easy to listen to, cuts out the harshest part of the record. But, there is a price for always sounding rich and easy. That's a coloration that does not allow the deepest levels of detail to come through. It's beautiful, perfect condition, a really cool working antique that reminds me of times I often feel I liked better. But I know what it is and is not. And it is not anywhere near state of the art. Nor are my other antique turntables. But I can admit that and still love them. I find in audio, when someone loves something they usually say "THIS IS BEST". Yes, shouting indicated on purpose.
My goal may be different than most folks. I am looking to get exactly what is on the record. No smoother, no rougher. No more bass, no less bass. My philosophy is that this will result in the most clear sound with the best records. Some will fall on the thinner side, some the thicker side. And the best will shine gloriously.
Part of the goal is that except during testing I do not want to be listening to the components, I want to listen to the music. In my experience, the lower distortion the components, the easier that is to do.
|
Omsed, Do you have a preference for drive type or arm type? I'm curious about which modern top tables you do like.
Have you heard the Dobbins Beat, Wave Kinetics NVS, Rockport direct-drives, Walker, Basis, SME, Continuum, Kronos or TechDas? I'm sure there are others. |
Omsed, kindly enlighten us further and do share what you like and why.
I'm an open minded end user and to date with my own personal first hand ownership of some tables am truly amazed with what they add or not to the music as a whole.
Tbg, your last posting the statements are interesting but at the same time subjective when you suggest one table
"greatly out-performed everything with which I compared it, including the Shindo."
So you are suggesting the Ref JN Lenco is that much better but you don't even actually have it yet. That's confusing, kindly enlighten us further with more details of what you found to be different.
I would think the platter it's self on these specific tables to be an important part of the design offering ...
I have even read JN has been working on a all out assault table which actually includes such but will be too costly for most, in communication with him he is way too busy making money with the Ref tables. More affordable.
When looking at another company it appears that they already offer this different platter.
Do share what knowledge you have gained about these designs in general.
|
Dev, the Nantais Lenco Reference, which I am getting has a 25 pound heavier plinth and several other innovations. I know of people with Classics who are thinking about moving to the Reference.
I know from the use of the SP Ultra Fives under my Tidals that backing off the Ultra Fives sound better backed off a little. Unfortunately, I cannot do that with the BMC Arcadias. Basically the threading is inserted into the shaft drilled into the base of the speakers. Backing off from contact merely pressed the threading further into the speaker. I could put a washer on the bolt but that would keep it from the threading. |
Replying to Peterayer:
Peter: Omsed, Do you have a preference for drive type or arm type? I'm curious about which modern top tables you do like.
Omsed: After extensive comparisons the best sound I have heard is off of a belt drive turntable. However, that does not mean I am stuck on belts. Even with technogies that seem to defy physics a bit, I am all ears and always expecting revolutionary performance, in some regard, for everything I plug in and am ready to listen to. I'm always expecting that the next thing I try will beat my own designs in some regard. That certainly keeps me from adopting the attitude "anything not done here can't be good". That N.I.H. (Not Invented Here) attitude is very prevalent in audio, and I rail against it. So is the "I don't own it so mine blows it away" attitude prevalent.
Peter: Have you heard the Dobbins Beat, Wave Kinetics NVS, Rockport direct-drives, Walker, Basis, SME, Continuum, Kronos or TechDas? I'm sure there are others.
Omsed: No on Dobbins, Yes on Wave K., yes on Rockport, yes on Walker (many times and locations including here), Yes on Basis (many times and locations including here), yes on Continuum, Kronos, and TechDas.
When you say say "I'm sure there are others", certainly over 100 in my own systems. Merrill, VPI (many models), SOTA (all models except Comet), Kuzma (many), Rega (all), Versa (both models), Forsell, Goldmund Reference and Studio, Micro-Seiki (many), Thorens 124, 125, 126, Garrard 301, 401, Linn Valhalla, Linn with Trampolin and Linngo, AR original, AR newer version, Oracle (many), Transrotors, JA Michelle.......now that I've counted that starter list I see it is well over 100, and I have not even gotten into a lot of current brands. But in 3 decades of business it adds up. Arms over 100 also.
One thing I've learned: design TYPE, of any product, (i.e., gimbal bearing, knife-edge bearing, unipivot, belt drive, direct drive) most often tells little about the final performance. It's the design QUALITY and execution QUALITY (sorry for caps, not shouting, but don't know how to italicise) that matter most. The best designers, the best physicists, their minds are usually very open about new or different ideas, and rarely say one way is the absolute best way to do it. It gets me crazy on these forums when folks have to say things like "this is the only way"....", "horns are the only way", "Horns are all bad", "ONLY Vandersteen and Thiel speakers are good (an above dogmatic poster said that in a thread), "only direct drive", "only idler"....."
|
Further to my last post, note that I have not said any one brand is positively best, or any one technology is certainly best. Contrast that to one of the posters, with much less experience than me, who said, in another thread:
"My reaction is that ONLY someone with a well done horn system can truly evaluation many components."
Now read some of the dogmatic statements in this thread again, including the starter. Can you really believe anyone making such posts |
Direct Inner rim drive was our first design, we now have the direct outer rim drive and this design is the most powerful and yes it requires a custom motor like we use.
Yes there is no replacement for torque and direct coupling with a high rpm smooth motor,Larry |
Omsed, Maybe everyone else here knows you, but I don't. If you have as much industry experience as you say, you or your products must be at least moderately well known. Can you identify yourself or your professional affiliation? Thx.
Kiddman, None of us fully agrees with any other one of us, so why be concerned about presumptuous overstatements? |
The open-mindedness is astounding:
ttweights: "Yes there is no replacement for torque and direct coupling"
I guess no further thought required! |
Thanks for your lengthy response, Omsed. You have a lot of experience with tables and arms. I'm still curious. Which of the modern tables do you prefer and why.
Further up the thread in a post you inferred that technology has progressed and that the best of the new tables are better than the best of the older ones. Or am I misunderstanding your post?
This thread is about tables being better or worse than the EMT 927. You seem to think that some modern designs are better. Which ones and why? |
Omsed,
I try to get some better understanding about your position or your preferences as well. You said that "idlers don't impress you anymore" (hope i did not get you wrong here) and you also stated that the Garrard 301 is one of yor likes. As I also believe the Garrard is a good table it lacks some of the qualities of the EMT 927. I did compare both designs (excellent, well serviced units) by using the same SME 3012 (first series) and same carts.
The Goldmund Reference I is also a good table but it does not reach the sound qualities of an EMT 927.
You have heard so many tables. It is fun discussing the different assessments we all have. I realized that many audiophiles praise Lencos or prefer special versions like the Shindo. Honestly while I listened to some good Lencos, also rebuild versions of Oma etc. they all have something and they play music in a very dynamic and soemhow attractive way.
Returning from the EMT I usually miss the balance and the smoothness paired with pressure and strenght of these idler designs. |
This discussion for me has reached its end. It is now just personalities. |
Thucan, we could talk for hours and hours and hours and hours about different tables and their sound with the same arms and cartridges - which is the way I make EVERY comparison. Then you or someone else could say that I did not use the right arm due to synergies of tables/arms (which is a far, far overblown thing). This could spawn more hours and hours and hours of conversations.
In the end, few have tested so many combinations as scientifically (in methodology) as I have. Let's remember, nearly all the tables were in my place, my system.
Additionally, I am looking for, and devising experiments for, the most direct players and arms in terms of getting what is off the record with as little editorialization as possible. Just talking about those experiments would take pages and pages. It would be fantastic fun for me to go through all this. But the time.....the endless posts describing things, just to have some guy with one year of experience in analog having owned 2 tables start debating with me. It's a losing proposition on forums.
I'll tell you my purpose for being here: to have something to do during a coffee break, and to try to point out that it is very hard to say that there is just one correct answer.
Most forums are full of guys who have heard 10 things or fewer (of the component type being discussed) and are declaring an absolute best, a winner, a black and white conclusion. I'm trying to make folks aware that even with many many times the experience, having a strong technical background to understand what is happening technically, having the best test equipment, and devoting a lifetime to it, things are still complex and declaring a single winner is not clear cut. Even declaring a winner on the best drive system is not clear cut. I'm still buying things with different drive technologies to test....looking for some potential advantage to a particular drive technology that I don't really believe in.
A teacher used to say to us "open your mind, something might drop in". I'm here trying to do that.
I know a guy who have never raced cars. Does not follow car racing. He's never excelled at a high amateur level of any type of motor sports competition. But he feels he has a gift for the "feel" of vehicles, so he feels he could be a NASCAR race winner if he got some experience. Now, I feel NASCAR oval racing boring and the skill is not apparent to me. BUT, I know that there is a very high degree of skill needed. It is just not so obvious to me when guys are going "round and round". I know my good friend is deluded.
This is the same way I feel when I see a consumer saying "This is the best (technology, or model, design) ever made" when I know that even with education, design experience at high tech levels, then a career of decades doing this, I can't make such blanket statements. |
Thucan, you said "you also stated that the Garrard 301 is one of yor likes."
Yes, that's true. But when I say "like" it is totally different than my saying something is state of the art. "Like" means I find it pleasant, easy to listen to, does not hurt my ears.
As far as being "great" or "state of the art", it is way, way far away from that. It is missing much too much detail and layering to be anywhere near state of the art. When I put my best turntable in after the Garrard I end up saying "Wow, WHERE did all that depth, detail, layering, low level sonic cues come from?" I find no advantage in any area whatsover (dynamics, drive, stability of tone, actual tonality, decay, attack, convincing of the real event ability) over my best turntable. But it is nice, and I would way rather listen to it than many current turntables.
The very, very best (and that does not mean the very most expensive) turntables have moved forward, but the whole market has not IMO. There are plenty of very poor turntables out there, even costing as much as $10,000 or more, and I would rather listen to the Garrard or SP10 than any of those poor ones. |
Going to try to be bowing out from the forums now guys. I see that they are addictive to me! Wow, it takes a lot of time to try to be clear, and I have my real job, research and design to do.
Try to remember, when you think you know it all start looking for your mistakes! You'll find them. When I run an experiment and results turn out different than my expectations I get more excited than when I'm right. When I'm wrong it is a huge opportunity to delve into the science and experiment to find out just why I'm wrong......and then I'll know a lot more, that = excitement and progress! |
At Munich High End I have listened to the TechDas for the first time many people talk about at the moment. This might be one of the interesting modern designs. It is also compared with the Caliburn/Criterion of Continuum as a high quality phono product. Nevertheless I am not sure what it additionally offers to me in comparison to my Micro SX 8000 II.
If you compare sound quality/ prices of the older designs with the modern designs you will agree with me that an EMT 927 beats them all... :-) |
Omsed,
agree with you on your experience-description. Of course the topic is very complex and it is also a matter of personal preferences.
You're right when stating there are so many modern and rebuilt TTs of over 10.000 out there which are not worth the money at all. Nevertheless these designs sometimes reach a kind of hardcore group defending the product after their shopping tour like following a church curriculum. This is not my philosophy and also not my experience.
What I wanted to express - and of course I am bit provoking - that having seen so many designs I am really surprised of the qualities of the EMT. This is not an assessment of the moment. Much more this table keeps me captured.
A good 301 or Lenco is as nice as I described it. But it doesn't give me the kick - which is also a very personal assessment.
The Forum community comprises many different groups, not everyone has seen so many tables like you and me and we might get tired reading one and one and another thread about "the same modern 10.000 table". As we also need to understand one has to make his own experiences as we all did it is my wish that people start going on their individual "table journey" rather than believing and defending their 10.000 table for the next 40 years. |
Thuchan, thank you for your previously stated opinion. |
Tbg,
do you have a problem, you don't have to participate if you are finished?
thanks |
Thuchan, could you clarify your opinion? Are you saying that you believe the EMT 927 is the best turntable jusged by sound quality alone, as you state in your original post, or are you saying that when you factor in the price, it offers the best value like you seem to suggest in your 5/17 post "If you compare sound quality/prices of the oder designs with with the modern designs you will agree with me that an EMT 927 beats them all...."?
I would find it very helpful and I think the thread would benefit from a discussion about the merits and the deficiencies of the 927 compared with the best modern designs as described by those who have a lot of experience with these tables. |
Peterayer,
I mean by sound quality also in comparison with other idlers like Garrard and Lencos. I know my experience might raise resistance by 301 and Lenco owners like Tbg but why not express one's opinion clearly.
On top of that if you compare prices of the (so called) Top-class TTs like Caliburn or TechDas or some others with a also expensive 927 you will end up with a kind of bargain (not really, is still a lot of money). |
Omsed,
ya for sure these forum's can be addictive :-)
you wrote;
A teacher used to say to us "open your mind, something might drop in". I'm here trying to do that.
REALLY! I don't really see it that way, you seem to be side stepping simple questions put forth to so I'll ask again.
Please do share by providing a list of what you feel are "Great table" along with "State of Art tables" from your own experience.
If you want to add a brief description along with each outlining why would be great also. |
Art Dudley wrote a very good article in the June issue: "Idler days are coming". |
While I like Art Dudley, based on his "attitude" to this hobby and its importance in the grand scheme, I would not choose him as an arbiter of my own thinking or actions in the context of the hobby. He has a decided bias in favor of devices that color the sound to his liking, to include the Shindo electronics, the TD124, his choice of speakers,etc. That's perfectly all right, but it tells me that he and I are dissimilar in our tastes and goals. So, while I am a "Lenco lover", I do not love Lencos exclusively, and I would hardly say that idlers are in the ascendency. |
