Thuchan, I have only once heard an EMT927 and even that was with no comparison to anything else. I love vinyl but find it very inconvenient also. I am soon to get an idler wheel Lenco based tt.
I doubt if the EMT927 has never been surpassed, but hey that is not the issue. I think it could be built today except for the fact that the price would be much greater and perhaps even prohibitive. I know full well that there are better bearings, plinth materials, vibration isolation, platter materials, phono stage designs and parts, etc. What would a current version of the EMT with use of all this new information sound like?
I also know of the Seiko Epson turntable by Mr. Teragaki Takeshi and how revered and sought after it is. Is it the equal of the EMT.
I'm sure you enjoy your EMT 927. I have once turndown one and would not change my mind were I offered another today. |
Ct0517, It is the Reference which I'm getting. I had heard about this, but had not seen a citation of it. |
The reality is once again that there is no consensus on anything in audio. I have a Nantais Lenco Reference on order and will use it with Ikeda 407 tone arm and 9TT cartridge. I have found Jean not pompous but rather justifiably proud of his achievement in elevating greatly the Lenco. Some have said that other Lenco updates are perhaps better, but I doubt it. |
Halcro, I think you are entirely right about structural borne vibrations but turntables have many equally difficult problems all of which rob the music of its magic.
About two years ago I discovered the new StillPoints isolation feet, component stands, and racks. They are intended to absorb the internal vibrations as well as the structural vibrations. They have replace the Halcyonic active isolation platforms that I had used, especially under my turntables. But there are also: speed accuracy, resistance to the impact of the music on the speed, slap echo of ribbons used to drive tables, pulse of ac motors, vibrations through the bearing, etc. Gradually, I have come to the conclusion that the idler wheel turntable, especially the Lenco, have the greatest realism, so I am moving that way.
I think many are selling vinyl short, but no totally optimizing their turntable, arm, cartridges. My new table will also allow me to have two tonearms with one having a mono cartridge. Long ago I realized that while I liked the soundstage of most stereo records, monos often are the most real. |
Peterayer, I had two Halcyonics unit with one under the turntable and one under the amp most of the time. I had thought to buy more Halcyonics but the price got outrageous. Really it was the StillPoints Rack that came along first. When I put everything on the SP Rack it was better than my previous sound. I longed for the possibility to have all Halcyonics but could not afford that. Ultimately the guy who bought my Shindo turntable wanted the Halcyonic unit so I sold both. The second Halcyonic went shortly thereafter.
I did try various feet between the Halcyonic and the Shindo but they did little.
I think Paul is wrong about where the greatest benefits of the SP Ultra SSs or Ultra Fives are. On my amps SP Ultra Five on SP Component stands are just outstanding. Once I got rid of the acrylic shelves on the SP Rack, the Ultra SSs and Ultra Minis are also outstanding. The SP Ultra Fives are outstanding under speakers, but four are needed, not just three. In all cases four are better than three, but you have to keep all four in contact with the component.
Most vertical vibration is turned into horizontal vibration which can nowhere and thus is converted into heat.
No my present turntable is a Bergmann Sindre with no real suspension. It is on SP Ultra Fives which are also mounted on a SP Component stand. Initially, I am just going to put the Nantais Lenco Reference where the Bergman is now. The hundred pound weight of the Reference will mean something other than the Mana Stands glass shelf. |
Peterayer, I compared the SP Rack not the later Ultra SS and Ultra Five feet. The Rack did use the new "technology" of StillPoint but had the liability, since removed, of having acrylic shelves. Again, however I could put everything on the SP Rack but only two components on Halcyonics. The top end was cleaner and quicker and I had, if I recall correctly, more sense of a sound stage.
Only in the case of my amplifier did I do a comparison in this case with the StillPoints component stand with the "technology" in its feet alone under the amp versus the Halcyonics on the Acapella Fondato Silenzio base with their little pucks between the base and the Halcyonics. In this case I thought the SP Component Stand had clearly better base.
The comparison under the turntable was with both on a Reference Mana stand. The Mana stands have points to the floor and below each shelf. It had been my plan to put the turntable on the StillPoints Rack, but I so quickly filled up the six shelves, that I never tried that.
With the turntable I don't remember hearing much difference with my Shindo turntable and as I said the guy who bought the Shindo also bought the Halcyonic on which it was placed.
Overall, I should stress that I only had two Halcyonics units and was able to put everything on either the SP Rack or SP Component Stands. The StillPoints sound had quicker attack and cleaner top end, where the Halcyonic did nothing.
I should also note that since that time, StillPoints technology has added improved technology in the Rack, in the new Ultra feet, and record puck. Overall, this has revealed more detail giving a very nice sound stage precision in knowing where the performers are.
Mike, by no means was the Halcyonic optimized. My listening room is on the second floor. Both Halcyonics units were used on Mana stands as I explained above. |
Ironically, on my old thread, "Halcyonics under my tt. Wow" a guy just today tells of his use of SP Ultras on a Halcyonics. |
Dev, the use of the SP Ultra Five on the BMC Arcadias is a problem. The threaded insert into the shafts in the bottom of the speakers are from within the speaker and thus can be forced out by a threaded rod from below. The speakers come with spikes that have a threaded washer that keeps the thread being forced out. Fortunately the converter from 1/4 20 to M8 was insufficiently long to force the threads out.
Long story but my SP Ultra Fives are flush against the bottom of the speakers, which I know is not the best way to have them. There really is no alternative with these speakers.
Presently I have the Bergmann Sindre turntable and sought to get them to try the SP Ultra Fives but being Danish they will not use anything American made. However, the table is far superior on the SP Component Stand with four Ultra Fives mounted on the Component Stand, shockingly so.
I will use the same for the Lenco Reference. I have heard the Lenco Classic, the earlier Nantais Lenco mod versus two other mods and the Nantais was clearly better. I should also say that Jean's unit is cheaper. |
Thuchan, I'm sure what you said is all true as it is with every turntable. But that was not a qualification in your initial post. |
Omsed, I guess I thought like you until I heard the JN Lenco Classic, not even the Reference that I have coming. |
Omsed, had I your tastes I too might share your opinions. Evidently, however, I don't. I'm not about to get involved with your attempt at one-up-manship, but I have had 14 tt in my 47 years as an audiophile. The last before the Lenco was very modern, the Bergmann SIndre, which was bought because it greatly out-performed everything with which I compared it, including the Shindo.
I know what I hear and know you like what you hear. End of discussion for me. |
Dev, the Nantais Lenco Reference, which I am getting has a 25 pound heavier plinth and several other innovations. I know of people with Classics who are thinking about moving to the Reference.
I know from the use of the SP Ultra Fives under my Tidals that backing off the Ultra Fives sound better backed off a little. Unfortunately, I cannot do that with the BMC Arcadias. Basically the threading is inserted into the shaft drilled into the base of the speakers. Backing off from contact merely pressed the threading further into the speaker. I could put a washer on the bolt but that would keep it from the threading. |
This discussion for me has reached its end. It is now just personalities. |
Thuchan, thank you for your previously stated opinion. |
Mapman, speed constancy while playing music is a major keep. Also major vibration control is essential. I certainly have heard very expensive turntables that were massive and had lots of bling, but sounded pretty poor. I think it is also the case that well conceived linear trackers with no tracking distortion are typically superior. Long tone arms also are superior for this reason. |
Rauliruegas, I have seen the data of tracking error and nevertheless find the Ikeda long arm sounds much better than the short arm. I would prefer a straightline tracking arm and perhaps the pivoting tracking error arms will become more affordable.
Mapman, I think you are ignoring the drag on the speed of the turntable from the stylus on the record that varies with the nature of what is being tracked.
You say that most "good" tables do a good job of spin speed and isolation. I totally disagree. |
Rauliruegas, "From this point of view a long tonearm against a shortest one is in clear disadvantage because can't " respond " to the cartridge tracking movements as fast as the shortest one." I think you are referring to the great mass of the long tonearms. So this is a wrong statement. If you had a short arm with greater mass than a long arm, it would be untrue.
I still maintain that in my experience the same cartridge on the 407 sounds better than on the 345. Since I buy based on what I hear that was enough. |
Mapman, don't assume that digital is better. Remember it is just math that converts 44.1 kHz to 96 kHz. There is rounding error. Every transformation other than in even jumps, is subject to errors just in the math. Converting from USB to SP Dif is subject to errors as are all other conversions. Even magnetic master tapes loose high frequencies with time.
Perhaps when everything is captured in double dsd or 5644.8 kHz, we will get digital right and of course have 10 terabyte drives in raid systems.
This fall I am going to do my 45 rpm reissues to a harddrive in double dsd with RIAA done in digitial. I'm hoping that I can have the wonder of these reissues in a convenient format. |
Rauliruegas, if anything is heavily manipulated it is digital with many groups never in the presence of each other, with limiting, with artificial reverb, etc.
The reality is that this discussion is irrelevant to most of us. If we like something that is what decides. Given that much of what makes for better sound is influenced by the talent of the recording engineer, performers, and pressing plant engineers, some recordings are going to be better than others in vinyl or on digital. We see the word, engineers, but the reality they are artists not scientists. As such there are no experts. |
Mapman, well, I well remember visiting a physician's home where he showed me a mass of name brand equipment all on display in his living room. After a while, I asked if I could hear it. He said that he didn't have time to get it up and working. Seemingly his system was to impress people with name brands and silently. I had never before run into such a person. So maybe you should say most buy what they hear and like. |
Rauliruegas, you sound like you are urging the scientific method and embracing your personal research. Science accepts no "experts" or "authorities." Without substantiations with data from "your research" you have no grounds to stand on. I suspect it is quite desirable to pursue low distortion, but not THD which turned out to be bs. I doubt if we have an adequate and valid measure of distortion of the kind that people say is just awful.
I would have been laughed off the podium had I said, believe what I said as it came from "deep personal research." |
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Halcro, I love your Victor. I have sought one for years. |
There must be some reason why it is not made anymore and why no one has exactly copied it. I have never heard one and only ever seen one, but it just looks too much like a DJ turntable, which of course it was. |
Dkarmeli, EMT still exists; why don't they make a new model? I have had 300B amps and sought and bought even 1950's WEs. There is no question that they are better than the 1960s or '70s WE 300Bs. The '88s are junk. Why is this so? I think because the quality makers were still around and QC was still rigorous.
I doubt if any of these are responsible for the EMT 927. |
Halcro, is TopClass Audio in Hong Kong? |
Halcro, I got in touch with Tommy. He still likes the Victor but says parts just cannot be found. I think I will probably just stick with my Nantais Lenco. Thanks for the information, however. |
I suspect you are talking about speed accuracy relative to the desired rpms, but what about the drag of the stylus in the vinyl groove? |
Lewm, as I understand it, idler-wheel turntables is withstanding the slow ups of dynamic passages. So the EMT has that going for it. But the mass of the platter also helps greatly thanks to inertia. Also the friction of the idler-wheel is important as is its diameter constancy and the trueness of the surface on which the idler-wheel drives.
I once had a Final Audio tt which was solid copper! The platter weighed 285 pounds which is good, of course, but it was string driven with a knot on the string.
I think all of this means that what we hear is what is chiefly important. |
Rauliruegas, I am all for measurements if they measure something of value. As I said in my post above, I am more concern with the stylus drag on the speed of the turntable than whether it is at an accurate 33 1/3 rpm. Often if the torque of the motor is too high it will withstand such drag but oscillate for a while afterwards, which isn't good for the music. I would love to see valid measures of this. |
