Dear Richardkrebs, thanks for sharing. Like the EMT 930 the SP10 were created with a different set of goals from the 927 by their designers. While you might tweak them you can't change their nature. |
Mosin, That association seems to have been fruitful, at least for OMA. Would love to get a chance to hear the Saskia. |
You're right it's not always about money. Products like 927 are personal expressions of self and ego, caring about the audience as much as the object itself. Of course a high degree of competence and knowledge is a prerequisite. The 930 was the money side of things!
PS. You still owe me a visit to your lair Johnathan! |
Perhaps the answer lies with the man behind the machine, Mr. Franz. The 927 is his ultimate expression of the art of music playback. It's no different than Enzo Ferrari's marvelous engines or Ferdinand Porsche's genius. These men gave their creations souls. There are many good engineers but very few Creators who belong to this exalted group and Mr. Franz was one of them.
Thuchan, I agree with your praise of the EMT 927 and that there's nothing out there like it. I love mine, perhaps more than any other table I own except one. EMT isn't the only magical player there are a few others with different but equally exceptional qualities. I found that all these machines bring you closer than anything else to the heart of the performance and the voice of the music. In my collection I have all the top Micros, the Thorens Reference a Goldmund Reference and the rarest beauty, The American Sound. Each and every one of these faboulous tts has the creator's soul yet they sound distinctly different. Its like viewing life from different perspectives. Sorry, I know that my commentary is subjective and emotion based but I don't know of a different way of explaining how these players communicate.
As a dealer I come across many of the new high priced players and aside from a few imo none of them are created. Some are well engineered and many are over priced pieces of junk, either way they're boring and lack the magic! |
Hi Peterayer,
We had the Airforce One in our room at CES. The electronics were all Lamm which I'm intimately familiar with. The cartridges were a ZYX and an Ortofon which I use daily. The only unknown were the Graham arms.
The Airforce One is really a Micro Seiki SX-8000 mk2 at heart with some upgrades? or refinements? or whatever you want to call it. Sonically it was pretty close to the 8000 mk2 but it was still under show conditions and things aren't optimized as should be, so further listening is needed with known tonearms. Airforce One has 3 platter options that affect the sound giving the user further options to tune it to his/her liking. Over all its the best sounding table that I know of made today. Of course nothing is perfect and there are some things about its design that I didn't like and don't understand why the designers made these choices. I'll have more to say when I get mine. |
Tbg, digital killed many turntable manufacturers almost overnight. The 927 wasn't a dj table, it was originally designed for mastering purposes. It was a very expensive no compromise work horse impossible to copy without in depth knowledge of the product and a production facility capable of manufacturing all the various parts that make a 927, just to get the motor is an impossible task today. It doesn't take much to turn a piece of acrylic on a lathe and stick a cheap servo motor on side and connect it together with a rubber band, that's all most record players are today! |
I'm guilty of not explaining further. The tt is a playback system made up of many different components including setup and dependent on another reproduction chain that includes your listening space; so by definition neutrality is relative and imo not the right adjective. But if you insist, In this relative world, great tts like the EMT 927, Thorens Reference, Micro Seiki 8000, Goldmund Reference, The American Sound and now Airforce One are as neutral as they come. If set up properly in a playback chain of equal quality, sans audiophile tweaks!, you'll never notice any overt characteristics from them. There is no so called Vinyl Sound. No big fat bloated bass, thick midrange, overly sweet highs, or any audiophile attributes that are often the focus here. Basically nothing that stands out and creates a distraction from the music. Instead what you get is the music with its life and soul, energy, majesty or horror as the case may be. Its extremely natural and real, no vinyl or digital sound, no sound, nothing discernible missing or added. Natural or Real is what I would call these wonderful machines instead of neutral.
This Natural is the hardest thing to explain if you've never heard it and even more difficult to achieve. We all know it but we're not always aware of it and tend to ignore it when it comes to things audio. The best way that I used to explain it to my clients was to imagine being across from someone and have a face to face conversation. It could be friendly, passionate with a loved one, adversarial or even boring. Now imagine the same conversation over the phone, Skype, PA system, whatever. The content is the same and many of the emotions are there but the experience is totally totally different. Today we can look at someone through the monitor, feel and express love for them but its just not the same as looking them int the eye while saying the same words or better still, being able to put your arms around that person or their neck as the case may be. Under the right circumstances this Natural/Real experience is what the EMT 927 or the American Sound will give you, more so than any other piece of equipment that I heard and there lies the magic for me. Look somewhere else if your definition of audio nirvana is based on the latest TAS/Stereophile issue. |
I see how this works now Everyone-last replies on 8-113, this is how they should have shown up.
1st response, twice by mistake-Thuchan
Tbg- the one after on manufacturing
Petarayer - 3rd one is reply to your comment on neutrality
Mosin - the last reply on 8-15-13 is for you |
Unless you really want one there's no reason for you to get it, between your 927 and 8000 you're fully covered. As a dealer I have to get one. The time I spent with it at CES convinced me of its exceptional qualities but I can't draw final conclusions until I have it sitting in my room with its various platters. Their new pump system is superior to the 8000's and will have sonic benefits, how much is to be seen. My reference arm is also the 3012, I even cut my 927 to fit one.
There's nothing cheap or plastic about this table, it has a gorgeous build and IMO a very attractive design. Yes it's not the utilitarian beauty of the others but its still very attractive. My only gripe is that you're limited to two arms and only one long one. It's disappointing at this level. Will keep you posted with more when it arrives. |
Unless you really want one there's no reason for you to get it, between your 927 and 8000 you're fully covered. As a dealer I have to get one. The time I spent with it at CES convinced me of its exceptional qualities but I can't draw final conclusions until I have it sitting in my room with its various platters. Their new pump system is superior to the 8000's and will have sonic benefits, how much is to be seen. My reference arm is also the 3012, I even cut my 927 to fit one.
There's nothing cheap or plastic about this table, it has a gorgeous build and IMO a very attractive design. Yes it's not the utilitarian beauty of the others but its still very attractive. My only gripe is that you're limited to two arms and only one long one. It's disappointing at this level. Will keep you posted with more when it arrives. |
And they don't have manufacturing capabilities to produce something like the 927 or the 930. Manufacturing at that level is a huge undertaking and given today's costs it would be price prohibitive for a minuscule audiophile market. |
We're talking about nuances and perspectives in musicality here, much easier to demonstrate than write about. In the purest sense I would say that the American Sound is the most neutral and Natural. Yes a live concert is the ultimate experience and you'd be surprised how much of that Real experience exists in good recordings and tts like the 927 will bring it to you.
Differences between these tts isn't a matter of coloration but perspective. It's the same as sitting in different locations in a concert hall or club. Your insight and emotional experience will change accordingly. We're not the same and we will relate differently to the same experience. You'll notice that regular concert goers have their favorite seats and will change them at times depending on performance or mood. Try it some time, go to a concert hall visit the same performance, start in the orchestra half way center hall and then move to a side balcony box close to the front and change again to a center balcony box in the same or other floor. You'll have a distinctly different sound and musical experience in each location. Even moving seats in the same box from front to rear changes things. Is any location more neutral or Real? They're all Real just different but you might prefer one location best and that's how I see these tables, different versions of the Real. Airforce One allows further tweaking of your favorite seat. When I lived in NY I used to go to Carnegie Hall on a regular basis, 4 to 6 times a month during the season and I had my favorite seats. My preferred seat was in the orchestra, center hall about 2/3rds from the front. The sound was almost always, sweet and full bodied, glorious like the EMT 927 if you want. My other regular seat was 1st floor balcony, 2nd box stage right and one of the two front seats. The sound was somewhat dry and detailed easy to focus and hear the individual instruments, more Micro Seikish if you want. Same Real but different perspectives. The American Sound somehow gives you both and supposedly with the Airforce you can get one or the other perspective by changing platters. I hope this will help clarify some of the confusing.
david |
I came across that thread a little while ago, the energy and the camaraderie there moved me and brought me right here to participate in this thread after years of avoiding audiophile forums like the plague. It was a great feat that he pulled off restoring those tables but I wonder why he really got in the end. This wasn't a straight forward restoration job, so much had to be remanufactured and they could be all over the place with it. The best they could do was follow some of Mr. Franz's footsteps but they don't know his heart and mind, the 927 is way beyond straight forward engineering and the sum of its parts, its ART!
Even if there was a theoretical market for a company to start reproducing the 927, without the creator it will never be right. Take 927 vs 930, on paper outside of scale are almost identical but sonically they're worlds apart. One is a creation and the holy grail of record players while the other is only a great piece of engineering. As an accomplished designer you know exactly what I'm going on about here. |
Dear Rauliruegas, Thuchan's thread started with a question about a quality that can't be measured and his emotional reaction to the EMT 927, so yes its all subjective. You bring up a few different points and I want to break it up and answer you to the best of my ability.
1- What we have here with the 927, American Sound and others isn't something that you can capture, put in a bottle and sell, it goes way beyond measurements. This is a musical interment designed and fabricated by someone who was an artist and an engineer. What is it makes a Stradivari or a Guarneri so special. If you see theses instruments up close, there's nothing special looking about them. They're dull and utilitarian yet they have a magic that no one's been able to explain, measure or reproduce. You can hear it and you'll feel inside you, its there and its real but how do you qualify or measure it if not subjectively? This is exactly what you have with a 927. The EMT 930 is a fantastic turntable and a near exact smaller copy of the 927 but it doesn't share that special quality that we're trying to define with words here. This isn't BS or illusionary its there and its beyond the norm.
2- Measurements are important but in this and they play a part for sure but they can't explain things. A HT subwoofer might measure down to 16hz or lower but is it the same 16hz that you get from a great pipe organ? They'll measure the same but subjectively different!
You mention the SP10MK3, wonderful table, very good sound specially with the heavy obsidian. It measures great too but at the end of the day it lacked that special something that makes the others great. Mosin briefly discussed EMT's motor and I'm sure that its part of the overall recipe as is SP10's motor. That speed stability of 0.0001% you is achieved by its motor, which is part of why I don't care much for the SP10. They achieved that fantastic figure with a servo controlled motor, what that means is that the speed of the platter is continuously monitored and adjusted. This constant tweaking creates certain sonic artifacts that don't occur with an inertia driven system and a non-servo motor, where the platter spins continuously and seamlessly. Granted the SP10 was one of the best of its kind with less noticeable artifacts than the ordinary servo controlled motors but they're still there. So this fantastic measurement which on the one hand tells a story of greatness also creates some of the major shortcomings of the table. My point here is that the measurements serve a purpose but at the end of the day my subjective experience is the final determining factor for me.
3- "Engeneering must be reflected on accuracy characteristics against what is in the market, especially when we are saying that the 927 is the " holly grail ". Maybe you can put some " light " about."
The quality engineering is all there and that's only part of the story. The character at work here is extremely rare you can't just quantify it and measure it when there no comps. The best I can do is to invite you for a listen.
4- "Natural from your point of view and your examples posted is more a subjective parameter that means it's not neutral but only diferent with different colorations/distortions."
No, I never said anything about colorations and distortions, Natural means just that. Its a sense of realism portrayed these tables. As a matter of fact its exactly the opposite. There's no overriding tonal character here, every recording and performance sounds distinctly different. The only constant is reality. Real person, real instrument, real performance. I don't hear additions or omissions of character but that's always subjective too. We have no way of knowing what is in those grooves, only what I hear sounds and FEELS real and its different from disc to disc.
5-" I never had the opportunity to heard the 170 kg. American Sound TT that's a different kind of design including its drive mechanism but I heard the Final Paruthenomn( 140 kg. ) that was an assualt to the state of the art on TT."
The Parthenon was an assault but didn't get all the way there, too many gimmicks. Its not only mass here, The American Sound Table is a minimalist design, a purists dream. There's nothing extra here, every element serves a purpose. Its brutally simple and I think that's why i think it sounds the way it does. |
Dear Rauliruegas, "Subject is that we must have measurements of the 927 as a reference independent of that: " I like it " + "Subject is that we must have measurements of the 927 as a reference independent of that: " I like it ", IMHO we have to know: what are we hearing with those today tipical measurements/facts?." +I asked to Dkarmeli. If we are saying that the 927 is the holy grail: where are those facts that could prove with out doubt is in reality the hoily grail?
The conversation isn't about me liking it or not, I'm just another audiophile, with access to one who can confirm what others have heard and known long before I came along. The EMT 927 is a PROVEN REFERENCE and the Holy Grail without my liking it. There's years of history and track record and not only from the audiophiles but from the best recording engineers, top recording labels and mastering labs, from people who had access to best master tapes and knew recordings with access to everything under the sun and did it for living. It was always THE industry standard and holy grail from day one to the last day that they were made and that's nothing to do with my opinion of it. It was, is and will always be unique. Thank you Mr. Franz!
- "I heard several times the 930 and other TT EMT models in systems that I know very well and other that was my first time with. I'm not impressed for it in a different way that hearing other top TTs."
EMT wasn't concerned with the audiophiles, they built industrial grade professional equipment of the highest order. The 930 had a very different set of design parameters to the 927 or high end consumer tables you're thinking of. It wasn't a mastering reference it was a dj table with market specific qualities and wasn't all about sound. It delivered what that market wanted 24/7 in spades, that's why they dominated that market until cheaper Japanese dd tables arrived. They did the same job for a fraction of the price, and again sound quality was't the main criteria. If you really want to know the 930 stick any of those top tt's in the same environment and then compare them. They use to stick the 930s in a van and drive around cobblestone streets playing music. Repairs in the field, swap out cartridges on the fly, and get abused by all kinds of users and still sound pretty good, which high end consumer tt you know of is capable of that? EMT engineers accomplished what they set out to do with everything they designed. They had very clear parameters that they adhered to.
- "Dkarmeli, posted examples of that " natural " sound and reality when we are seated in different places in a music hall but that IMHO we can't take in count because what comes in the LP grooves was recorded for microphones that was in a very different position that when we attend to a concerto. Those microphones are really near to the source and the direct sound is the one that prevail when at our seat position the reflected sound has a main influence in what we are hearing."
I used that analogy as an example of how different tables could all be right yet different at the same time. Its a matter of differing perspectives for the same reality and nothing specific to any recording or table. FYI what you hear on the finished LP is the mastering and production engineers perspective and not the microphones and their location.
- "About the Final TT I know an Agoner whom own it and I can tell you that maybe he does not agree with that: " too many gimmicks"
The principle behind the Parthenon 2025 was resonance control, they tried to do this with mixing copper and aluminum in the platter, the inverted bearing and the ridiculous ball bearing in the tonearm base and the wooden platform. Of course it was a high mass design common in Japan and was a pretty decent sounding table but compared to the Continuum which its design is also predicated on resonance control the Final is only a high school science project. And this is purely scientific fact and not anyone's subjective opinion.
- "Now, IMHO nothing in audio ( including the 927 ) is a rocket science that can't be duplicated. If, for example, I'm a TT designer ( that I'm not. ) that wants to put on the market the real ultimate TT I can asure you that I will analize every single today/vintage top TT not only to duplicate its performance but to improve over it. Maybe no one thinked that the 927 is the one to beat ( price no object. ). Could you think that in China, Japan, Korea, etc, etc can't be duplicated? I think this is not the subject."
The great stuff is a lot more than rocket science, its art of highest order and only the artist knows how to achieve what he created, you can't copy that if you're not on that level and the ones who are capable wont copy, they'll also create. Ask Mosin who's also and accomplished designer and creator, he can explain it better than I can.
-++++ " my subjective experience is the final determining factor for me. " ++++
What's strange about that? I know enough to know what I like. My most treasured cartridge is a 60s vintage SPU with a crooked cantilever that came mounted for free with a 301 that I bought off ebay for parts, imagine that. |
Dear Dover, "From my listening experiences neither of these DD's would compete with the top Micro Seiki's that I have heard in the areas of musical flow and coherence."
You don't need top MS tables for that the basic RX-1500 is already superior to these tables in those areas. Then again Micro Seiki's track record speaks for itself. |
Dear Mosin, I'm assuming that you're talking about Denon's broadcast models. I had a DP-100M which unfortunately went missing on the way to one of the shows. You're correct about the Denons, they don't suffer from the servo artifacts and are extremely accurate and musical but it was closed system so all my listening included Denon's arm. I heard good things about the DP-308 but never came across one.
In the world of mass market consumer products Denon is quite unique in their ability of making very musically satisfying products even in their budget range. |
Dear Rauliruegas, obviously you have your way of looking at things audio which is quite different than mine. My equipment bias is purely subjective based on years of hands on experience and that's what I can offer. If you paid me I wouldn't sit in a roomful of audiophiles listening to gladiator, vangelis or any other audiophile paraphernalia du jour comparing analog vs digital but you enjoy that and find it meaningful and conclusive.
The net is full of background information on EMT and testimony from very knowledgeable professionals and hobbyist alike, if that's not enough and you don't find any of them credible this conversation is a waste of our times.
All Huber did was change the chassis of his equipment and jack up the
prices he never changed what goes into the box, its still the same circuit
designs.
I know many engineers who disagree with you including Mosin here. Solid engineering is the foundation the rest of creation is all art. Check his website out, if his attractive designs don't impress you as art we're at another impasse.
Since all judgement, subjective and objective, is limited by the depth ones knowledge its never unbiased! |
Dear Mosin, isn't Oswald Mills yours?
david |
Dover, I'm referring to the later model called Parthenon 2025 on my old website that you linked to. You have a very rare beast there, I heard them a couple of times on my trips to Japan but never owned one. My friend had the SZ-1 and the American Sound to play next to the Parthenon.
It is sonically different from MS but its not only the motor, there are very many other differences. The materials are different, inverted bearing vs air bearing. The tone arm base setup, then there's the weight ratio between between base and platter which can also alter the sound. There probably are other less obvious design differences between the two. The later Parthenon 2025 wasn't bad sounding but used various gimmicks to try to achieve the same level as the original, the just didn't get far enough with it.
david
PS it's interesting that now twice in this thread people referred to our rooms at the shows as Lamm rooms, obviously I failed the marketing test! |
Dear Rauliruegas, I'm not getting into digital vs analog discussion here, I was merely pointing out the difference in our approach to high end audio and telling you that I can't supply the data that you're looking for, because its meaningless to me!
FYI, I distributed and sell state of the art digital I'm very aware of what it is. I will tell you if your Micro Seiki 5000 isn't KILLING the best and the most expensive digital out there then you should look to see where the problem is with your system and/or setup. |
Rauliruegas said, ""I invite any one of you try to think " out the box " and I'm sure you will improve a lot your enjoying MUSIC experiences trhough each one audio system."
Thank you for that Raul, I'll feel much better after throwing away my 927 and all my records, why didn't I think of that before.
-'Well this is a different perspective to analize that EMT item where we can't change facts only because that : " I like it "
I actually love it and that's a fact! I'm pretty sure Thuchan loves his too and apparently a whole lot of other people. You seem to be infatuated by my "I like it" and ignore everything else out there. Be my guest.
-'IMHO there that touted " holly grail " is a misunderstanding about and I think almost an " insult " to today TT designers.'
You can't be serious, are you? |
Peterayer, do you think that the Timeline is is more accurate than a hand held or built in strobe which in 927's case I find as accurate as my handheld ones? The 927 has brake control to slow it down or one can use a frequency controller to reduce or increase the speed, either way it holds its speed. The Timeline is fine if you have a wall nearby and you have to mark the location where you're pointing the laser at and if you touch and it moves you have to start again, I really don't see the advantage over a QUALITY strobe. |
Rauliruegas,
1- Please don't get me started on your Gladiator test, I've been containing myself. There are so many holes in your test method that I can make a fine sieve of! But life is too short...
2- The EMT is already an established and known commodity, my seal approval or otherwise changes nothing. The EMT has the track record and a deserved reputation of being one of the greatest record players ever made; people have even written a couple of books on it. You can say what you want about some arbitrary measurements but until you actually see and listen to one, sorry to say you really don't know what you're talking about. I wish my "liking it" would have that kind of positive affect on people. The credit here goes entirely to Mr. Franz and his EMT. I don't understand why you're trying so hard to put the 927 down.
3- The throwing out my LPs was a joke, relax and enjoy the conversation without getting obsessed there's enough of that out there.
david |
Lewm said; " The question is only whether all that machinery also results in "the best" sound. And that can be debated forever, as seen here."
Certainly one of the best, and I very much doubt that anyone who's owned/spent time with one or an experienced person with turntables and audio would be debating this way. The 927 is one the very few machines in the industry that has been accepted by many in the know as the Reference, of course until the audiophile thread here. |
Perfect case of "I like it" and digital vs analog for Raul, my thoughts put eloquently. |
Oops, the link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiDDJ-I47rA |
Thuchan, do you use the Mr. Dusch's glass or the original felt platter with your R80?
A couple of people commented that you haven't received any objective responses to your thread. I'm not sure what you were expecting besides another 927 user's experience. I've been at this game for over 30 years and learnt directly from the many bad and some good choices that I made throughout the years. At this point in time my ears and years of hands on experience is my most trusted objective and subjective tool. It doesn't matter what Raul or anyone else thinks important, in this case no measurements trump experience and knowledge.
I can't offer you the why the 927 sounds better in certain respects than basically any esoteric table ever made. What I hear unique in my 927 is the sense of space and ambience which flows and solidity of every note. The other great tables share the expansive tonal qualities of the 927 and like the MS 8000 might even have slightly more detailed bottom end but they lack 927's sonic majesty, which adds to the realism that you get with the 927. The only other tables I've heard with that capability is the American Sound and to some degree I think that AirForce One has that quality now, but I will confirm once I get mine next month.
As far as modern day manufacturers are concerned most don't have the engineering heritage or resources of EMT, Thorens, Micro Seiki, Garrard and whoever designed and produced the Goldmund Reference. Personally I find a 301 or 401 in a properly designed base more palatable and musically satisfying than 90% of the modern mega dollar tables I've heard. Specially some of the ones that have been highly praised and recommended by a certain famous magazine personality! |
Peterayer, please bear with me with some background before I get to answering your questions, I feel that its an important part of this conversation.
Nothing is perfect and judging any piece of equipment is always in the context of a system that has many variables including the stands, quality of mains and listening space. I know that I haven't addressed all the issues in my music chain so everything in that context. What I have done is move around a lot and tried enough different components in my own systems or those of my clients and friends to know what my music chain is or isn't doing right. My own two main systems have remained more or less the same for the past 10+ years so I'm very familiar with it. So always keep this in mind when people comment on equipment. its never in isolation. But there are certain characteristics that one can pick up if they know what to look for.
I have my standard reference arm/cartridge combination and almost the tables I refer to always have this arm/cartridge combination set up as standard. Unless provided by manufacturer, they all sit on massive vibraplane type lab tables but I don't use air with any of them.
The reference tables mentioned in my threads all perform at exceptionally high levels and don't sonically suffer in any obvious way, I really can't find any weaknesses in them. They don't have what a lot of people call vinyl sound. There's no thickness or ripeness like a Linn nor is it thin hyper detail sound ala Clearaudio, they're very neutral and balanced. Many listeners have expectation of overt character when it comes to lps and are initially thrown off by the neutrality of these players and even more surprising is the actual lp that has no "vinyl sound" like we always thought was there growing up with mass market systems. It takes them some time to get beyond that expectation. This is apart from the analogue vs digital conversation.
To your questions on the EMT 927, I don't hear any shortcomings that I can't attribute to other parts of my system. They're there with every source that I listen to including digital. I love the ergonomics of this table, its just joy to set up and use. For me 927's most unique sonic quality is what I mentioned above. Its the solidity with density and the way it brings forward the space and ambience of the recording. I'm not a reviewer and apologize for not having the vocabulary to express this in audiophile terminology. its not about bass, mids, highs, etc., or anything in isolation, its the total presentation that is very natural and real. That's the best compliment I can give any product. The American Sound has many of the same qualities and perhaps slightly more detailed sound.
Obviously I've only listened to a fraction of what's out there under controlled conditions. Mostly its been the mega buck unobtaniums that I have experience with. On the sane price level I like TW acoustics tables, very little to complain about, they sound excellent and considering the ridiculousness of high end audio these days are relatively good value . Given the availability of 301/401 Garrards and companies like Loricraft or Artisan Fidelity who refurbish and supply very good plinths, they can be considered current production and I highly recommend them. Again, aside from the excellent sound quality they offer value in today's market. I can recommend Loricraft's 501 as an excellent modern day idler, haven't heard Mosin's beauty but its on my radar and to try list. At the stupidly expensive end, I like the Vinci and of course the AirForce One, the upcoming, less expensive AirForce Two should be interesting too. Disclaimer, as a dealer I have vested interest in the AirForce tables. |
Thuchan, I have both platters too but I ended up using the original felt platter. The glass platter seems more detailed, I don't think that it really is though but its also somewhat harder sounding than the felt platter. Initially I thought that the felt platter was wooly compared to the glass one but then I realized that its musically more homogenous so I went back to it. Of course the choice is a matter of the reproduction chain and personal preference.
Do you mind if I ask what you have for the rest of your system? |
Thuchan, I think I found your blog, audio 16, love the Vox! |
Thuchan,
Not so humble! Bavarian Voice? They have an uncanny resemblance to Kevin Scott's Vox Olympians. The back story should be as interesting as the speakers themselves.
Good for you for designing your room. In my experience the listening space is a key component of the chain. A bad room will kill any sound system and a good one will elevate even a mediocre system to new heights. Here in the US, most people's listening rooms I visit are average at best and I have say lucky if they don't totally suck. Over the years I designed and built a number of different rooms for clients as well as a couple for myself. Of course starting from scratch with money no object budget creating a great listening space is relatively straight forward if you know what you're doing but setting up a decent listening space in an existing multifunction space within a budget is a very different challenge. I gained a lot of experience from my projects in manhattan, I totally understand your 2 year journey to build the room. I hope that you got most of it right by now.
The Toho arms look magnificent, a rare gem!
Glass or felt platter, like many of the choices we make has also to do with the rest of the chain and what direction we take tweaking that system. I can't judge your over all system sound from looking at the blog pictures but its enough for me to answer you differently now that I can see your MS setup. Initially I thought that you had the SX-8000 mk2 which was sonically more advanced than the original SX-8000. In this case I will say that you'll hear significant improvements with the AirForce One. You also introduced another variable going from inertia driven thread drive to motor driven platter, my guess is that you went this way to compensate for the FR-66. You gain some body and midrange energy at the expense of airiness and lower bass extension/definition. You might rethink the vpi setup if you replaced the FR with a 3012. Your blog is very informative to understand what you're comparing the R80 to. I thought that we're discussing subtleties and nuances here while in your system with those gorgeous speakers the R80 must be kicking Continuum and the FR-66'd MS butt big time! |
Thuchan said, "I understand why most analogue friends don't believe in the quality of digital reproduction. Nevertheless if you ever get deep into it the dCS stack it is an overwhelming alternative, or not?"
You're opening a can of worms with me Thuchan but since you asked for it here it is;
The problem isn't as much the quality of digital playback but rather the digital's qualities, see the link in above thread. You can massage it as much as want to but you're not going to change its nature. From day 1 the CD was designed with inherent limitations by the engineers and copyright paranoid media companies like Sony. The production chain is highly flawed and loose so the best that you accomplish is more tweaking and that wont change anything meaningful. CD is a truncated facsimile a much larger file. Upsample it, reclock it digital lens it, green bands, demagnetize, shark oil, snake oil or any other band-aid you want to attach it, it still remains the down sampled, i.e. reduced quality commercial product and DIGITAL. This blog article is tweaker's porn. What are you hearing? The clock? The up sampling? The power cord? the digital cables? Was the CD a direct transfer from analog master or was it an oversampled 24 bit remaster which is another tweak? and the list goes on. So your analysis of this clock is really analysis of whole lot of different variables that have nothing to do with the source. I'm sure that you realize that once you introduce your first "AUDIOPHILE" tweak to your system you have altered the parameters. Audiophile power cords all have overt characteristics and coloration, after you put one in, your system takes on a new character and that character gets stronger with everything additional cord from this point on every modification or tweak that you make is predicated on the power cord's overwhelming character and not your components. You're basically chasing your tail at this point on. Every cable and every tweak introduces another character that you end up offsetting with further tweaks.Its a never ending money pit.
Maybe this is where you and I differ in our final approach. For me, specially at these price points, if the equipment doesn't perform as advertised I'd get rid of it and replace it with one that works right. My philosophy is understanding the basics and nature of the subject to get the fundamentals right and only then one might make some adjustments to taste, like glass platter vs felt. In your shoes if I had spent years building a listening space and then have an expensive custom tailored speaker system installed, I'd never compromise it with resonators and traps. I'd spend that resource figuring out what went fundamentally wrong and fix that before applying patches that will ultimately lead to more aids. This is how I see the digital clock, another patch but not a cure. |
Thuchan said, "I understand why most analogue friends don't believe in the quality of digital reproduction. Nevertheless if you ever get deep into it the dCS stack it is an overwhelming alternative, or not?"
You're opening a can of worms with me Thuchan but since you asked for it here it is;
The problem isn't as much the quality of digital playback but rather the digital's qualities, see the link in above thread. You can massage it as much as want to but you're not going to change its nature. From day 1 the CD was designed with inherent limitations by the engineers and copyright paranoid media companies like Sony. The production chain is highly flawed and loose so the best that you accomplish is more tweaking and that wont change anything meaningful. CD is a truncated facsimile a much larger file. Upsample it, reclock it digital lens it, green bands, demagnetize, shark oil, snake oil or any other band-aid you want to attach it, it still remains the down sampled, i.e. reduced quality commercial product and DIGITAL. This blog article is tweaker's porn. What are you hearing? The clock? The up sampling? The power cord? the digital cables? Was the CD a direct transfer from analog master or was it an oversampled 24 bit remaster which is another tweak? and the list goes on. So your analysis of this clock is really analysis of whole lot of different variables that have nothing to do with the source. I'm sure that you realize that once you introduce your first "AUDIOPHILE" tweak to your system you have altered the parameters. Audiophile power cords all have overt characteristics and coloration, after you put one in, your system takes on a new character and that character gets stronger with everything additional cord from this point on every modification or tweak that you make is predicated on the power cord's overwhelming character and not your components. You're basically chasing your tail at this point on. Every cable and every tweak introduces another character that you end up offsetting with further tweaks.Its a never ending money pit.
Maybe this is where you and I differ in our final approach. For me, specially at these price points, if the equipment doesn't perform as advertised I'd get rid of it and replace it with one that works right. My philosophy is understanding the basics and nature of the subject to get the fundamentals right and only then one might make some adjustments to taste, like glass platter vs felt. In your shoes if I had spent years building a listening space and then have an expensive custom tailored speaker system installed, I'd never compromise it with resonators and traps. I'd spend that resource figuring out what went fundamentally wrong and fix that before applying patches that will ultimately lead to more aids. This is how I see the digital clock, another patch but not a cure. |
Thuchan,
Thanks for the detailed description of the room, very impressive! Power is a bitch in the cities. Many fine systems become unlistenable during the summer and now days since the last major brown out a few years ago in NY, the sound has never quite returned to what it used to be. Even a dedicated power system similar to yours doesn't improve things much in Manhattan, and to make matters worse we're 120v here. We moved to Utah about 1.5 years ago and fortunately we do have good power here. I haven't built the room yet but installed a separate mains transformer for the system and each component is on a separate line with its own dedicated breaker. Just started putting the systems back together so a long way to go.
I'm not at all anti-digital it's the medium of our times and I spend a good amount of time listing to it. Even if its not something that I love I have spent a lot of time and money figuring things out, there;s no turning back from it. I'm not a dCS or Burmeister fan. I don't mind dCS's top DACs but I find their up-sampling games and external clock gimmicky and degrading. The 2nd tier DACs aren't anything to get excited about imo. Further I find their transport is sheiße,
Back to the thread and your justified comment; Regarding the Fidelity Research 66s I think we have two groups of Audiophiles. Those who know this arm pretty well, who are owning the matching table and wo did build it up perfectly and some others they might outnumber the first group
Just so that we're clear;
http://www.pbase.com/ddk/image/152083798
Not set up yet but I have spent many ours listening to the combination.
This is probably my last post here, but I would love to hear more on your speakers and exchange experiences.
rgds, david karmeli |
Dear Tuchan,
All I remember from my high school German is the survival vocabulary, somehow you never forget it.
I found what I liked a few years back and haven't found anything better and no its not Meitner. I'm not sure what you mean about boosting the dcs equipment to optimum. The recorded CD is all it can be, up sampling, adding dither, reclocking is just adding artifacts you can't improve or change that CD. Your DAC is what it is, the chip, the algorithm and the output stage isn't going to change. Master clock in a playback system such as this is pointless and a marketing gimmick. You're only adding salt & pepper. The purpose of master clock is synching multiple digital sources to multiple output channels. Here you have a single source, your transport going into the DAC, reclocking is only a game, what I'm surprised is that you find two clocks better than one, so you're reclocking the reclocked signal that doesn't need to sync with anything and liking it; that should already tell you that something is way off somewhere else.
I use the FR66s primarily with heavy Ikeda cartridges like the 9 supremo & muss. My main problem with this arm is its silver wiring, I might get it rewired one of these days and see if I like it any better. I'm spoilt by the SME-3012, love how it sounds and the ease of setup is better than any other arm that I ever tried. I can align and set up any cartridge within 10 minutes on the SME and fine tune it with music in less than half hour. The FR is a lot more time consuming for me to get it right and even then I find the 3012 sonically superior with most of the cartridges that I use.
SX-8000, how do you tune it. I understand the difference you get going from thread/inertia drive to motor drive, did you do anything else to yours?
I see that you have a Neumann cartridge, you lucked out they sound incredible, now you need to find their tonearm. |
