And the guys with their Thorens say the same thing. And the guys with their Technics SP10. And with their Garrards. The modern tables ALL missed the boat. Yet they come over to a true, modern state of the art table in a cost no object system and walk away shaking their heads.
I could say all I want that my 67 Camaro will take a new Corvette on a twisty road. Or my Boss 302 will take a Viper. But wishing and dreaming does not make it so. Likewise, this thread is full of wishing and dreaming.
Not all super expensive current turntables are great. Many are jokes. Well, most are jokes at the crazy price they ask. But some current great ones really are great, and none of the idlers or belt/idlers are going to touch the very best. True, lots of jokers are making current turntables. Know-nothing experimenters. Audio is unfortunately more full of these guys than ever. They proliferate in the turntable, tonearm, cable, and speaker markets. But, again, the few really good modern turntables are not going to be bettered by the old stuff. |
.....And the guys with their Lencos, and the guys with their Micro-Seikis, .........on and on with the great discoveries of how great the old stuff was. Funny all the best sounding turntable makers who knew the most went out of business. Bad luck I guess.
Definitely the love of these old things with all their moving parts has nothing to do with that they allow the owner to rebuild them and become "one with them", that they are nostalgia inducing, and that they are often unobtainium. Silly of me to wonder that. |
Yes, Tbg, I've only been designing in audio for 30 years, only tested (analytically and listening)about 150 turntables, only designed several dozen audio products, so I bet I would throw away everything I've learned upon having another Lenco!
Funny thing, for even the very worst products I've tested I've had people tell me that they are the absolute best they've ever heard.
If they make you happy, whether they be Lenco, Garrard, Thorens, Technics SP10, or others, fantastic. Pleasure is what it is all about. Even inanimate objects that have no function other than adornment (jewelry grade diamonds for instance) give folks pleasure. But posting that nothing has equaled a Lenco is really over the top.
Cool representation of a gone by era, surely.
Fun to own, definitely.
Emotional attachment after one finds one and fixes it up, unquestionably.
Lots of personal feelings and pheromones running around about it due to the above attachment, certainly.
And, enough noise to mask a lot of detail that the very best modern table and arm easily uncover? Bet your life on it. |
Tbg, you may very well have the same opinion if you heard an array of turntables here, moving the same arm and cartridge (not just the same model, the same serial numbers!) in a system where I can demo any number of really great (and using various technologies) speakers and headphones. At the very least it might cause you to think a bit about your position. What part of the country are you in?
But this is not a case of one-up-manship. It's a case of it not being fair to begin with. This is my job 7 days a week. Designing and testing is part of that job. And if I am curious, I but what I am curious about to test different ideas/technologies/execution levels.
What do I like? Goldmund Reference is nice. Linn (pre DC motor) had great speed stability. Basis Inspiration is my cup of tea.
For old stuff, I like the Garrard 301 best. Easy to listen to, cuts out the harshest part of the record. But, there is a price for always sounding rich and easy. That's a coloration that does not allow the deepest levels of detail to come through. It's beautiful, perfect condition, a really cool working antique that reminds me of times I often feel I liked better. But I know what it is and is not. And it is not anywhere near state of the art. Nor are my other antique turntables. But I can admit that and still love them. I find in audio, when someone loves something they usually say "THIS IS BEST". Yes, shouting indicated on purpose.
My goal may be different than most folks. I am looking to get exactly what is on the record. No smoother, no rougher. No more bass, no less bass. My philosophy is that this will result in the most clear sound with the best records. Some will fall on the thinner side, some the thicker side. And the best will shine gloriously.
Part of the goal is that except during testing I do not want to be listening to the components, I want to listen to the music. In my experience, the lower distortion the components, the easier that is to do.
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Replying to Peterayer:
Peter: Omsed, Do you have a preference for drive type or arm type? I'm curious about which modern top tables you do like.
Omsed: After extensive comparisons the best sound I have heard is off of a belt drive turntable. However, that does not mean I am stuck on belts. Even with technogies that seem to defy physics a bit, I am all ears and always expecting revolutionary performance, in some regard, for everything I plug in and am ready to listen to. I'm always expecting that the next thing I try will beat my own designs in some regard. That certainly keeps me from adopting the attitude "anything not done here can't be good". That N.I.H. (Not Invented Here) attitude is very prevalent in audio, and I rail against it. So is the "I don't own it so mine blows it away" attitude prevalent.
Peter: Have you heard the Dobbins Beat, Wave Kinetics NVS, Rockport direct-drives, Walker, Basis, SME, Continuum, Kronos or TechDas? I'm sure there are others.
Omsed: No on Dobbins, Yes on Wave K., yes on Rockport, yes on Walker (many times and locations including here), Yes on Basis (many times and locations including here), yes on Continuum, Kronos, and TechDas.
When you say say "I'm sure there are others", certainly over 100 in my own systems. Merrill, VPI (many models), SOTA (all models except Comet), Kuzma (many), Rega (all), Versa (both models), Forsell, Goldmund Reference and Studio, Micro-Seiki (many), Thorens 124, 125, 126, Garrard 301, 401, Linn Valhalla, Linn with Trampolin and Linngo, AR original, AR newer version, Oracle (many), Transrotors, JA Michelle.......now that I've counted that starter list I see it is well over 100, and I have not even gotten into a lot of current brands. But in 3 decades of business it adds up. Arms over 100 also.
One thing I've learned: design TYPE, of any product, (i.e., gimbal bearing, knife-edge bearing, unipivot, belt drive, direct drive) most often tells little about the final performance. It's the design QUALITY and execution QUALITY (sorry for caps, not shouting, but don't know how to italicise) that matter most. The best designers, the best physicists, their minds are usually very open about new or different ideas, and rarely say one way is the absolute best way to do it. It gets me crazy on these forums when folks have to say things like "this is the only way"....", "horns are the only way", "Horns are all bad", "ONLY Vandersteen and Thiel speakers are good (an above dogmatic poster said that in a thread), "only direct drive", "only idler"....."
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The open-mindedness is astounding:
ttweights: "Yes there is no replacement for torque and direct coupling"
I guess no further thought required! |
Thucan, we could talk for hours and hours and hours and hours about different tables and their sound with the same arms and cartridges - which is the way I make EVERY comparison. Then you or someone else could say that I did not use the right arm due to synergies of tables/arms (which is a far, far overblown thing). This could spawn more hours and hours and hours of conversations.
In the end, few have tested so many combinations as scientifically (in methodology) as I have. Let's remember, nearly all the tables were in my place, my system.
Additionally, I am looking for, and devising experiments for, the most direct players and arms in terms of getting what is off the record with as little editorialization as possible. Just talking about those experiments would take pages and pages. It would be fantastic fun for me to go through all this. But the time.....the endless posts describing things, just to have some guy with one year of experience in analog having owned 2 tables start debating with me. It's a losing proposition on forums.
I'll tell you my purpose for being here: to have something to do during a coffee break, and to try to point out that it is very hard to say that there is just one correct answer.
Most forums are full of guys who have heard 10 things or fewer (of the component type being discussed) and are declaring an absolute best, a winner, a black and white conclusion. I'm trying to make folks aware that even with many many times the experience, having a strong technical background to understand what is happening technically, having the best test equipment, and devoting a lifetime to it, things are still complex and declaring a single winner is not clear cut. Even declaring a winner on the best drive system is not clear cut. I'm still buying things with different drive technologies to test....looking for some potential advantage to a particular drive technology that I don't really believe in.
A teacher used to say to us "open your mind, something might drop in". I'm here trying to do that.
I know a guy who have never raced cars. Does not follow car racing. He's never excelled at a high amateur level of any type of motor sports competition. But he feels he has a gift for the "feel" of vehicles, so he feels he could be a NASCAR race winner if he got some experience. Now, I feel NASCAR oval racing boring and the skill is not apparent to me. BUT, I know that there is a very high degree of skill needed. It is just not so obvious to me when guys are going "round and round". I know my good friend is deluded.
This is the same way I feel when I see a consumer saying "This is the best (technology, or model, design) ever made" when I know that even with education, design experience at high tech levels, then a career of decades doing this, I can't make such blanket statements. |
Thucan, you said "you also stated that the Garrard 301 is one of yor likes."
Yes, that's true. But when I say "like" it is totally different than my saying something is state of the art. "Like" means I find it pleasant, easy to listen to, does not hurt my ears.
As far as being "great" or "state of the art", it is way, way far away from that. It is missing much too much detail and layering to be anywhere near state of the art. When I put my best turntable in after the Garrard I end up saying "Wow, WHERE did all that depth, detail, layering, low level sonic cues come from?" I find no advantage in any area whatsover (dynamics, drive, stability of tone, actual tonality, decay, attack, convincing of the real event ability) over my best turntable. But it is nice, and I would way rather listen to it than many current turntables.
The very, very best (and that does not mean the very most expensive) turntables have moved forward, but the whole market has not IMO. There are plenty of very poor turntables out there, even costing as much as $10,000 or more, and I would rather listen to the Garrard or SP10 than any of those poor ones. |
Going to try to be bowing out from the forums now guys. I see that they are addictive to me! Wow, it takes a lot of time to try to be clear, and I have my real job, research and design to do.
Try to remember, when you think you know it all start looking for your mistakes! You'll find them. When I run an experiment and results turn out different than my expectations I get more excited than when I'm right. When I'm wrong it is a huge opportunity to delve into the science and experiment to find out just why I'm wrong......and then I'll know a lot more, that = excitement and progress! |
